Extended interview: Josh Shapiro

He was not in my contacts. He is now, though. And I listened to the voicemail. And as I'm listening to the voicemail, Max walked into the kitchen. I was there by myself, just having a cup of coffee. It was early in the morning. And Max goes, was that the president? This is your son? Yeah, my son, Max, who is now 16. And I said, it was. He goes, are you going to call him back? I said, of course I'm going to call him back. He's president of United States. So I called back. And I got to tell you, Norah, I didn't think he was going to answer that line. I assumed it was not really his number. And sure enough, he answered the phone. And the first thing he wanted to do was to tell me that his team was on it and providing whatever support we needed from a law enforcement perspective, which I know to be true. I had talked to the FBI director, talked to the attorney general in the days before. And I appreciate what they did. And then, I frankly expected the conversation to end there just a couple minutes in. And he then went on to bring up a lot of other topics. Including a 2028 presidential contest. And he said to you, you don't want to be president. It's too dangerous. Well, we had had a longer conversation before that. We talked about a number of issues. I actually lobbied him on an important steelworker issue for Pennsylvania. And then he began musing aloud about political violence, his situation in Butler, what happened to me in Harrisburg. And he said, being president is a really dangerous job. And he rattled off other jobs that have a lower fatality rate than presidents. And he said, it's very, very dangerous. Just be careful. And I said, well, Mr. President, I'm not looking to run for President. And he said, well, I just wanted to share that with you. And so it was a strange conversation that bounced through a lot of different topics. But look, I appreciate the fact that he called. But do you think about that when you consider your future, about just how dangerous it is? Look, I'm in a job right now where I'm out in the public every day. I'm in their communities. I'm on their farms. I'm in their centers. And I really, honestly just try not to think about it. I think if you become captive to the fear, then you stop showing up. You stop putting yourself in a position to be an effective leader because you can no longer listen to people. You can no longer hear them in their communities. I think part of what's allowed me to do my work well here in Pennsylvania is I'm able to get out of the office and show up and listen and take people's temperatures and learn from them, and then do for them. That's what I've learned throughout my entire career, from when I first started knocking on doors, running for state representative, the importance of showing up and listening. And so I can't really live in fear. I can't think about that. I wish our political violence was reduced in this country. I'm doing everything in my power to model the kind of behavior that will hopefully reduce it. I'm partnering with others to make sure we bring down the temperature. That's what I think I can do, but I can't become captive to the fear. Let's rewind a little bit. I know that growing up, you wanted to be like your dad. Yeah. A pediatrician, the person everyone came to when they had a problem. So how come you didn't end up a doctor? Oh, man. Because they make you take all these classes in college. All the pre-med stuff. Norah-- You weren't very good at science and math? No, no. And I worked hard. I mean, I wasn't screwing around. I was really studying. There was one day in college, my freshman year, where I was on the pre-med track and took an exam. Big lecture hall. The professor asked me to come down and hands me back my exam. This is after class. He said, I know you studied. I know you tried. That's evident. But maybe this just isn't for you. And he handed me back my exam. And out of 165 points, I got a 4, like a total of a 4 on this exam, which I didn't think was mathematically possible. That means you flunked it. I flunked that exam. And I was going to call my dad and be like, hey, Pop-- I was probably being overly dramatic-- I'm not going to be a doctor like you, sorry. But I had to go to basketball practice. I was on the basketball team my freshman year. It is true. A short Jewish guy like me, I could ball back then. And that day, I literally got cut from the basketball team. So now I got cut from the basketball team, flunked out of pre-med. And I really thought like, my dream of being an NBA-playing doctor was over. And that night, someone knocked on my dorm room door and said, hey, Shapiro, we've got an opening on the student government. You should run. I'm like, I don't want to do that. It was not of any interest to me. And he said, well, you got nothing better going on in your life. You should give it a shot. So I ran, I won, and I guess, as they say, the rest is history. But that was a pivotal moment for me. And looking back on it, in many ways, the way I was raised to care for others to do, for others, to serve others, I thought would be a doctor like my dad. And it ended up in this business of serving others through government service. I certainly did not understand it at the time. I didn't appreciate that moment there until many, many years later. But looking back on it, it may not be through the sciences. It may be through government. But I think I'm making my folks proud doing what they taught me, which is to serve and help others. You say about your mom, her standards were high and her sense of duty greater. What did she teach you about activism? Man, my mom is maybe the greatest activist I've ever been around. You're growing up as a little kid, 6, 7, 8 years old. You don't know anything beyond your neighborhood, your playground, your school. And my mom taught me there was this huge world around me of people who were suffering, who were challenged, who couldn't live out their life openly in their faith. And that there were kids around the world in a place called the Soviet Union, which I had never heard of who couldn't go out and play like me or go to a school like I was privileged to go to, or even go to a synagogue like this one. And she taught me about the need to care about others and help others. Again, Norah, I don't want to suggest that I understood that as a 6, 7, 8, 9-year-old boy. But I just saw someone who was just involved in everything, doing everything, community-minded, and teaching me about people that were suffering or facing hardship, and making sure I understood I had a responsibility to help them in some way. You also write that you had a happy childhood and, at points, an unhappy childhood home. Yeah. It's something you've never spoken about publicly.

Yeah. What does that mean? I wanted to share that. In part, because I know there's a lot of other families out there that go through this kind of stuff. But in part, I want my mom to know that for as difficult as our childhood was at times, for as difficult as I imagine hers was, she really set me on this path of service in a way that I hope she sees some of herself in, and I hope she takes pride in. I didn't set out to do what I do to please my mother or to do something she asked me to do. But I-- I think she's proud of what I'm doing, and I hope she sees a reflection of herself in the work I do. And I know you haven't talked about this publicly before, but what happened? What was happening at home? You know, I know my mom struggled a lot as a kid. And as she evolved into an adult, probably should have gotten some help. Probably should have talked to someone to help her manage the challenges, the very real challenges that she faced. Mental health challenges? Yeah. And I think in the absence of that-- we had times in our home, which was a really loving home. I have to stress that. And happy. I mean, we loved one another and we enjoyed being around one another. I'm close as ever to my brother and sister today as I was then. But there were moments of chaos and yelling and things that aren't normal ways that I think kids should grow up. And I know there's other families out there that have that in their home, too. And I think for me, the reaction to that was to try and comfort my siblings, protect them, seek out a solution. Which, for me back then, was how do I just get this to be calm and not chaotic? How do I help make sure my mom is happy and she's OK? And how do we get through this particular moment? And I think reflecting on it as I wrote this book, in many ways that's guided a lot of the decisions I made throughout my career and my call to service. This sort of constant desire to find a solution to someone else's problem. That's driven by childhood trauma. I guess so. And I don't want to suggest that I grew up with trauma. I think my mom grew up with real trauma. I grew up with-- But trauma is intergenerational. Yeah. And I think it's also manifests itself, particularly in my work as attorney general, to help those who are abused, help those children who didn't get a fair shot. And I'm sure it's not easy for my mom to hear me talk about. But I hope she can take some pride in seeing that the people I've helped along the way, when I've had those gut check moments-- do you go forward? Do you push? Do you launch the investigation? Do you file the lawsuit? Do you campaign for this office? Do you support this cause? I hope she sees a lot of herself in what she taught me as a young boy about helping others in that work that I do. I mean, these can be very painful things that happen to us when we're young and dealing with mental health issues. What made you want to talk about it now? I think as I have done this work in public service, I've always found myself being very open about helping people with mental health issues, people with trauma issues, people who have been abused. And I have felt it so many different times as I've done this work, that I wanted to open up and share, I get it. And I'm here for you and I want to help you. And I never did. In part, I think, because I didn't feel all of that was my story to share. And the more I thought about it-- my mom's story, I mean. The more I thought about it-- But it's your story, too. Yeah, I think I realized that. And I wanted to be forthright with that. Have you had therapy? I have also-- I'll answer your question in a sec. I've also found that as I've shared some of this with small groups of friends over the years, that they would then volunteer, hey, you know what? In my house, we had this or we had that challenge or this was an issue. And so I hope that when folks read this book, they can see a little bit of their own upbringing, their own challenges and maybe see that they are surmountable and to see the goodness. And I think my mom comes off as a hero in this book, I really do. She's a wonderful person who drove me to do the work I do. And in many ways-- quite literally, obviously, but in many ways figuratively-- I would not be here doing what I do, but for her. You asked about therapy. I was asked that question, actually, after the governor's residence attack and some of the issues we worked through. I've never been to therapy, neither for the issues that I dealt with growing up, nor with what happened in the wake of the attack. But I want to be really clear. That is not because I'm against therapy. I think that is a wonderful thing for people. And there is no shame in that. There should be no stigma associated with that. I have been blessed in my life to have someone that centers me, who I can talk to about everything and anything. Who, when I feel that imbalance, is able to help me find clarity. And that's my wife, Lori, who's been my best friend since the ninth grade. And so I think growing up in that environment, I had Lori. As I've gone through these challenges as an adult, I've had Lori. And so in many ways, the talks that you might have with the therapist, in many ways, I've been blessed to have those with Lori. But I want to stress, I think therapy is a wonderful thing. And those who take advantage of it really have a great opportunity. And as governor, I have fought to make sure in all of our insurance, all of our insurance companies, we've got mental health parity, we've got coverage for therapy. We've invested hundreds of millions of dollars in therapy for kids at school who wish to have counselors for that. I think it's a really important thing. We're about the same age, and-- if not the same age. We're about the same age, and I think it's true. I don't think our parents really had access to mental health therapy. Yeah. Our generation, even, too, I don't think utilizes it probably to the degree that they should. But certainly the younger people, the next generation utilizes mental health therapy a lot. And they're super open about it. Which is great, right? It's awesome. I'll show up at a school. And I'll say, what's the one thing you need that I can help with? And they're not talking to me about budgets or any of that stuff. You know what they say? We need more mental health counselors. And all they want to do is talk about their feelings and be open about it. And I think that's awesome. And I think you're right. It was sort of taboo for our parents' generation. I think it was accepted in our generation, but not done a lot. And now for kids, I think it's great that they're taking advantage of this. You describe your wife, Lori, as not just an exceptional mom, but also your best friend who you were with together for-- since

Ninth grade. Ninth grade, ninth grade. What role does she play in your campaigns? I mean, not a big role outwardly. And to be honest with you, for most of our campaigns, with four kids in the cast at home, she was largely at home raising-- raising our children. But I'd come home from a day on the trail, I'd download to her. I'd talk to her about what I experienced. I talked to her about what I was feeling. And what was so interesting was for someone who was home, and at that moment in her life, really focused on kids, she still had this keen sense of where people were, and this incredible ability to help me see the truth in what they were saying, or the kernel of information that was really important for me to understand. The connection I needed to have in order to make that campaign successful or that work successful. So she's been a sounding board for all of my years doing this. She's the last person I talk to before any big decision. And as we've faced big decisions in our lives, one thing she has always returned me to is, why do you want to do this? How can this job, this position, help you serve others? What's the impact on our family? These are the fundamental, the foundational questions she would return me to every step of the way. Oh, that's so interesting. She's pushing you to explain what your intention is and what your purpose is all the time. Yeah. I mean, I write in the book about a moment where Senator Schumer was encouraging me really strongly and vigorously to run for the United States Senate. And that's a big deal to be a US Senator. And I thought I had a pretty good shot to win that race. And I remember leaving Senator Schumer in DC and taking the train back home and promising him a call the next day, where I'd give him an answer, yay or nay. And I walked in the house that night. It was total chaos. Bath time, bedtime, the whole thing. And I didn't get a chance to settle in and talk to Lori until much later. I ran through all the politics. I ran through all the reasons for doing it. And then she looked at me deadpan and said, I'm all in. Just tell me, why do you want to do that job? And I said, look, honey, it's being a US Senator. It's a big deal. No, I understand it's a big deal. Why do you want to do that job? Couple hours later, I called Senator Schumer and told him I really didn't want to do that job. I wanted to run for attorney general. Which I think most political folks would say was not the wisest decision, but for me, it was the decision that allowed me to serve others in the best way I could, to have the most direct impact on people's lives. And while some of the pundits may have said, dumb decision. US Senate is a higher level position, rather than being attorney general. What Lori understood through that was that I was being called to serve. The best way I could serve at that moment was being AG. And the most impact I could have on people's lives was as the attorney general. And so I take nothing away from any US senators. It's wonderful that they have that job. It wasn't the right job for me and Lori helped me see that. You talk about your wife, too, as having this high emotional intelligence, EQ, which is very important. What was the advice she gave you when you were being considered to run as and be the running mate of Kamala Harris, to be her VP? It was a truncated period of time, for obvious reasons. And for the first few days, you go through this vetting process. They ask you a lot of questions. They ask for a lot of documents. And there wasn't a lot of conversations she and I were having in those moments. I think she knew something was nagging at me, that it didn't feel like the right situation for me. But it wasn't until the day or so before I went to meet with the vice president that we really got into it. And not into it in any negative way, but got into a deep discussion. And in many ways, she returned to the same questions she had asked me all along. Why do you want to leave this job that you absolutely love, where you get a lot of stuff done every day, to do that? Explain that to me. We talked a lot about the impact this would have on our children, having to move our children-- if we were successful-- to DC and take them out of their schools, out of their community, the impact of them growing up in that environment. And so in many ways, we had the same foundational questions and conversations. In fact, in the vetting, you say in the book that you were advised, well, your wife's going to have to get new clothes. She's going to have to pay for hair and makeup. You're going to have to move into the vice presidential, all this stuff. And it seemed like it kind of turned you off. Look, there were a number of moments in that process where I was asked things, or in the case of what you just said, I thought folks weren't particularly respectful to my wife. That left me really questioning whether this was something I wanted to do. Was it the job or the way the people were asking it? I think it was all of the above. On the one hand, I was deeply humbled to be asked to go through this process that very few people get to go through. I was honored, truly. I also understood the absolute need to beat Donald Trump. And I wanted to do everything in my power to help. And if being vice president was a way that could be helpful, I wanted to entertain that. I wanted to go through that process. And I think for me, it was the process in part, but also returning to the underlying question, would this be the best way I could serve? But that's not what you write in the book. You write you felt like the questioning was unnecessarily contentious. And you even described one specific question by the vice president's staff, Kamala Harris's staff, as offensive. I write both in the book, about the vetting process and about the best way I could serve. As it relates to the vetting process, I thought some of the commentary about my wife was not OK. And I thought asking me if I was a double agent for the Israeli government was offensive. So let me be clear. While you were being vetted to be Kamala Harris's running mate, you were asked, have you ever been an agent of the Israeli government.? Yes. And they also asked if you were a double agent for Israel? They actually asked if I was an agent and if I had ever spoken to an undercover agent of the Israeli government. And what did you say? Well, on the first I said, of course not. And on the second, I said, of course not. And I mean, look, I was the attorney general. I sent people undercover on operations all the time. And if you're doing a good job being undercover, you don't know that person is undercover. So I sort of made that point to try and lighten the mood. Like how would I know if I was talking to an undercover agent if they were undercover? Literally. And again, I understand they had a job to do to ask me those questions. I think it went beyond just checking a box on a questionnaire. Why do you think they asked you that? I don't know. Look, I don't want to sit here and ascribe beliefs to others. I can tell you that it landed on me in an offensive way. I have dedicated my entire adult life to serving this country, serving this country in different capacities and different volunteer capacities. I love this country. And for someone to question that, for someone to question my loyalty-- particularly as someone who is as open about his faith as he is-- was offensive to me. Do you think Kamala Harris knew that you were being asked that question? I don't know. To this day, I don't know if the vice president knew that I was being asked that question. And I don't know if the vice president knew that I called 48 hours before she announced her decision to pull out and tell her I did not want to be considered. I don't know. Why did you pull out? When I returned home from the meeting-- I should back up. When I went into that meeting, I had a nagging feeling that this was not the right thing for me. This is the meeting with Kamala Harris. Yes. And in fact, I had some aides who suggested "just don't go" to me. If you're not going to do it, you should just pull out right now. Why did you already have a nagging feeling even before you went in? Just going through the process. I had a nagging feeling that it wasn't the best way I could serve. It wasn't going to be right for my family. I wanted to defeat Donald Trump. I wanted to do everything in my power to help our ticket in a really, really, really difficult moment for our country. And I felt this obligation to help in some way. And so I decided it was important for me to hear from the vice president what she envisioned with the job. Because ultimately, how could I make this decision if I didn't know where her head was? And she didn't know where mine was, because ultimately, she'd be the boss and she'd have to make a decision as to what was best for her. And I will tell you, we had a very, very candid conversation at the vice president's residence. Candid conversation, to me, always means-- is kind of a polite way of papering over what really happened. Actually, I don't mean it that way. OK. To this day, I am grateful to the vice president for being as blunt and direct as she was. And I think I was equally blunt and direct back. I think oftentimes, in a professional setting, particularly a politically professional setting, everybody kind of stands on ceremony. Nobody really wants to say what they feel. She told me exactly how she felt, and I told her exactly how I felt. And it was polite and it was direct. And I thought we both left that meeting with a better understanding of where one another were. I left, certainly with a clear understanding of what she envisioned in the role. And I think she left with an understanding of what I had hoped the role would be. And it was a very direct and, I thought, very good conversation. Sounds like you left and decided you don't want the job. Well, I left and I had planned to head home and do what I do when I've got to make any big decision, just sit with Lori and think about it. I walked in the door and the kids were there, and they just wondered, what happened? And what are we going to do? And Lori and I got a quiet moment to talk. And I just said, this doesn't feel right. And I don't think-- I don't think this is what I want to do. And I don't know that this is the best fit. I write about it extensively in the book. And I thought it was important for me to be honest with the vice president, as she was preparing to make arguably the most important decision of her campaign, and let her know she should make that decision in a way that did not include me or factor me into her process. And so I picked up the phone to call. To call her team, to let her know. I called her team and asked if I could speak to her, to express the conclusion I had reached. And they did not let me speak to her. They told me she had retired for the evening. It was in the 8 o'clock hour, which I found a little bit strange. And so I decided to relay to her aide the conclusion that I had reached, and asked her to pass that along to the vice president. You thought it was weird that her staff didn't let you talk to her to say, look, maybe it's not the right fit. I don't want to give her staff a hard time. And I don't know what the dynamics were there, but I thought it was very important to be direct, to be honest, to let them know the conclusion that I had reached in enough time for her to make a decision amongst a number of other really wonderful candidates who were being considered and vetted. Do you think if you had been Kamala Harris's running mate, she would have won? No, I think the people voted based on who was at the top of the ticket. And I want to stress, I did everything in my power to help in Pennsylvania. I was in Wisconsin and Michigan with Gretchen Whitmer and Tony Evers, traveled across the country, wherever the campaign asked me to go. And they asked me to film an ad with the vice president, and I sat right beside her and filmed the ad. I did everything they asked. And I worked my tail off to do everything I could to help. Because I viewed that election as is just such a critically important juncture for this country. And I think it would have been far better off had she won the election. Do you think that you were not chosen as Kamala Harris's VP because you were Jewish? Again, I called that Sunday night to say I didn't want to be considered. So I think-- But you don't know that she knew that. I think that's a question for her. Did it bother you that perhaps your Jewish faith was a factor? I recognize when you are making a decision to pick a running mate, you have to consider lots of different factors. I chose, albeit not at the same level with the same spotlight, a running mate when I ran for governor. And I chose Austin Davis, who's a wonderful partner and our Commonwealth's first Black Lieutenant Governor. I think our nation's youngest, as well. And we went through an extensive vetting process. And it was important to me not only to know his views on the issues, but to know how we would meld together, whether we could be a team. Whether he felt that I would hear him out, and whether I would feel that hearing him out would be a value added to the process. So I'd been through a process like that. And so I wasn't offended by her desire to ask me any questions or probe different issue areas. I think she was absolutely entitled to do so. I just knew that at the conclusion of that process for me, after I left Washington, DC that night, that it was not the best way for me to serve. Minnesota's Governor Tim Walz was ultimately chosen as Kamala Harris's running mate. Did you know that he was asked by her vetting team if he had ever been an agent of China? Tim and I are friends. Gwen and Lori are really good friends. We never spoke about this process, neither during it certainly, or afterwards. Governor Walz is now under investigation by Trump's Department of Justice over an alleged conspiracy to impede federal immigration agents. We've all seen what's going on in Minnesota with ICE. If that happened here in Pennsylvania, what would you do? Well, first let me say the Department of Justice should be investigating the killing of Renee Good. The idea that they are investigating, in what seems to be a very politically motivated effort, the mayor and the governor, and ignoring what that ICE agent did on the streets of Minneapolis, to me, is wrong. And I think as a former attorney general, as someone who's investigated shootings, investigated political corruption, charged people-- and at times didn't charge people-- what I see the Department of Justice doing there causes me great concern. As for here in Pennsylvania, I can tell you that we have trust in the communities where we have policing and law enforcement. We have invested, on my watch, dollars to increase our police force by 2,000 people here in this Commonwealth, while at the same time investing hundreds of millions of dollars into violence prevention initiatives in our community centers, at our churches, with our community organizations that lead anti-violence efforts. And as a result of that work, crime is down 12%. Fatal gun violence is down 42%, largely because we've built trust in the community. When the federal government surges troops, whether National Guard or ICE, into a community against the wishes of a mayor, against the wishes of a governor, it erodes that trust that is the bond that keeps a community and police working together to keep their streets safe. It is my hope that they would not do that here in Pennsylvania, in any of our cities or any of our towns. But I'm not leaning just on hope. We are prepared from a law enforcement perspective. We're prepared from a state perspective. We're coordinating with our local partners should that come to our doorstep. How would you stop it? I have shown an ability to take this administration to court and win and stop some of the negative actions that they were attempting to put in our direction, negative actions they were attempting to take against us. I've also shown an ability to be able to work closely with law enforcement, to be able to keep communities safe. And so we have plans should the federal government try and surge those type of assets into our communities. And I believe if they want safe communities, as they profess to want every single day, then they should trust the way we're handling things here in the Commonwealth where crime is down, where communities trust the police and the police work with the communities. And we're seeing better and better things happen in our communities because of that trust. What do you think President Trump's ultimate goal is in sending ICE into Minnesota, putting troops from the Pentagon on standby. What's this about? He claims that he wants safer communities. Well, I think to build safe communities, you need to build trust between law enforcement and the communities that they police. We've done that here in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, invested in policing. We've hired 2,000 more police and investing in community violence initiatives that have reduced violent crime by 12% in our Commonwealth, fatal gun violence by 42% in our Commonwealth. That's the way you keep communities safe, by having trust between law enforcement and the community they represent. What the president is doing in Minneapolis is ripping away those bonds between the community and the police, eroding that trust, and making people less safe. And that is incredibly dangerous. I think it is bad for our society. Why do you think he's doing it? President claims it's all about safety. What do you think it's about? I think what the president's trying to do is show that he can be the dominant figure, that he can dictate behavior, whether we're talking about Minneapolis or Greenland or Venezuela. This president wants to try and show what he believes to be strength, that I think is a facade of strength, and ultimately a veneer of strength. And ultimately, what he's doing is making people worse off, less safe. I mean, I've covered politics for 25 years. You and I knew each other since days on Capitol Hill when you were a staffer and I was a cub reporter. Work hall, yeah. Does the Democratic Party have a clear set of ideals? I think Democratic Party has a lot of clear ideals and wonderful values. Otherwise, I wouldn't be a member of this party. But are they articulating it in a way, in a national message that will win elections? Yeah, I think folks are hoping that there will be one person every day who's going to go out and be the alternative to Donald Trump, or be the voice of the Democratic Party. And that one person certainly does not exist right now. And that's OK. Because there are wonderful Democrats who are governors, who are mayors, who are members of Congress, who are doing really good work every single day. And that work they're doing, I think, is helping shape and define the new generation of the Democratic Party. And I think it is important that our party go through this process right now, this process of trying to figure out, what are going to be those core values that we fight for, that define our party going forward? Because in many ways, we've been robbed of that as a party for many, many years. You could make an argument that we haven't had an ideological battle within our party since the Clinton election way back in 1992. And so I think it is important that we go through this process. I think it's important that we be a party with a big tent. I think it's important that we be a party that has lots of different views and different issues that might define someone who leads in one state versus someone who leads in another state. The key is going to be how to pull all that together around a shared vision. What do you think that contest in 2028 looks like? I think it's hard to think about the context-- contest in 2028 when we have, I think, an existential challenge before us in 2026, in these midterms. Why is it an existential challenge? If you don't like the policies of Donald Trump, if you don't-- not you, Norah. If one doesn't like the policies of Donald Trump or the policies of this Congress, the way to stop those policies is by winning the Democratic US House of Representatives. And here in Pennsylvania, we have four US House seats that are going to be razor thin, probably come down to a point or so. If you're angry and frustrated by the lack of people standing up in Congress to stop what this president is doing, go flip the United States Senate in races across this country. I don't think we have the luxury of focusing on 2028 when we have these massive elections before us in 2026. Great. Governor Shapiro, thank you. Thank you.