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Face the Nation Transcript August 30, 2015: Jindal, Landrieu, & Selzer

(CBS News) -- A transcript from the August 30, 2015 edition of Face the Nation.Guests included: Bobby Jindal, Mitch Landrieu, Ann Selzer, Mark Zandi, Douglas Brinkley, Mario Tama, Jeffrey Goldberg, Ed O'Keefe, Mark Leibovich, and Julianna Goldman.

JOHN DICKERSON, CBS HOST: Today on FACE THE NATION: A new poll shows real trouble for Hillary Clinton in Iowa, while Donald Trump continues his surge and his attacks.


DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Jeb Bush doesn't have a clue, doesn't even have a clue.

If you want a nice person, honestly, you should vote for Jeb. The country is going to hell, but we won't talk about it.


DICKERSON: We will talk to Louisiana Governor and 2016 presidential candidate Bobby Jindal about GOP politics and the 10-year anniversary of Hurricane Katrina.

Plus: New Orleans Mayor Mitch Landrieu on problems that still plague his city.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our work won't be done, when almost 40 percent of children still live in poverty in the city. That's not a finished job.


DICKERSON: And in politics, we will go inside the numbers of the Bloomberg/"Des Moines Register" poll that shows Clinton's numbers sliding in Iowa, Bernie Sanders gaining ground and a possible opening for Joe Biden.

On the Republican side, boy, have they warmed to Donald Trump, and a quiet surge for Ben Carson. We will have analysis on all of that and a look at the wild ride the stock market took this week and what it means for you.

It's all ahead on FACE THE NATION.

Good morning, and welcome to FACE THE NATION. I'm John Dickerson. We start this morning with Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal, who joins us from New Orleans.

Welcome, Governor. I want to get to the 10th anniversary of Katrina in a moment, but first the political news, this new poll, the "Des Moines Register" poll. Donald Trump is at the top in Iowa. I want to ask you, there was period at which people in the Republican Party thought he was kind of a flash in a pan, a kind of summer fling.

That doesn't look like it's the case anymore. It looks like he might -- or he has possibility at least to be the nominee. I know you want to be the nominee yourself, but do you think it's possible that he could be?

GOV. BOBBY JINDAL (R-LA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: John, well, good morning. Thank you for having me.

Look, I think, as the voters get serious, as we get past these summer months, they're going to start asking the question, who can actually do this job? Who has the intelligence, who has the courage, who has the experience? I think, when that happens, we're going to do very well.

I will give you one example. I am the only candidate -- there's not two -- I'm the only candidate that has actually reduced government spending. I think a big issue in this election is reducing the size of government, growing the American economy.

What I see in the polls is that nobody has any votes right now. I think the voters in Iowa, these early states, they want to kick the tires, ask the tough questions. They're not going to decide until much later in this process.

DICKERSON: You are talking about your competence that is gained over years of experience working in government. But it looks, in these polls consistently, that what we're hearing from voters is they don't want anybody who has touched government. They don't want politicians.

JINDAL: John, I think that's exactly right.

I think one of the reasons that Trump has done well he has hit a nerve. What I get from voters in Iowa -- we're doing these 99 -- this 99-county tour -- is that voters are telling me they're frustrated, not just with President Obama and the Democrats. They're frustrated with the Republicans as well.

Republicans told me, give us the majority, we will get rid of Obamacare, we will get rid of amnesty, and that didn't happen. The difference is, I have done what I said I was going to do. We have cut our state budget 26 percent, 30,000 fewer state bureaucrats, top 10 state for private sector job creation.

I think voters are looking for a candidate with a backbone and experience to fight for them. They want term limits. They want an end to the permanent political class that thinks they're better and different from the voters. It's one of the reasons I think Hillary Clinton is having so many of troubles of her own. She thinks she is different and better than the voters. Voters are done with that.

DICKERSON: Let me ask you a question about immigration, a topic that is much in conversation among Republicans.

We know all Republicans candidates want to secure the border, but after that, there is the question of what to do with the undocumented workers who are in the United States. You said on CNN recently, you said, "I think American people will be pragmatic and compassionate about the people here."

What does that mean about the 11 million, 12 million undocumented workers who are here now?

JINDAL: Well, John, a couple of things.

I think the reason voters don't want a comprehensive approach, a gang of eight approach, is we tried that in the '80s. We were told, deal with it comprehensive and we would get a secure border. That didn't happen. That's why I think it's right to sequence these things. Secure the border first, and then we can have the discussion about the folks that are here.

But the bottom line is this. A smart immigration policy makes our country stronger. We need to insist. People that want to come to our country should come legally, should learn English, should adopt our values, roll up their sleeves and get to work.

One of the things I have been emphasizing, as the son of immigrants who came here legally, we need to insist on assimilation. In Europe, they're not doing that. They have got huge problems. Immigration without assimilation is invasion. That can weaken our country. We don't need to go down the path of Europe. Let's insist on being the melting pot. Let's forget this politically correct, left notion that we're not a melting pot anymore.

DICKERSON: But you said you want a compassionate treatment of the illegal immigrants here now. So, is deportation, which is the Donald Trump plan, would you say that's compassionate?

JINDAL: Well, look, like I said, secure the border first, put an end to the sanctuary cities.

I have said hold the mayors and councilman, hold them criminally liable for the crimes committed by people that shouldn't be here illegally in the first place. After we have done that -- and it would only take six months to secure the border. I know left says we can't get it done. That's ridiculous.

If we're serious about this, it won't be perfect, but we can get this done in six months. Then we can have the conversation about folks that are here illegally.

DICKERSON: Let's switch to anniversary of Hurricane Katrina. Is Louisiana in a position to handle this if it were to happen again? JINDAL: John, well, a couple of things.

One, I want to say that we are a resilient people in New Orleans, in Louisiana. Hurricanes Katrina and Rita knocked us to our knees. We got back on our feet. Secondly, this is a generous country. Americans love each other. I want to thank folks from all 49 other states came into our state, continue to come here to help us rebuild.

In terms of are we ready, we're absolutely better prepared than ever before, stronger levees, but, more importantly, people have game plan. We have got facilities with generators with fuel. We have got health care facilities that know how to evacuate ahead of time.

But we mustn't become complacent. More work needs to be done on coastal restoration. We have got a bipartisan plan to do that, a multiyear plan. We have invested record amounts at the state level. We will continue to work on that. We are better prepared than ever before.

What we say every hurricane season is, pray for the best, prepare for the worst. That's what we have done in South Louisiana.

DICKERSON: Finally, quickly, Governor, you have seen this from the governor's perspective. You're also thinking about the presidency. What would you have done differently than President George W. Bush did?

JINDAL: John, there were several failures at every level of government, federal, state and local.

There's no point in looking back. We need to be looking forward. And I want to emphasize this. The American people can do anything. And we have seen that here in Louisiana. Church groups, civic groups, school groups have come down here. They didn't wait for permission. They came here to help.

Large companies, small companies sent supplies when the bureaucracy wasn't working.


JINDAL: We called up Ford Motor Company. They donated trucks to help sheriffs and first-responders. Let's focus on moving forward. In 10 years, a lot of progress has happened in our schools and the health care system.

More works needs to be done, but we have come a long way.

DICKERSON: All right.

JINDAL: And I want to thank the generosity of the American people.

DICKERSON: All right. Governor Jindal, thanks so much for being with us.

JINDAL: Thanks.

DICKERSON: While Hurricane Katrina changed the Gulf Coast of this country 10 years ago, no single city was hit harder or represents the horror of the storm that was brought on this country than New Orleans.

And no city suffered more for the failures of government before and after Katrina hit; 80 percent of the city flooded and roughly half of the city was displaced.

We're joined now by New Orleans Mayor Democrat Mitch Landrieu.

Mayor, I want to ask you about the levees.


DICKERSON: They broke 10 years ago. Are they safe now?

LANDRIEU: Yes. They're much safer.

But the first thing for the country to continue to remember is this was an infrastructure failure. This was not a natural disaster. And one of the things that is essential is that we make sure that we secure the infrastructure in the country, particularly the levees.

The levees are much stronger than they were before. But we still believe that we need to get to 500-year protection, rather than 100. But it's much better. As the governor said just a minute ago, we have to continue to rebuild the coast. We have got to make sure the levees are strong.

And then internally in the city, as we rebuild structurally, they have to be strong as well.

DICKERSON: But I have heard you say before they are only capable of stopping a Category 3 hurricane, and not a 5. So, they're not strong enough.

LANDRIEU: Well, no -- let me say this.

First of all, if a Category 5 hits any major American city, much like you saw with Sandy in the Northeast and you are going to see in Miami, we are going to be in very difficult situations. But right now, the levee system here is much stronger than it should be. We have had hurricanes from the beginning of our 300-year history.

The point is to be better prepared, to be more resilient and to be stronger. We're stronger today than we were before Katrina. But you can have ever guarantee that you're not going to get hurt again.

DICKERSON: What have you learned in the rebuilding? In a sense, New Orleans has had a clean slate on some of the issues of poverty, of education, of rebuilding. What have you learned that other cities might be able to take from your experience? LANDRIEU: Well, listen, that's a great point, because New Orleans is either one two of things, the nation's canary in the coal mine. Everything that is happening down here on the negative side is actually reflected in every other city in America. And everything that's happening on the positive side here can make sure that the city of New Orleans is this nation's most immediate laboratory for innovation and change.

When you have a tragic circumstance like we have, what we have learned is, don't put it back just like it was. Really take the time to dig down deep and to make the institutional changes that are necessary to give the city a better chance going forward.

So, for example, we have completely restructured our education system, so now our kids have a much better opportunity. Our graduation rates are higher. Our dropout rates are lower. The achievement gap between the kids in the inner city and the kids outside of the city has closed. We have completely restructured our health care delivery system and we're completely changed our infrastructure.

So, the challenge is to go ahead and take the responsibility to build it back the way that you want it to always be, not just the way it was before the storm.

DICKERSON: You have also taken on an issue that was there before the storm, what you have called the epidemic of violence in your city. We have talked a lot about cities and the conflict between the community and the police. What have you learned in New Orleans about how -- about that issue?

LANDRIEU: Well, first of all, again I think New Orleans reflects the rest of the country.

When you see all of the upset on the streets of all of the cities of America surrounding the relationship between African-Americans, the police, that's real. We have it here. We have it everywhere. And we need to address that.

But one of the things I have specifically spoken about, which I think is a national epidemic that, in my opinion, is morally reprehensible, is the lives of young African-American men that are taken at such high rates from gun violence across America.

And I just believe it's an epidemic. And I think it's a moral failure of our country. So, we have talked about that a lot. And there is an ecosystem of violence that's developed in neighborhoods around this country that make us feel unsafe, that give people no hope. And I think that is a real problem.

So, we have got to work on that, too, but that is just not a criminal justice/police response problem. That's early childhood education. That's better families. It's better communities. It's people learning how to work together and resolve differences. It's about mental health. It's about substance abuse. It's about a bucket load of stuff. And it's symptomatic of what I think is a much larger problem in the country, which is what we have to deal with going forward. And we're going to keep working on that in New Orleans.

DICKERSON: All right, Governor Mitch Landrieu in New Orleans, thanks so much for being with us.

LANDRIEU: Thank you very much. Good to be with you.

DICKERSON: We turn now to politics and the new Bloomberg/"Des Moines Register" Iowa poll.

We're joined by Selzer & Company president Ann Selzer, who conducted that poll.

Welcome, Ann.


DICKERSON: Last night, when the poll numbers came out, political junkies were staring into their devices. The first thing they were looking at was, on the Democratic side, Hillary Clinton is at 37. Bernie Sanders is at 30, and Joe Biden is at 14. What did you see in those numbers?

SELZER: Well, I think the first thing that jumps right off the page is, this is the first time in Iowa that we have seen Hillary Clinton below 50 percent.

And she's not just a little below 50 percent. She's lost a third of her support since June.

DICKERSON: And is that a move away from Hillary Clinton or a move to Bernie Sanders? What's happening to her support?

SELZER: Well, her support is going a little bit into the not- sure category, of people sort of being -- waiting there.

But the Bernie Sanders vote is certainly getting stronger. And I think important to point out it isn't just that there's an anti- Clinton sentiment. It isn't that. So, that is perhaps the good news for former Secretary of State Clinton.

But it is, when we ask Bernie Sanders supporters, is this because you align with Bernie Sanders, the person and his views, 96 percent say yes. Overwhelmingly, that's what they're up to. And Clinton's favorabilities are very strong. So, she's in sort of a place of discomfort, where her first choice, horse race, not so good.


So, Sanders' voters are feeling the Bern. Who are they? Are they -- who is turning out for Bernie Sanders?

SELZER: And this, I think, also is fascinating, is that you look into the internals, as we call them. Who is it that he is strong with? He is losing by seven points.

He leads by eight points with people who say this would be the first time they participated in the caucus. He leads by over 20 points with people who say they consider themselves independents and people who are underage 45. Now, that is the Obama coalition. Those are the groups he put together that surprised Hillary Clinton in 2008.

DICKERSON: It's so funny too, because Bernie Sanders is older. He's not the kind of fresh, new millennial character that Senator Obama was.

What about Joe Biden? Any news for him here in this poll?

SELZER: Well, I think he gets 14 percent, which is better than he's ever done running for president in Iowa before. So, I think that is probably the good news.

He draws about evenly from people who would be Clinton and would be Sanders supporters. So, it's not clear that -- how that exactly would play out. His favorables are very good. So, there's an opportunity here. We also asked Clinton supporters if they would be comfortable with the field. And we clarified that that would be a field without Joe Biden, if for some robe she had to drop out. And 51 percent say, in fact, they would like someone else in that mix.


Let's switch over now to the Republicans. The numbers there in the horse race question are Donald Trump at 23, Ben Carson at 18, Scott Walker and Ted Cruz at 8, and Rubio and Bush at 6.

What -- so, Trump is on top. He's been that at other places. But what struck me was his numbers on the favorability rating.

SELZER: Yes. A few months ago, people -- his -- he had the highest unfavorables of anybody. Sort of Chris Christie was in that lead with him. And people say, well, he can't possibly do any better in the horse race because his unfavorables are so high. Can you really ever turn those around?

And I said, we have seen everything happen. And we certainly saw it happen this time. He now has seven people with higher unfavorables than he has. And that includes Jeb Bush. So, he has grown his favorability and it's turned into votes.

DICKERSON: Yes. He was toxic before, my word. And now Republicans has warmed to him.

Now Ben Carson, you couldn't think of a candidate who is any more different than Donald Trump, right? Self-effacing, quiet. but he's coming up strong in Iowa. Is he sort of the slow and steady kind of Rick Santorum, Mike Huckabee candidate we have seen in previous races?

SELZER: I think he is sort of is the Huckabee version of that. But he also has made a real presence, kind of a quiet presence, I will say. So, nobody is really doing much on television, but he has billboards quite everywhere. So, Ben Carson is in your community really on a pretty widespread basis. He was drawing last year. He was drawing packed crowds. So, people know him. He has a book out that you trip over them, because they're kind of everywhere.

So, there's a lot that people are finding that they like. Now, he's also not an establishment candidate. And if you take the numbers who support Trump, the numbers who support Carson, the numbers who support Carly Fiorina, that's 46 percent of the vote right now. Well, you can add Ted Cruz if you want. You quibble with that. That puts it over 50 percent. That says something about the mood.

DICKERSON: Yes. And what does the mood, what does it say about Jeb Bush?

SELZER: Jeb Bush's numbers don't look very good here. He's dropped in terms of support. His favorability numbers are not looking like -- he's not making improvement in Iowa.

And I think, by the time -- we're heading into September -- he's been at it for awhile. You would be looking to be gaining some traction.

DICKERSON: And then just quickly, Scott Walker, he was -- Iowa was supposed to be his state. What has happened to him?

SELZER: Well, I think everything has been a little bit quieter since Donald Trump jumped in for everybody else, number one.

But, number two, I think he's not -- he's just not out there in a big way and a big presence. So, his support has been cut in half.

DICKERSON: All right.

Ann Selzer, thanks so much for being with us.

We will be back in a minute.


DICKERSON: There is a lot of political news to talk about, so we will turn to our panel.

We start with our own Julianna Goldman, just back from the big meeting of Democrats in Minneapolis. Jeffrey Goldberg is the national correspondent for The Atlantic." Ed O'Keefe covers politics for "The Washington Post." And Mark Leibovich is the national correspondent for "The New York Times."

Julianna, I want to start with you, out with those Democrats.

How would they receive this news about Hillary Clinton in Iowa?

JULIANNA GOLDMAN, CBS NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, I think what you saw reflected in that poll and what you saw reflected in Minneapolis is this general lack of enthusiasm around the Democratic candidates right now.

Democrats really want to fall in love again, the way that they fell in love with Barack Obama. They say they really like Joe Biden, if he got in. With Clinton, they say that we will get excited about her when we need to, when the time is right. But it almost feels like there's this sort of arranged marriage kind of situation here, where they feel like they have to go with the person that's been picked for them, and that's Hillary Clinton.

DICKERSON: Mark, "The Washington Post" has a headline that says, "Summer of Clinton Stumbles, Gives Way to an Uncertain Fall for Democrats."

The last time you were here, you had written about Hillary Clinton's attempt to resell herself, introduce herself again.


DICKERSON: It's now been a couple of weeks since that has happened. How is the repackaging going for her?

LEIBOVICH: I would say slowly, I mean, absolutely.

And I think, if this in fact is the summer of Trump, I think what we're seeing is a juxtaposition between someone who is hyper- accessible, who is using the media, belittling the media at the same time, Donald Trump, and someone who is still perceived to be and still actually hiding in a really, really sustained way, which is Hillary Clinton.

DICKERSON: Ed, she is coming out of that hiding a little bit in taking on some of the Republicans. She's gone after Jeb Bush, who you spent a lot of time with, a few times.

She even made a comparison between terrorists and the way they treat women with the way Republicans did. What do you think she's up to there?

ED O'KEEFE, "THE WASHINGTON POST": I think she's trying solidify the Democratic base and sort of remind them that she's willing to be that partisan warrior that they're seeking.

It's certainly rattled Republicans, and I think they're a little concerned that there was perhaps a little bit of a double standard this week about the way she was talking about them vs. some of the things they have said about her in the past. But I saw that sort of as a sign of desperation, or at least an attempt to sort of tamper down the idea that others are surging or that they're going to get in.

This idea that she's focused on superdelegates -- we remember this from eight years ago -- it just sort of reminds me of a student council race, because idea that a certain percentage of superdelegates are telling her, yes, we're with you, well, that's like you telling your classmate you're going to vote for him, when really you're going to vote for the cute girl down the hall. It's just silly.



DICKERSON: This is the idea, that Hillary Clinton would get commitments now. Forget all this other stuff going -- commitments now about how they would vote at the nomination.

O'KEEFE: Yes, the idea that it's over, when we're...

GOLDMAN: Well, and, of course, delegates, superdelegates, that only matter if it's a really close race. And so that's what is so alarming about these Iowa numbers.

And even in Minneapolis, her campaign was asking delegates, asking DNC officials to sign these forms pledging support for next summer's convention. And they were saying, hey, sign it now, and you can come to private sessions with campaign advisers and even this private speech that Clinton gave the night before.


DICKERSON: Jeffrey, what do you think -- if you're Joe Biden, how are you reading this moment?

JEFFREY GOLDBERG, NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, "THE ATLANTIC": I think you wake up this morning -- and, look, we have to put -- we have to put in a box in a kind of way -- we don't understand the emotional state of mind with Joe Biden, with his family, because of the tragic loss of his son.

So, that -- we have no visibility into that. But Joe Biden the politician is looking at these numbers and saying, well, I should be president. I mean, clearly, the Democratic Party can't put Bernie Sanders up as the candidate in the general election. This is what he would be thinking, I think. Hillary Clinton, people don't seem to like very much. So, it's Joe Biden to the rescue one last time.

And if you're Joe Biden, you're at the top of American politics, you're there for a reason, because you take opportunities when they come. So, it would be -- it's a very interesting moment. He's going to have to make a decision very, very quickly, obviously. But I think that you are looking at this and you're seeing an opportunity.

DICKERSON: Julianna, was there a lot of buzz about Biden at the Democratic meeting in Minneapolis or...

GOLDMAN: There certainly was buzz around him. He was dominating discussions.

Look, I heard from someone who is close to his camp today. They say he's no closer to making a decision. The next few weeks are going to be critical. We will be examining every move, when he's really out very publicly on the Iran deal, when the pope comes to visit. And even next week, we will see him a little more politically active. He's going to be headlining a Senate fund-raiser for Democrats.

DICKERSON: Mark, if you're Hillary Clinton here, are you more worried about Bernie Sanders or Joe Biden?

LEIBOVICH: I'm -- right now, I'm probably more worried about Bernie Sanders, because I think that he embodies a kind of populism that was somewhat similar to Barack Obama's and the sort of falling- in-love aspect that Julianna talked about earlier.

But I -- also, I'm more worried about fact that you're on FACE THE NATION and we're talking about superdelegates, and Hillary Clinton lining up superdelegates. I mean, nothing screams entitled, inevitability, looking way far ahead than they talk about superdelegates at this early stage.

DICKERSON: And also -- and these numbers though are suggesting inevitability not the case.

Ed, there's a cliche in politics, your best day is the day before you announce. For Joe Biden, he has got to know that is the case, too.

O'KEEFE: Absolutely. And it's telling. Last weekend, he was meeting with a liberal lion, if you will, Elizabeth Warren. We're told yesterday he actually went to a Democratic event in Delaware to thank a bunch of state party activists for their work with his son.

Now, was he also going perhaps to sort of check in with folks and see if they're with him? We don't know, but telling that he is still somewhat very discreetly actively out there and talking to Democrats.

GOLDBERG: John, you're exactly right. You go -- from one day, you're the beloved uncle, and the next day, you're the target of huge attacks by Republicans and by Democrats, if he actually jumps.

DICKERSON: That's what he faces.

All right, we will be back with our panel in a moment. Stick with us.


DICKERSON: There's lot more FACE THE NATION coming up, including more of our panel, and more on the 10-year anniversary of Hurricane Katrina with historian Douglas Brinkley, and a look at some of the historic images of the storm and its aftermath.


DICKERSON: Some of our stations are leaving us now, but, for most of you, we will be right back with a lot more FACE THE NATION.

Stay with us.


DICKERSON: Welcome back the FACE THE NATION. I'm John Dickerson.

We continue now with our panel. Our own Julianna Goodman, Jeffrey Goldberg is the national correspondent for "The Atlantic" and the author of "A Matter of Black Lives," a profile of New Orleans Mayor Mitch Landrieu's work to stop the gun violence in his town, Ed O'Keefe covers politics for "The Washington Post," and Mark Leibovich is the national -- chief national correspondent for "The New York Times" magazine, and the author of a feature this week on broadcasting legend Larry King.

Mark, I want to start with you. Those numbers about Donald Trump in Iowa, you know, they used to worry about Chris Christie, that he was too New Jersey for Iowa and that his unfavorable ratings in Iowa are very high. But Donald Trump, apparently, is not too Queens for Iowa. His favorability ratings are quite high. He's ahead of seven other Republicans. They really like him.

LEIBOVICH: They -- they do. I mean he's actually -- he's too Queens for New Jersey even. I -- he is -- what's interesting about Trump in this appeal is not so much what he is saying. I mean what he's been saying is well-documented, well-covered, wall to wall. It's sort of -- it's almost like every other candidate in the field juxtaposes themselves against him as an example. I mean I hate to pick on your earlier guest, but Bobby Jindal, in that earlier interview, I mean he spoke in politics-ese. He didn't really answer your question. He had his sound bites. He had his hits. That's good. Good for him. I'm sure his advisors are patting him on the back. I mean he didn't, I don't think, moved a lot -- move a lot of people, and that's not how usually human beings talk.

DICKERSON: Julianna, you were noticing now that there is a little bit in Donald Trump that's changed in the way he speaks now that he's the established front runner.

GOODMAN: That's right. And that -- this is why other Republican candidates, they can't just assume that this was the summer of Trump and it's going to be the fall of somebody else. He has the money. He's the front runner. And he's also getting better on the stump. He's becoming a better candidate slowly. And even -- even Republicans affiliated with other campaigns have noticed that and give him credit for that. So just this weekend, when he said, look, this isn't -- this isn't about me. He's saying, I need your vote. You're seeing these little course corrections that show he's becoming a better candidate.

O'KEEFE: Because of that, you see all the other Republicans now saying, well, then treat him like us. I mean Jeb Bush, this week, basically hectoring the press to say, if he's the frontrunner, you should be scrutinizing him the exact same way you've been scrutinizing me and my record. You know, look at what he says about immigration. Look at his business record. The fact that even reporters wouldn't stand up to him when he kicked Jorge Ramos out of a -- out of a press conference, you know, you would have done that at mine, is what he was implying. So it's clearly -- it's clearly starting to resonate with the rest of the candidates.

GOLDBERG: The fascinating thing is that on one level scrutiny doesn't matter because the more outrageous he gets --

O'KEEFE: That's true. GOLDBERG: The more popular he becomes. I mean so his ability to sort of get -- articulate the inchoate resentments of a certain sector of the American electorate is -- is uncanny and so he seems to be immune to that level of scrutiny.

LEIBOVICH: And we -- also it just exposes the fake -- the fake humility, the fake gentlemanliness that pervades politics in general, that people are very frustrated with. He also exposes the -- frankly the smallness and the irrelevance of the media, while completely using the media to get his message out. And I mean it's not like he's on the road all the time. He's just doing interviews. He's sitting up in New York. I mean it's an amazing kind of, you know, turn of just both using and dismissing at the same time.

DICKERSON: Ed, do you think, in Governor Bush's attempt to kind of push back, we -- based on what we've been talking about, about the Trump appeal, is complaining about the press coverage going to do it for Jeb Bush?

O'KEEFE: Not necessarily. And -- and he was doing it subtlety. But as someone who's been following him around the country, I -- I knew what he was trying to say.

Look, it -- there's no doubt that Bush has -- has totally slid off the map. I mean his numbers are down in Iowa. He's down nationally. He's into the single digits. I think in their most private moments though, his advisors would say, well, we're in that field with Walker, with Cruz, with Rubio, that is our race. We're never going to necessarily get these Carson or Trump supporters. Maybe they'll come around eventually for the nominee. So they look at that sort of other category that the insiders, the people who have been doing this for a while, and they still remain somewhat confidence that they can prevail. And, remember, his super PAC, which still has the largest war chest currently in American politics, plans to start spending that money in the next 10 days in the early states. They believe that that TV advertising might help them out.

DICKERSON: Julianna, on immigration, there has been some conversation about Trumps immigration plan, but people, you know, like him and the other candidates haven't really taken him on, on it.

GOLDMAN: Well, look, all the Republicans knew that at some point immigration was going to be divisive for them. I don't think they realized that it was going to become -- that it was going to come this soon with Trump and it was going to ratchet up those pressures. And so you've seen candidates try different ways of -- of dealing with Trump. Jeb Bush sort of trying to take a longer -- a longer term strategy and methodically pick apart him on the policy issues. So this week saying, this isn't a conservative plan. But then that just earns the wrath of Trump. So it's figuring out, it's experimenting the best way to deal with him.

DICKERSON: Mark, I, you know, all these candidates when they campaign, they talk about being able to take on the challenges of the presidency, come what may. They'll be ready the take on Putin at any crisis. Isn't Donald Trump a challenge of that order and therefore isn't this a test of all the other candidates in terms of their ability to handle unpredictable things, adapt and present themselves and is anybody meeting that new challenge?

LEIBOVICH: Yes and no. I don't think a single candidate is meeting that challenge. I don't think they have any idea how to handle this. I think -- I mean, look, I mean Jeb Bush is -- I mean what's more -- even almost more telling about Jeb Bush is the reaction to Donald Trump is how long it's taken him to engage and to really have any clue whatsoever on how to deal with this guy. And again, it's because the old rules don't apply and the same consultants who, you know, worked however many races before don't really have a playbook for this.

GOLDBERG: And Trump doesn't even have a nuclear weapon. Image if he did? I mean these -- these guys are failing the tests with a -- with a guy like that. It's not a good sign.

DICKERSON: Speaking of nuclear deals --

GOLDBERG: That was -- that was my segue.

DICKERSON: With that segue --

GOLDBERG: Yes, that was my -- that was my segue, yes.

DICKERSON: That was brilliant and a little extra something will be in your pay packet.

On the Iran deal, Ted Cruz, in an effort to find a strategy to deal with the Trump, has locked arms with him. They're going to rally against this Iranian nuclear deal. Update us on where things are in the Senate and how such a rally might affect if not at all Congress' response?

GOLDBERG: Well, a, on the rally, it's very hard to imagine that the combination of Donald Trump and Ted Cruz will move wavering Democrats in any direction except away from Donald Trump and Ted Cruz. So it's not -- it's more of a show than, obviously, an -- a vote.


GOLDBERG: Right, a voting strategy. The win right now is at the president's back. He's going to see this through, I believe, if things remain as they are. And now the issue is, you know, the White House would like to very much avoid having to use a veto. They're looking at filibustering options now. Most Democrats are bandwagoning on to the president's side. So I think the deals -- come the middle of September, I think the deal is going to go through. Every single Republican is voting against it, but that's not enough to stop this.

DICKERSON: OK. All right, last word to you, Jeffrey. Thank you, to all of you. We'll be right back in a moment.


DICKERSON: Welcome back. Week on Wall Street started with manic Monday where investors saw the Dow plunge a thousand points. Markets then surged Tuesday followed by more plunging and surging throughout the week. Mark Zandi is chief economist at Moody's Analytics.

Mark, what happened this week?

MARK ZANDI, MOODY'S ANALYTICS: Well, was it -- wasn't it a wild ride? Yes, on Monday morning it was just --

DICKERSON: It was like this Trump campaign, yes.

ZANDI: Yes, un -- oh, yes, not quite as wild as that, I don't think.

Well, you know, the stock market has come a long way in a very short period of time. It's -- believe it or not, if you go back to the bottom after the recession and go to the very peak, the all-time peak this summer, the market has almost tripled in value. And that's just -- that's an amazing bull market. So it's not at all surprising that you would see a correction like this. and, you know, clearly the script is still being written here but my sense is that this is what you might call a garden variety stock market correction.

DICKERSON: Now, if I'm out in the listening audience, what is a garden variety stock market correction mean for me if I've got money in the market and what should I be doing or not doing?

ZANDI: Nothing. It means you should do nothing. You shouldn't panic. If you're in the stock market, if you're invested in the stock market, you shouldn't be invested for a month, a quarter, or for a year. You should be looking out over three, four, five, six year horizon. And the market goes up, it goes down, it goes all around. But at the end of the day, if the economy is on solid ground, the stock market will rise and you'll be fine. So there's nothing you should do in response to this.

Now, of course that we've got a lot of Baby Boomers out there and they're in their 50s and 60s, their horizons, their investment horizons are now shortened because they're approaching retirement. So they should go back and take a look at their portfolios to make sure they're not overladen with stock.

DICKERSON: Two kinds of economies here. There's the U.S. economy, which we'll get to in a minute but this set of gyrations was set off by the economy in China, right?

What is going on there and how worried do U.S. investors have to be about that?

ZANDI: Well, it's clearly slowing. It's now experiencing the slowest rate of growth in 25 years in China. There's a lot of debate about to what degree it's slowing just because the data is not very good. And that's part of the problem. It's such an opaque country, we really don't have good data. We don't have a good grip on it and that makes everyone very nervous. So it's clearly slowing. My sense is they have resources and they have enough control over the economy that it's not going to be really graceful but, at the end of the day, they'll hit their growth targets at least over the next couple, three years.

And it shouldn't be too much of a problem for the global economy and our economy. But you put your finger on the most significant threat to any optimism -- it is what is going on in China.

DICKERSON: So what about -- how optimistic should we then be about the American economy?

What is its state of affairs?

ZANDI: OK, John, I'm optimistic.

Look, the best way of gauging the health of the American economy is jobs, that's what people care about the most. And this economy created nearly 3 million jobs over the past year.

Just to put that into context for you, the last time that happened was in 1999 in the teeth of the technology boom. And then we had a tech bubble.

There's no bubble today. So this is on very solid foundations. And when you create 3 million jobs, yes, you're creating a lot of low- paying jobs, no doubt, but you're creating all kinds of jobs, high- paying jobs, middle-paying jobs, really across the board.

And as long as that continues, and there's no sign of that slowing, I think our economy is going to be fine.

DICKERSON: The last question I want to ask you is people are going to hear a lot about Federal Reserve and what it's doing.

What should they think about the Federal Reserve and what to look for going forward?

ZANDI: For most people, really, it's a big of a parlor game for people in the markets and economists like me. It's something like geeks really get into, you know, when are they actually going to raise interest rates?

But the policymakers at the Federal Reserve have said over and over again, that when they start to raise interest rates, they're going to raise them very, very slowly and let the economy adjust.

And so that allows all of us to -- just and one last final thing I'd say, 0 percent interest rate -- that's where interest rates are today. That is not a sign of a healthy economy, right. It's a good thing if interest rates rise give and get back to something more typical, 3 percent or 4 percent for a federal funds rate target.

And if we get there over the next three or four years, that is a very good sign that our economy is moving in the right direction.

DICKERSON: All right. Mark Zandi, thanks so much.

ZANDI: Thank you.

DICKERSON: We'll be back. And we'll take one more look at Hurricane Katrina 10 years later.


DICKERSON: For more on the 10-year anniversary of Hurricane Katrina we're joined from the heart of New Orleans by historian Douglas Brinkley, the author of "The Great Deluge," about the disaster.

Mr. Brinkley, I want to start with -- help us understand sort of -- help us apportion the blame for the disaster of Hurricane Katrina.

Who was at fault and how much were they at fault?

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, HISTORIAN: Well, George W. Bush did a terrible leadership job during that crisis. He kind of acted like nothing was happening wrong for the first days. He had been in San Diego, where he played air guitar and then he did the famous flyover, being very detached from the devastation.

And that photograph that damaged his presidency immensely, of him just peering down at the abyss.

Then when he did come back and land in the Gulf South, he put his arm around Michael Brown, saying, "Brownie, you did a heck of a job."

That sound byte became the Bush sound byte. It was about dysfunction.

Everybody -- it was even connected in a way to the war in Iraq, the Bush administration saying, things are going great. But things weren't going great.

So he gets a -- was very poor during that leadership moment.

FEMA did terrible as we all know.

But the Coast Guard was amazing. Some individuals in the Louisiana National Guard did a great job.

But it was really Louisianians saving Louisiana and Mississippians saving Mississippi in those crucial first 72 hours. Mayor Nagin went into hiding; now he's in jail on the 10th anniversary.

William Jefferson, the congressman from Louisiana, went to jail for corruption.

So there was just dysfunction at the federal, state and local level everywhere you look.

DICKERSON: And there was -- but there was a lot of dysfunction before the weather ever hit.

I mean, in terms of the levees and the Corps of Engineers, just as people think about, you know, there's the criticisms of President Bush and the kind of the public relations aspect of this, which we can get back to.

But in terms of the nuts and bolts of the levees breaking and that kind of thing, what should people have in mind as they look back on this incident?

BRINKLEY: They should be angry at the Army Corps of Engineers for building shoddy levees. It was a disastrously built system, it breached in over 50 different places. The media actually covered the three major breaches and the City of New Orleans filled up like a bowl with water, 80 percent of the city flooded.

The Army Corps did a terrible job and also they -- these boondoggle engineering projects in the Gulf South, a thing called the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet that was supposed to connect the Gulf of Mexico to the Port of New Orleans and Mississippi River, it's closed now on the 10th anniversary.

But in the lawsuits it shows that the Army Corps for Mr. Go (ph) has to pay $3 billion, just came out this week, $3 billion for wetlands restoration.

So the ragged Bootheel of Louisiana has been terribly mismanaged, it's an ecological disaster zone. And there's -- it's overengineering and overthinking about man controlling of nature. We're killing the wetlands down here.

DICKERSON: In this situation, you had people who'd been worrying about this kind of thing perhaps happening to New Orleans before Hurricane Katrina hit. As you say, the Army Corps of Engineers failed on this.

What is your sense about the government's ability to take on big long-term challenges where there isn't an immediate threat?

Has anyone learned the lesson here that, if you don't take these possible threats seriously, eventually this kind of thing could happen?

BRINKLEY: I think a lot of lessons have been learned.

For one example, Mayor Nagin kept all of the school buses, the rescue buses, below sea level. So when Katrina hit, all of the buses drowned. We know better. Do not keep your rescue vehicles in a below sea level situation when a hurricane comes. Pull your assets out of the bowl.

And when the storm comes, you at least can move people from facilities like the Superdome or the convention center.

The Coast Guard had learned that previously and that's why they had done such a good job. But -- (BREAK)

BRINKLEY: -- every community in America needs to (INAUDIBLE) see operation protocol make sense.

And it's usually the mayor of that is in charge of that. But we had utter breakdown in Katrina. And hopefully our country learned some lessons from it. Hopefully the billions poured in down here, the levee system can sustain at least a category 3 storm.

Some people are skeptical, but we'll never know unless another storm comes.

DICKERSON: All right. Douglas Brinkley, thank you so much for being with us. Sorry about the satellite hiccups there for a moment but we very much appreciate you being with us.

Next we want to welcome Mario Tama to the broadcast. Mario is a photographer for Getty Images and his pictures of Katrina and the recovery are the basis for the book, "Coming Back: New Orleans Resurgent."

Mario, welcome. Tell us about when the hurricane first hit. Take us back to that moment.

What was it like?

MARIO TAMA, PHOTOGRAPHER: Well, I remember the -- I was in staying in the hotel, the Holiday Inn in the French Quarter, which was relatively high ground. And I remember the storm passing; it was a fairly violent storm. It was wind blasts blowing and shattering -- and it was very strong for awhile.

But the day cleared up in the afternoon and by, I think by the end of the day, there was some sunshine that was out and a lot of people thought the bullet was dodged.

DICKERSON: The hurricane hit; tell us about the people you met in the aftermath and that you came to know.

TAMA: I met so many people. The people of New Orleans are, as you know, incredibly hospitable, incredibly warm, friendly and open. And so many folks over the years invited me into their homes, into their lives, to share their stories.

One in particular was Hazard Gillette (ph) in the Lower 9th Ward. Hazard (ph) refused to leave during the storm, and even after the storm when the government was trying to evacuate everyone from the Lower 9th Ward, he refused to leave his home and basically never left since then. And I would go back and visit him every few weeks and -- or every few months and --


DICKERSON: And why didn't he want to leave? TAMA: He loved his home. He loved where he lived. And also he believed in God strongly and God, that God would take care of him, that God would protect him. And this is his home and he wasn't going anywhere.

DICKERSON: Did you find that a lot, that the faith sustained the community?

TAMA: Absolutely. I feel like that that was a very strong contributor to a lot of the rebirth down there, both faith and roots, the roots of family, the roots of history. They are so much stronger down there in New Orleans than anywhere else.

DICKERSON: After the hurricane hit, we saw those pictures and images of people in the Superdome. That was the center of some of the most awful -- what was it like being in there?

TAMA: I recall just trying to get there was difficult. There was some floodwaters around the Superdome.

And walking through the floodwaters, hoisting my cameras overhead. And I'll never forget opening up that door and this blast of putrid air came blasting out. And that smell and that heat was just something I had never experienced in the U.S.

And I remember walking down, looking down into the Superdome and there was this one piercing ray of light that came through the hole in the roof and it looked like a ray of light from the heavens shining into the depths of hell.

And there were just a few people left on the ground, kind of -- they had been there for four days now. Hadn't had electricity, hadn't had anything, any supplies given to them. And for this to happen in this epic symbol of American success, the Superdome, it was incredibly shocking.

DICKERSON: You talk about the symbol of American success, there was -- the storm hit people differently if they were rich or poor.

Did you see that?

TAMA: Yes. In the aftermath, I think the first thing in regards to that is how people were able to evacuate or not evacuate.

Some 100,000 people in New Orleans did not have access to a vehicle. So the evacuation plan was great for folks that had a vehicle and could get out. But so many people didn't have access and a lot of the buses that were supposed to come to pick up people to get them out never showed up.

So a lot of folks in the poor communities weren't able to get out and also, of course, the elderly, disabled, that was the biggest problem with the evacuation process.

DICKERSON: You have kept going back; what have you seen? TAMA: I tell you what, every time I go back, it gets a little bit better. It's just an increment that is notched up each time. The last time I was down there, the joy and the spirit, the energy of New Orleans really has recovered. And there's no one that can deny that.

DICKERSON: You normally have gone back to big story that you've covered?

Or is there something special about New Orleans that drew you back?

TAMA: It really was something indescribable; I came back to New York. I had ridden on the boats with some of these folks. I was in the Superdome and I really couldn't get them out of my head. I can't really describe it. And I just felt like I had to go back down there see what was happening and see if folks were coming back.

And every time I went down, I started to see the same people and see the spirit rebuilding. It was infectious. And you just wanted to document this time in American history, this incredible attempt at renewal and rebirth.

DICKERSON: You've also covered -- you've been to Iraq and Afghanistan and covered those stories.

Similarities, differences?

TAMA: The most similar thing that I can remember is when the cavalry finally arrived, the American DOD came in -- I think four days, five days later -- started doing airdrops, started doing helicopter rescues. And you had helicopters flying all over the city, landing on highways, picking up people on highways.

That reminded me of Iraq. It looked like Iraq or it looked like old photos I'd seen of Vietnam.

In those first few days when there was no relief, no supplies coming in, when people basically -- it felt like a failed state for a few days. So in those ways, it reminded me of Afghanistan.


DICKERSON: And do you think if this happened again, would they -- what would the reaction be like in New Orleans?

TAMA: I think they're -- they will be a lot more prepared this time. I think it seems like there will be lot more coordination between agencies. I think people have taken a lot more seriously, but it's so hard to imagine that happening again, God forbid. Unfortunately, history suggests it probably will, sooner or later.

DICKERSON: All right. Mario Tama, thanks so much for being with us.

TAMA: Thank you, John, my pleasure.

DICKERSON: We'll be right back.


DICKERSON: We'd like to end today's show by remembering Alison Parker and Adam Ward from our CBS News affiliate in Roanoke, who were shot and killed this week by a former employee of the station.

They will be mourned this afternoon at a memorial service. You can see it live on CBSN at 3:00 pm Eastern. Our thoughts and prayers are with the family and colleagues.

Until next week, for FACE THE NATION, I'm John Dickerson.

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