Text Of Clinton Testimony (3)
This is part three of the uncorrected text of President Clinton's testimony to the Ken Starr grand jury:
PRESIDENT CLINTON (Con't.) And I told Ms. Lewinsky that just -- (inaudible word). I said, you know, if they ask you for this, you'll have to give them whatever you have. And I think, Mr. Bittman, it must have happened before then because -- either that, or Ms. Lewinsky didn't want to tell me that she had the subpoena, because that was the language I remember her using.
OIC ATTORNEY: Well, did she tell you, Mr. President, that the subpoena specifically called for a hatpin that you had produced -- pardon me, that you had given her?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't remember that. I remember, sir -- I told you what I remember. That doesn't mean that my memory is accurate. A lot of things have happened in the last several months. A lot of things were happening then. But my memory is she asked me a general question about gifts, and my memory is she asked me in the hypothetical. So it's possible that I had a conversation with her before she got a subpoena, or it's possible she didn't want to tell me that was part of the subpoena. I don't know.
But she may have been worried about this gift business, but it didn't bother me. My experience was totally different. I told her -- I said, "Look, the way these things work is, when a person gets a subpoena, you have to give them whatever you have. That's what the rule -- that's what the law is." And I -- when I was asked about this in my deposition, even though I was not trying to be helpful to -- particularly, to these people that I thought were not well-motivated or being honest or even lawful in their conduct vis-a-vis me -- that is, the Jones legal team -- I did ask them specifically to enumerate the gifts; I asked them to help me because I couldn't remember the specifics.
So all I'm saying is it didn't -- I wasn't troubled by this gift issue.
OIC ATTORNEY: And your testimony is that Ms. Lewinsky was concerned about her turning over any gifts that you had given her, and that your recommendation to her was: Absolutely, Monica, you have to produce everything that I have given you.
Is that your testimony?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: My testimony is what I have said, and let me reiterate it. I don't want to agree to a characterization of it, I want to just say what it was. My testimony is that my memory is that on some date in December -- and I'm sorry I don't remember when it was -- she said, "Well, what if they ask me about the gifts you have given me?" And I said, "Well, if you get a request to produce those, you have to give them whatever you have."
And it just -- it -- to me, it -- I don't -- I didn't then, I don't now see this as a problem. And if she thought it was a problem, I think it must have been from a -- really a misapprehension of the circumstances. I certainly never encouraged her not to comply lawfully with the subpoena.
OIC ATTORNEY: Mr. Presidet, if your intent was, as you have earlier testified, you didn't want anyone to know about this relationship you had with Ms. Lewinsky, why would you feel comfortable giving her gifts in the middle of discovery in the Paula Jones case?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, sir, for one thing, there was no existing improper relationship at that time. I had, for nearly a year, done my best to be a friend to Ms. Lewinsky, to be a counselor to her, to give her good advice, and to help her.
She had, for her part, most of the time, accepted the changed circumstances. She talked to me a lot about her life, her job ambitions, and she continued to give me gifts. And I felt that it was the right thing to do to give her gifts back. I have always given a lot of people gifts; I have always been given gifts. I do not think there is anything improper about a man giving a woman a gift, or a woman giving a man a gift that necessarily connotes an improper relationship. So it didn't bother me. I wasn't -- you know, this was December 28th. I was -- I gave her some gifts. I -- I wasn't worried about it; I thought it was an all right thing to do.
OIC ATTORNEY: What about notes and letters? Cards, letters and notes from Miss Lewinsky? After this relationship, this intimate, inappropriate, intimate relationship between you and Miss Lewinsky ended, she continued to send you numerous intimate notes and cards, is that right?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, they were -- some of them were somewhat intimate. I'd say most of them -- most of the notes and cards were affectionate, all right, but she had clearly accepted the fact that there could be no contact between us that was in anyway inappropriate. Now, she -- she sent cards sometimes that were just funny, even a little bit off color, but they were funny. She liked to send me cards, and I got a lot of those cards. I -- several, anyway; I don't know "a lot." I got a few.
OIC ATTORNEY: She professed her love to you in these cards, after the end of the relationship, didn't she?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well --
OIC ATTORNEY: She said she loved you.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Sir, the truth is that most of the time, even when she was expressing her feelings for me in affectionate terms, I believe that she had accepted, understood, my decision to stop this inappropriate contact. She knew from the very beginning of our relationship that I was apprehensive about it. And I think that in a way she felt a little freer to be affectionate because she knew that nothing else was going to happen. I can't explain entirely what was in her mind.
But most of these messages were not what you'd call over the top. They weren't things that if you read them, you would say, "Oh, my goodness, these people are having some sort of sexual affair."
(Cross talk.)
OIC ATTORNEY: (Mr. President, my question) --
PRESIDENT CLINTON: But some of them were quite affectionate.
OIC ATTORNEY: My question was: Did she, odid she not, profess her love to you in these cards and letters that she sent to you after the relationship ended?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Most of them were signed, "Love" -- you know, "Love, Monica." I don't know that I would -- I don't believe that in most of these cards and letters, she professed her love, but she might well have.
But you know, love can mean different things too, Mr. Bittman. There are a lot of women with whom I have never had any inappropriate conduct, who are friends of mine, who will say from time to time, "I love you." And I know that they don't mean anything wrong by that.
OIC ATTORNEY: Specifically, Mr. President, do you remember the card she sent you after she saw the movie "Titanic," in which she said that she reminisced or dreamed about -- had the romantic feelings that occurred in the movie and how that reminded her of you two? Do you remember that?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, sir. But she could have said it. Just because I don't remember it doesn't mean it wasn't there.
OIC ATTORNEY: So you're not denying that, that --
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Oh, no, I wouldn't deny that, I just don't remember it. You asked me if I remember it; I don't. She might have done it.
OIC ATTORNEY: Do you ever remember telling her, Mr. President, that she should not write some of the things that she does in these cards and letters that she sends to you because it reveals -- it disclosed this relationship that you had and that she shouldn't do it?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I remember telling her she should be careful what she wrote because a lot of it was clearly inappropriate and would be embarrassing if somebody else read it. I don't remember when I said that, I don't remember whether it was in '96 or when it was. I don't remember.
OIC ATTORNEY: Embarrassing in that it was revealing of the intimate relationship that you and she had; is that right?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I do not know when I said this, so I don't know whether we did have any sort of inappropriate relationship at the time I said that to her. I don't remember. But it's obvious that if she wrote things that she should not have written down and someone else read it, that it would be embarrassing.
OIC ATTORNEY: She certainly sent you something like that after the relationship began, didn't she? And so, therefore, there was, at the time she sent it, something inappropriate going on?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, my recollection is that she -- that maybe because of changed circumstances in her own life, in 1997, after there was no more inappropriate contact, that she sent me more things in the mail, and that there was sort of a disconnect sometimes between what she was saying and the plain facts of our relationship. And I don't know what caused that, but it may have been dissatisfaction with the rest of her life; I don't know.
You know, it -- she had, from the time I first met her, talked to me about the rest of her personal life, an it may be that there was some reason.
You know, she had from the time I first met her talked to me about the rest of her personal life, and it may be that there was some reason for that. It may be that when I did the right thing and made it stick, that in a way she felt a need to cling more closely or try to get closer to me even though she knew nothing improper was happening or was going to happen. I don't know the answer to that.
OIC ATTORNEY: After you gave her the gifts on December 28, did you speak with your secretary, Ms. Currie, and ask her to pick up the box of gifts that -- or some compilation of gifts that Ms. Lewinsky would have --
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, sir, I didn't do that. I did not do that.
OIC ATTORNEY: When you testified in the Paula Jones case -- this was only two and a half weeks after you had given her these six gifts -- you were asked, at page 75 of the deposition, lines two through five, "Well, have you ever given any gifts to Monica Lewinsky?" And you answer, "I don't recall." In your (track ?), you point out that you actually ask them to -- (inaudible) -- "Do you know what they were?"
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I think what I meant there was I don't recall what they were, not that I don't recall whether I had given them. And then if you see, they did give me these specifics, and I gave them quite a good explanation here. I remembered very clearly what the facts were about the Black Dog. And I said that I could have given her a hatpin and a Walt Whitman book, that I did not remember giving her a gold brooch, which was true; I didn't remember it. I may have given it to her, but I didn't remember giving her one. They didn't ask me about the Christmas gifts, and I don't know why I didn't think to say anything about them.
But I have to tell you again, I even invited them to have a list. It was obvious to me by this point in the -- in this deposition that they had -- these people had access to a lot of information from somewhere, and I presume it came from Linda Tripp, and I had no interest in not answering their questions about these gifts. I do not believe that gifts are incriminating, nor do I think they are wrong. I think it was a good thing to do. I'm not -- I'm still not sorry I gave Monica Lewinsky gifts.
OIC ATTORNEY: Why did you assume that that information came from Linda Tripp?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I didn't, then.
OIC ATTORNEY: You mean -- I thought you just said somebody -- (inaudible) --
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, I said I now assume --
OIC ATTORNEY: You now assume.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: -- after the trials of all the subsequent events. I didn't know -- I just knew that --
OIC ATTORNEY: Let me ask you about --
PRESIDENT CLINTON: -- that somebody had access to some information and they may have known more about this than I did.
OIC ATTORNEY: Let me ask you about the meeting you had with Betty Currie at the White House on Sunday, January 1, this year; the day after your deposition. First of all, you didn't -- Mrs. Currie, your secretary of six-some years -- you never allowed her, did you, to watch what ever -- whatever intimate activity you did with Miss Lewinksy, did you?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, sir, not to my knowledge.
OIC ATTORNEY: And as far as you know, she couldn't hear anything, either, is that right?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: In -- there were a couple of times when Monica was there when I asked Betty to be places where she could hear because Monica was upset and I -- this was after there was -- all the inappropriate contact had been terminated, but --
OIC ATTORNEY: I'm talking about the times when you actually had the intimate contact.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: She was -- I believe that -- well first of all, on that one occasion in 1997, I do not know whether Betty was in the White House after the radio address in the Oval Office complex.
I believe she probably was, but I am not sure. But I am certain that someone was there. Always someone was there.
In 1996, I think most of the times that Ms. Lewinsky was there, there may not have been anybody around except maybe coming in and out, but not permanently. So I -- that's correct -- I never -- I didn't try to involve Betty in that in any way.
OIC ATTORNEY: Well, not only did you not try to involve her, you specifically tried to exclude her and everyone else, isn't that right?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, yes, I've never -- I think it's almost humorous, sir; I'd have to be an exhibitionist not to have tried to exclude everyone else.
OIC ATTORNEY: So if Ms. Currie testified that you approached her on the 18th, where you spoke with her and you said you were always there when she was there, she wasn't, was she; that is, Mrs. Currie?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: She was always there in the White House, and I was concerned -- let me back for a second.
OIC ATTORNEY: What about the radio address, Mr. President?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Let me back up a second, Mr. Bittman.
I knew about the radio address. I was sick after it was over.
And I was pleased at that time it had been nearly a year since any inappropriate contact had occurred with Ms. Lewinsky. I promised myself it wasn't going to happen again. The facts are complicated about what did happen and how it happened, but, nonetheless, I am responsible for it. On that night, she didn't.
I was more concerned about the times after that when Ms. Lewinsky was upset, and I wanted to establish at least that I had not -- because these questions were -- some of them were off the wall; some of them were way out of line, I thought.
And what I wanted to establish was that Betty was there at all other times in the complex, and I wanted to know what Betty's memory was about what she heard, what she could hear. And what I did not know was -- I did not know that, and I was trying to figure out, and I was trying to figure out in a hurry becausI knew something was up after that --
OIC ATTORNEY: So you wanted to check her memory for what she remembered --
PRESIDENT CLINTON: That's correct.
OIC ATTORNEY: -- and that is whether she remembered nothing, or whether she remembered an inappropriate, intimate relationship?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Oh, no, no, no, no. No, I didn't ask her about it in that way. I asked her about what the -- what I was trying to determine was whether my recollection was right that she was always in the office complex when Monica was there, and whether she thought she could hear any conversations we had or did she hear any. And then I asked her specifically about a couple of times when -- once when I asked her to remain in the dining room -- Betty -- while I met with Monica in my study; and once when I took Monica into the small office Nancy Hernreich occupies right next to Betty's and talked to her there for a few minutes. That's my recollection of that.
I was trying to -- I knew, Mr. Bittman, to a reasonable certainty, that I was going to be asked more questions about this. I didn't really expect you to be in the Jones case at the time. I thought what would happen is that it would break in the press, and I was trying to get the facts down; I was trying to understand what the facts were.
OIC ATTORNEY: Ms. Currie testified that these were not really questions to her, that they were more like statements. Is that not true?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, I can't testify as to what her perception was. I can tell you this: I was trying to get information in a hurry. I was downloading what I remembered.
Continue To Part 4 of the president's testimony.