Text Of Clinton Testimony (6)

This is part six of the uncorrected text of President Clinton's grand jury testimony:

OIC ATTORNEY: As I understand your testimony, Mr. President, touching somebody's breasts with the intent to arouse or gratify sexual desire in any person is covered, kissing the breast is covered, touching the genitalia is covered, correct?

MR. : In fairness, the witness said "directly" in each one of those cases.

OIC ATTORNEY: "Directly" -- is covered, correct?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: I believe it is, yes, sir.

OIC ATTORNEY: Oral sex in your view, is not covered, correct?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: If performed on the deponent.

OIC ATTORNEY: -- is not covered, correct?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: That's not in reading of this number one.

OIC ATTORNEY: And you're declining to answer the hypothetical about insertion of an object?

I need to inform you, Mr. President -- but we'll go on, at least for now -- but I need to inform you that the grand jury will consider your not answering the questions more directly in their determination of whether of not they're going to issue another subpoena.

Let me switch the topic and talk to you about John Podesta and some of the other aides you met with and spoke to after the story became public on January 21st 1998, the day of the Washington Post story.

Do you recall meeting with him around January 23rd, 1998, Friday, a.m., in your study, two days after the Washington Post story, and extremely explicitly telling him that you didn't have -- engage in any kind of sex in any way, shape or form with Monica Lewinsky, including oral sex?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: I meet with John Podesta almost every day. I meet with a number of people. The only thing I -- what happened in the couple of days after what you did was revealed, is a blizzard to me. The only thing I recall is that I met with certain people, and a few of them I said I didn't have sex with Monica Lewinsky or I didn't have an affair with her, or something like that. I had a very careful thing I said, and I tried not to say anything else. And I -- it might be that John Podesta was one of them. But I do not remember the specific meeting about which you ask or the specific comments to which you referred.

OIC ATTORNEY: You don't remember --

PRESIDENT CLINTON: And seven months ago -- I'd have no way to remember, no.

OIC ATTORNEY: You don't remember denying any kind of sex in any way shape or form with him, including oral sex; correct?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: I remember that I issued a number of denials to people that I thought needed to hear them, but tried to be careful and to be accurate in them. I do not remember what I said to John Podesta.

OIC ATTORNEY: Surely, if you told him that, that would be a falsehood; correct?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Oh, I didn't say that, sir. I didn't say that at all. That is not covered by the definition, and I did not address it in my statement.

OIC ATTORNEY: Well, let me ask yu then.

If you told him, perhaps he thought it was covered; I don't know. But if you told him, if you denied to him in any way, shape or form, kind of similar to what Mr. Bennett did at the deposition, including oral sex, wouldn't that have been a falsehood?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Now, Mr. Wisenberg, I told you in response to a grand jury's question, you asked me did I believe that oral sex performed on the person who was being deposed, was covered by that definition, and I said no. I don't believe it's covered by the definition. I said you were free to conclude that I did not do things that I believe were covered by the definition, and you have asked me a number of questions and I have acknowledged things that I believe are covered by the definition. Since that was not covered by the definition, I want fall back on my statement.

Look, I'm not trying to be evasive here, I'm trying to protect my privacy, my family's privacy, and I'm trying to stick to what the deposition was about. If the deposition wasn't about this, and didn't cover it, then I don't believe that I should be required to go beyond my statement.

OIC ATTORNEY: Mr. President, it's not our intent to embarrass you, but since we have to look, among other things, at obstruction of justice, questions of obstruction of justice and perjury, the answer for some of these delicate and unfortunate questions are absolutely required, and that is the purpose that we have to ask them for. I'm unaware of any --

PRESIDENT CLINTON: That's not -- Mr. Wisenberg, with respect, you don't need to know the answer for that if the answer -- no matter what the answer is, it wouldn't constitute perjury because it wasn't sexual relations as defined by the judge. The only reason you need to know that is for some other reason. It couldn't have anything to do with perjury.

OIC ATTORNEY: Mr. President, one of the -- one of the nice things about -- one of the normal things about an investigation and a grand jury investigation is that the grand jurors and the prosecutors get to ask the questions unless they're improper and unless there's a legal basis.

As I understand from your answers, there's no legal basis for which you decline to answer these questions. And I'll ask you again to answer the question. I'm unaware of any legal basis for you not to.

CLINTON COUNSEL: Well, if I could -- you could just restate the question, please?

OIC ATTORNEY: The question is if you told John Podesta, two days after the story broke, something to this effect: That you didn't have any kind of sex in any way, shape or form, including oral sex, with Ms. Lewinsky, were you telling him the truth?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: And let me say again, with respect, this is an indirect way to try to get me to testify to questions that have no bearing on whether I committed perjury. You apparently agree that it has no bearing on whether I committed perjury.

OIC ATTORNEY: No, I don't agree. Mr President, I'm sorry, with respect, I don't agree with that. I'm not going to argue with you about it. I just am going to ask you again, in fact, direct you to answer the question.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: I'm not going to answer that question because I believe it's a question about conduct that whatever the answer to it is would -- does not bear on the perjury, because oral sex performed on the deponent, under this definition, is not sexual relations, it is not covered by this definition.

CLINTON COUNSEL: The witness is not declining to tell you anything he said to John Podesta.

OIC ATTORNEY: The -- you denied -- the witness is not declining to tell me anything.

Did you deny oral sex in any way, shape or form to John Podesta?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: I told you, sir, before, and I will say again, in the aftermath of this story breaking, and what was told about it, the next two days, the next three days are just a blur to me. I don't remember to whom I talked, when I talked to them, or what I said.

OIC ATTORNEY: So you're not declining to answer, you just don't remember?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: I honestly don't remember, no. And I'm not saying that anybody who had a contrary memory is wrong. I do not remember.

OIC ATTORNEY: Do you recall denying any sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky to the following people: Harry Thomason, Erskine Bowles, Harold Ickes, Mr. Podesta, Mr. Blumenthal, Mr. Jordan, Ms. Betty Currie. Do you recall denying any sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky to those individuals?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: I recall telling a number of those people that I didn't have -- either I didn't have an affair with Monica Lewinsky or didn't have sex with her. And I believe, sir, that -- well, you'll have to ask them what they thought -- but I was using those terms in the normal way people use them. You'll have to ask them what they thought I was saying.

OIC ATTORNEY: If they testified that you denied sexual relations or a relationship with Monica Lewinsky, or if they've told us that you denied that, do you have any reason to doubt -- in the days after the story broke -- do you have any reason to doubt them?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, the -- let me say this: It's no secret to anybody that I hoped that this relationship would never become public. It's a matter of fact that it had been many, many months since there had been anything improper about it in terms of improper contact. I would --

OIC ATTORNEY: Did you deny it to them or not, Mr. President?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Let me finish. So what -- I did not want to mislead my friends, but I wanted to find language where I could say that. I also, frankly, did not want to turn any of them into witnesses because -- and sure enough, they all became witnesses. And so --

OIC ATTORNEY: Well you knew they might be witnesses, didn't you?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: And so I said to them things that were true about this relationship, that I use -- in the language I used; I said, "There's nothing going on between us." That was true. I said, "I have not had sex with her" -- as I define it. That was true.

And did I hope that I would never have to be here on this day giving this testimony? Of course. But I also didn't want to do anything to complicate this matter further. So I said things that were true. They may have been misleading, and if they were, I have to take responsibility for it, and I'm sorry.

OIC ATTORNEY: They may have been misleading, sir. And you knew, though, after January 21st, when the Post article broke and said that Judge Starr was looking into this, you knew that they might be witnesses, you knew that they might be called into a grand jury, didn't you?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: I think I was quite careful what I said after that. I may have said something to all these people to that effect, but I -- I also -- whenever anybody asked me any details, I said, "Look, I don't want you to be a witness or I turn you into a witness or give you information that could get you in trouble." I just wouldn't talk. And given the facts of their case, I can understand why they made that decision. But that is not how I prepared for it; that is not how I was thinking about it.

And I am not sure, Mr. Wisenberg, as I sit here today, that I sat there and followed all these interchanges between the lawyers. I am quite sure that I didn't follow all the interchanges between the lawyers all that carefully. And I don't really believe, therefore, that I can say Mr. Bennett's testimony or statement is testimony that's imputable to me. I don't know that I was even paying that much attention to it.

OIC ATTORNEY: You've told us you were very well prepared for the deposition.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, I said I was very well prepared to talk about Paula Jones and to talk about Kathleen Willey because she had made a related charge. She was the only person that I think I was asked about who had anything to do with anything that would remotely approximate sexual harassment. The rest of this looked to me like it was more a way to harass me.

OIC ATTORNEY: You're the president of the United States and your attorney tells the United States District Court judge that there is no sex of any kind, in any way, shape or form whatsoever, and you feel no obligation to do anything about that at that deposition, Mr. President?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: I have told you, Mr. Wisenberg -- I will tell you for a third time -- I am not even sure that when Mr. Bennett made that statement that I was concentrating on the exact words he used.

Now if someone had asked me on that day, "Are you having any kind of sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky?" -- that is, ask me a question in the present tense -- I would have said "no," and it would have been completely true.

OIC ATTORNEY: Was Mr. Bennett aware of this -- this tense-based distinction you made?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't --
MR. : I'm going to object to any questions about communications with private counsel.

OIC ATTORNEY: Well -- well, the witness has already testified, I think, that Mr. -- Mr. Bennett didn't know about the inappropriate relationship with Ms. Lewinsky, and I guess --

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, you'll have to ask him that. You know, he was not a sworn witness and I was not paying that close attention to what he was saying. I -- I've told you that repeatedly. I was -- I don't -- I never even focused on that until I read it in this transcript in preparation for this testimony. When I was in there, I didn't think about my lawyers; I was, frankly, thinking about myself and my testimony and trying to answer the questions.

OIC ATTORNEY: I just want to make sure I understand, Mr. President. Do you mean today that because you were not engaging in sexual activity with Ms. Lewinsky during the deposition that the statement of Mr. Bennett might be literally true?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, sir. I mean that at the time of the deposition, it had been -- that was well beyond any point of improper contact between me and Miss Lewinsky, so that anyone generally speaking in the present tense, saying there is not an improper relationship would be telling the truth if that person said there was not -- in the present tense, the present tense encompassing many months. That's what I meant by that, not that I was -- I wasn't trying to give you a cute answer, that I was obviously not involved in anything improper during the deposition. I was trying to tell you that generally speaking, in the present tense, if someone said that that would be true. But I don't know what Mr. Bennett had in his mind; I don't know -- I didn't pay any attention to this colloquy that went on. I was waiting for my instructions as a witness to go forward. I was worried about my own testimony.

OIC ATTORNEY: I want to go back to some questions about Mr. Jordan. We're going to touch a little bit on the December 19th meeting and some others. Mr. Jordan is a long-time friend of yours, is that correct, Mr. President?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes, sir. We've been friends probably 20 years, maybe more.

OIC ATTORNEY: And you said you consider him to be a truthful person, correct?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: I do.

OIC ATTORNEY: Mr. Jordan has told us that he visited you in the residence on the night of the 19th after a White House holiday dinner to discuss Monica Lewinsky and her subpoena. Would you have any reason to doubt him?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: No. I've never known him to say anything that wasn't true, and his memory of these events, I think, would be better than mine because I had a lot of other things going on.

OIC ATTORNEY: We have WAVES records that will show that, but in the interest of time, I'm not going to -- since you don't dispute that, I'm not going to show them right now. And in fact that was the very day Monica Lewinsky was subpoenaed, wsn't it? The night that he came to see you.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't have independent -- any memory of that, but you would probably know that. I mean, I'm sure there's a record of when she got her subpoena.

OIC ATTORNEY: Mr. Jordan has told us that he spoke with you over the phone within about an hour of Monica receiving her subpoena and later visited you that very day -- night at the White House to discuss it. Again, you'd have no reason to doubt him, is that correct?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: I've already -- I believe I've already testified about that here today, that I had lots of conversations with Vernon. I'm sure that I had lots of conversations with him that included comments about this. And if he has a specific memory of when I had some conversation on a certain day, I would be inclined to trust his memory over mine because under the present circumstances, my head's probably more cluttered than his and my schedule's probably busier, and he's probably got better records.

OIC ATTORNEY: And when Mr. Jordan met with you at the residence that night, sir, he asked you if you had been involved in a sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky, didn't he?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: I do not remember exactly what the nature of the conversation was. I do remember -- (coughs) -- that I told him -- (coughs) -- excuse me -- that I told him that there was no sexual relationship between me and Monica Lewinsky, which was true. And that we -- then we -- and then all I remember for the rest is that he said he had referred her to a lawyer, and I believe it was a Mr. Carter, and I don't believe I've ever met Mr. Carter. I don't think I know him.

OIC ATTORNEY: Mr. President, Mr. Jordan has told us that he had a very disturbing conversation with Ms. Lewinsky that day, then went over to visit you at the White House and that before he asked you the question about sexual relationship, related that disturbing conversation to you, the conversation being that Ms. Lewinsky had a fixation on you and thought that perhaps the first lady would leave you at the end of the -- that you would leave the first lady at the end of your term and come be with Ms. Lewinsky. Do you have any reason to doubt that it was on that night that that conversation happened?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: I -- all I can tell you, sir, is I -- I certainly don't remember him saying that. Now, he could have said that, because, as you know, a great many things happened in the ensuing two or three days, and I could have just forgotten it. But I don't remember him ever saying that.

OIC ATTORNEY: At any time?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, I don't remember his saying that. What I remember was that he said that Monica came to see him, that she was upset that she was going to have to testify, that he had referred her to a lawyer.

OIC ATTORNEY: In fact, she was very distraught about the subpoena, according to Mr. Jordan, wasn't she?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, he said she waupset about it. I don't remember the -- I don't remember any -- at any time when he said this, this other thing you just quoted me; I'm sorry, I just don't remember that.

OIC ATTORNEY: That is something that one would be likely to remember, don't you think, Mr. President?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: I think I would, and I'd be happy to share it with you if I did. I only had one encounter with Miss Lewinsky, I seem to remember, which was somewhat -- maybe reminiscent of that, but not that -- I hate to be real obsessive, if that's the way you want to use that word.

OIC ATTORNEY: Do you recall him at all telling you that he was concerned about her fascination with you, even if you don't remember the specific conversation about you leaving the first lady?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: I recall him saying he thought that she was upset with -- somewhat fixated on me, that she acknowledged that she was not having a sexual relationship with me, and that she did not want to be drug into the Jones lawsuit. That's what I recall. And I recall his getting -- saying that he had recommended a lawyer to her and she had gone to see the lawyer. That's what I recall. I don't remember the other thing you mentioned. I just -- I might well remember it if he had said it; maybe he said it and I've forgotten it, but I don't -- I can't tell you that I remember that.

OIC ATTORNEY: Mr. President, you swore under oath in the Jones case that you didn't think anyone other than your lawyers had ever told you that Monica Lewinsky had been subpoenaed. Page 68, line 22 through page 69, line three. Here's the testimony, sir:

"Question:" -- we've gone over it a little bit before -- "did anyone other than your attorneys ever tell you that Monica Lewinsky had been served with a subpoena in the case?"

"Answer: I don't think so."

Now, this deposition was taken just three and a half weeks after, by your own testimony, Vernon Jordan made a trip at night to the White House to tell you, among other things, that Monica Lewinsky had been subpoenaed and was upset about it. Why did you give that testimony under oath in the Jones case, sir?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, Mr. Wisenberg, I think you have to -- again, you have to put this in the context of the flow of questions. And I have already testified to this once today; I will testify to it again.

My answer to the next question, I think, is a way of finishing my answer to the question and the answer you have said there. I was trying to remember who the first person other than Mr. Bennett -- I don't think Mr. Bennett -- who the first person who told me -- who told me -- Monica Lewinsky had a subpoena. And I thought that Bruce Lindsey was the first person, and that's how I was trying to remember that.

Keep in mind, sort of like today, these questions are being kind of put at me rapid fire, but unlike today I hadn't had the opportunity to prepare at this level of detail. I was trying to keep a lot of thins in my head that I had remembered with regard to the Paula Jones case and the Kathleen Willey matter, because I knew I would be asked about them. And I gave the best answers I could. Several of my answers are somewhat jumbled.

But this is an honest attempt here -- if you read both these answers, it's obvious they were both answers to that question you quoted, to remember the first person who was not Mr. Bennett, who told me. And I don't believe Vernon was the first person who told me. I believe Bruce Lindsey was.

OIC ATTORNEY: Let me read the question because I want to talk about the first-person issue. The question on line 25 of page 68 is: "Did anyone other than your attorneys ever tell you that Monica Lewinsky had been served with a subpoena in this case?" Answer: "I don't think so."

Do you agree with me, sir, that the question doesn't say anything about who was the first person; it just says, "Did anyone tell you?" Isn't that correct?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: That's right. And I said Bruce Lindsey because I was trying to struggle with where I'd heard this. And they were free to ask a follow-up question and they didn't.

OIC ATTORNEY: Mr. President, three and a half weeks before, Mr. Jordan had made a special trip to the White House to tell you Ms. Lewinsky had been subpoenaed, she was distraught, she had a fixation over you. And you couldn't remember that three and a half weeks later?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Mr. Wisenberg, if they had access to all this information from their conversations with Linda Tripp, if that was the basis of it, they were free to ask me more questions. They may have been trying to trick me. Now, they knew more about the details of my relationship with Monica Lewinsky -- I'm not sure everything they knew was true, because I don't know, I've not heard these tapes or anything, but they knew a lot more than I did. And instead of trying to trick me, what they should have done is to ask me specific questions, and I invited them, on more than one occasion, to ask follow-up questions.

This is the third or fourth time that you see to be complaining that I did not do all their work for them; that just sitting here answering these questions to the best of my memory, with limited preparation was not enough, that I should have actually been doing all their work for them.

Now, they'd been up all night with Linda Tripp, who had betrayed her friend, Monica Lewinsky, stabbed her in the back and given them all this information. They could have helped more; if they wanted to ask me follow-up questions, they could. They didn't. I'm sorry, I did the best I could.

OIC ATTORNEY: Can you tell the grand jury what is "tricky" about the question: "Did anyone other than your attorneys ever tell you" --

PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, there's nothing -- I'm just telling -- I have explained -- I will now explain for the third time, sir. I was being asked a number of questions here. I was strugglin to remember them. There were lots of things that had gone on during this time period that had nothing to do with Monica Lewinsky. You know, I believed then, I believe now that Monica Lewinsky could have sworn-out an honest affidavit, that under reasonable circumstances and without the benefit of what Linda Tripp did to her, would have given her a chance not to be a witness in this case.

So I didn't have a perfect memory of all these events that have now, in the last seven months, since Ms. Lewinsky was kept for several hours by four or five of your lawyers and four or five FBI agents, as if she were a serious felon, these things have become the most important matters in the world. At the moment they were occurring, many other things were going on.

I honestly tried to remember -- you know, if somebody asked you, "Has anybody ever talked to you about this?" you normally think, "Well, where was the first time I heard that?" That's all I was trying to do here. I was not trying to say not Vernon Jordan, but Bruce Lindsey. Everybody knows Vernon Jordan is a friend of mine. I probably would have talked to Vernon Jordan about the Monica Lewinsky problem if he had never been involved in it. So I was not trying to mislead them, I was trying to answer this question with the first person who told me that. Now, I realize that wasn't the specific question. They were free to ask follow-ups, just like you're asking follow-ups today. And I can't explain why I didn't answer every question in the way you seem to think I should have, and I certainly can't explain why they didn't ask what seemed to me to be logical follow-ups, especially since they spent all that time with Linda Tripp the night before.

OIC ATTORNEY: You told us that you understand your obligation then, as it is now, is to tell the whole truth, sir; you recall that?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: I took the oath here.

OIC ATTORNEY: If Vernon Jordan --

PRESIDENT CLINTON: You even read me a definition of the oath.

OIC ATTORNEY: If Vernon Jordan has told us that you have an extraordinary memory, one of the greatest memories he's ever seen in a politician, would that be something you would care to dispute?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, I do have a good memory, at least I have had a good memory in my life.

OIC ATTORNEY: Do you understand that if you answer "I don't think so" to the question "Has anyone other than your attorneys told you that Monica Lewinsky has been served with a subpoena in this case," that if you answered "I don't think so," but you really knew Vernon Jordan had been telling you all about it, you understand that that would be a false statement, presumably perjurious?

PRESIDENT CLINTON: Mr. Wisenberg, I have testified about this three times. Now, I will do it the fourth time. I am not going to answer your trick questions. I -- people don't always hear the same questions in the same way; they don't always answer them in the same way. I wa so concerned about the question they asked me that the next question I was asked, I went back to the -- the previous question, trying to give an honest answer about the first time I heard about the Lewinsky subpoena. I -- look, I could have had no reasonable expectation that anyone would ever know that -- or not -- excuse me -- not know if this thing that -- I would talk to Vernon Jordan about nearly everything.

I was not interested in -- if the implication of your question is that somehow I didn't want anybody to know I'd ever talked to Vernon Jordan about this, that's just not so. It's also -- if I could say one thing about my memory -- I have been blessed and advantaged in my life with a good memory. I have been shocked and so have members of my family and friends of mine at how many things that I have forgotten in the last six years -- I think because of the pressure and the pace and the volume of events in a president's life, compounded by the pressure of your four-year inquiry, and all the other things that have happened, I'm amazed -- there are lots of times when I literally can't remember last week.

If you ask me, "Did you talk to Vernon" -- "When's the last time you talked to Vernon Jordan? What time of day was it? When did you see him? What did you say?" my answer was, "The last" -- you know, if you answered me, "When was the last time you saw a friend of yours in California?"; if you asked me a lot of questions like that, my memory is not what it was when I came here because my life is so crowded.

And now that, as I said, you have made this the most important issue in America -- I mean, you have made it the most important issue in America, from your point of view. At the time this was occurring, even though I was concerned about it and I hoped she didn't have to testify, and I hoped this wouldn't come out, I felt -- I will say again -- that she could honestly fill out an affidavit that under reasonable circumstances, would relieve her of the burden of testifying.

And I am not trying to exclude the fact that I talked to Vernon here. I just -- all I can tell you is I believe this answer reflects I was trying to remember the first person who told me who was not Mr. Bennett, and I believe it was Bruce Lindsey.

Continue To Part 7 of the president's testimony.