Extended Interview: Shooter Jennings

It really seems to-- It definitely does.

--hit deep. I mean, I'm proud of him and I'm proud of the work that I'm doing. And I'm proud of the legacy he's left behind because he just was a good guy and people loved him. It's got to be amazing for you to just think back to when you heard your father in this space, singing songs you had never heard. Yeah, it was such a weird thing. I'd had these recordings of my dad's for years. In 2008, they had taken all of his reels of tape and converted them to digital archives. And I had a copy of them, but I never had any way to really get into it and spend the time. I didn't have a studio that was really capable enough. And I found myself here at Sunset Sound on a residency with a month that opened up. And I said, I think this is the time to dive in. Me and Nate Hazeley, my assistant here, went in and started just going through all the stuff. I had one song that I knew about. It was a JJ Cale cover called I'd Like to Love You, Baby. I had heard it when I was young. I thought, at the very least, I'll find that song in here. And I just started going. And one after another, it was something I'd never heard. And it was Songbird by Fleetwood Mac. Or it would be like this song. I had no idea what it was. It was not a cover. And so it was really, really surreal and really special to me, because here I was in this legendary studio into my dad's files and seeing all of this work, this 10-year body of work with him in his prime. And it was really awesome. It was like a whole other chapter with my dad. There's a sense of discovery in this project, but also so much emotion. It's hard to listen, Shooter, to a song like Songbird and not just swell up.

Yeah. You know what I'm talking about. Yeah, it was very emotional. When I heard that song Songbirdthe first time, it was probably about the fourth or fifth thing I opened. So it was really early on that I found it. And when I realized what song it was, I mean, yeah, I cried instantly when I heard it because the way-- it's so emotional, the way he sings it. And what I found about that song is when I would play it for other people, they would always cry in the same spot. It just had to do with his voice and how he sang these songs, I think. It was that way. And with the first album with Songbird, we have this other one, Diamonds,coming out. And with Songbird,I knew that was going to be the cry record. I knew that was going to be the one that was going to emotionally move people, and I really wanted it to be that way. Because once I saw this body of work, I started setting them aside into several records. And so I knew that one was going to be very emotional. What is it about your father's voice, whether it's you or me listening to Songbird, our breath is just kind of taken away. Man, I don't know what I would say it is. I mean, the way he sang, he was such an emotional singer. There are songs in this batch where it's just him sitting there singing a song. It's wild, because if you hung out with him, he was like a kid. He was like the sweetest, funniest guy. He's intimidating, had intimidating presence, but was would get everybody disarmed immediately and make everybody feel comfortable. So when you hear those songs, you think of somebody, you romanticize this guy who's like, gosh, the emotion in this. But it was just natural for him. He just felt music and could sing it, and it moves people. Some people are like that. It's like Elvis could sing a song and it would just bring people to tears. And I think he had a way about it that was just a pure connection with it. It's almost like everyone rediscovers or discovers your father when they listen to these songs. Because if you don't know his music too much, some people, when they think about Waylon Jennings, they think of a beard and a black jacket and the highwayman and the idea of an outlaw. But you listen to Songbird and all of these songs, there's this throbbing heart, this gentle spirit. Yeah, that's a really good way of putting it. I mean, he was a gentle spirit to begin with. But that was part of the thing about Songbirdand Diamonds and these other projects is that the thing that was so important, when somebody is gone, there tends to be-- the public remembrance of them can be distorted. Like you said, people can remember the outlaw part of it or can remember this and they could fantasize about what he was like. But he's not here to represent himself. But what I felt was so important about all this is you saw how much he loved music by singing these songs like Songbird. It was because he loved those songs and he connected with them, he wanted to sing them. And all he cared about was music. It wasn't about image, it wasn't about money. It wasn't about anything beyond wanting to be great at music and wanting to play music, and hearing something and chasing it for your whole life. That's what is so important for people to remember. And I think being able to hear his voice again, being able to hear his choices in the studio and realizing like, wow, it's not a bunch of songs about getting drunk. It's like emotional, beautiful material about love and life and things like that. And that's what he connected with was the music and the lyrics and the dream. The idea of an outlaw, it's been almost a caricature for years. But when I listened to this record, I reevaluate, rethink that term. He was an outlaw in the sense of going against this obsession with marketing, branding. It was prolific output song after song, going back to his childhood. I mean, he just loved music. Yeah, I mean, he was a DJ at 13 years old and in Lubbock. It was like he was obsessed with music from the minute he heard it. And then Buddy Holly taught him so much about it. Taught him about just how to play shows and what music was about. And Buddy only cared about the music, too. He was excited about making exciting new sounds in rock and roll. That wasn't even really a thing at that time. And so I think with him, the reevaluating the outlaw thing is a really interesting thing to say because it is true. Because there's so many artists that because they were named-- it was branding. That was the system figuring out a name to label them to sell it. And they didn't like that. They didn't like the outlaw term. Sure, it was cool and people thought it was cool. But to them, they were trying to be considered as seriously as everyone else, of all of their heroes, as Faron Young or of Carl Smith or of Hank Williams. They were reaching for what those guys were doing. And I think the outlaw thing was a distraction a bit. So I think him and Willie both didn't love it. But at the same time, it is a moniker that allows some people that are maybe not great to just latch onto and be like, I'm an outlaw. So again, it was like I wanted to remind people that this was about the music and these are the choices he's making. And you see what he's singing about and you see what he's doing, and it reminds people how much soul and heart was there, like you said. Buddy Holly, in our culture, he's like Marilyn Monroe. He's this icon. You go buy shops in Hollywood, they'll have Buddy Holly postcards. But he was more than just an idea or an image to your father. He was a friend, a mentor. Yeah, he was his best friend. And my dad always told me, he said, not a day went by that he didn't think about Buddy.

Not a day. What did he say about Buddy? What was he thinking about? I mean, he just admired him. He admired him. And he hated that he was gone. But he would talk about things that Buddy would say. He said, always leave them wanting more. Don't play too long of a show. Or that there's call yourself pop. Because if you're pop, you can be rock, you can be blues, you can be whatever you want. You're not boxed into a thing. Just call yourself a pop artist and you'll be able to do whatever you want. So he was getting this kind of life lesson story from one of the pioneers of rock and roll in real time. And I think after that point, I think he after he after Buddy died, I think it was almost like my dad felt like that-- I don't mean this in a negative way, but almost like when somebody feels like they've escaped death, they kind of feel like-- He was about to get on that plane. Yeah. He was about to get on the plane, and he's thinking that he's-- dead man walking is a bad term to use. But what I mean is, once you feel like you already escaped death once, his resolve was unstoppable at that point. Because I think he felt like he shouldn't have been alive, at first. So he felt like he was going to do the right thing. You know what I mean? Did he live with the pain from Buddy Holly's death from then on? He did. But there was some interesting pieces to that. First of all, he didn't play music for a minute. It was like almost several years that he just was very upset. And the last conversation that had was like, I hope your bus breaks down and you freeze to death. And he says, I hope your whole plane crashes. Did your dad tell you about that conversation? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yes, he talked to me about that a bit. There was a guy, he says in his book, but there was a DJ at that same station named Highpockets that told him, can you bring him back? And he said, no. He goes, then you couldn't have killed him. If you didn't have the power to bring him back, you didn't have the power to kill him. And he kind of went through it, but then came out the other side of it. But I really do think that is what created this armor for him to really fight in battle for his own music in a way. Because I think he felt like, now, it was do or die at that point. He was so authentic to himself, he never did something that wasn't the way he wanted to do it. And I think that's the lesson in all of this for every artist out there is that you've got to-- if you just do you and stick to you, it will eventually will work. It's like, you got to believe in that first. He did everything his way. But was it ever to a fault? Not in my opinion. He never hurt his career. I mean, to me, I think he did his career and his life perfectly, in my opinion. I think that whether you can pick a thing here or there that hurt this or that, he did it so 100% from the heart that it has stayed the test of time and will stay the test of time because it's real. There was an integrity to the way he lived his life. Sometimes he had a little fun in the sense of holding to it. I think about him walking out of We Are The World.

Oh, yeah. I'll tell you about that. I knew about that my whole life. And I had had conversations with him about that because-- it's funny, everybody sent me the documentary, and I loved it. Lionel Richie loved my dad. And I've gotten to hang out with him and talk to him about my dad. So I love that he was the one kind of telling that story. If you really want to know what was really about, it was, when my dad went to go do it, it was supposed to be a really good thing to do. And he was happy to be a part of it. But he said that once he was there, he started like-- I mean, he said he saw Bruce Springsteen walked in. And he said he was hair and makeup ready, had a leather jacket on and tight jeans and an entourage and cameras all around him. And he goes, this isn't about the kids. That's the first thing he thought. He thought, this is about the look of this. And I'm not meaning to diss Bruce. I love Bruce. But this was the moment he said that. And then he said so by the time it got to be 4:00 in the morning and they were like, let's do it in Swahili, he was like, I'm out of here. I've been here all day. This has been too long. And they're going to keep going and make him try to learn a language or something. And I think he was already like, I can't speak any other languages. He felt like it was a photo op ego moment for a lot of these guys. And he didn't want any part of that. And later, I was on the bus with him and Paul Simon walked in. And he goes, he said, Waylon, every one of us wanted to walk out of that thing, and you were the only one that had the balls to do it. So that was the story that I had been told on it. He loved all those guys as artists. I mean, Paul especially and him were very close, and Bob and all those guys. And he loved being a part of it. But he said at one point, it seemed like this was an ego trip more than it was something, so he didn't want to hang for that. What is your given name? Waylon Albright Jennings. So you carry your father's name. And Richie's name.

And Richie's name. But everybody calls you Shooter. How did you get the name Shooter? Shooter Jennings. It's a cool name, but how did you get it? My parents nicknamed me Shooter the minute I was born. My dad always used to say was because I peed on the nurse when I was born. Which did happen. That's where Shooter comes from? That's what he would always say. You were an outlaw from the first moment you were on this Earth. [LAUGHTER] If that's what that makes me. Your career, you didn't just go straight into country. You have done a lot. How did your father shape your own journey? He loved rock, blues, country. How did his music, his legacy, shape your own path? That's an interesting question. I could actually say that his legacy shaped my path by making me want to go somewhere and find myself, in a way, musically. Not that his legacy was oppressive or anything. But as a kid growing up in Nashville-- look, my dad was amazing because he didn't sit down and teach me how to play guitar and tell me this. He just gave me space to be me and to figure out who I was going to be. And in that way, I discovered like MTV and was very much an MTV kid. And rock and roll was huge to me. So as I got older I would play him music I liked, and he'd play me music he liked. So we have this really great musical relationship. He was into what I would be into, and he was into a wide range of stuff. We watched Woodstock '94 together and he loved Primus, and he bought Pork Sodaby Primus. And was like, listen to that all the time in his car. And then he played Lollapalooza in '96. Yeah, because he met James Hetfield and those guys brought him out. And I played on stage in those, actually. I played keys during those shows, which was really cool. But his legacy definitely like-- I think his love of music shaped my mind enough to feel that-- he didn't ever try to dissuade me or push me into music. He was worried about me once I got into music because he knew how bad it was, the business was. And how hard it would be, probably for me. But if anything, I think just his childlike love of music-- and here's another thing. A lot of people I know who have famous parents, their parents love their own recordings. My dad did not listen to his own music. He listened to other people's music. If I heard music in the house, it would be like Dire Straits, or it would be some song he'd found that he liked or something. Or it'd be something he was thinking of cutting. You know what I mean, he'd be listening to? But he was a very, very like a kid with music. So I was given an example in him of somebody who had made it by being true to themselves and loving music and pursuing it. And so I think in that way, I felt that I could just do that. I didn't play country at first. At the time, when I was little, when I was that age, country was like Garth Brooks and stuff. And I was not into that at all. That was not my scene. And so I was in Guns N' Roses and Nine Inch Nails and all these kind of bands. You end up producing Duff McKagan? Yeah. And got to work with a lot of these guys that I idolized, which was really awesome because they all turned out to be such great people who were better than I hoped. What was cool was I felt like if I just moved to LA, I could find my way. You know what I mean? I would know who I was. I wouldn't have people hawking, trying to get me to go into country because I'm Waylon's kid. Nobody gave a shit out here. The only person that actually knew who I was was Jerry Cantrell, because he was a big Waylon fan. And I met him at a bar and he was like, are you a Jennings? And I was like, yeah. And he was like, right on. And he was nice to me every time. From Alice in Chains? Yeah, from Alice in Chains. Yeah, I love him. What is it when you really think about it? It's been almost a quarter century since your father left. Yeah. You keep tending the fire of his music, his legacy, what he was all about. You just keep going back and finding songs, cultivating records. Yeah.

What keeps you going? Is it love? Is it something about the music? I love my dad's music. I definitely have a love for him. I mean, I think I want everybody to know the guy I know. And anytime I found like something here or there that had been unreleased or a live show, I've always put it out. Because I think John Carter Cash has done a really good job with Johnny's legacy. And I kind look at him as a model. And Waylon, we haven't been in as many like targets and stuff merchandise wise and stuff. But we have a good business. But it's always been family run. We've never had a management company until recently that's come in and been involved. And primarily, it's been over these records. And so we've always kept it close to the family. I just feel I'm in a place to be able to do it. I think that's really what it is. You got there? I'm in a place where I'm in this studio and I'm able to do all this and I'm able to put this out there and people will get it and hear it. So I feel like that should be my purpose, in a way, to do that. You know what I mean? What do you want to play now? OK, Diamondsis the new album, and there's a song called Diamonds. It's the first song on the album. And this song that-- it was very elusive, because I could not figure out who it was or what it was at first. I didn't know it was my dad's band at first. It sounded like something else. I knew it was my dad, but he sounded different. And there's talking and cutting up on it. And after finding out and listening to the end of the song where my dad actually says it, Glen Campbell and him went in the studio in December of '78 and came up with this song and cut it with the band, and it never came out. And it's got Glen Campbell on guitar. And you're going to hear Glen Campbell at the very top of the song talking to the band. This is an anomaly. Here we go. [MUSIC PLAYING]

Ernest Angel loves me.

Don't. Don't. [INAUDIBLE] to your head. Just [INAUDIBLE]. Are you rolling? One. Two. One. Come in when you want to. [WAYLON JENNINGS, "DIAMONDS"] Didn't I give you diamonds Didn't I give you stars Give up my drinking Fighting in bars I have looked for you high, girl Looked for you low Oh, my lady Where did you go [MUSIC PLAYING]