<i>FTN</I> Transcript - May 28

Bob Schieffer, CBS
News Chief Washington Correspondent: Today on Face The Nation: Whatever happened to the Gore campaign? And President Clinton`s new troubles; is he really likely to lose his license to practice law?

It was just last fall, as the leaves began to turn, that Vice President Gore knew his campaign was in trouble. He shook up the staff, moved his headquarters from Washington to Nashville, adopted a more casual look and somehow it all worked. He crushed Bill Bradley in the primaries. But suddenly it`s a different story. As George Bush is risen in the polls, nothing seems to be working for the vice president. What does he need to do?

We`ll hear from one-time Bradley supporter, Senator Paul Wellstone, from centrist Democrat John Breaux, Massachusetts Democrat John Kerry - often mentioned as a possible Gore running mate, and pollster John Zogby, who has the latest numbers on the race.

Then we`ll shift to the other White House news of the week. Will the president be disbarred because of his testimony in the Paula Jones case? We`ll hear from former White House counsel Jack Quinn and Asa Hutchinson, one-time impeachment prosecutor.

Gloria Borger will be here, and I`ll have a final word on Memorial Day. But first, the troubles of Al Gore on Face The Nation.

Well, a happy Memorial Day weekend to all of you on this rainy Memorial Day in much of the country. Joining us from Fort Myers, Florida, Senator John Breaux; with us from Minneapolis, Minnesota, Senator Paul Wellstone; from Syracuse, New York, pollster John Zogby; and here in the studio, Senator John Kerry. Welcome to all of you.

Mr. Zogby, the first question goes to you. There just seems to be something gone wrong with the Gore campaign. All of a sudden he`s behind in the polls with George Bush. Nothing seems to be working. Where this is race right now?

John Zogby, pollster: Well, right now it is awfully early, Bob, but Gore`s down by six points, and Bush`s lead is growing over the last couple of polls.

It`s awfully early. Gore still has some decided advantages. He is a vice president during a period of peace and prosperity. But there are three or four groups that he should be leading among that he is not leading among and that Bush is actually even building quite a sizable lead among.

Schieffer: Let me put a graphic up here to just kind of illustrate where this all is. This is your poll, it shows that George Bush now has about a six-point lead over Al Gore. But even more important this early in the campaign, let`s look at some of those groups.

Right here independents, Bush has the edge, with women Bush has the edge, and with working women, he has an even larger edge. Now why is that?

Zogby: Those are three traditional Democratic groups. Clinton won both of those and won them handsomely over the last couple of elections. But basically I think what Bush hs been able to do is combine affability, which translates into a kind of a positive character image, in contrast to Al Gore, who`s projected kind of a negative image, a win-at-all-cost image. And at the same time, Bush has been able then to use his affability and steal some of the core Gore constituencies with issues like education and Social Security, being proactive on some of those issues and taking fairly popular stances on them.

Schieffer: Well, let`s talk to some of these Democrats who have a keen interest in all of this. Gloria?

Gloria Borger, U.S. News & World Report: Senator Kerry, what about this win-at-all-cost image that you just heard John Zogby talk about? Is that a problem for Al Gore?

Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.): No. I think what`s happened a little bit is that in the post-primary lull, the vice president perhaps hasn`t used the time in the same way as George Bush has, and perhaps not even quite as effectively.

But I think you have to remember what John Zogby just said which everybody who observes this remembers. It is so early. Jimmy Carter was ahead of Ronald Reagan and he lost. Bill Clinton was running third and he won. You go back historically and Michael Dukakis was running way ahead. He lost. I mean, it is amazingly early.

Secondly, I think that the vice president, frankly, needs to be putting out a little bit more of his message, about the things that he is focused on, because frankly, the differences between George Bush and the vice president on those things is enormous. On Social Security, where George Bush is unwilling to even guarantee that you won`t raise the retirement age; Al Gore will not raise the retirement age.

George Bush has a $2 trillion tax cut. He has a $1 trillion cost in the transition of the Social Security plan. No one has explained where that can come from. Al Gore has a fiscally responsible, sensible approach.

And I think, as Americans begin to see the reality of the programs that are being proposed, and most importantly, the accomplishments - what has been achieved since the Deficit Reduction Act of 1993, you are really going to see this thing begin to separate differently.

Schieffer: Well, let me go to Paul Wellstone because he was a strong backer of Bill Bradley during the primaries. Has the vice president done anything to bring the Bradley folks on board, Senator Wellstone?

Sen. Paul Wellstone (D-Minn.): There`s been some discussion, but I think the vice president needs to do more. I think the campaign needs to be more inclusive. It`s early, and I believe the vice president can win this race. But I`ll tell you, just listening to others, a couple of things.

First of all, I think people can`t just know that you want to win. It`s not winning for the sake of winning. They want to know why you want to win. I think the vice president needs to call on people in the country to be their own bst selves. I think he needs to inspire people. I think he needs to talk about his vision for the country. He can lay out some very concrete goals. For example, that every child by kindergarten comes to school ready to learn. People are ready for something like that.

Second of all, I think you`ve got to have some populism. I mean, people have to know you`re on their side. And George Bush has given the vice president a lot of room here. I mean, the vice president should be out there on good jobs and good wages, on health care, on kids, on education, on Medicare for all, on Social Security. He can win on those kitchen table issues and living room issues because those are the issues that the vast majority of people care about.

And then finally, people got to like you. The vice president needs to lay out who he is. He needs to be authentic. And he can win this race.

Schieffer: Let me ask you something you said in the beginning. You said there has been some contact with the Bradley folks. Has in fact Al Gore talked to Bill Bradley about this, as far as you know?

Wellstone: I think they`re starting to talk to each other. Remember, Bill has 500 delegates and he continues to get, like, 20 to 25 percent of the vote in some of these states.

I think it is very important that the vice president - it is in his self-interest, the vice president`s self-interest to be inclusive, have the base of the party behind him. Bill could be a tremendous asset. But again, people don`t just want denunciation. They want annunciation. They want to know what you`re for. That`s extremely important.

Borger: Senator Breaux, isn`t this about policy though, and the fact that George W. Bush is co-opting an awful lot of the Democratic issues that people like you want to talk about? You`re in the centrist group in the Democratic Party.

Sen. John Breaux (D-La.): Well, Gloria, I think there has been a fundamental change in the make-up of the electorate in this country. We have Democrats, we have Republicans, but now we also have a growing number of people who consider themselves independent voters; about 38 percent fall into that category. And they want the next president to not be perceived as defending the status quo. They don`t want him to be too partisan. They don`t want him to be perceived as pandering to special interests. And I think that whoever can capture the independents will be the next president of the United States.

Borger: Is that what you`re saying Gore is now being perceived as, pandering to special interests, too partisan, attacking Bush too much?

Breaux: No, I`m not saying that at all. I`m just saying that group of independent voters, that`s what they want in a president.

And the make-up of the population is different. This election is about - it`s the new economy, stupid. We`re talking about new wired workers. We have as many of those as w have manufacturing workers now. They`re basically centrists. They`re demanding accountability from government. They want a smaller, more efficient, more effective government. And whoever can capture those independents, I think, will be the next president.

Schieffer: Is the vice president being too negative, Senator Kerry?

Kerry: No, but I think thee does need to spend more time focused - I mean, all he has done is focus on differences in substance. But what I think he needs to do is spend more time doing what I saw him do so effectively when he was in Iowa, when he was in New Hampshire.

I mean there`s a reason - remember that only last year you all were saying the same things about him versus Bradley. And he came in and campaigned with enormous skill and capacity. He turned that around. And I think he has to get back into more of that kind of energy, where he`s out there doing the town meetings, meeting with people. But it is so early.

But in the end, when he does that, he is going to connect with people the way he connected in New Hampshire, the way he connected in Iowa. And, look, no one`s ever won the nomination by winning every single primary the way the vice president is. I think, as you see him go forward now, you`re going to see someone who will engage on education, where there is a marked difference.

Look at Texas and education. George Bush is coming to this race with as bad a record on the environment, on children`s health, and frankly, most of the things in education where he claims his greatest expertise were put into place before he became governor. So I think you`re going to see, you know, a very significant effort to remind people why George Bush`s father was not reelected president of the United States. The reason is the deficit, the economy and Al Gore has been a key part of turning that around.

Schieffer: Let me ask Senator Wellstone and Senator Breaux this question. What part should President Clinton play in this? Apparently he is not very happy about the way the campaign is being run here. Should he have a big role, Senator Wellstone?

Wellstone: Well, I think President Clinton can play a very positive role and should be out there for sure. But, I don`t think in politics it transfers that much from one person to another. I think the vice president needs to do this on his own.

And I want to go back to a comment John Zogby made, and I`ll be very brief. And I think, thank God, there is still some mystery to politics. There is an intangible, and it`s the chemistry between the candidate and the people.

People got to believe in you. They`ve got to think you`re authentic. They have to like you. They have to believe that you`re on their side, you will be a good president for the country.

The vice president can be all of that, but I think he has to, as my kids would say, he has got to get out there. He has got to go for it. Peoplhave got to say, "This is someone who wants to win, but he wants to win for all the right reasons, and he is going to bring out the best in our country." People are ready for that. Let`s get going.

Borger: Senator Breaux, do you think that`s the vice president`s biggest problem, or is it issues?

Breaux: Well, Gloria, I think, number one, you have to be very partisan to get your party`s nomination, but you have to almost appear non-partisan to get elected president of the United States. I think we all have to remember that you could get 110 percent of the Democratic base and you still would not have enough votes to become president of the United States, and that`s difficult to do even in Louisiana.

I mean, you have to expand your base. You have to appeal to independents. And it is a question of how you do that. And I think the message has to be a centrist message. It worked for President Clinton. And I think it could work again.

Borger: Let me askÂ…

Wellstone: But all these labels are irrelevant. The point is you have to have a politics that speaks to the concerns and circumstances of people`s lives and includes people. I think all of us agree on that.

Borger: John Zogby, is the danger here for Al Gore that George Bush is reassembling the Reagan coalition right now?

Zogby: That certainly is a danger, especially insofar as he`s picking up blue-collar support and crossing over to some traditional Democratic constituencies. But I`ll tell you a lot could be said for Gore`s strategy of laying low right now, not shooting the whole wad too soon, waiting until after the convention.

But if I were him, I would certainly be concerned about the group that calls themselves progressives or very liberal. Some of those include disaffected Bradley supporters who may vote for Ralph Nader, and some of those may also include Ralph Nader supporters who might otherwise not vote at all. I would certainly be concerned about the Nader constituency and vote on the left.

Schieffer: Quickly, Senator Kerry.

Kerry: I just think that this campaign is not yet engaged, and people have to understand that. Over the course of the next few months, when Al Gore draws the distinctions on the environment, where he has been a remarkable leader - I mean, global warming is now resurging as an important issue.

Look at the economy - the jobs created, the extraordinary surplus. We`re paying off debt for the first time in American history. Al Gore was, honestly, a key part of that decision-making process.

And as Americans really focus on what they have today versus what they had when George Bush was president, I think you`re going to see a very dramatic shift, and also you`ll see Al engage, I think, in the way that he did with the primaries in New Hampshire and Iowa, and I think you have a very different story. But everybody needs to be a little bit patient.

b>Schieffer: At least something kind of fun to talk about on a rainy Memorial Day. We`ll obviously hear a lot more about all of this.. When we come back, we`ll turn our focus to another big story of the week: whether the president ought to be disbarred, in a minute. Thank you, gentlemen.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Schieffer: And joining us now from Chicago, Arkansas congressman Asa Hutchinson. With us here in the studio, former White House counsel Jack Quinn.

We want to talk, of course, about this development this week, when a committee of the Arkansas court system recommended the president`s law license be lifted.

Asa Hutchinson, down when he was congressman - still is a congressman from Arkansas, of course. He just happens to be in Chicago today. He was one of the prosecutors during the impeachment. Jack Quinn is a former White House counsel.

Gentlemen, the president says there`s no precedent for this action. But that`s not true, is it, Jack? I remember that Richard Nixon lost his law license after he left the White House.

Jack Quinn, former White House counsel: Richard Nixon is not a precedent for what happened here in Arkansas. And we all remember that Richard Nixon literally threatened the foundations of this democracy. That was a wholly different case.

In point of fact, in the last several decades, as far back as people have been able to research in Arkansas, the only handful of remotely comparable cases have resulted in a reprimand, not disbarment.

There are a host of the reasons here why this thing really has a bad odor. One of them is that there`s no precedent for treating a non-practicing lawyer in this fashion. Another is that, you know, this committee that took this action had 14 members on it. Eight of them, who either knew President Clinton or had supported other Democrats, were pressured to step aside and not participate in the decision. That left six people, and we`re supposed to believe that they why neutral in this thing. It just absolutely defies belief.

Schieffer: Well, Mr. Hutchinson, what is your response?

Hutchinson: Well, I`m a little bit troubled by the attack on the Supreme Court committee. These are good people that are trying to administer and protect the system of justice. But, in fact, this committee was all appointed by the supreme court, which are, by and large, Democratic-elected officials. Secondly, eight did recuse themselves, but of the six that were remaining that made the decision, four of them voted in the Democratic primary. They identify themselves as Democrats.

And so, to say that again the president is a victim in this really points up that he is thinking it is all about him, when, in fact, this is about the legal profession. It`s about the integrity of the law and how lawyers conduct themselves. I think the supreme court of Arkansas, most of them Democrat officials, say this is important.

Quin: Can I respond to that?

Borger: Well, what is wrong with the argument that the president ought to be treated the same way as any Arkansas attorney ought to be treated?

Quinn: OK. Let`s start with that. Let`s start with the question why is this happening now? My goodness, last I looked, Bill Clinton was being president of the United States. Are there really moms and dads in Arkansas who are worried that Bill Clinton is going to be walking down the street and confront their kids with a loaded law license? This is crazy. The man is not about to practice law in the state of Arkansas. Why in heaven`s name would this committee take this action now? Why indeed? And I have to askÂ…

Schieffer: Why, Congressman Hutchinson?

Hutchinson: Well, I mean, first of all, if you look back to Richard Nixon, Spiro Agnew, none of those were going to practice law. You look at Jim Guy Tucker, the former governor of Arkansas, going through disbarment proceedings - Web Hubbell. And so, the legal profession is more about everyone who goes in and practices law in court, it`s about those who value the license to practice law. The president says he does not want to give that up.

Hutchinson: He`s a representative of the legal profession, and what kind of standards are we going to have in the law whenever the federal judge says this is serious misconduct, refers it to the committee. That is the initiation of this process. This is not about, "Let`s go get the president," it`s about the integrity of the legal profession again. TheÂ…

Quinn: I think, CongressmanÂ…

Hutchinson: Â…the judge said it was serious misconduct, and the courts are going to have to resolve it.

Quinn: With all due respect, everyone knows this is not about whether or not President Clinton should be a lawyer. You were a manager of the impeachment trial in the Senate. You are, on this show and a lot of other shows, out arguing that this punishing action should be taken against the president, who already has been through an impeachment and a trial in the Senate. It really just defies belief that this is not about politics. And I would submit to you that in the interest of the country, politics just has to be about something more noble than destroying one`s enemies.

Borger: Congressman Hutchinson, do you want to respond to that?

Hutchinson: Well, certainly we would agree with that and I don`t think this is about politics. Jack has not talked about the committee - the fact that this initiated by a federal judge. Is the committee supposed to ignore the serious conduct? I mean, what does he want the American public to believe that this is not an important issue, that the legal profession must address? The legal profession has a responsible to police itself; the president has not surrendered his license.

Schieffer: Well, let me ask Mr. Quinn this question: hen Judge Wright held the president in contempt, he made no effort to contest that or to challenge it in any way. How is it now he can challenge this when he was willing to let that just lie?

Quinn: Well, I can`t answer for him on that, but I will tell you that, were I in his shoes, I certainly would because this is without precedent, wholly unexpected and wholly unfair. I`m not suggesting to you that a measured proportionate response by the bar in Arkansas wouldn`t be appropriate. And if you look at precedent, a letter of reprimand is what would have been called for here. This was way disproportionate, way over the line, and really does just smack of something other than the merits.

Borger: Congressman Hutchinson, let me ask you the question about the future. If the president should be disbarred, would that have any bearing on whether the independent counsel would in fact indict him at any time in the future?

Hutchinson: It should not have any bearing whatsoever. They`re really totally separate issues. The impeachment is history and we`re glad it`s history, but the law has a responsibility here, and the independent counsel`s going to have to make a decision in the future.

But each forum you have the president saying that, 'Well, this is not the right forum for accountability; it can be addressed in another fashion.' Well, again, the Supreme Court committee probably did not want this dropped in their lap, just like the Congress didn`t want it dropped in their lap, but it is something they have to deal with, and the president is not a victim in this. This is something that is beginning with his own conduct.

Schieffer: All right and I`m sorry, but the time has run out. We have to leave it there. I`ll be back with a final word in just a minute. Thank you, gentlemen.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Schieffer: Finally today, some thoughts on Memorial Day. It was 34 years ago, just about this time of the year, when I was a hotshot young reporter for the Fort Worth Star Telegram and was two weeks away from completing an assignment in Vietnam.
Because my job had been to track down Texas kids and write stories about them, I`d spent most of my time in the field. But I didn`t want to risk getting killed in those final days, so I stayed closer to headquarters, which is why I went one day to a military hospital.

As it is when you`re young, I had somehow come to believe that I was bulletproof, but as I was led into that amputee ward, I suddenly realized just how permanent the scars of war can be. The war had become controversial by then, but as I talked with those men, boys, really, who had lost arms and legs and hands and feet, I realized that no matter who proved to be right about whether we should be in Vietnam, those arms and legs would never grow back.

I was never quite as brave after that, but the war would prove a turning point in my life, because it ld to my job here at CBS News. But I`ve never forgotten those young men who also went back to the world as they called it, not as nature made them, but as war left them.

On this Memorial Day, we honor those who gave their lives for our country, but we should also remember so many who also gave so much.

That`s it from us. We`ll see you next week right here on Face The Nation.

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