Transcript: Robert Gates on "Face the Nation," May 23, 2021
The following is a transcript of the interview with former Defense Secretary Robert Gates that aired Sunday, May 23, 2021, on "Face the Nation."
JOHN DICKERSON: Last year, the pandemic kept us from travelling to Williamsburg, Virginia for our annual conversation with former Defense Secretary Robert Gates. He is now chancellor of William & Mary. This year, we made it -- and asked him about the prospects for peace between the Israelis and Palestinians.
FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE ROBERT GATES: I think there's very little prospect of a peace between them at this point. I don't think there has been in quite a long time. And I think I think, in fact, one of the things that produced the breakthrough with the Abraham Accords between the Israelis and the Gulf states and others has been sort of essentially setting aside the Palestinian issue and and moving on to a region that has changed in some pretty dramatic ways, which basically leaves the Palestinians out in the cold.
JOHN DICKERSON: Is it consistent with US national interests and values to leave the Palestinians out in the cold?
FMR. SEC. GATES: I certainly don't think it's consistent with our values, but you know JOHN, the truth is almost every president has made a real effort. And so these efforts have been stymied time and time again. And I would say there have been Israeli prime ministers who were actually interested in a solution. But- but the Palestinians couldn't bring themselves to say yes.
JOHN DICKERSON: How do you grade President Biden's handling of the issue?
FMR. SEC. GATES: I think that the US not being front and center was probably not a bad thing. I think letting the Egyptians, others take the lead. The loudest voices for a cease fire were coming from Europe and from the United States, not from the Arab states, although Egypt certainly played a role and in negotiating the cease fire.
JOHN DICKERSON: You mentioned President Biden was not publicly saying a number of things, not putting public pressure on the Israelis.
FMR. SEC. GATES: I think sometimes the United States can reach- can can achieve its objectives more effectively by playing a behind the scenes role than by being out in front. When the United States is out in front, it automatically creates lots of antibodies in a lot of different places. But if the US is playing a constructive role behind the scenes, often it can be much more effective.
JOHN DICKERSON: For US policymakers in dealing with Israel, there have been reports that Israel has been attacking covertly the Iranian nuclear program. Does Israel have leverage over a US president because of what it's doing covertly in Iran?
FMR. SEC. GATES: One of the things that I worried about when I was secretary was that the Israelis would take an action that they regarded as in their national interest that would create enormous problems for the United States strategically, politically, militarily, and that they could get themselves into a problem and then turn to us to bail them out. And- and my worry was always a concern about a unilateral Israeli action that then inevitably would require the United States to become involved.
JOHN DICKERSON: Do you think President Biden has to keep that in mind when he's putting pressure on Prime Minister Netanyahu on the Israeli-Palestinian front, that he has to keep in mind that he also needs Israel to not take the kind of action you're talking about.
FMR. SEC. GATES: I think that the mood in the United States, particularly among our politicians in Washington, is probably somewhat less favorable to Israel today than it has been in years past. I think we saw this in some of the Democratic criticism of Israel for the actions taken in Gaza. Bu- but this is- this is one of the problems of having allies, is that sometimes they do things that you think I really wish they hadn't done that, or you wor- have to worry that they will do something.
JOHN DICKERSON: You are a critic of President Biden's before he was president, but you've said a couple of things you think you agree with in his presidency so far. Are you surprised?
FMR. SEC. GATES: No, not really. I mean, the reality is actually most of my concerns and criticisms of Senator Biden really had to do with things that he voted on and opposed when- in the Cold War because basically opposed every single initiative Ronald Reagan had in terms of the arms race with the Soviets and various other things. In the Obama administration, in fact, we probably agreed on almost everything except Afghanistan. Now, that was a huge difference and that was a big deal.
JOHN DICKERSON: You're- you're about the same age.
FMR. SEC. GATES: Almost exactly.
JOHN DICKERSON: Could you do the job of being president at this age?
FMR. SEC. GATES: Well, I'm getting encouraged so far. I didn't think so a year or two ago, but so far so good.
JOHN DICKERSON: Yeah. You mean you're encouraged by Joe Biden's ability to handle the job?
FMR. SEC. GATES: Yeah, yeah
JOHN DICKERSON: What do you think about his Afghanistan policy, withdrawal from Afghanistan?
FMR. SEC. GATES: I probably would have- First of all, it is an amazingly tough decision. And you now have both a Republican and a Democratic president basically saying the American people are done with this, we need to come home. I think what's really critical at this point is that we sustain our economic and military assistance to the Afghans after we're gone.
JOHN DICKERSON: Let me take you back to your CIA days analyzing other countries. If you were analyzing the political structure of the United States as a CIA analyst and the minority party believed that, the majority of the voters in that party believe that the president was illegitimate. How would you assess the stability of the political organization of that country?
FMR. SEC. GATES: I would have serious concerns about the future. You know, I've- I worked for-.
JOHN DICKERSON: And what does that mean?
FMR. SEC. GATES: Well, I think that- I think in terms of the values and the principles that the Republican Party stood for under those five presidents are hard to find these days.
JOHN DICKERSON: When we come back, we'll hear more from Secretary Bob Gates.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JOHN DICKERSON: Welcome back to Face the Nation. We pick up where we left off with former Defense Secretary Robert Gates.
JOHN DICKERSON: Do you think that riots on the 6th of January, that the former president saying that Joe Biden stole the election, gives an opportunity to America's enemies to say America is- is a declining power?
FMR. SEC. GATES: I think there is that, but I think it's also broader than that, John, I think that what you see Xi Jinping saying and what you saw the Chinese foreign minister saying in Alaska in his meeting with Tony Blinken. Is- is not only pointing to our paralysis, particularly in the Congress, and inability to get anything really big done, but what happened on January 6th, but also the riots last summer, the whole Black Lives Matter are- ah, the racism that we see in our society. And- and- and they- and Xi Jinping has been very open about saying that he thinks we're a declining power. And- and the only way to counter that, frankly, is through actions, through being able to actually get some things done in Washington that we haven't been able to get done for a long time. But it's also, again, it goes back to strategic communications. How do you- how do you convey the message to the rest of the world? Yeah, we're a flawed country. We've- we've always had flaws, but we're unique in that we're the only country that actually talks about those flaws and actually works to try and fix them. We are an aspirational country and we've kind of lost that message, it seems to me.
JOHN DICKERSON: If there is a debate in America over whether the last election was legitimate, 70 percent of Republicans believe it was not. How does a country that can't even agree on that basic, obvious truth ever get behind more abstract truths like sacrificing for democracies in places that you don't know about, sacrificing for developing, helping developing countries because it's in our interests, all of which are ideas which require belief in those ideas?
FMR. SEC. GATES: The one thing I think across the ideological spectrum that brings people together is when they see young people taking on the uniform of our military services and they're taking an oath to the Constitution. And it's why the military to this day remains perhaps the most respected institution in the country, because it's seen by people as not being part of politics. It's- it's part of- it's what the country represents. I've read quotes from Republicans on the Hill that- that basically say, you know, in their heart of hearts, there probably aren't five people up here that actually believe that the election was stolen. So part of this is political gaming rather than a real conviction that the election was stolen.
JOHN DICKERSON: Can we afford--
FMR. SEC. GATES: How that manifests itself in the next election, I think is going to be a challenge.
JOHN DICKERSON: Aren't we- Isn't that playing footsie with some very dangerous stuff that--
FMR. SEC. GATES: Totally. It's very dangerous.
JOHN DICKERSON: What did you make- you know, the Cheney family? What did you make of Liz Cheney's stand and ultimate objection from Republican leadership?
FMR. SEC. GATES: I thought she was very courageous. She's a person of- of real integrity. You know, internal politics on the Hill is- is another matter, though.
JOHN DICKERSON: Unless we solve that problem. Do you think we can solve any of these other big challenges?
FMR. SEC. GATES: I think it would be very difficult, and I think that that problem goes back 20 years or more of- of- of demonizing the other party and of- of not having friends on the other side of the aisle, of not socially gathering after hours and talking about things and having friends. That's when you leech the hatred and the venom out of the relationship and you can focus on policies. And once you're focused on policies, then you can figure out a way to compromise.
JOHN DICKERSON: Secretary Gates, thank you.
FMR. SEC. GATES: Thank you.
JOHN DICKERSON: Our full interview with Secretary Gates is available on our website at CBS news dot com.
