Text Of Lewinsky Testimony (2)
This is part two of extensive excerpts from the grand jury testimony of Monica Lewinsky. As her testimony begins, Lewinsky has asked the grand jurors to call her Monica.
A. I'm just 25. Please.
Q. JUROR: But you'll always be Ms. Lewinsky, whether you're 25 or 28 or ...
A. Not if I get married.
Q. JUROR: Monica, why did you keep that black dress?
A. Blue.
Q. JUROR: Blue dress. Did you have a reason to keep it?
A. No. I didn't have a reason. The reason the dress, I didn't realize; If I remember correctly, I didn't really realize that there was anything on it until I went to go wear it again and I had gained too much weight that I couldn't fit into it.
And it seemed sort of funny and it may sound silly, I have a lot of clothes. I don't clean all my clothes right after I wear them, I usually don't clean them until I know I'm going to wear them again. And then I was going to wear it for Thanksgiving because I had lost weight and I had, I had shown the dress to Linda at that point and had just sort of said to her, "Well, isn't this" -- you know -- "Isn't this stupid?" Or, you know, "Look at this, isn't this gross?" or whatever. I don't really remember exactly what I said.
And she told me that I should put it in a safe deposit box because it could be evidence one day.
And I said that was ludicrous because I would never, I would never disclose that I had a relationship with the president, I would never need it.
And then when Thanksgiving time came around and I told her that I was going to wear it for Thanksgiving, she told me I looked fat in the dress, I shouldn't wear it. She brought me a jacket from her closet to try to persuade me not to wear the dress.
So I ended up not wearing it and then I was going to clean it. I took it with me up to New York and was going to clean it up there and then this broke, so ...
Q. JUROR: Okay. Your relationship with the President, did your mother at any time try to discourage the relationship?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. JUROR: Well, what kept it going? I mean, what kept it you keeping it active or whatever?
A. I fell in love. ...
Q. JUROR: When you look at it now, was it love or a sexual obsession?
A. More love with a little bit of obsession. But definitely love.
Q. JUROR: Did you think that the president was in love with you also?
A. There was an occasion when I left the White House and I was pretty stunned at how I felt because I did think that.
Q. JUROR: And today, Monica, do you still love the president?
A. Before Monday, I would have said yes.
Q. JUROR: So then it is no?
A. I don't know how I feel right now.
Q. JUROR: I guess I would like to know what happened Monday to make you just by Thursday change your mind so completely.
A. I don't think it's so much changed my mind. I think it's -- it was very painful for me to watch his seech on Monday night. I, it's, it's hard for me to feel that he has characterized this relationship as a service contract and that that was never something that I ever thought it was. ...
Q. JUROR: Well, let's -- you said the relationship was more than oral sex. I mean, it wasn't like you went out on dates or anything like that like normal people, so what more was it?
A. Oh, we spent hours on the phone talking. It was emotional.
Q. JUROR: Phone sex?
A. Not always. On a few occasions. I mean, we were talking. I mean, interacting. I mean, talking about what we were thinking and feeling and doing and laughing. We were very affectionate, even when, after he broke the relationship off in May, I mean, when I'd go to visit with him, we'd you know, we'd hug each other a lot.
You know, he always used to like to stroke my hair. He, we'd hold hands. We'd smile a lot. I just, I thought he had a beautiful soul. I just thought he was just this incredible person, and when I looked at him I saw a little boy, and I don't know what the truth is any more.
Q. JUROR: I'm not understanding these two different things because one time you're sentimental but then again you do just the opposite of what you say you're thinking. Did you ever think that anything real could and truthful and honest could have come from this relationship?
A. Yes.
Q. JUROR. With this married man?
A. I did.
Q. JUROR: It's been reported in the papers that you had a relationship before similar to this, where a lot of hurt and pain came out of this, you know, a lot of hurt and pain toward a family. I can't figure out why you keep going after things that aren't free, that aren't obtainable.
A. That's a hard question to answer because obviously there's, there's work that I need to do on myself. There are obviously issues that, that, you know, a single young woman doesn't have an affair with a married man because she's normal, quote-unquote. But I think most people have issues and that's just how mine manifested themselves. It's something I need to work on and I don't think it's right, it's not right to have an affair with a married man. I never expected to fall in love with the president. I was surprised that I did.
And I didn't -- my intention had really been to come to Washington and start over and I didn't want to have another affair with a married man because it was really painful. It was horrible. And I feel even worse about it now.
No one likes to have their weaknesses splayed out for the entire world, you know, but I understand that. And I'd rather you understand where I'm coming from, you know, and you'd probably have to know me better and know my whole journey to how I got here from birth to now to really understand it.
Q. JUROR: As I understood our discussion this morning, you said that you offered to deny the relationship and the president didn't discourage you but said something like "Tat's good."
As I read your proffer here, it says "The president told Ms. L to deny a relationship if ever asked." And that seems to me slightly different.
A. I forgot this. So that's true.
Q. JUROR: Is this proffer statement correct, that he did tell you to deny a relationship?
A. Yes. I don't, I don't, when I answered the question earlier, that was what first came to my mind. But, I mean, I know that this is true.
I just at that point and I, really reading it I know it's true because I was truthful in my proffer, but sitting here right now, I can't remember exactly when it was, but it was something that was certainly discussed between us.
Q. JUROR: And what about the next sentence also? Something to the effect that if two people who are involved say it didn't happen, it didn't happen. Do you recall him saying that to you?
A. Sitting here today, very vaguely. ... And I can hear his voice saying that to me, I just can't place it.
Q. JUROR: Is it...
A. And this was obviously not something that we discussed too often, I think, because it was, it's a somewhat unpleasant thought of having to deny it, having it even come to that point, but...
JUROR: Is it possible that you also had these discussions after you learned that you were a witness in the Paula Jones case?
A. I don't believe so. No. ...
Q. JUROR: I have some questions about the Paula Jones lawsuit. Going back to the period before you even had any idea that you might be a witness in that, did you follow the Paula Jones lawsuit fairly closely?
A. I followed it. I didn't follow it as much as I follow this case.
Q. JUROR: Did you in that period again, even before anyone knew that you would be a witness, did you discuss that with the president? Was he aware that you followed it?
A. No. Really, the time that I remember we discussed it was on the 17th. When I told him my sort of stupid idea for how he should settle it. When we spent time together, I know I certainly made an effort unless I was angry with him about something, that there were topics that I wanted to stay away from, and the time that I spent with him was precious to me. So things that were unpleasant I didn't bring up unless I had to.
Q. JUROR: Exactly what date again did you get your subpoena to be a witness?
A. The 19th of December.
Q. JUROR: The 19th? Okay. Retell for me the conversation you had with the president about the gifts.
A. Okay. It was December 28th and I was there to get my Christmas gifts from him. And we spent maybe about five minutes or so, not very long, talking about the case. I said to him that it had really alarmed me about the hat pin being in the subpoena and I think he said something like, "Oh, you know, that sort of bothered me, too."
And at one point, I said, "Well, do you think I should, I don't think I said 'get rid of.' I said, "But do you tink I should put away or maybe give to Betty or give to someone the gifts?"
I don't remember his response. I think it was something like, "I don't know," or "Hmm" or there really was no response. I know that I didn't leave the White House with any notion of what I should do with them, that I should do anything different than that they were sitting in my house. And then later I got the call from Betty.
Q. JUROR: Now, did you bring up Betty's name or did the president bring up Betty's name?
A. I think I brought it up.
Q. JUROR: Thank you.
PROSECUTOR: I think there was a question in the front. Did you have a question?
Q. JUROR: Yes. Back to the contacts?
A. Yes.
Q. JUROR: On page 7, on the 29th of March ...
JUROR: "Private encounter, approximately 1:30 or 2:00 p.m., study. President on crutches. Physical intimacy including oral sex to completion and brief direct genital contact." Brief direct genital contact, could you just elaborate on that a bit?
A. Uh...
JUROR: I understand...
A. Oh, my gosh. This is so embarrassing.
JUROR: You could close your eyes and talk.
JUROR: We won't look at you.
A. Can I hide under the table? Uh, I had, I had wanted I tried to, I placed his genital next to mine and had hoped that if he, oh, this is just too embarrassing.
Q. JUROR: Did you think it would lead to intercourse?
A. Not on that day.
Q. JUROR: Was that sort of the reason for doing the gesture?
A. Yes.
Q. JUROR: Or trying to moving his closer to yours?
A. Then I, not that we would have intercourse that day, but that that might make him want to.
Q. JUROR: OK. Were you wearing clothes at the time or underwear at the time?
A. No.
Q. JUROR: And was he? Or his were pulled down?
A. Correct.
Q. JUROR: So was there direct skin-to-skin contact between your genitals and his?
A. I think very briefly. It was -- he's really tall and he couldn't really bend because of his knee, so it was...
Q. JUROR: It was more of a grazing?
A. Yes.
Q. JUROR: About how many encounters did you have in the study? If you can recall.
PROSECUTOR: What do you mean by "encounters"?
Q. JUROR: Sexual encounters. I'm sorry.
A. Do you include kissing or not?
Q. JUROR: No kissing. According to the definition.
A. OK. Two.
JUROR: OK. Thank you.
PROSECUTOR: And why don't you give us the dates of those.
A. The -- well, let me look. The 29th of March and the 28th of February. There might have been -- I mean, in terms of the clothes and stuff, there might have been playful touches here and there, but not, nothing that I would have considered sexual encounters.
Q. And that's not listed as an intimate encounter?
A. No. No, it's not. No, it's not.
Q. And just to clarify again, are those the wo times that the President actually came to completion during the oral sex?
A. Yes.
PROSECUTOR: And I'm actually obliged to ask one follow up that I don't think will be too bad, but directing your attention to August 16th, did you attempt to touch the president on that day?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you actually touch him? In his groin area?
A. Over his clothes.
Q. Over his clothes. And did he say that's not -- "We can't do that" ?
A. Yes.
PROSECUTOR: Okay.
Q. JUROR: Did you feel any rejection the times that he wouldn't go all the way with you?
A. Yes.
Q. JUROR: Monica, I had one question to go back to the gifts. You had said that the president had called you initially to come get your Christmas gift.
JUROR: So you had initiated the contact on that day?
A. He had, he had told me on the 17th that he, you know, he still had these Christmas gifts for me. But when Betty called, then she said, you know, "I understand you have something to give me." It was very vague.
So I put them all out on my bed and it's sort of been difficult to kind of explain why I put some things in and why I didn't put others in.
The things that seemed to be directly called for in the subpoena I put in a box: the hat pin, the dress from Martha's Vineyard, some of the pictures and things, the ad to him from Valentine's Day. Not that that was directly called for, but some of the more intimate I guess personal things, except that I kept the Leaves of Grass book because that just -- I was worried, I didn't know if I would get the gifts back or not, ever, and so I, that just, that meant the most to me of anything he gave me.
Q. JUROR. And just to back up for a second on your conversation with the president ... the president said he was concerned about that also when he saw the hat pin. Is that correct?
A. I know that the hat pin was a concern to him.
Q. JUROR. OK. Do you remember what he said in response when you said you were concerned about the things called for in the subpoena?
A. I think he said something like "That concerned me, too." ...
Q. JUROR. I have another question about that conversation on the 28th. You had already discussed with him earlier the subpoena and the fact that all of your gifts from him were under subpoena and then ...
A. We hadn't discussed that. I wasn't, I hadn't, the 28th was the first time that I saw him or spoke to him since I had been subpoenaed. When he called me on the 17th, I wasn't yet subpoenaed.
Q. JUROR. OK. OK. So that conversation took place on the 28th?
A. Correct. The only conversation about 15 gifts and the subpoena, really, yes.
Q. JUROR: And on that same day, he gave you Christmas gifts.
A. Yes.
Q. JUROR: What was your thinking at that time about that? Did that concern you or ...
A. No.
Q. JUROR: What did you pan to do with those gifts? Did it cross your mind that you should maybe give some of them to your attorney as responsive to the subpoena or ...
A. No.
Q. JUROR: Going back to your conversation with Linda Tripp. If you had to put it, like, percentage-wise, what you told her as being truthful and not truthful, what percentage will be not truthful?
A: Before December of '97, I'd say 95 percent accurate. There were some things that I didn't tell her, but I usually pretty much told her everything.
Q. JUROR: You started talking to her when? In '95 or '96?
A. The relationship, I told her in November of '96. After the election.
Q. JUROR: Okay. So from November '96 to December '97?
A. Pretty truthful.
Q. JUROR: And then after '97?
Q. PROSECUTOR: Are you not telling her things or are you saying things to her that are inaccurate?
A. Well, I don't remember the exact situations or the times that I didn't tell her something; if she had asked me about it I would have been inaccurate about what I said.
Q. So there's kind of a blending of those two concepts.
A. Correct.
Q. PROSECUTOR: And, again, to clarify, did you ever lie about your sexual relationship with the President?
A. No.
Q. JUROR: So after '97, then ...
A. After December '97, I don't even know how to how to put a percentage to that.
Q. JUROR: Any truth at all after '97?
A. Yes. There were some truths in December of '97. There certainly were some true statements, but there were a lot of untrue statements. Probably the untrue statements stick out in my mind more because they caused so much trouble.
Q. JUROR: Which ones stick out in your mind as having been untruthful?
A. Stuff about my mom. Just a lot of different things about my mom. That I had, that I told Mr. Jordan I wouldn't sign the affidavit until I got a job. That was definitely a lie.
Q. JUROR: Did you tell Linda Tripp at any time that you had heard or understood that people don't go to jail for perjury in a civil case?
A. Yes, I believe I think I said that.
B.
Q. JUROR: Did anyone other than your attorney ever suggest to you that perjury in a civil case would not be prosecuted?
A. No.
Q. PROSECUTOR: Did Mr. Jordan ever tell you that?
A. No.
Q. Did Mr. Carter ever tell you that?
A. No. You had asked me about the relationship and being untruthful and things like that. And I just, this is something that's sort of been on my mind since this whole thing started. I have never, I don't, I certainly believe I have ever told a lie to hurt anybody, that I sort of, some of the ways in which I grew up, it was, there were secrets, and inherent in a secret is a lie and so I just, you know, I just thought I'd tell you that.
Q. JUROR: Ms. Lewinsky I just remember you saying something with Linda Tripp, you know, what was not the truth, okay? And I just remembeed, was one of the things that you told her, that you gave your mother the blue dress, one of the untruths or was that true?
A. I don't know if I ever told Linda I gave my mom the blue dress. One of the things I did say was that I gave everything to my mom, so that probably included that and that was not true. I didn't give the evidence to my mom. My mom never hid the dress.
Q. JUROR: How much did your mom really know?
A. She knew, she knew that I was having a relationship with the president. She knew that, she knew that I was certainly emotional about it and that it made me miserable a lot and that sometimes I was elated and sometimes I was miserable, but I didn't you know, I, I might have said something to her like, "We fooled around," but she didn't know as much as I led Linda to believe she knew.
Q. JUROR: Did you ever tell Linda Tripp that you felt physically at risk?
A. I think so. I think her told her something about that, that I said something about Mary Jo what's-her-name.
JUROR: Kopechne.
A. Kopechne. And so, I really didn't feel threatened, but I was trying to use anything I could to try to convince her not to tell. So that I thought that if she thought I was threatened and that was part of the reason, then she would maybe do the same.
Q. JUROR: So you did not at any time feel that your personal security was at risk from the White House or anyone in the White House?
A. No. I think that maybe there, there, maybe once or twice it had crossed my mind in some bizarre way because everybody's heard about the different, you know, sure, there's the Marilyn Monroe theory. And so it, but it was not, it was not any factor of, that related to my actions.
Q. JUROR: So any discussion that you had about the whole topic with Linda Tripp would fall into what you were describing before as a little bit of fabrication?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. PROSECUTOR: If I could ask a follow-up on that, did your mother ever express any concerns about your safety?
A. I think she might have, but it was sort of the, I think it was more general. It might have been a more general sense.
Q. JUROR. At the top of page 7, where you say in your proffer that when Ms. Currie called later that afternoon she said ... that the president had told her Ms. L wanted her to hold on to something for her. Do you remember Betty Currie saying that the president had told her to call?
A. Right now, I don't. I don't remember, but when I wrote this, I was being truthful.
Q. JUROR: When did you first learn that Linda Tripp had been taping your phone conversations?
A. I believe that I didn't learn the extent to which she had taped my conversations until I read it in the press. I learned that day that she had worn a wire at the lunch and that there had been other people, I think, in the restaurant that had been listening in and so I knew she had, she had said that that, wheI was first apprehended, she was, she had said that they had done the same thing to her and she tried to hug me and she told me this was the best thing for me to do and -- oh.
Q. PROSECUTOR: Any other specific questions about that day? I just -- this was a long day. There were a lot of things that...
Q. JUROR: We want to know about that day.
A. Linda was supposed to go see this new attorney that she had claimed she had gotten and was going to try to sign an affidavit so she paged me in the morning. I called her back and she told me she wanted to meet me before she went to see the attorney. So we planned to meet at the Ritz Carlton in the food court at, I think it was quarter to one.
She was late. I saw her come down the escalator. And as I, as I walked toward her, she kind of motioned behind her and Agent (name redacted) and Agent (name redacted) presented themselves to me and flashed their badges at me. They told me that I was under some kind of investigation, something had to do with the Paula Jones case. They wanted to talk to me and give me a chance, I think, to cooperate, maybe.
I told them I wasn't speaking to them without my attorney.
They told me that that was fine but I should know I won't be given as much information and won't be able to help myself as much with my attorney there. So I agreed to go. I was so scared.
(The witness begins crying.)
Q. JUROR: So, Monica, did you go to a room with them at that time?
A. Yes.
PROSECUTOR: And what did you do then? Did you ever tell them that you wanted to call your mother?
A. I told them I wanted to talk to my attorney.
Q. Okay. So what happened?
A. And they told me ... Mike came out and introduced himself to me and told me that Janet Reno had sanctioned Ken Starr to investigate my actions in the Paula Jones case, that they knew that I had signed a false affidavit, they had me on tape saying I had committed perjur, that I could go to jail for 27 years, they were going to charge me with perjury and obstruction of justice and subornation of perjury and witness tampering and something else.
Q. And you're saying "they," at that point, who was talking to you about that stuff?
A. Mike Emmick and the two FBI guys. And I made Linda stay in the room. And I just -- I felt so bad.
Q. Now, when you say you felt bad, because you felt responsible somehow for pulling the president into something?
A. Yes.
Q. And is that something that still weighs heavily on you, that you feel responsible?
A. Yes.
A. And is it, do you feel responsible because you told Linda about your relationship?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there a time then that you just waited with the prosecutors until your mother came down?
A. No.
They told me they wanted me to cooperate. I asked them what cooperating meant and they told me that they had had me on tape saying things from the luncthat I had had with Linda at the Ritz Carlton the other day and that I'd have to agree to be debriefed and that I'd have to place calls or wear a wire to see
Betty and Mr. Jordan and possibly the president.
Q. And did you tell then you didn't want to do that?
A. Yes. I thought, well, what if, you know, what if I did that and I messed up, if I on purpose, you know, I envisioned myself in Mr. Jordan's office and sort of trying to motion to him that something had gone wrong. They said that they would be watching to see if it had been an intentional mistake.
Then I wanted to call my mom and they kept telling me that I couldn't tell anybody about this, they didn't want anyone to find out.
They told me that I could call this number and get another criminal attorney, but I didn't want that and I didn't trust them. Then I just cried for a long time.
Q. JUROR: All while you were crying, did they keep asking you questions? What were they doing?
A. No. they just sat there.
Q. JUROR: How many hours did this go on?
A. Maybe around two hours or so. They kept saying there was this time constraint. I had to make a decision.
And then Bruce Udolf came in at some point and then, then Jackie Bennett came in and there were a whole bunch of other people and the room was crowded and he was saying to me, you know, you have to make a decision. I had wanted to call my mom, they weren't going to let me call my attorney.
Then Jackie Bennett said, "You're 24, you're smart, you're old enough, you don't need to call your mommy."
And then I said, "Well, I'm letting you know that I'm leaning towards not cooperating." ...
And they had told me before that I could leave whenever I wanted, but thought if I left then that they were just going to arrest me. And so then they told me that I should know that they were planning to prosecute my mom for the things that I had said that she had done.
(The witness begins crying.)
(Witness excused. Witness recalled.)
A. Well, the first time when I asked, that I said I wasn't going to talk to them without my lawyer, they told me that if my lawyer was there, they wouldn't give me as much information and I couldn't help myself as much, so that ...
Q. JUROR: Did they ever tell you that you could not call Mr. Carter?
A. No. What they told me was that if I called Mr. Carter, I wouldn't necessarily still be offered an immunity agreement.
Q. JUROR: And did you feel threatened by that?
A. Yes.
Q. JUROR: And you said they offered you a chance to call another attorney?
A. Yes.
Q. JUROR: And did you take them up on that offer?
A. No.
Q. JUROR: Why not?
A. Because I didn't trust them.
Q. JUROR: I see. And at some point in this meeting, did you, you did obtain an attorney? Mr. Ginsberg?
A. Well, like at 11:00 that night.
Q. JUROR: So it waseven hours or eight hours or more later?
A. They, they finally let me call my mom, so I went to call my mom and then and I saw Linda again. She had been shopping or something like that. But I called my mom and then Mike had said that she could call him, so they called her or she called him or something like that and then they agreed to let her come down.
So she took the train and then and then he just sort of, I shut down and I kind of, you know, I thought maybe I should try and make these people like me, so I tried to be nice and I told jokes and I asked if we could walk around the mall because I couldn't sit in that room any more. And I just
PROSECUTOR: So did they let you do that?
A. Mm-hmm. So Mike and Agent (name redacted) took me and we walked around the mall and we ate dinner and then we went back to the room and I read Psalm 21 about a million times. And my mom's train had been, there were problems with her train and then finally she got there and they told me they were going to want to talk to my mom alone for a little bit, but I got to talk to her.
And I was, I didn't, I didn't want to cooperate. I mean, I didn't. I just kept thinking to myself, well, well, I'll just say I made it all up, I'll just, I'll just, I, I couldn't imagine, I couldn't imagine doing this to the president. And I felt so wrong and guilty for having told Linda and that she had done all this.
But, so then they took my mom into another room for a really long time and she had, then when she came back, they called my dad. And then we finally, and then I talked to my dad and then, then Ginsberg came on the scene.
PROSECUTOR: Although you were allowed to, the thing with Frank Carter was that they were afraid he would tell Vernon Jordan? Is that what they expressed to you?
A. Right.
Q. JUROR: Sounds as though they were actively discouraging you from talking to an attorney.
A. From Frank Carter, who was my only attorney at that point.
Q. JUROR: And this is the attorney who had helped you with the affidavit. When you called your mother, how much were you able to tell her over the phone? Very little or
A. I was hysterical. She didn't understand what I was saying, but I told her that, that the FBI had me and there was something with the Paula Jones case and Linda. I was screaming that, you know, "They want me to cooperate and I don't want to cooperate, don't make me cooperate, don't make we do this," and she, she said it was OK, don't worry, don't worry.
Continue To Part 3 of Monica Lewinsky's testimony.