Full transcript of "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan," May 3, 2026
On this "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan" broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:
- White House Economic Council Director Kevin Hassett
- Minneapolis Fed president and CEO Neel Kashkari
- Chevron CEO Mike Wirth
- Rep. Jason Crow, Democrat of Colorado
- Sen. Raphael Warnock, Democrat of Georgia
Click here to browse full transcripts from 2026 of "Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan."
MARGARET BRENNAN: I'm Margaret Brennan in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: Gas prices spike, as the standoff between the U.S. and Iran continues. And a Supreme Court decision weakening the Voting Rights Act sparks a scramble in some Southern states to get in on redistricting before the midterm elections.
With his approval ratings on a downward trend, President Trump visited a Florida retirement community to conduct a survey of his own.
(Begin VT)
DONALD TRUMP (President of the United States): Let's do another poll. No tax on tips.
(CHEERING)
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: No tax on overtime.
(CHEERING)
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: No tax on Social Security.
(CHEERING)
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: That's the one they like.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: But with the conflict in Iran stalled, as well as the ships in the Strait of Hormuz, gas prices have skyrocketed, up 40 cents a gallon in the U.S. just in the last week. The president promises they will come down, and says, look on the bright side.
(Begin VT)
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: The stock market is rocking and rolling. Your 401(k)s are at the highest they have ever been.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will take a deep dive on the state of the economy with White House National Economic Council Director Kevin Hassett, the head of the Minneapolis Federal Reserve, Neel Kashkari, and the chairman and CEO of Chevron, Mike Wirth.
Then: President Trump tells Congress the war with Iran has been terminated. We will talk to Colorado Democrat Jason Crow. And we will assess the impact of the Supreme Court's decision to limit the scope of part of the Voting Rights Act with Georgia Democratic Senator Raphael Warnock.
It's all just ahead on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.
It has been another one of those weeks where some very big news stories now feel very much in the rearview mirror. One such story is that Congress finally, by voice vote, no less, after 76 days, ended the partial shutdown of the Department of Homeland Security. So, now TSA agents and the Coast Guard are fully funded.
Still unfunded, though, are the two immigration agencies, ICE and CBP. But the story that's not going away is the impact the war with Iran is having on the global economy. Rising fuel costs were a factor in the shutdown of low-cost carrier Spirit Airlines yesterday.
And the sudden shutdown left thousands stranded and some 14,000-plus employees without jobs, according to the pilots union.
We begin this morning with the director of the White House Economic Council. Kevin Hassett joins us from Los Angeles.
Good early morning to you.
KEVIN HASSETT (Director, National Economic Council): Oh, yes, good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, Director, President Trump sent a letter to Congress on Friday saying a few things, one, that the conflict with Iran, the cease-fire has been extended. He also said the hostilities have been terminated. He also said the threat posed by Iran remains significant, and the force posture will continue to be updated.
Then, overnight, we saw the president said Iran has not yet paid a big enough price for what they've done to humanity. What exactly is the message to the market?
KEVIN HASSETT: Right.
Well, I think the market has been pretty consistent. The fact is that what the president is seeing is that the blockade is working. It's putting an enormous amount of pressure on Iran, and Iran's threats to put mines in the straits have even made it so that humanitarian aid that, of course, we would let through to Iran, that there are a lot of those ship captains that are wary of going to Iranian ports because they're worried about where the Iranians have put the mines.
And so, you know, I go down to the Sit Room many times a week and get briefed on what's going on in Iran, and they're an economy that's really on the precipice of extreme calamity. They are having hyperinflation. They're starting to have hunger.
The bottom line is that the pressure on the great American people, because of these people who are, like, really intent on American and Israeli destruction with their nuclear weapons are still in power.
One last thing, Margaret. I don't know if you noticed, but the U.N. Human Rights folks came out this week condemning Iran because they're killing people who are trying to stand up to this regime that's potentially, you know, causing starvation and even famine.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you said the blockade is still on. A blockade is an act of war. Are we at war with Iran?
KEVIN HASSETT: Iran shut down the straits. Iran shut down the straits.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
KEVIN HASSETT: And the only ones they were letting through were Iranian ships. And President Trump didn't think that was acceptable.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, we are still at war with Iran?
KEVIN HASSETT: You know, what – I don't know what the definition of war is when we're not shooting and we're negotiating and they're under a lot of pressure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
KEVIN HASSETT: There's no reason, I think, right now, to do anything other than what we're doing. The fact is that that regime has destroyed the country.
Let me put it in perspective. In 1978, before the ayatollah came in, then the per capita GDP in Iran was about the same as for Japan and Italy. Now it's about the same as for Honduras.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
KEVIN HASSETT: So they've run that country into the ground, and that's before the straits were closed.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. And we're…
KEVIN HASSETT: So, it's really, really a country that's on the rocks.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sure. And we're negotiating with them.
But – so we're going into week 10. I'm wondering what economic modeling you have done here, because the president had originally said the war was going to last four to six weeks. We are now at the national average gas price of $4.45 a gallon. Can we end the conflict without taking back the Strait of Hormuz?
KEVIN HASSETT: Well, what's going on right now is that we're doing an all- of-the-above approach to get energy to Americans and increase energy production around the world.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That takes time.
KEVIN HASSETT: And I think, if you look out into the future, what people are saying – no, so, as an example, we waived the Jones Act.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
KEVIN HASSETT: The price of the U.S. is $10 a barrel less than it is on – in the world – and in the world exchanges. And all the West Coast was buying world price of oil, but now they're buying U.S. price of oil.
So we've made an enormous number of strides to reduce the short-term disruption.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, Bank of America came out with a report this week that says the gas price spike has cost consumers $19 billion.
They say gas prices have canceled out nearly half of the increase in expected tax refunds. Goldman Sachs concurs, saying the drag will offset the benefits from that tax bill the White House had championed.
Do you agree with that analysis?
KEVIN HASSETT: No, that analysis is incorrect.
Like, think about it this way; 153 million people have filed taxes already, and the average tax refund is $3,600; 53 million people have benefited from no tax on tips, no tax on overtime, no tax on Social Security.
For the no tax on tips and Social Security, that exempts between $7,000 and $8,000 from taxation for those people.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well…
KEVIN HASSETT: And for the no tax on overtime, it's like closer to $5,000. And so these are really, really big numbers.
And if people look at their gas bills, of course, they're higher, and we're working – doing everything we can to make the temporary increase as small as possible.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
KEVIN HASSETT: But – and then, finally, there's the economic growth component. Real incomes are growing. And real incomes, when they adjust for inflation, include the price of energy. Real incomes shrunk for almost eight years under Obama. They shrunk under Biden. And they're rising now despite the short-term increase in gas prices.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, we did see an increase in the PCE.
But, just to clarify, the tax law that the president signed doesn't eliminate taxes on Social Security. It gives seniors an enhanced standard deduction through the end of 2028. But let me ask you about the news on Spirit Airlines.
KEVIN HASSETT: Well, but that makes it so most people aren't covered – yeah, I want to talk about Spirit. I was just going to say, that makes it so most people don't face the tax on – so you're right as a technical matter, but it has the effect that we discussed.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, Spirit Airlines ceased operations, as we said, at the top of the program.
I know the White House was trying to craft an 11th-hour rescue plan. What happened? And do you have a sense of the broader economic impact?
KEVIN HASSETT: Oh, sure.
You know, it's something that I was very much involved in. We were aware that, because the merger between JetBlue and Spirit was canceled unwisely by the Biden administration, that Spirit, sadly, was on the ropes, when we looked at their books, that basically, the creditors were going to liquidate them and try to sell their assets so that they could get some of the money back that they had lent them.
And there were some authorities that were explored to see if we could help them get a lifeline. And, in the end, the legal – legal guys decided that those authorities wouldn't apply in this situation.
Meanwhile, while that was being investigated, Secretary Duffy and I talked to the other airlines to make sure that they were helping people who were stranded by Spirit get home, and to get home, basically at much lower prices than the normal fares that they would charge.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So the company – go ahead.
KEVIN HASSETT: In fact, American and United and Southwest have all said that they're going to help the passengers of Spirit get home.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you mentioned past financial troubles. Unquestionably, Spirit did have them for many years. But they did have that restructuring deal with bond holders back in March.
In the statement Spirit released explaining why they were shutting down, they said – quote – "The sudden and sustained rise in fuel prices in recent weeks ultimately has left us with no alternative."
Are other industries also at risk of collapse, or other major companies due to this energy shock?
KEVIN HASSETT: Well, don't forget that Spirit Airlines was Chapter 11 twice because they basically didn't…
MARGARET BRENNAN: I acknowledged that.
KEVIN HASSETT: … have a business model that was working. That's right.
And the other airlines are still operating. I just flew out here to discuss these matters at the Milken Conference in L.A., you know, on United Airlines. And the – you know, the other airlines are operating. What they've done, because they have thought ahead way more than the management of Spirit is hedge their jet fuel purchases and so on, so that energy – short-term energy shocks don't have a big effect on their business.
Certainly, it'll affect profits for the airlines for a quarter or so, but they're very, very healthy right now.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Kevin Hassett, we'll let you get back to work. Thank you for joining us this morning.
(LAUGHTER)
KEVIN HASSETT: Thanks. Great to be here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Face the Nation will be back in a minute.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We go now to Neel Kashkari, who is the president and CEO of the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis.
Good morning.
NEEL KASHKARI (President, Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis): Good morning, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, the Federal Reserve kept interest rates unchanged this past week.
And, on Wednesday, you were one of three regional presidents who indicated that future rate cuts may not be appropriate and a hike could even be in the cards. You – you dissented there.
Are you saying that the financial markets and the White House should no longer expect the Fed to cut rates?
NEEL KASHKARI: I think we all need to be open-minded about where interest rates are going, because there's so much uncertainty coming out of the Middle East.
You know, I think I'm very focused and many of my colleagues are what happens in Iran, how long the Strait of Hormuz is closed. And the longer it's closed, the higher likely energy prices and fertilizer prices will go, the bigger impact it's going to have on inflation here in America.
And then we at the Fed have to take that on board. And so I was simply saying that there's so much uncertainty about the outlook in the Middle East right now, I don't feel comfortable signaling that a rate cut is in the cards.
You know, we might in the – in worse scenarios, we might have to go the other direction.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I know you were just listening to Kevin Hassett, the president's economic adviser. He was not directly answering the question of what comes next, but he was painting a picture of continued tension.
And I wonder now, since we're in week 10 of this tension, however it's defined, how are you going to be able to judge the inflation shock over the next few weeks until you get to that June meeting?
NEEL KASHKARI: Well, I will give you an example.
So, the price effect, the energy effect in energy prices from the Iran conflict is already, by some measures, as big or larger than when Russia invaded Ukraine. So, it's already having a big effect. And we're seeing it. You mentioned the PCE data.
We're already seeing it in the inflation numbers here at home. I talked to the CEO of a global company headquartered in Minnesota that has supply chains all around the world just last week. And they have estimated that, even if the strait reopened today, it would probably take six months for their supply chains to return to something like normal.
So I think, for the Fed, we are going to have to watch what happens in the Middle East and the inflation data very carefully. That's going to have to guide us. But if it's a six-month process for inflation returning to normal or something like normal in the best-case scenario, I'm also very concerned about something that's not the best-case scenario, and what that might do to prices here at home.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, we'll hear from Chevron's CEO later in the program. He also talks about just the many, many factors that are likely to keep energy prices elevated for some time.
In your letter that you published explaining why you dissented, you also said the labor market has been in a – quote – "low-hire, low-fire environment for some time."
Right now, we're seeing some corporate layoffs under way. And I wonder what the dynamic is that you think is playing out now and how the energy shock is going to play into it.
NEEL KASHKARI: Well, so far, recently, the labor market has shown some signs of stabilization.
So, if you look at unemployment claims and new – new unemployment claims, they're very low. The unemployment rate has been at around 4.3 percent. It's bounced around a little bit for the last six months.So it seems like mostly the labor market is moving sideways.
But the bigger the inflation shock that comes out of the Middle East, the more that's going to force Americans to cut back in their spending, because they have to pay for gas, for example. So they'll cut back other spending.
That can have a way of tamping down economic growth that even could translate into some weakness in the labor market. So, at this moment, the labor market seems like it's OK, but if this conflict is prolonged or if it gets much worse from here, then I think that could be a real downward shift to the growth trajectory to the U.S. economy. And it'll be uneven on who gets affected by that, unfortunately.
MARGARET BRENNAN: When you say prolonged, what do you mean by that? We're in week 10.
NEEL KASHKARI: Well, I mean, could it go on for months? Could it go on for the end of the year? I just don't know. I'm not a foreign policy expert, but we're watching very carefully. And
that – you know, the challenge the Fed is facing right now is really about uncertainty of the outlook for inflation, which stems back to what happens in the Middle East. And it seems like there's a great deal of uncertainty about the path ahead, from what I can read.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to ask you about what's happening with the Fed as an institution.
The Senate Banking Committee voted to advance Kevin Warsh's nomination as Federal Reserve chair. He is expected to be confirmed in mid-May. During his testimony, he said the Fed has mishandled inflation over the past few years, and he said the Fed needs a – quote – "serious shaking up with a good family fight."
Do you agree with that, there needs to be a good family fight and a change of how you do business?
NEEL KASHKARI: Well, I think we're all looking forward to Kevin concluding his confirmation process, and we look forward to working with him and hearing his ideas.
Some of the things that he's talked about, I think we are – would welcome an examination of, how we communicate. This thing that we call the dot plot he's talked about, I think many of us would like to examine that. There are things about the balance sheet and how we use the balance sheet. I think those are also – I think we would welcome a fresh examination of some of these policies.
And so I think someone coming in and saying, hey, let's reexamine how we use some of our tools, I think those are good discussions to have. I don't think we'd be physically fighting. I think that we'd have robust discussions over the benefits and the cost of these various tools, and I think that that would be worthwhile to have.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Or how you measure inflation?
NEEL KASHKARI: Well, I think that there are many different ways of measuring inflation. He has talked about in his confirmation hearing some of his preferred measures.
We are always looking at different ways of measuring inflation, and,in different moments, certain measures seem like they do a better job than others. And so I think we need to examine all of those options dispassionately and figure out, what is the best measurement tool going forward?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Quickly, the national debt is now larger than the U.S. economy. It's one – exceeds 100 percent of GDP, going towards a record here. What risk does that pose?
NEEL KASHKARI: Well, no one knows, you know, how big is the danger zone and when there's going to actually trigger some kind of a crisis.
If you look – I know you know this. If you look at the CBO's forecast for where the debt is going, it's absolutely headed to an unsustainable level. Ultimately, this is the job of our fiscal policymakers, Congress and the executive branch, to come together and put us on a – on a sound fiscal trajectory, which we're not on right now.
I don't see an immediate crisis brewing, but, at some point, it's going to be a problem. And, ultimately, our political system needs to address it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Neel Kashkari, thank you for sharing your insight this morning.
And we'll be right back with a lot more Face the Nation. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: President Trump met with oil executives this past Tuesday at the White House.
And we spoke to one of the attendees, the chairman and CEO of Chevron, Mike Wirth, a few days prior to that meeting, and we asked him to describe the global energy shock we're all experiencing.
(Begin VT)
MIKE WIRTH (CEO, Chevron): The way I would frame it is, the energy system has lost an incredible amount of flexibility. The global economy consumes about 100 million barrels of oil every day.
A barrel is 42 gallons. About 20 percent of that moves through the Strait of Hormuz. So that's been significantly disrupted. Normally, the energy system has shock absorbers in it, so we have inventory in tanks at facilities. We've got inventory on the water in ships. We've got inventory in strategic reserves.
All of those have been pulled down over the last couple of months as these events have unfolded. And what it's done is, it's taken those shock absorbers and made them much less effective in the system. And so disruptions normally are met by moving these inventories around, and price response can be muted.
As the shock absorbers are withdrawn, the shocks translate a little bit more directly. And so I think what he's referring to is, we're in a period where there's been significant supply taken out of the system, and we are facing this upward pressure on prices and volatility that is – manifested itself thus far and likely to continue.
MARGARET BRENNAN: If there is an actual negotiated end to the war, do prices come down, or is just a truce enough to give relief?
MIKE WIRTH: Well, what's really needed is for flow to resume through the Strait of Hormuz.
You can't take 20 percent of the energy out of the system – and some of it's finding its way around to the Red Sea, but there's still a substantial amount of world energy supply that is not able to flow. And – and so that's the key thing, is to restore that flow.
It allows markets to begin to rebuild these inventories. It allows us to get products to where they're needed and to alleviate some of the pressure. But that all will take time. It's a world where we get logistics of ships and pipelines and moving things around to markets around the world.
And so that's why I say I think it's going to be with us for some time, because even if the strait were to open today, getting supplies to where they're needed and resuming the normal functioning of the system is going to take some time.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It's not just the strait. Twelve refiners in the Middle East were hit by a missile or a drone attack, according to ClearView Energy. So the infrastructure itself has been damaged.
How long does it take to get production back as well?
MIKE WIRTH: Well, it's going to take in some cases weeks and months, in some cases years.
There have been – oil fields that have been just shut in because there's no place to store the oil. Sometimes, these fields – it's not like turning the tap on your faucet. These are complex reservoirs with a lot of subsurface dynamics.
So those have to be brought back carefully. There has been damage to upstream, midstream and downstream infrastructure like refineries.
MARGARET BRENNAN: When it comes to the price, when we look at what's happening out there on the markets, that's one thing. That's traders placing bets.
The American people are looking at the cost when they gas up their car. When will things return to pre-February 28 and the start of this conflict?
MIKE WIRTH: Yes, it's – one of the things I have learned in over 40 years in this industry is, predicting price is extremely difficult, even in normal times. Markets can surprise you.
This is not a normal time. The dynamics that are affecting supply are quite unusual. The potential for that to flow through into the economy, and maybe slow demand is, I think, increasing. And – and so…
MARGARET BRENNAN: People use less gas, you're saying, because of the higher price.
MIKE WIRTH: No, in certain parts of the world, it's not just gas. It's LPG for cooking in South Asia. It is jet fuel in Europe. A number of products are becoming very short in supply.
Behavior changes in a couple of ways. One, people will use less energy. Second one is people will hoard energy. Back in the '70s, I recall, during the embargo in the U.S., in my family, we would drive around with a car as full as we possibly could.
Normally, people drive around. They're comfortable with a half-a-tank or a quarter-tank of gas. And so you'll see people will hold on to supplies that otherwise they might not. They may use less. And so predicting both demand and supply in a market that's this dynamic is very difficult.
I think the key thing is, as I said before, the shock absorbers are being drained out of the system…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
MIKE WIRTH: … which means there's this upward pressure on price, because supply is getting tighter and the ability to resupply is getting more difficult, and that – that increases the likelihood of volatility as well.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So we can't say that gas prices have peaked, for example?
MIKE WIRTH: I think it's very hard to say that…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
MIKE WIRTH: .. because you have to make a bunch of assumptions about that, and it depends on what you assume.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will be back with more of our conversation with Chevron CEO Mike Wirth in a moment.
Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will be right back with a lot more Face the Nation. So, stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to Face the Nation.
Here's more now of our conversation with Chevron CEO Mike Wirth.
(Begin VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We're reading about airports running out of jet fuel. What's the reality there? What is the supply? And what does that mean for Americans who might want to travel?
MIKE WIRTH: Yes, inventories of jet fuel in certain parts of the world were at seasonally relatively low levels before the conflict began.
The Middle East refiners are significant exporters of jet fuel, particularly to Europe, where 75 percent of Europe's imported jet fuel tends to come from those refineries. It's not flowing today.
So we are seeing jet fuel tighten very quickly in Europe, in Asia, and we're seeing airlines announce adjustments in their flight schedules.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
MIKE WIRTH: We're seeing it flow through into fares. I think that's one of the first places it will be felt most broadly. I mean, we've seen some upward pressure on gasoline prices now. I think aviation is clearly an area where it's going to probably get worse over the next few weeks.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Get worse over the next few weeks, but that still – that has a lag effect. I mean, what you're saying is, if you're buying a trip to Europe, expect to pay a heck of a lot more, even if it's months from now?
MIKE WIRTH: Yes, again, I can't predict how the airlines are going to price their…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
MIKE WIRTH: … their product.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But…
MIKE WIRTH: But – but I think the upward pressure that they're seeing on prices and the – the tightness in the market is likely to lead to further route optimization.
And so flights may not be as abundant as they otherwise would have been. I think planes will probably be more full than they would have been. And, yes, fares – fares could be higher.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You're saying we don't know enough to actually make hard predictions. That's what I hear you saying.
MIKE WIRTH: Yes.
It's – you know, there's a, kind of an old axiom that, you know, I can tell you the price. I just can't tell you when.
(LAUGHTER)
MIKE WIRTH: It's just – it's very difficult to predict these things, because markets are dynamic. They can respond to things that we don't anticipate.
And the one reality is that these – these shock absorbers are not as effective as you get down to lower levels of inventory. And so I think that's going to be with us for a period of time.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, the longer the conflict or this period we're in without resolution, it's going to continue to – to weigh?
MIKE WIRTH: I think – I think it can extend these market effects.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Can you just turn on production at a moment's notice? What difference does this make to you?
MIKE WIRTH: Yes, I – you can't turn on production at a moment's notice. It takes engineering. It takes supply chains. It takes contracts and workers moving and being mobilized.
So it takes time to bring new production into the market. Our company had record production in the U.S. last year, two million barrels a day, a million barrels a day in the Permian. We're going to grow 7 to 10 percent again this year. So, we do have plans under way to deliver more oil to the market.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So the energy industry famously was at odds with the last administration, and vice versa.
In this administration, are you and your fellow CEOs calling the White House and saying, you're being too optimistic? Are you telling them how much strain there is right now?
MIKE WIRTH: Well, one thing I will say is, this is an administration that engages the business community very regularly.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
MIKE WIRTH: And it's across the board, from all different departments within the government. They seek dialogue. They seek input. And they're available and accessible in a way that I think is very, very good, particularly at a time – at a time like this.
We engage in discussions with them on a regular basis about the situation. I had discussions as recently as today about the things we're doing to try to ensure reliable supplies into – into U.S. markets. And so, yes, we – we speak on a fairly regular basis.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But you feel you can be honest and say…
MIKE WIRTH: Absolutely.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Because the president is telling the American people, gas prices aren't that high. His Cabinet is telling the American people that prices are about to come down.
You're telling me that's not that certain at all.
MIKE WIRTH: Well, yes, I'm telling you the risks kind of skew to the upside right now.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. And they know that.
MIKE WIRTH: And the opportunity is for us to, you know, see flow resume through the strait and then at the same time pursue these policies, which I think the administration really does have as a priority to continue to encourage investment in infrastructure in our economy.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The IMF director recently told us that this is going to last likely through 2026. You would say that's a fair assessment?
MIKE WIRTH: Well, this is a significant shock to the system. It is reorienting trade flows, logistics, ships. The entire system is in a state of disequilibrium right now…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
MIKE WIRTH: … that has emerged over the last several weeks. And as we get to a resolution at some point in time to establish a new equilibrium means you're going to have to resume flows.
You're going to have to restart fields, to our earlier discussion. You're going to have to get ships repositioned in places that are optimal to establish supply. So it will take some time. It's not – it's not a light switch, as you said.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And the full conversation was taped on April 23. It's available on our YouTube page, on our Web site FacetheNation.com.
We will be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We go now to Colorado Democratic Congressman Jason Crow, who's joining us from Sedona, Arizona, where he's attending the McCain Institute Forum.
Good morning to you.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW (D-Colorado): Hi. Good morning, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So I want to ask you about some developing news.
We learned late Friday that there was a decision made by Secretary Hegseth, and the two Republican chairs of the House and Senate Armed Services committees are objecting to it. They are very concerned by Hegseth's order to withdraw a U.S. brigade from Germany. They said it was not coordinated with Congress.
And, yesterday, President Trump said, on top of the 5,000 that was announced, he wants to pull even more troops out of Germany. What is the effect of doing so?
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: Well, first of all, it's not just a lack of coordination or just Congress's preference that we want this to be done. This is law.
There's actually law in place that both the House and the Senate passed on a bipartisan basis that sets certain conditions for movement of our troops around Europe.
And we passed these laws out of grave concern for rhetoric by this administration in the past that they were going to draw down our presence in Europe, which is one of the most important troop footprints we have in the world that helps secure Europe, helps secure our economy, helps protect the hundreds of thousands of American citizens who live and work on the continent.
So, we are enforcing the law and the requirements. Second is, it appears as though this decision was made because Donald Trump was upset by a comment made by the German chancellor. Like, he is getting emotional and angry about this, and he's making really consequential troop decision – troop movement decisions based upon being upset by the comments of a foreign leader, which is no way to run a foreign policy.
So we're looking into it, and we're going to make sure that any movements, if they do occur, are actually in our interests.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You were talking about the chancellor of Germany saying that "A whole nation is being humiliated by the Iranian leadership."
I mean, that's a pretty strong statement from an ally. But, in regard to pulling troops out of that country, we'll still have at least 30,000 troops or so in Germany. Isn't that still within the legal framework? I believe that the floor is set to 76,000 in Europe, but the president can go below it if he certifies to Congress it's in the national interest.
Why do you think there is a violation?
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: Well, that's exactly the assessment we have to go through.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: You know, what we know is that the president is making a decision based upon a comment that he didn't like by a foreign leader.
So that alone is very concerning to us. It should be concerning to every American that you have the president of the United States, a commander in chief, who's going to move thousands of troops around just to get back at a foreign leader for a comment that he doesn't like.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: But I'm not presumptively against troop movements. Like, if we need to move troops or brigades around to respond to national security issues, we should by all means do that. That's the prerogative of the commander in chief.
When I was in the military, we would move forces around all the time. My point is, we actually have to make sure that this is being done according to the risks that our forces are facing, that it's being done on the proper timeline, because moving troops and units around is very risky and exposes them to a variety of risks, and that it's in the best interest of the United States.
And, right now, sitting here, what we know is that this isn't a decision that's driven by the best interests of our troops and Americans. It's a decision based upon the emotion of Donald Trump.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you think the U.S. can end the war or whatever we're in with Iran right now without clearing that Strait of Hormuz? Do you expect a return to combat?
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: Well, first of all, it's Iran that's blockading the Strait of Hormuz. We're blockading their blockade.
I think the real question that we should all be asking is, does America really want to continue to have conflict in the Middle East for another you know five, 10, 20 years? The problem is, is that we have confused as a nation…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Why would it go long?
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: We have confused as a nation tactics versus strategy.
Most of the conversation around Iran is about tactics. Should we blockade? How do we counter drones? You know, who is moving oil around where?
What is our strategy, right? We spent trillions of dollars in Iraq and Afghanistan to replace the Taliban with the Taliban, in Iraq to replace Saddam Hussein with ISIS. We are not good at having off-ramps and accomplishing large strategic decisions in the Middle East, right?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: And this is just yet another example of that.
So let's actually talk strategy and what it is we're trying to accomplish here, instead of having a constant discussion around blockades.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, when Secretary Hegseth was before your committee this week and he was asking for this $1.5 trillion budget request, are Democrats going to say no until they get those answers? Or do you have to fund the troops who are in harm's way?
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: Well, I'm just going to say no regardless of, you know, what's going on in one area, because we don't need that money, right?
The Department of Defense has never passed an audit, never in the history of that department. It is the only government agency in the U.S. government that cannot tell us…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Don't you need to restock munitions?
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: … how they're spending money.
We have already – we have already funded munition stockpiles amounts. And what I am not going to do is continue the pattern, like we continued in Iraq and Afghanistan, of throwing good money after bad…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: … and constantly funding conflicts that never end and will not end up in a good result for America, right?
That is exactly what we did in Iraq and Afghanistan. And somebody has to say, enough is enough. Somebody has to step up and say, we're just not going to do it. And a president that hasn't told us what the strategy is, hasn't come to Congress for authorization, hasn't even articulated to the American people what he's trying to accomplish, I am not going to write blank checks to have that cycle continue. I'm not going to do it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to ask you about another decision.
Section 702 is that warrantless surveillance program that's used to collect communications of foreigners abroad when they're – including when they're interacting with Americans. Your Democratic colleague Jim Himes, who is in that powerful position on House Intelligence, called it the most important foreign intelligence tool America has.
He said he has seen no evidence that the Trump administration is misusing it. Yet you have voted no on a long-term extension. What evidence do you have of abuse or violations of it?
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: Well, here's the problem we have.
Jim Himes is right. This is an incredibly important tool that helps prevent terrorist attacks. It gives us intelligence on our adversaries and helps protect our troops, which is why I have always supported it.
But, right now, in the last year, we have seen a president that routinely ignores legal decisions. You know, they are – they are ignoring more than a third of court rulings against them, routinely violating the law. Hell, in February, they actually politicized DOJ and they tried to put me in prison. They tried to indict me and other members of Congress simply first stating what the law is and what the obligation of our service members are.
I am deeply concerned…
MARGARET BRENNAN: But your committee chair is begging for it to be extended and saying there's no misuse of it.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: Well, what I am saying is, I am not willing to give a very long runway to this administration on a very powerful intelligence tool, when they have routinely shown to the American people and to us that they violate the law and they don't respect the law.
(CROSSTALK)
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: And I will do a short-term extension, and then we will oversee that program, and we will guarantee – I will look at it hard every single month.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: And if they're abusing it, if they're straying from the law, then we pull it back.
But giving them a three-year runway gets rid of all of our leverage. If we give them a three-year reauthorization…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: … what are we going to do if, a year from now, 18 months from now…
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: … they start violating the program and abusing it? We have no recourse.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right. Well, right now, it goes until June 12 with this short-term extension.
[Jason Crow, thank you, Congressman, for joining us this morning.
We'll be back in a moment.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Last week, in a 6-3 decision, the Supreme Court struck down a Louisiana congressional map that had been gerrymandered to create a second majority-black district.
The three liberal justices dissented, saying the ruling would – quote – "eviscerate" a section of the landmark 1965 Voting Rights Act, while conservatives in the majority said the decision updated its legal framework.
Reverend Raphael Warnock, Democratic senator from the state of Georgia, joins us this morning from Atlanta.
Welcome back to the program.
SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK (D-Georgia): Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, our CBS News legal analyst described this decision as narrowing the application of Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act.
Effectively, it means it's now going to be harder to bring any lawsuits claiming that gerrymandering discriminates along racial lines unless there is proof of that intent. Why do you call that a defeat for American democracy?
SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK: Margaret, let's be clear.
What happened this week is nothing less than a massive and devastating blow, not only to our democracy, but particularly to people of color in the South.
This question about intent is, on its head, misleading, and it ignores our history. We had 100 years after the 15th Amendment was passed, which on paper gave black people the right to vote. But with supposedly or putatively race-neutral methods, for 100 years, the right to vote was denied.
But, in more recent history, the Supreme Court, this same conservative Supreme Court, hobbled Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act in 2013 with Shelby v. Holder. Since then, we've seen the racial turnout gap get wider and wider, not smaller, and it has grown twice as fast in the states that used to be under Section 5.
We will see a devastating impact as a result of this, and now, more than ever, we've got to stand up and fight for our democracy.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But, as you just said, the Voting Rights Act has been, you know, weighed by the court multiple times, including back in 2013.
But when it was originally written, there were things in place that – that don't exist now, right? There was – there was a poll tax in Southern states. The law required nine of those states to go get federal approval or preclearance before they changed their own voting rules.
Congress in the '80s updated this law. Are you of the opinion that the law needs to stand as it was originally written, or does Congress now need to do some work to update it?
SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK: Listen, I – I know that there are those who are tired of the remedy.
I'm tired of racism. I think it's a strange position to be more concerned about the medicine than you are about the malady. In – in that recent history, Roberts wrote in 2013 when they gutted Section 5, that – that this racial turnout gap had – had gone away.
And Ruth Bader Ginsburg, she said, look, getting rid of the protections of the Voting Rights law, in this moment, it's like getting rid of your umbrella in the midst of a rainstorm because you're not getting wet.
And since then, again, since then – everybody's entitled to their own opinions. You're not entitled to your own facts. Since then, the racial voter turnout has grown larger and twice as larger – twice as large in the states that were under Section 5. And that – there's a reason for that, Margaret.
Since they removed the protections of Section 5, states that used to play old games, they're playing – they're playing new games. They're 21st Century Jim Crow tactics in new clothes, moving voter polls…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK: … closing polls in black and brown communities.
The data shows that black and brown people spend much longer time, in longer lines, purging people, people literally showing up and not knowing that their names have been purged from the rolls. And the data shows that this disproportionately impacts black and brown citizens.
And now…
MARGARET BRENNAN: So…
SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK: … as a result of the decision this week, they're saying that, even when you show up, we have – we have given the green light, so that politicians can play games with the lines, so that even when you overcome those barriers and show up…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK: … your voices will be muted.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, it sounds like you want to go back to the letter of the law from 1965. You want Congress to once again reinstitute preclearance for these Southern states. That's what I just heard you lay out.
SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK: I – well, yes, that was – absolutely.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. OK.
SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK: Absolutely.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right, so when I – want to point something out to you, which is that the current Congress, statistically, in 2025 has a record high number, 66 black members, according to Pew Research, including five Republicans.
That's the most to ever serve in Congress. People will look at that and say, we are in a different country than we were, as – as Roberts once argued, as you just pointed out. Now that we are in this redistricting arms race that both parties are playing with here, do you think that will hurt black representation?
SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK: I think that the court sadly, poured fuel on this redistricting arms race.
The solution to this really…
MARGARET BRENNAN: To be clear…
SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK: … in my opinion…
MARGARET BRENNAN: … you support redistricting that your party is carrying out?
SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK: I – I do, because Donald Trump, who is better at dividing us than anybody I know, instituted an arms race in redistricting.
But I actually hate partisan gerrymandering. I – I don't like gerrymandering. But we could not unilaterally disarm. He's the one who called Texas and said, literally, give me six more seats.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK: And so California and other states had to respond, Virginia, in kind.
But the solution to this really is to ban partisan gerrymandering. Gerrymandering turns our elections on its head, so that, rather than the people picking their politicians…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right…
SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK: or their public servants, the politicians are picking their voters.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right, exactly, which is why I'm asking you how you could support it. But I understand you're saying the context of the moment is an emergency.
SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK: Well…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Let me ask you…
SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK: Well, we could – I have a bill, though, Margaret. I have a bill…
MARGARET BRENNAN: I saw that bill, yes.
SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK: … right now that would get – that would get rid of partisan gerrymandering. And, so far, I have had no Republican takers.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, as we just said, your party is supporting the partisan redistricting in places like California and Virginia as well.
Congressman Byron Donalds of Florida said: "Democrats do not care about black representation. They only care about Democrat representation."
Here's what Congressman Wesley Hunt of Texas said when he was asked about the decision of the four black Republicans to leave Congress.
(Begin VT)
REPRESENTATIVE WESLEY HUNT (R-Texas): I represent a white majority district that President Trump would have won by over 20 points, and I won by 25 points the last time I ran. I'm being judged not by the color of my skin, but by the content of my character.
I don't care how many black people are here. I want the most qualified people that are here.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: So what do you make of the argument that you just heard there from Congressman Hunt?
SENATOR RAPHAEL WARNOCK: That he doesn't understand American history.
No one – he's quoting the words of Dr King. No one was more committed to a country that embraces all of us than Dr. King. But Dr King, looking at that reality, is the one who is the moral power behind the Voting Rights Act of 1965.
Our covenant as an American people is e pluribus unum, out of many, one. And so this notion that representation does not matter ignores history. It ignores the facts. It's uninformed.
Representation does matter. When I – when I go to the Senate every week, I bring my story and my experience as a black kid who grew up in public housing in Savannah, and so does that white kid who grew up in – in Appalachia. She brings her experience too.
And so when – when we create an increasing monolith, which is what I think is going to happen as a result of these – this decision this week, we hurt the democracy itself, and we make it harder to get at a policy, policies that embrace all of our children and give every child a chance.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator, we'll leave it there. We'll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: That's it for us today. Thank you all for watching.
Until next week, for Face the Nation, I'm Margaret Brennan.
