Face The Nation: Byron York, Shawna Thomas, Rachael Bade, Michael Crowley

OKAY. THIS IS NOT THE ONLY HEARING, IN FACT, THERE ARE MANY INVESTIGATIONS, THERE ARE MANY SUBPOENAS THAT HAVE BEEN ISSUED TO THE ADMINISTRATION. AND IT SEEMS THAT REALLY YOU'RE SEEING A HEAD- TO- HEAD CLASH BETWEEN THE CONGRESSIONAL BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT AND THE WHITE HOUSE ON MANY FRONTS. IS THE REFUSAL TO COMPLY WORRISOME TO YOU THAT THIS IS SETTING A PRECEDENT THAT UNDERMINES THE OVERSIGHT CAPABILITIES AND CHARGE OF CONGRESS ?>> NEW YORK IT DOES NOT. THIS HAPPENED WITH EVERY ADMINISTRATION. IN FACT, YOU KNOW, DURING THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION. THERE WAS A LOT OF PUSHBACK. THERE WAS ALWAYS A SLOW WALK OF INFORMATION REQUESTED AND SOMETIMES OF RESCHEDULING OF WITNESSES. THIS IS SOMETHING THAT GOES ON BETWEEN THE ADMINISTRATION AND THE CONGRESSIONAL BRANCH AT ALL TIMES. I AM VERY MUCH IN FAVOR OF CONGRESSIONAL OVERSIGHT, NO MATTER WHO IS IN THE WHITE HOUSE. WE HAVE THAT PROPER ROLE. THERE IS A GIVE AND TAKE BETWEEN THE TWO. ESPECIALLY WITH REGARD TO WHAT WE'RE SEEING FROM THE CHAIRMAN. IF THE CHAIRMAN WOULD ACTUALLY ENGAGE AND FIND A WAY TO FIND ACCOMMODATION, OFFER ACCOMMODATION, DO THE THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN DONE IN THE PAST HISTORICALLY INSTEAD OF RUSHING TO DO A CON TELL THE OR RUSHING TO A PRESS RELEASE OR RUSHING TO MAKE AN ASSUMPTION, THEN I THINK WE COULD GET TO THE OVERSIGHT THAT WE NEED TO HAVE ON THIS .>> BRENNAN: CONGRESSMAN, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME THIS MORNING. WE TURN NOW TO CONGRESSMAN ERIC SWALWELL WHO JOINS THUS MORNING FROM MASON CITY, IOWA, WHERE HE'S CAMPAIGNING FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINATION. WELCOME TO " FACE THE NATION ," CONGRESSMAN. I KNOW YOU ARE -->> GOOD MORNING. THANK YOU .>> BRENNAN: YOU ARE VERY MUCH INVOLVED WITH THESE HEARINGS AND THESE INVESTIGATIONS. LET'S START THERE BEFORE WE TALK ABOUT YOUR 2020 PLATFORM. THIS HEARING THAT WE WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT THAT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL DID NOT SHOW UP FOR, IN THE CENTER OF THE ROOM ONE OF YOUR DEMOCRATIC COLLEAGUES PUT A BUCKET OF KENTUCKY FRIED CHICKEN AND AN ACTUAL CHICKEN. IT OBVIOUSLY GOT A LOT OF PRESS ATTENTION, BUT IS THIS REALLY THE TONE THAT DEMOCRATS WANT TO SET ?>> MARGARET, THE TONE WE WANT TO SET IS TO HIGHLIGHT THAT AMERICA WAS ATTACKED BY THE RUSSIANS IN 2016. THE BASIC FUNCTION OF A GOVERNMENT IS TO PROTECT ITS PEOPLE FROM A FOREIGN ATTACK, AND WE NEEDED THE ATTORNEY GENERAL TO COME TO CONGRESS, A SEPARATE BRANCH OF POWER, AND TELL US WHAT THE RUSSIANS DID, WHO THEY WORKED WITH, AND WHAT WE COULD DO NEXT, AND HE CHOSE NOT TO SHOW UP. THERE ARE GOING TO BE CONSEQUENCES FOR THAT. THAT WAS HIGHLIGHTED BY ANOTHER COLLEAGUE OF MINE, BUT THE BIGGER ISSUE IS HE DIDN'T SHOW UP .>> BRENNAN: HE DIDN'T SHOW UP. THEY ARGUE OVER THESE PROCEDURAL ARGUMENTS IN REGARD TO HAVING OTHER LAWYERS, STAFF LAWYERS QUESTION ALONGSIDE A CONGRESSMAN LIKE YOURSELF. FOR YOU, YOU THINK THIS IS JUST A REFUSAL TO COMPLY BECAUSE OF WHAT ?>> YOU KNOW, MARGARET, I DON'T CARE IF WE ASKED HIM TO MEET US HERE IN MAYSON CITY TO TELL US WHAT THE RUSSIANS DID, WE ARE A SEPARATE BRANCH OF POWER. WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO ASK SO WE CAN PROTECT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. AGAIN, I THINK IS MORE ABOUT NOT WANTING TO PLAY AN AWAY GAME. HE HAD A HOME GAME WITH THE SENATE WITH CHAIRMAN GRAHAM. HE DIDN'T DO SO WHILE THERE. IT LOOKS LIKE HE LIED TO CONGRESS. AND HE DIDN'T WANT TO COME THE NEXT DAY WHERE HE WOULD FACE EVEN MORE TOUGH QUESTIONS. AND AGAIN, THE BIGGER PICTURE HERE, IF WE ARE NOT ABLE TO PROTECT OUR PEOPLE FROM A FOREIGN ATTACK, DO WE REALLY ACTUALLY HAVE A GOVERNMENT THAT CAN DEFEND US .>> BRENNAN: YOU SAID-- YOU SEEM TO AGREE WITH SPEAKER PELOSI THAT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL LIED. SPECIFICALLY HERE, WHAT IS IT THAT YOU ARE TAKING ISSUE WITH ?>> WELL, FIRST, HE PREJUDGED THE REPORT BEFORE HE EVEN BECAME ATTORNEY GENERAL. I THINK HE SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN CONFIRMED, BUT ONCE CONFIRMED HE SHOULD HAVE RECUSED. SECOND, HE FALSELY ACCUSED THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OF SPYING ON THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN. THIRD, HE MISCHARACTERIZED THAT THE PRESS CONFERENCE AND TO CONGRESSMAN CRIST WHAT BOB MUELLER'S VIEW WAS ON THE REPORT AND FINALRY, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, HE MISSED THE DEADLINE LAST WEEK TO GIVE US THE FULL MUELLER REPORT. THERE HAS TO BE CONSEQUENCES FOR THAT. FOR THAT REASON, I THINK YOU HAVE MOVE THIS OBSTRUCTOR OUT OF THE WAY. I RECOMMEND THAT WE IMPEACH ATTORNEY GENERAL BARR SO WE CAN GET THE INFORMATION WE NEED TO PROTECT OUR COUNTRY .>> BRENNAN: DID YOU READ ALL THE MUELLER REPORT ?>> YES. THERE IS ONE EIGHTH OF IT THAT I'M IN THE ALLOWED TO READ THEY SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO READ .>> BRENNAN: WELL, YOUR LEADERSHIP HAS THE ABILITY TO READ IT, BUT WE MOW THERE IS A REASON FOR THAT OBJECTION. BUT I WANT TO GET TO THE POINT OF THE SWEEPING AND SYSTEMATIC RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE THAT IS LAID OUT IN THE REPORT IS SUBSTANTIATED. BUT I KNOW YOU HAVE BEEN TALKING BECAUSE YOU ARE ALSO IN AN INTELLIGENCE ROLE ON THAT HOUSE COMMITTEE. YOU SAID A NUMBER OF THINGS THAT I WANT TO QUOTE BACK TO YOU UP UNTIL THIS POINT. YOU SAID WHEN YOU WERE ASKED IN JANUARY, DO YOU BELIEVE THE PRESIDENT RIGHT NOW HAS BEEN AN AGENT OF THE RUSSIANS. YOU SAID YES. YOU WERE ASKED AGAIN AT THE END OF THAT MONTH BY A QUESTIONER, I'M STILL NOT HEARING ANY EVIDENCE THAT HE'S AN AGENT OF RUSSIA. YOU SAID, " I THINK IT'S PRETTY CLEAR. IT'S ALMOST HIDING IN PLAIN SIGHT ." THE MUELLER REPORT DID NOT SUBSTANTIATE CONSPIRACY OR COORDINATION WITH RUSSIA. DO YOU REGRET PREJUDGING THE OUTCOME ?>> NO, ACTUALLY, I THINK I SHOULD HAVE BEEN LOUDER CONSIDERING THE TOP OF YOUR SHOW AND YOU TALKED ABOUT THE PHONE CALL BETWEEN VLADIMIR PUTIN AND THE PRESIDENT AT THE PRESIDENT'S REQUEST. AND MARGARET, THE MUELLER TEAM WAS NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO LOOK AT THE FINANCIAL ENTANGLEMENTS. SO I THINK IT'S HARD TO DRAW A CONCLUSION ABOUT CONSPIRACY .>> BRENNAN: YOU STILL BELIEVE HE'S AN AGENT OF RUSSIA ?>> I THINK HE ACTS ON THEIR BEHALF. AGAIN, I THINK TEN YEARS FROM NOW WE ARE GOING TO LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED THIS WEEK AND WE'RE GOING TO SAY, ARE YOU KIDDING ME? AFTER RUSSIA ATTACKED THE UNITED STATES, AFTER THE SPECIAL COUNSEL LAID OUT 200 PAGES OF LINKS BETWEEN THE RUSSIANS AND THE TRUMPS AND HUH THEY TRIED TO HELP HIM, OUR PRESIDENT, INSTEAD OF CALLING THE RUSSIAN PRESIDENT AND SITTING, DON'T DO THIS AGAIN, HE TALKED TO HIM FOR AN HOUR AND A HALF AND SAID THE RUSSIAN PRESIDENT WAS SMILING. THAT IS JUST NUTTY, MARGARET. THAT IS PUTTING THE RUSSIANS' INTERESTS AHEAD OF THE UNITED STATES' INTERESTS .>> BRENNAN: THIS ALONG WITH OTHER INVESTIGATIONS, THE ADMINISTRATION IS PUSHING BACK ON. GIVEN THE LEVEL OF PUSHBACK, DO YOU THINK THAT THIS IS STIRRING UP ENOUGH FRUSTRATION AMONG DEMOCRATS THAT THEY MIGHT CHANGE THE JUDGMENT AND GO AHEAD WITH IMPEACHMENT? DO YOU SUPPORT IMPEACHMENT OF THE PRESIDENT ?>> THIS PRESIDENT HAS TAKEN US DOWN THAT ROAD. IT'S MAYBE THE ONLY ROAD TO SAVE THE COUNTRY. BUT RIGHT NOW, YOU KNOW, I'LL TELL YOU WITH THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, I THINK WE SHOULD MOVE TO IMPEACH HIM FIRST. I'M THE FATHER OF A TWO YEAR OLD AND A SIX MONTH OLD .���������������������������� WE'RE GOING THROUGH THE TERRIBLE TWOS. WHEN MY SON MISBEHAVES, WE TAKE A TOY AWAY. WE KNOW IF WE DON'T DO, THAT HE'S ONLY GOING TO GET WORSE. WE HAVE A REALLY BAD KID AT THE WHITE HOUSE, AND UNLESS WE START SHOWING THAT THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES FOR THEIR ACTIONS, HE'S ONLY GOING TO GET WORSE AND THE NEXT KID, THE NEXT PRESIDENT, IS GOING THE LOOK AT WHAT WE DID NOW AND JUDGE THEIR ACTIONS BASED ON WHETHER THERE WERE CONSEQUENCES OR NOT. SO WE HAVE TO START TAKING THIS PRESIDENT SERIOUSLY AND SPEAKING THE ONLY LANGUAGE THEY KNOW, WHICH IS FORCE AND CONSEQUENCE .>>

SO YOU'RE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT. DAY ONE, MORE SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA ?>> YES. BUT ALSO DAY ONE IS TAKE THE OATH AND GO ON A GLOBAL AFFIRMATION TOUR TO ASSURE OUR NATO ALLIES AND OTHERS THAT WE ARE STILL WITH THEM AND WE NEED THEM TO BE A CHECK ON RUSSIA .>>

CONGRESSMAN, MORE TO TALK ABOUT WITH YOU, BUT WE'LL HAVE THE LEAVE IT THERE .>> I LOOK FORWARD TO THAT .>> BRENNAN: PICK THAT CONVERSATION UP ANOTHER TIME. WE WILL BE BACK WITH OUR POLITICAL PANEL .>> BRENNAN: WE TURN NOW TO OUR POLITICAL PANEL, BYRON YORK IS THE CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT FOR THE WASHINGTON EXAMINER, SHAWNA THOMAS IS THE WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF FOR VICE NEWS, RACHAEL BADE COVERS CONGRESS FOR THE " WASHINGTON POST ," AND MICHAEL CROWLEY IS THE WHITE HOUSE AND NATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR AT POLITICO, NOT FOR LONG, THOUGH, BECAUSE CONGRATULATION, MICHAEL, I KNOW YOU'RE HEADED TO A NEW ASSUME FOR THE ANY TIMES TO COVER THE WHITE HOUSE .>> THANK YOU .>> BRENNAN: AND WE HOPE TO HAVE YOU BACK AT THIS TABLE. BYRON, GOOD THE SEE YOU .>> THANK YOU. THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE SAYS THAT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL LIED UNDER OATH. DID HE ?>> I DON'T THINK SO. I THINK YOU COULD-- IF YOU LOOK AT THE TEXT OF WHAT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL SAID IN THAT EXCHANGE WITH REPRESENTATIVE CRIST, YOU PLAYED IT EARLIER, IF YOU LOOK AT THE TEXT, BILL BARR GAVE AN ACCURATE AND VERY LAWYERLY ANSWER. WE'VE SEEN THAT IN CONGRESS BEFORE. HE WAS ASKED ABOUT ROBERT MUELLER'S TEAM, ABOUT A NEWS STORY THAT APPEARED IN THE " NEW YORK TIMES" RIGHT BEFORE ABOUT MEMBERS OF MUELLER'S TEAM HAD TOLD ASSOCIATES THAT THEY WERE UNHAPPY WITH THE REPORT. SPECIFICALLY THEY SAID THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT MUELLER HIMSELF THOUGHT. BILL BARR SAID, LOOK, I TALKED TO MUELLER HIMSELF. I DON'T KNOW WHAT HIS TEAM SAID, AND THAT'S WHY I ANSWERED THE QUESTION. HE WAS NOT FORTHCOMING. IT WAS NARROW, BUT IT WAS NOT A LIE .>> BRENNAN: BUT THE LETTER FROM THE SPECIAL COUNSEL THAT BECAME PUBLIC THIS WEEK UNDERSCORES, IT SEEMS, AT LEAST SOME LEVEL OF DISAGREEMENT BETWEEN THE SPECIAL COUNSEL AND THE ATTORNEY GENERAL IN THE PUBLIC'S PORTRAYAL. HOW DO WE MAKE SENSE OF THAT ?>> I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANY DOUBT ABOUT THAT. I THINK BARR WOULD SAY, LOOK, THERE WAS INTENSE PUBLIC PRESSURE WHEN THE REPORT WAS SENT OVER TO THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT ON MARCH 22ND. I HAD TO GET SOMETHING OUT. SO IN A COUPLE OF DAYS, I SUMMARIZE THE REPORT'S PRINCIPLE CONCLUSIONS. I DIDN'T CHARACTERIZE THE WHOLE REPORT. BASICALLY HE SAID THAT MUELLER HAD FOUND THERE WAS THE EVIDENCE DID NOT SUBSTANTIATE A CHARGE OF CONSPIRACY, AND THAT HE CHOSE NOT TO EXONERATE THE PRESIDENT ON OBSTRUCTION. AND HE INCLUDED THAT IN HIS LETTER. SO, LOOK, I THINK A TWO- PAGE LETTER IS NOT GOING TO CHARACTERIZE A 448- PAGE REPORT .>> WHAT THIS UNDERSCORES, AND WHAT BARR IS HEARING IN THE SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE, IS THE NEED TO HEAR FROM MUELLER. THERE WERE SO MANY QUESTIONS THAT ATTORNEY GENERAL BARR GOT THAT DAY, AND WHAT I WAS STRUCK BY THEY WERE ASKING HIM THE CHARACTERIZE ROBERT MUELLER'S THOUGHTS. THERE WAS EVEN ONE TIME WHERE HE SAYS, I DON'T WANT TO CHARACTERIZE BOB'S THOUGHTS ABOUT A QUESTION FROM A DEMOCRAT. IF ROBERT MUELLER IS WILLING TO SPEAK TO THE SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE, TO A HOUSE COMMITTEE, THAT WHOLE THING, HE CAN ANSWER SOME OF THESE QUESTIONS THAT BARR GOT. THAT CAN HELP FIGURE OUT, YOU KNOW, WAS IT A LIE? WAS IT NOT A LIE? ALL OF THOSE THINGS ACTUALLY SORT OF REST ON BOB MUELLER .>> ALSO, IF YOU'RE EXPLAINING, YOU'RE LOSING, SO MAYBE BARR CAN GO OUT THERE AND TRY TO EXPLAIN, WELL, I THOUGHT THE QUESTION WAS THIS OR THAT, BUT DEMOCRATS FEEL THEY DEFINITELY HAVE ENOUGH IN TERMS OF SAYING HE LIED. AND IT'S NOT JUST THAT COMMENT, YOU KNOW, HE HAS NOW IGNORED TWO SUBPOENAS FROM THE HOUSE DEMOCRATS. HE DID NOT SHOW UP AT A HEARING THAT HE WAS SUPPOSED TO ATTEND LAST WEEK. AND THEY HAVE A WHOLE LIST OF GRIEVANCES WITH HIM. SO WE'RE GOING TO SEE THEM, IT'S INTERESTING WITH YOUR INTERVIEW WITH SWALWELL, HE TALKED ABOUT IMPEACHING BARR .>> IT WAS A QUESTION ABOUT IMPEACHING THE PRESIDENT .>> THERE IS A DEBATE, DO WE HOLD BARR IN CONTEMPT OF CONGRESS. THEY ARE GOING TO DO THAT. IT'S A MATTER OF WHEN, NOT IF, BUT IF THEY IMPEACH BARR, DOES THAT MAKE IT HARDER FOR THEM TO ONE DAY IMPEACH THE PRESIDENT. THERE WAS A PRIVATE CONVERSATION WITH SOME JUDICIARY COMMITTEE DEMOCRATS LAST WEEK WHERE THEY ACTUALLY DEBATED THAT VERY THING. CAN THEY IMPEACH BOTH. AND IF THEY ARE GOING TO IMPEACH ANYONE, THEY'RE GOING TO WANT THE IMPEACH THE PRESIDENT, NOT BAR, SO IT'S SORT OF INTERESTING, HOW THEY HANDLE THAT .>> ANY ATTEMPT TO IMPEACH IS DEAD ON ARRIVAL IN THE REPUBLICAN- CONTROLLED SENATE. SO WHAT DOES THIS ACCOMPLISH. TO PEOPLE AT HOME IT SOUNDS LIKE MORE FIGHTING IN WASHINGTON. SO I THINK WITH THE MUELLER REPORT, THE DEMOCRATS HAD A CALL RIGHT AFTER THE MUELLER REPORT CAME OUT. THE MESSAGE WAS STILL THE SAME. DO NOT TALK ABOUT IMPEACHMENT. WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT INVESTIGATING THE PRESIDENT. WE'LL KEEP INVESTIGATING HIM AND SEE WHERE IT LEADS. BUT THERE WAS A TURNING POINT I FEEL LIKE LAST WEEK WITH A LOT OF DEMOCRATS WHEN THE DEMOCRAT CAME OUT AND SAID, I'M GOING TO IGNORE ALL THE SUBPOENAS. THAT INFURIATED A WHOLE BUNCH OF DEMOCRATIC INVESTIGATORS IN THE HOUSE. AND THAT MORE THAN THE MUELLER REPORT I WOULD SAY HAS MADE MORE PEOPLE START TALKING ABOUT IMPEACHMENT. PELOSI IS STILL PUSHING BACK ON THAT, SHE IS FEELING A LOT OF HEAT FROM HER MEMBERS, WHICH IS WHY I THINK YOU SEE HER RHETORIC BECOME SHARPER AND SHARPER OF BEING WORSE THAN NIXON. SHE'S GOING TO HAVE THE FIND A WAY TO SORT OF CALM THE CAUCUS DOWN IF SHE DOESN'T WANT TO DO IMPEACHMENT. THERE ARE A LOT MORE CLASS TALKING ABOUT IT .>> BRENNAN: MICHAEL, IS IT A FAIR QUESTION, AND ITSELF A QUESTION I PUT TO THE SECRETARY OF STATE, BUT IS IT A FAIR QUESTION TO ASK WHY THE PRESIDENT DIDN'T BRING THIS UP WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN GIVEN THAT IT HAS BEEN DISCUSSED, THEY HAVE CONFRONTED HIM IN SOME WAY THROUGH OTHER CHANNELS? IN THE WAKE OF THE MUELLER REPORT, SHOULD WE HAVE EXPECTED THE PRESIDENT TO HAVE PUSHED PUTIN ?>> WELL, I WOULDN'T HAVE EXPECTED IT BECAUSE AT THIS POINT WE KNOW THAT THE PRESIDENT JUST DOESN'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT. THIS HE DOESN'T WANT THE PRIORITIZE IT IN HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH PUTIN. AND I FIND IT, ALTHOUGH, YOU KNOW, STRANGE ON SOME LEVEL, ALSO UTTERLY UNSURPRISING. AND WHAT'S MORE STRIKING TO ME IS IN GENERAL, THE PRESIDENT'S TONE TOWARD PUTIN IS JUST COMPLETELY UNCHANGED. SO IN OTHER WORDS, IT'S NOT THAT PARTICULAR POINT ABOUT ELECTION INTERFERENCE AND IS HE STILL PUSHING THAT. IT'S THAT HE STILL IS TALKING ABOUT TRYING TO HAVE A GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH RUSSIA, SPEAKING IN GENERALLY POSITIVE TERMS ABOUT PUTIN, KIND OF DESCRIBING THIS KIND OF BON AMI THAT THEY BETWEEN EACH OTHER, THIS LIGHT RAPPORT, JOKING AROUND, PUTIN WAS SMILING THROUGH THE TELEPHONE, THAT STRANGE FORMULATION THE PRESIDENT USED. I DO WONDER IF THERE IS SOME PART OF TRUMP THAT FEELS ALL THEE THE RUSSIA STUFF IS BEHIND US AND I CAN GET BACK TO WORK ON THIS RELATIONSHIP WITH PUTIN. NOW, CONGRESS HAS REALLY TIED HIS HANDS AND MADE IT DIFFICULT FOR HIM TO CHANGE U. S. POLICY. THERE IS STILL A LOT TRUMP CAN DO IN TERMS OF BUILDING RELATIONS WITH PUTIN, GIVING PUTIN MORE FREEDOM AROUND THE WORLD TO ACT, HIS COMMENTS ABOUT VENEZUELA, ALTHOUGH HE SAID ONE THING VERBALLY AND ANOTHER THING ON TWITTER, AS MIKE POMPEO POINTED OUT, HE CAN STILL MAKE IT EASIER FOR PUTIN TO OPERATE IN VENEZUELA AND ELSEWHERE, PLACES LIKE SYRIA AND THE MIDDLE EAST, IF HE WANTS TO. SO I WOULD SAY BEYOND THAT PARTICULAR QUESTION, WHICH IS VERY IMPORTANT, I'M WATCHING TO SEE WHETHER TRUMP NOW FEELS LIKE HE CAN RESUME THIS EFFORT TO DEVELOP SOME KIND OF RELATIONSHIP. THE LAST THING I'LL SAY VERY QUICKLY, IS POMPEO MEETING WITH THE RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER TO " T" UP A POTENTIAL TRUMP- PUTIN MEETING AT THE G- 20 SUMMIT IN JAPAN? THAT'S POSSIBLE .>> BRENNAN: WE HAVE TO TYKE A BREAK AND I'LL GIVE YOU THAT THOUGHT ON THE OTHER SIDE OF IT. STAY WITH US. WE'LL BE BACK IN A MOMENT .>> BRENNAN: WE'RE BACK NOW WITH OUR POLITICAL PANEL. BYRON, START WITH YOU. I CUT YOU OFF BEFORE THE BREAK .>> WELL ...>> BRENNAN: WE WERE TALKING ABOUT RUSSIA AND THE PRESIDENT'S LACK OF CONFRONTATION .>> THE TRUMP- PUTIN SHOW IS A RECURRING SHOW. TRUMP HAS CONSISTENTLY REFUSED TO PUBLICLY CONDEMN PUTIN. IT JUST HAPPENS OVER AND OVER AND OVER. I THINK HE MAKES A MISTAKE EVERY TIME HE DOES THAT. BUT WITH TRUMP, AS WITH EVERYTHING ELSE, THERE ARE ALWAYS TWO LEVELS GOING ON. THERE'S WHAT THE PRESIDENT SAYS PUBLICLY AND WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION IS DOING. I WAS AT A HOOVER INSTITUTION EVENT A FEW DAYS AGO AT STANFORD. MICHAEL MCFALL, WHO WAS THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION AMBASSADOR TO RUSSIA, NO FAN OF TRUMP AT ALL, SAID, " I DON'T SEE A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE LATE OBAMA YEARS AND THE EARLY TRUMP YEARS. I SEE MORE CONTINUITY ALONG THE THREE BIG DIMENSIONS-- STRENGTHENING NATO, PUNISHING RUSSIA FOR BELLIGERENT BEHAVIOR, AND STRENGTHENING UKRAINE ." SO THERE IS ALWAYS A TWO- LEVEL THING GOING ON. AND YOU DO HAVE TO REMEMBER WHAT THE PRESIDENT'S ADMINISTRATION IS DOING AGAINST RUSSIA IN ADDITION TO WHAT HE IS SAYING .>>

BUT IT ALSO PUTS HIS ADMINISTRATION IN A WEIRD POSITION. I MEAN, ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT SECRETARY POMPEO'S INTERVIEW WITH YOU IS HE HAD TO FIND HIMSELF EITHER IGNORING OR EXPLAINING AWAY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. AND YOU'RE RIGHT, WE SEE THIS HAPPEN OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND IT'S WORTH PAYING ATTENTION TO WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION CONTINUES TO DO, BUT WHAT DOES THAT SAY TO OUR FRIENDS, OUR ALLY, THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE US AROUND THE WORLD WHEN THE PRESIDENT CONTINUES TO SAY ONE THING, BUT SECRETARY POMPEO AND EVERYONE ELSE SAYING SOMETHING ELSE. IT IS JUST CONFUSING. AND IT ISN'T CLEAR. THE PRESIDENT'S WORDS DO MATTER IN FOREIGN AFFAIRS .>> AND ONE SENTENCE ON THIS. NOW THAT THE MUELLER REPORT IS BEHIND US AND MUELLER DID NOT FIND A CRIMINAL CONSPIRACY AT LEAST TO COLLUDE WITH RUSSIA, WILL THE PRESIDENT NOW FEEL MORE FREEDOM TO TRY THE CHANGE U. S. POLICY? SO THAT IS BEHIND US, WHAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED. I'M JUST WAITING TO SEE WHAT COMES NEXT. WE MAY BE IN A DIFFERENT ENVIRONMENT NOW .>> BRENNAN: I'M INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT POTENTIAL MEETINGS SINCE THE PRESIDENT HAS FLOATED THIS IDEA- OF- A NUCLEAR DEAL WITH CHINA AND RUSSIA. MORE ON THAT TO COME. BACK HERE AT HOME, RACHAEL, IN AN INTERVIEW WITH " NEW YORK TIMES ," SPEAKER PELOSI SAID THE BEST PLAN TO DEFEAT PRESIDENT TRUMP, NOT IMPEACH HIM, BUT IS TO WIN AT THE BALLOT BOX IN 2020 BUT OWN THE CENTER LEFT, OWN THE MAINSTREAM. IS THAT A MESSAGE BEING HEARD ?>> YEAH, IT'S REALLY INTERESTING TO SEE PELOSI, YOU KNOW, FOR YEARS WE SAW REPUBLICANS PAINT HER AS THIS SAN FRANCISCO LIBERAL, YOU KNOW, THIS BOGEYMAN, AND SHE MORE THAN ANY OTHER LEADER IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS REALLY TAKING A PRAGMATIC APPROACH TO IMPEACHMENT, TO 2020. SHE HAS PRETTY MUCH PUT ANY NOTION OF PUTTING MEDICARE FOR ALL ON THE HOUSE FLOOR TO THE SIDE. THEY'RE HAVING HEARINGS ON THAT, BUT SHE'S NOT TALKING ABOUT IT. SHE SAYS CALM DOWN ON IMPEACHMENT. AND THIS SHOWS THE SORT OF CAUTIOUS APPROACH SHE IS TAKING WHEN IT COMES TO KEEPING HER OWN MAJORITY AND THE FEAR THAT SHE HAS THAT HER CAUCUS COULD OVERREACH OR ARE BEING ACCUSED OF OVERREACHING WHEN IT COMES TO THESE INVESTIGATIONS. IT COULD HAVE A BLOWBACK NOT ONLY ON THE HOUSE BUT POTENTIALLY GIVING TRUMP A SECOND TERM, WHICH IS THE LAST THING THAT SHE WANTS. I ALSO THINK IT'S INTERESTING TO LOOK AT THE REPUBLICAN SIDE, TOO. BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, YOU ASK COLLINS ABOUT IF HE HAD ANY CONCERNS ABOUT RUSSIA AND ABOUT TRUMP STONEWALLING ALL THESE INVESTIGATIONS. YOU KNOW, I COVERED-- HIS RESPONSE WAS SOMETHING ALONG THE LINES OF OH, EVERY ADMINISTRATION DOES THIS. IT IS TRUE. THERE IS ALWAYS A TUG- OF- WAR BETWEEN THE HOUSE AND THE WHITE HOUSE, BUT I COVERED THE I. R. S. SCANDAL AND THE BENGHAZI INVESTIGATION, AND THE WHITE HOUSE, THE OBAMA WHITE HOUSE HATED THOSE INVESTIGATIONS. THEY GAVE OVER A TON OF INFORMATION. THEY LET PEOPLE DO DEPOSITIONS. AND SO IT IS REALLY INTERESTING TO SEE THAT REPUBLICANS DON'T HAVE ANY CONCERNS ABOUT PRECEDENT HERE, BECAUSE THEY'RE GOING TO BE UNDERCUTTING POTENTIALLY THEMSELVES IN THE FUTURE WHEN THERE IS A DEMOCRAT IN THE WHITE HOUSE AND THEY REGAIN CONTROL OF THE HOUSE .>> BRENNAN: BYRON, WHY ISN'T THERE MORE CONCERN ABOUT THAT ?>> I AM ACTUALLY A LITTLE MYSTIFIED AT PELOSI'S BEHAVIOR. SHE HAS BEEN PUTTING THE BRAKES ON THIS A LOT ON IMPEACHMENT TALKS. SHE KNOWS A LOT OF HER BASE WANTS IT. AND A LOT OF SENIOR DEMOCRATS, LIKE PELOSI, BELIEVE THAT IMPEACHING BILL CLINTON WAS POLITICAL SUICIDE FOR REPUBLICANS BACK IN 1998. AND, IN FACT, IN 1998, REPUBLICANS THOUGHT THEY WERE GOING TO PICK UP SEATS IN THE HOUSE WITH IMPEACHMENT, AND THEY DIDN'T. THEY ACTUALLY LOST A FEW SEATS. BUT THEY WON CONTROL OF THE HOUSE. AND AFTER IMPEACHING CLINTON, THEY WON CONTROL OF THE HOUSE IN '98, 2000, 2002, AND 2004, AND WHEN THEY LEAST IN 2006, IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH BILL CLINTON. IN ADDITION, THEY WON THE WHITE HOUSE IN 2000 AND 2004. IMPEACHMENT WAS NOT POLITICAL SUICIDE FOR REPUBLICANS, AND I THINK ACTUALLY NANCY PELOSI HAS A DIFFICULT CASE TO MAKE TO HER BASE ON THIS .>> BUT NANCY PELOSI ALSO SAYS, AND I THINK THIS CAME UP IN THAT PHONE CALL THAT THEY HAD RIGHT A. THE MUELLER REPORT CAME OUT BUT ALL THE CRASS ARE SCATTERED THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY BECAUSE OF THE RECESS, THAT SOME OF THE THINGS WE REMEMBER FROM THE NIXON SITUATION, THE HEARINGS, JOHN DEAN TALKING, ALL THAT STUFF, WEREN'T IMPEACHMENT HEARINGS. THEY WERE HEARINGS ABOUT THE INVESTIGATION, AND THEY WERE HEARINGS ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING ON. AND HER POINT WAS WE CAN GET OUR VERSION OF THE MUELLER REPORT OUT INTO THE WORLD, BECAUSE WE KNOW LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING THE READ IT. WE CAN DO THAT THROUGH COMMITTEE HEARINGS. WE CAN DO THAT THROUGH HEARINGS WITHOUT QUITE GOING AS FAR AS IMPEACHMENT WHEN WE KNOW WE ARE GOING TO LOSE THAT ARGUMENT IN THE SENATE. SO I THINK WHAT SHE'S FOCUSED ON IS WHAT IS THE P. R. WAY TO DO THIS. CAN WE GET ALL THIS, CAN WE GET MUELLER OUT IN FRONT OF IT, CAN WE DO ALL THAT AND NOT HAVE TO CALL IT IMPEACHMENT ?>> THE PROBLEM THERE, THOUGH, IS THAT WITH THE PRESIDENT DOING THE STONEWALLING OF CONGRESS, THE DEMOCRATS, THAT PLAN IS GOING UP IN SMOKE RIGHT NOW. THEY WANTED TO -->> NOT BOB MUELLER .>> WELL, BOB MUELLER IS ONE THING. IT SOUNDS LIKE HE WILL APPEAR BEFORE THE HOUSE AT SOME POINT IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF WEEKS, BUT DON MCGAHN WAS A KEY WITNESS IN THE MUELLER INVESTIGATION AND SPECIFICALLY ON QUESTIONS OF OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE, BUT THE WHITE HOUSE IS SAYING THEY'RE NOT GOING TO LET HIM APPEAR, SO THAT WHOLE PLAN OF INVESTIGATING AND LAYING IT OUT FOR THE PUBLIC IS SORT OF SHOT RIGHT NOW .>> BRENNAN: WELL, WE WILL SEE. IF THE SPECIAL COUNSEL DOES TESTIFY, IT WILL BE MUCH WATCHED-- MUST- WATCH TELEVISION. WE WILL BE RIGHT BACK WITH THE OTHER PART OF THIS MUST- WATCH TELEVISION IN A MOMENT .>>

IT'S SUNDAY, MAY 5. I'M MARGARET BRENNAN, AND THIS IS " FACE THE NATION"