FTN - 10/13/02

Nepenthes northiana, a pitcher plant found only on the slopes of limestone outcrops of Sarawak, Borneo. A mouse is trapped inside the pitcher of this specimen.
Redfern Natural History
BOB SCHIEFFER, Chief Washington Correspondent: Today on Face the Nation, the tarot card killer, are we any closer to finding him?

The Washington region has been virtually paralyzed for 10 days by a sniper who left a tarot card at one of the sites. Ten shootings, eight deaths. Why is he so hard to catch?

We'll get the latest from the investigative team, and we'll hear from Maryland Governor Parris Glendening and then get context from former FBI profiler Greg McCrary and criminal justice professor James Fox. Then I'll have a final word on Jimmy Carter.

But first, hunting a hunter on Face the Nation.


SCHIEFFER: Good morning again. We begin this morning by welcoming Maryland's Governor Parris Glendening to our broadcast.

Governor Glendening, welcome.

This is a time when people in Washington and the suburbs around both Virginia and Maryland, are going about their business very carefully.

Because I can't recall when we've had something quite like this, even after going through 9/11, then the anthrax scare up on Capitol Hill. But now the randomness of what's happening now seems to have had quite an impact on people.

Let me just begin by asking you, are you satisfied at this point with how this investigation is going?

GOV. PARRIS GLENDENING, D-MD: I am. Obviously I would wish, as every citizen would, that we would catch this person or people. But the local law enforcement are just doing a tremendous job.

I know that we've committed a great deal of state resources to this. The federal government is working on giving us every support that we need. And I have conferred regularly, and in fact even this morning, with the governor of Virginia and the mayor of the District of Columbia, and we are all working together.

The problem is that this is such a unique pattern of criminal behavior here that it's very, very difficult. But I am convinced that we are doing everything that we can, and just hope that we can bring this to a conclusion quickly.

SCHIEFFER: Well, it happens as we hear once again of another horrendous terrorist incident overseas in Indonesia, where now in the neighborhood of 200 people have been killed in an explosion at a nightclub on Bali, a place where many Americans frequent.

Do you have any indication or is there any suggestion that this might be tied in any way to any kind of a terrorist organization?

GLENDENING: I do not, nor have I heard any suggestion from anyone that this is a formal terrorist organization in that sense. I will tell you, however, the net impact in many ways is the same, in that it brings terror into the communities and the individuals.

When we see these horrible events like the terrorist attack in New York, the Pentagon, or even when we see in some of our communities a very high homicide rate, it doesn't still have quite the impact that this is having, because what's going on here now is that people in the normal life, taking their children to school, getting gas, going to and from work, average citizens are also now fearful for their life. That's what has produced this extra terror.

SCHIEFFER: Well, now, yesterday, I guess it was, the police released a composite photo of this white van as it were, a truck, whatever you might want to call it, that's been seen. Can you tell us what the significance of this is?

GLENDENING: I'm not sure in terms of...

SCHIEFFER: Well, what do you, what do you think? Do you think this is the get-away truck, as it were? Do you think this is some kind of diversionary tactic? Have many people seen this truck?

GLENDENING: I'll have to let, first of all, the experts in law enforcement comment on that.

We are receiving already, though, a large number of responses to the profile, what the van looks like. And the public has been very helpful and very cooperative trying to do this.

I will also tell you quite candidly that yesterday, when we were talking about this and my state superintendent of police was discussing it and I was on the phone, but in the car, I could see three vans, you know, two of which were similar to the profile type here.

So, bottom line on this, I guess, that we must rely on the public. And the public is being helpful, and as the police can tell you, they're doing a wonderful job. We are getting a lot of additional information, but there are also one heck of a lot of white vans out there.

SCHIEFFER: Well, let's just check in at this point with the investigative team.


SCHIEFFER: And with us this morning from Montgomery County, the Montgomery County Police Chief Charles Moose, County Executive Doug Duncan, ATF Agent Mike Bouchard and FBI Special Agent Gary Bald.

Chief, I guess the obvious question, any progress to report from overnight?

CHARLES MOOSE, Montgomery County, Maryland Police Chief: Very fortunate, we had a quiet night in the county. No acts of violence to report and nothing -- no developments on the investigation to report.

SCHIEFFER: Chief, let me ask you this. Would you like to develop some kind of a dialog with this person or persons, whom or whoever they may be? Would you like to talk to them? And if so, what should they do?

MOOSE: Well, sir, we're doing everything we can to make sure the investigators have what they need to bring this case to closure, bring this person or these people into custody.

SCHIEFFER: So would you like to talk to this person if he wanted to talk to you?

MOOSE: Well, sir, you know, certainly, if that would allow us to bring this investigation to closure, we're willing to do any and everything necessary.

SCHIEFFER: What would that person need to do to get in contact with you?

MOOSE: Well, sir, again, there are many ways to communicate, and I think most people know that. My telephone number is out there, mail, e-mail, all of those kinds of avenues are available.

But this person should rethink what they're doing; turn themselves in to law enforcement.

SCHIEFFER: Special Agent Bouchard, you're with the Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms Division. Have your investigators come to any kind of conclusion about who this person might be from the evidence that you've seen so far?

I guess what I'm driving at is, does a person have to be specially trained to do what this person has done?

MICHAEL BOUCHARD, ATF Special Agent In Charge: Well, Bob, I don't think you need special training. Obviously the person has practiced before.

But as far as where this evidence is leading, I think the important thing to say is, every day we make progress. Every shift, we eliminate that many more leads, which takes us that much closer to resolving this.

And more importantly, the public is obviously more cognizant of what's going on around. We're getting more leads at every shooting.

SCHIEFFER: Well, the FBI is in charge of that tip line where the public has been told to call in.

Let me ask you, Mr. Bald, you're the FBI man on this case. What kind of tips are you getting? Are they good tips? And what would you like to hear from the public?

GARY BALD, FBI Special Agent: Well, Bob, I don't want to characterize the nature of the tips that we're receiving. We've received an extensive amount of cooperation from the public to this point. We're looking for that to continue.

We provided a graphic yesterday that I think will help the public visualize what the witnesses are describing as having seen.

We've provided an 800 number, a hot line for the public to call. That number is 1-888-324-9800. And we'd like the public to continue to use that.

SCHIEFFER: Well, let me just say -- say I'm a fellow sitting out here, and I sort of have a hunch about something. Should I call that in, or are you looking more for people who have eyeball witness accounts? What sort of things should the public call to you?

BALD: The public should call with their thoughts, anything that they've seen, any ideas they have are always welcome.

SCHIEFFER: All right.

Well, Mr. Duncan, you're the county executive, the elected official there. Many people don't understand what a county executive is. It's sort of like you're the mayor of the county.

DOUGLAS DUNCAN, Montgomery County Executive: I'm the mayor of the county. That's right.

SCHIEFFER: How's your community holding up?

DUNCAN: They're very determined. They're very resolved. And we're starting to see -- we're seeing a strength from this community. I've been out and about this county quite a bit over the last several days, just talking to people, just getting a sense of how they're feeling.

The first thing they say is, thank you for the work your police department is doing, thank you for the work the ATF, the FBI, all of the agencies involved in this unprecedented team of people that's been put together to capture whoever's doing this.

So they thank us for what we're doing, and then the next thing they say is, catch 'em. We're going to get though this together, we're going to work together, and catch him as fast as you can.

And the public's been remarkable here. They are calling with tips; they're calling with leads. They're doing their job in participating in the investigation. And they've called with money for the reward fund. The reward fund is $500,000. That's where we set it. And any additional funds we get from the public will go to the families of the victims.

SCHIEFFER: All right. Well, I want to thank all of you for taking this time this morning to talk with us. Thank you very much.


SCHIEFFER: Well, Governor, you heard them. Let me ask you this. You heard the county executive there say that the public has been wonderful. Are there any laws on the books, not on the books I guess I should say, that would have made this go better; that would have helped these investigators? Because Maryland has very tough gun-control laws, some of the toughest in the country.

GLENDENING: We do, although most of the laws are relative to handguns. And one of the things, I think, that will have a huge impact is, we have a ballistic fingerprinting requirement, so that any new gun that is shipped into Maryland that is going to be sold has been tested and the fingerprint from the casing is recorded.

The problem is that that does not pertain to the so-called "long barrel," any of the assault weapons or hunting weapons. I believe that it should cover there as well. If that were the case, and if that gun had been sold in Maryland, we would at least know where the gun was sold and to whom it was sold.

Quite candidly, I think that the ballistic finger testing ought to be a national law, because right now if you buy that gun in, let's say, Texas, you could bring it up here and we wouldn't know.

But everything else is required to be recorded this way, and I don't believe that it in any way infringes on a individual's liberty or freedom to say that the bullets from a gun will be tested, and therefore if you use that gun for wrong purposes, as obviously is being done now, we'll at least know where the gun was purchased, who has it, and it gives us one more avenue of investigation.

SCHIEFFER: One other question. Do you think there may have, in some ways, been an overreaction here on the number of events that have been canceled? Because some people are saying, "Well, perhaps that gives this person, whomever it might be, a new sense of power and that's really what he wants."

GLENDENING: Part of the reason that I'm here and speaking out in general is not so much about the law enforcement effort, because I'm leaving that up to the professionals, but it's about trying to reassure the public.
When I say reassure the public, I think we have to take two approaches at once. First of all, we clearly must talk to our children. We must use some common sense in our behavior. We must -- if we see anything suspicious, report it to the police.

But at the same time, we cannot allow this individual or individuals to totally disrupt our lives. We can't close the schools, as some people have suggested. In fact, quite candidly, we can't put armed military at each of the schools, as some people have suggested. We can't permit it to disrupt our economy, and in fact some of the shopping areas are showing significant slowdown because people are afraid to be in those areas. And we can't permit it to disrupt our normal life.

What I would say is be supportive of the children, talk to one another, but we must go on with our life.

SCHIEFFER: Governor, thank you very much for being with us this morning.

When we come back in a minute, we're going to talk to two experts on the criminal mind, when we come back.


SCHIEFFER: Joining us now from Boston, Professor James Fox of Northeastern University, a professor of criminal justice; with us here, former FBI profiler Gregg McCrary.

Professor, you heard some of these law enforcement people talking this morning. I think the bottom line here is, if they are any closer to catching this fellow, they didn't reveal it this morning. They're keeping that very close to the vest.

Why are they being so closed-mouth about this, do you think?

JAMES FOX, Professor, Northeastern University: Well, hopefully they have more than they're revealing. Generally, they do hold back information as a way to trip up compulsive confessors. I mean, the chief may already be getting e-mails and messages from people who are claiming to be the shooter, but they have ways to make sure that they are just trying to take some credit and make some publicity. So that's typical.

One thing that concerns me, however, is this continual appeal to the shooter to turn himself in. He's not going to. And the more we ask him to, it will come across to him like begging. Just like serial killers enjoy when their victims beg for mercy, this shooter enjoys when the police chief begs for him to turn himself in. It makes him feel so powerful, so much in control. They're begging.

SCHIEFFER: Well, you know, that may be the reason the chief seemed so reluctant when I asked him, would he like to open a dialogue with this person.

FOX: Yes.

SCHIEFFER: I think clearly the police would love to hear from this person, but they don't want him to be in the position, I suppose, of thinking they're begging him to call, which is what you just said.

FOX: Yes. It's hard to read exactly what the chief is saying. There's more to it than meets the eye and meets the ear. That's for sure.

But what we do know is that at every stage through the past 10, 12 days, the killer's been watching television, reading the newspapers, and responding to what the cops are saying. When initially they were focusing on six sites, six shooting sites in Montgomery County and using geographical profiling to suggest where he might live or work, what does he do next? He goes to Virginia, as if to say, "Hey, I'm over here." When they speculate the schools were safe last weekend, what does he do on Monday? He targets a school, as if to say, "You guys aren't so smart."

So this killer certainly is enjoying not just the notoriety, but the fact that he can outsmart the police. He's feeling smug and in control.

SCHIEFFER: What about that, Mr. McCrary? You're an FBI agent, you used to profile these guys. Is that what he's thinking?

And I guess the obvious question, what kind of a person does something like this?

GREG McCRARY, Former FBI Profiler: He certainly -- I agree with the professor, he's enjoying the notoriety to a degree.

But the other thing to keep in mind, this is a pervasively angry individual.

And part of what's gone on in the media this week are things that could incite him to more violence or provoke the violence we're trying to prevent -- name-calling, I've seen networks with a crawl underneath it using very derogatory characterizations of this individual. Challenging his manhood, challenging his virility, in effect, is how he perceives it. And this may well incite the sort of violence or provoke the violence we're trying to prevent. So we have to be very careful.

The media is not just an objective reporter in this thing. You're a player.

And we always tell our agents and tell police officers, any time we're talking to the media -- and I'm trying to be cognizant of it as well -- we have to assume we're talking to the killer. And we have to be very careful of what we say and how we say it, because this is an emotionally unstable, emotionally volatile individual, extremely dangerous. And we want to be careful we don't do anything that provokes the violence we're trying to prevent.

SCHIEFFER: Is it possible, Mr. McCrary, that this could be more than one person? Could it be one person and some accomplices that are driving various kinds of trucks around?

McCRARY: I can't imagine it's more than two at most. I've certainly seen cases of two people involved in serial murders. That's not that uncommon. To get more than that would be very unusual.

Again, we don't know quite what to make of the white truck. Obviously the police are very interested in that, and we've got to resolve that one way or the other.

But I was involved in a serial murder case a while ago where eyewitnesses to the abduction reported two males in a brown Camaro or a beige Camaro. Police just went ballistic looking for this beige Camaro. And when we resolved it, it was not two men, but a man and a woman in a gold Nissan.

So we have to be -- we don't want to get tunnel vision on this thing, yet we have to resolve the white truck issue.

SCHIEFFER: Well, the whole business of the truck, I mean, the professor -- and I tend to kind of take his point, that maybe he doesn't want to get caught here. But why would he -- how could he think he could get away with something like this, if indeed he's driving that same truck to all of these things?

McCRARY: Right. Well, we have different reports from different scenes, but they all seem to be around a white vehicle. It was an Astro van last Friday morning that was seen, which is different than the picture of the truck and so forth.

And the problem, we may get a self-fulfilling prophecy. People at a scene, they hear a shot, and they start looking for a white vehicle and see one, when in fact that might not be what's involved at all. And especially -- what would reinforce the smugness of the offender is, if he's driving around in a blue Volvo or something totally unrelated to the white truck, that would, in his mind, prove his superiority.

SCHIEFFER: Professor?

FOX: And we don't know what vehicles he used for the other shootings. So, it may be possible that there's a range of vehicles he's using.
One thing I do want to point out is a lot of people are saying, oh, he wants to get caught because he's becoming brazen, leaving a tarot card at the scene, committing a homicide last Friday with a police officer nearby, dealing with an accident.

He doesn't want to get caught. Serial killers are having too good of a time at our expense. If he wanted to get caught, maybe he'd stick around at one of these shooting sites for more than five seconds to be seen by the police or onlooker.

So, the point is that, yes, he may becoming more brazen, and when he begins to feel invincible, he may take chances, not because he wants to get caught but because he thinks he can't be caught.

SCHIEFFER: Can't be. Let me just ask you, what do you make of this tarot card? I mean, this is like something out of a movie.

FOX: It may be a gimmick of his. According to fortune tellers, the death card really doesn't mean death, so it may be something he's using to intensify and enhance the aura, the drama.

What's more important, of course, is the message, "I am God." He's playing God. He's enjoying the fact that he's holding the entire area in his grip of terror. He's enjoying the notoriety he's achieved, and he's certainly enjoying the cat and mouse game with the police, a game, by the way, which he is winning.

SCHIEFFER: How good, Mr. McCrary, is this whole business of profiling? I'm, you know, I'm an old police reporter from long ago.

Generally I found that when people got caught it was because somebody told on them or somebody saw him, and it usually was no more complicated than that. But you're a lot better than you used to be at this sort of thing.

McCRARY: We hope so. We're working hard to get better.

It's a tool. The profile's not going to catch anyone. Detectives are going to catch people. Police officers are going to catch people. Profiles are not.

Profiling is an investigative tool that you use to filter out all these leads that are coming in, like the geographic profile and the behavioral profile. These things can be used to filter out those leads. With a thousand or more leads coming in, where do you start, where do you begin?

And this is why the police are not releasing a profile. They want to be the ones to do the filtering and the scanning out of the information and not the public. So, and that's the correct way to use it, so that they can focus the investigation, prioritize the leads and hopefully go to the best and most promising leads first.

SCHIEFFER: His ability as a rifleman, how much does this count? Is this somebody who has trained as a sniper? Do have you to be that good to do what he's done?

McCRARY: You don't have to be that good. I was with a SWAT team for a number of years, fired the M-16 and the Car-15 and all this. Those are very accurate weapons. With a little bit of practice, you can get quite proficient. So we don't want to over-interpret the data or read too much into that.

SCHIEFFER: Professor, if were you going to make a guess or make an assessment of who this might be, how would you describe this person?

FOX: You mean, sort of a profile?


FOX: Exactly what we were talking about.

Well, there are certain things we can get from the message and from the behavior. We know that respect is an important issue with this man. After all, he talked to the police with a very respectful tone, "Dear policeman."
Maybe it's a man who's disrespected, doesn't get a lot of respect at work, at home, and he's trying to grab respect with a gun.

Someone perhaps who's in his 20s, 30s.

Maybe he wanted a career in military but never really made it. And this is his chance, this is his battle, this is his attempt to be in charge.

But the thing about profiling, and I agree that they help, but they're not specific. It's not the kind of information that will give you a name and address. It's a tool, but it's not quite as good as seen on TV. So...

SCHIEFFER: I'm going to have to stop you there. Thanks to both of you. I hope we don't have to have you back for a long, long time, because I hope we catch this person.

McCRARY: I understand.

SCHIEFFER: Back with a final word in just a moment.


SCHIEFFER: Finally today, and in a more pleasant part of the news, I talked to Jimmy Carter not so long ago and remarked he might be one of the few men who served in the presidency and did not consider it the highlight of his life.

The moment I said it, I sort of regretted it. Even if he did feel that way, it could be taken as a way of saying his presidency hadn't amounted to much. But he didn't take offense. He laughed, and when he won the Nobel Peace Prize last week, he said about what I had said.

The Camp David Accord that President Carter forged removed Egypt as a combatant against Israel, and that is no small accomplishment. But that accomplishment was overshadowed by the long gas lines brought on by an Arab oil embargo and the capture of American diplomats in Iran. And Jimmy Carter's name became synonymous with incompetence.

Never a man of wealth, he discovered on leaving the White House that he was a million dollars in debt.

Yet at a time when some would have chosen to do less, he set out to do more.

He wrote books to support himself and raised money to create the Carter Center, which has become a major vehicle for mediating disputes and fighting disease.

Just one example: Because of Carter, Ginny worm an insidious human parasite once rampant in Africa, has all but irradiated in Ethiopia, Uganda and most of the Sudan.

Carter told me he saw a cartoon once in which a small boy looks at his father and says, "When I grow up, I want to be a former president." Well, it's a fine ambition if you do it the Jimmy Carter way.

That's it for us from Face the Nation in Washington. We'll see you next week right here.