<i>FTN</i> Transcript - May 21

Bob Schieffer, CBS News Chief Washington Correspondent: Today on Face The Nation, the New York Senate race and China trade. New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani upset the political apple cart Friday when he pulled out of the Senate race against Hillary Clinton.

Shortly thereafter, Republican congressman Rick Lazio announced he was going to run and vigorously started attacking Mrs. Clinton. Will that work, and what are the biggest differences between him and Hillary Clinton? We'll ask him. Then we'll talk about the new dynamics of this race with George Pataki, Republican governor of New York, and one of Mrs. Clinton's top advisers, Harold Ickes.

Then we'll turn to the crucial vote on China trade coming up this week. We'll get both sides from Commerce Secretary William Daley and secretary-treasurer of the AFL-CIO, Richard Trumka.

Gloria Borger will be here, and I'll have a final word on our old friend Helen Thomas. But first, the New York Senate race on Face The Nation.

And joining us now from New York City, Congressman Rick Lazio. He may not be a senator yet, but he certainly is the biggest story on this Sunday morning. Congressman, welcome.

Rep. Rick Lazio (R-N.Y.), U.S. Senate candidate: Thank you, Bob. Great to be on.

Schieffer: Let me ask you this. You said in your announcement yesterday that what this race really is is it's about the ambition of Hillary Rodham Clinton. What do you mean by that?

Lazio: Well, what I mean by that is that people know who Rick Lazio is on Long Island, and New Yorkers are going to know who I am by the end of this campaign. They're going to know I'm a homegrown member of Congress. I've lived here my whole life. My wife is a native New Yorker. My children are going to New York schools. I've played on the Little League ballfields here.

Nobody has to question whether my ambition is about moving to the next political step for national office. This is about serving the people of New York as I have served them in the House of Representatives, and we're going to make this about - a campaign of ideas and bringing people together, unifying people, talking about empowerment and hope and opportunity and my record, the things that I stand for and the things that I've been doing in the House of Representatives.

Schieffer: Well, is what you're saying is that Mrs. Clinton is doing this to set a platform to run for president? Is that, in so many words, what you're saying?

Lazio: Well, I don't know what Mrs. Clinton is going to do, but I can tell you she's now trying to repackage herself as a New Democrat, and she's no more a new Democrat than a New Yorker. The fact is is that we're going to be engaging her on a whole range of different issues. You know, people can talk about different things, like helping breast cancer survivors or helping to clean up the environment, but I have been doing it.

Last week, we passed twmajor pieces of legislation that I helped author, one the Breast and Cervical Cancer Treatment Act to help low income women get cancer treatment. The other bill to help clean up the Long Island Sound. I have one of the strongest records on the environment in Congress, and I'm proud of that.

And we're for lower taxes. We're for keeping a balanced budget. I don't recall Mrs. Clinton being in New York's corner over these last eight years during her husband's administration when New York needed some help. I know I was out there working hard to make sure that we took care of teaching hospitals, reforming welfare and making sure that working New Yorkers got tax relief.

Gloria Borger, U.S. News & World Report: Congressman, speaking of her husband, Bill Clinton, do you believe that he is going to be an asset or a liability to her in this campaign?

Lazio: Well, this campaign won't be about Bill Clinton. This campaign has got to be about Mrs. Clinton and myself. My record, who I am, who she is, where she came from - whether it's Illinois or Arkansas or Washington - and me, just a plain old New Yorker. I think we'll relate well to New Yorkers on that.

I mean, I'm not a millionaire. I'm not a rich guy. My father was a small business owner. He had an auto parts store. I used to work in that. I think people are going to look for somebody to serve them in the Senate that they can trust, that they can believe in and is one of them.

Borger: Congressman, let's talk about your record then a little bit. The supporters of Mrs. Clinton say that you are a Newt Gingrich Republican. Do you take that as an insult or as a point of pride?

Lazio: First of all, I think it's laughable. Second of all, this campaign will be no more about Newt Gingrich than it is about Bill Clinton. This campaign - unfortunately I think for Mrs. Clinton, it's going to be about Mrs. Clinton and myself and our respective records -where we come from, who we are.

Listen, I am a strong family man. I believe in the community. I've worked hard to try and make improvements in the community. I'm going to work hard for the train station in Babylon, the road in Bay Shore, the school in Lindenhurst.
Borger: But you are a deputy whip in the Republican leadership, you know, in the Congress. Do you believe, for example, that Tom DeLay has been a good Republican leader?

Lazio: What I'm going to say is that Tom DeLay is not running for Senate.

Borger: No, but answer that question. Has he been a good leader?

Lazio: He has done a good job as whip, and let me tell you something. I mean, this job - people are going to try to make this about everything but Hillary Clinton and Rick Lazio. New Yorkers deserve better. They want better. They want engagements on the issues. We're going to have debates. We're going to talk about our differences on health care, on taxes, on the environment, on education. We'rgoing to be talking about things that I believe in, things that I have done.

You know, my work in public housing, in helping the homeless, helping to empower people, my work in helping disabled Americans. And perhaps the most important advance for disabled Americans since the Americans With Disabilities Act was a bill that was signed into law at the end of last year, the Work Incentives Improvement Act, allowing disabled Americans to go to work and keep their benefits. That's who I am, and that's who I think New York wants.

Schieffer: Congressman, the Democrats are already saying, and I'm using their words not yours, that there's a stature gap here, that Mrs. Clinton is a national figure who has identified herself with national issues and that basically you're just a Congressman who doesn't have the heft for the job of the Senate. I want to give you a chance to respond to that.

Lazio: Well, I know this. I know that I have been a legislator for eight years, and that's more than my opponent can say. I know that I have delivered for New York, and that's more than my opponent can say. I know that I'm a lifelong New Yorker, who is married to a lifelong New Yorker, and two children being raised in New York schools, and that's more than my opponent can say.

And I know that by this time, 42, which is what I am, Theodore Roosevelt was already president, that my fellow Long Islander. So they can make age or anything else, you know, an issue if they like. But in the end, I think New Yorkers are going to look at this race. They're going to say, "Rick Lazio reflects New York. He is one of us. He comes from us. He's for us. He will fight for us. He will be in the majority," which is very important for New York. New York does not need to have another liberal Democrat sitting in the minority in the Senate. It needs to have somebody who will be the voice of New York, who will be independent but will also be sitting in the majority. And that's who I am.

Schieffer: Congressman, one final question. Would you debate Mrs. Clinton here on Face The Nation?

Lazio: Well, I'm really looking forward to a number of debates with Mrs. Clinton. I just think we have fundamental differences. I'm looking forward to the people understanding that. We're going to be talking about them throughout the campaign. I'd like to do a ton of them.

I've been in this race less than 24 hours, though, Bob. If you can give me a little bit of room here, we'd like to continue the dialogue, but we're going to have a ton of debates. I'm looking forward to them.

Schieffer: OK, well, thank you very much.

Lazio: Thank you, Bob. Thanks, Gloria.

Schieffer: See you down the campaign trail.

Lazio: No doubt.

Schieffer: And we're not going to stop there, of course. Joining us now, New York Governor George Pataki. He is in New York. And here in Washington, Harold Ickes, whis one of Mrs. Clinton's closest advisers, perhaps her top adviser.

Governor, let me ask you this. Is Rick Lazio a better candidate than the other fellow?

Gov. George Pataki (R-N.Y.): He's a better candidate than Hillary Clinton, I'll tell you that much, because he knows New York. He's from New York. He's one of us. And he's run for and held public office. I think as the people of New York get to know him, they're going to find that he has exactly the right philosophy, plus the background as a New Yorker that will allow him to do very well in representing New York's interests in Washington.

Schieffer: Well, you know what I was asking you about. Is he a better candidate than Rudy Giuliani?

Pataki: Well, you know, Bob, you don't look backward. I think Rudy Giuliani would have been a great candidate. He's been an outstanding mayor. He's made this city a far better place because of the Republican principles and policies that Rick Lazio and I and the mayor all agree on.

I think he would have been an excellent candidate, but I think Rick Lazio is equally a great candidate. And obviously, he's starting as an underdog. He's not as well known as the mayor is. But he will become well known, and when he does, he's going to win this race.

Schieffer: Rudy Giuliani collected about $9 million in his campaign war chest. Now it is possible for him to turn that over to the Republican campaign committee, and they, in turn, could spend it in Rick Lazio's behalf. Do you think he ought to do that?

Pataki: Well, Mayor Giuliani has told me and others that he will do everything he can to help Rick Lazio become our next senator. And I'm confident he will do that. Obviously, there are technical election laws and other things that have to be resolved. But the mayor, I am confident, will do what is appropriate to support Rick and help us win this race.

Schieffer: Clearly, that's what you want him to do. Well, let's get the other side of the story here. Gloria?

Borger: Mr. Ickes, let me have you respond to what Rick Lazio was saying about Mrs. Clinton's ambition. This race, he says, is all about her and her ambition.

Harold Ickes, Hillary Clinton adviser: Well, the race is not about any particular candidate. It's about the issues that Hillary has been talking about for the past year - education, health care, the future of upstate New York economy and New York's children.

I think it's odd and somewhat sad that Rick Lazio has said, "Watch my smile. I want to talk about the issues." But the past 24 hours, he's engaged in a fair amount of insult and political invective. We want to talk about the issues. There are, as Rick has said, there are some major differences on issues. We think that Hillary is on the right side of those issues and that Rick Lazio is just out of step with the mainstream of New York.

Borger: So you think the carpetbagger question is irreleant?

Ickes: It is certainly an issue that he can raise. I think that Hillary has been in all 62 counties. She has campaigned hard. She gets up every day and works. She's taking nothing for granted.

And she's going to continue that. And I think New Yorkers understand that - you're talking about New York. It's a very sophisticated state. Your accent doesn't matter. And when Rick Lazio says, "I talk like a New Yorker." Who talks like a New Yorker? I lived in New York for 30 years. It's a polyglot of accents.

So she is working hard and talking about key issues. There's some similarities with Mr. Lazio, but there's some very grave differences - education, et cetera - that are going to be debated and should be debated.

Schieffer: Well, Governor, what about this? Have we seen the tenor of what this campaign is going to be, because he came out with all barrels firing yesterday when he accused her - he said she's no more a new Democrat than she is a New Yorker. Is this what this campaign is going to be about?

Pataki: Well, I think it will be about whether or not Hillary can fool the people into thinking she is a New Democrat. She is clearly an old left Democrat, tried to socialize health care, opposed legitimate tax cuts that will make our state's economy stronger. And Rick Lazio is a very solid centrist who will appeal not just to Republicans and conservatives, but moderates and independents and Democrats as well.

Now Harold is saying, Hillary wants to talk about health care, Hillary wants to talk about helping our children. Rick Lazio has already done it in Congress. He passed a health care bill that allows New York state to provide access to insurance for every single child in this state.

I think there is a huge difference in philosophy. There's a difference in accomplishment. And Rick Lazio has done an outstanding job fighting for New York in Congress, and he will do a great job fighting for New York in the U.S. Senate.

Borger: Mr. - let me have you, Mr. Ickes, let me have you respond. The governor says that Mr. Lazio is the centrist and that Hillary Clinton is the liberal.

Ickes: Hillary Clinton is for the balanced budget. She is for welfare reform. She is for targeted tax cuts. She is for the death penalty. I think it does not serve this campaign well to hurl labels. New Yorkers are not going to vote for labels, Gloria, they're going to vote for issues.

Rick Lazio voted against the 1993 deficit reduction package that laid the basis for this economic revival. He voted to eliminate the Department of Education. He voted to cut out school lunch programs. He voted to decrease aid to disabled children. That is a record that he is going to have to talk about. And that's a record he's going to have to defend.

We look forward to joining the issues - the issues on those kinds of issues.

Schieffer: Let me ask you, Governor, already the people on Mr. Ickes' side ar saying that he's a Newt Gingrich Republican. Is he? And is that a good thing?

Pataki: f course not. And that's what they're going to try to do. They're going to try to use labels as opposed to facts because they cannot defend Mrs. Clinton's philosophy. They talk about his voting against the deficit reduction package. What they don't say is that was the largest tax increase in the history of America. And I think any person who has good common sense should have voted against that massive tax increase. They'll never tell you that side of the story.

Schieffer: All right.

Pataki: But there are two real differences here. There is someone who understands and represents the needs of New York and will be an effective senator in Rick Lazio. And there is Mrs. Clinton, who has the same philosophy as Mario Cuomo that was rejected overwhelmingly by the people of this state because they know those policies don't work.

Schieffer: Right. All right. Both of you, I'm sorry. I could listen to you all afternoon, but we must move on. When we come back, we'll talk about this China trade vote, in a minute. Thanks to both of you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Schieffer: This week, the House of Representatives is going to vote on whether to grant permanent normal trade relations to China. Here to talk about this very controversial issue - Richard Trumka of the AFL-CIO and Commerce Secretary William Daley.

We're going to talk to Mr. Trumka first. Why is this such a bad deal for China to be a part of the World Trade Organization, Mr. Trumka?

Richard Trumka, AFL-CIO: Well, first of all, it's not about sending U.S. products to China. If you look at the Web sheets of all the major multinational corporations, it's about relocating American production facilities in China and then having American corporations use it as a staging platform so they can service other markets.

Every one of them say that they'll move production facilities away from here. Now, they want it to be permanent so that they can build that factory and not have to worry about us taking some action because China did something outrageous with religious rights or human rights or environmental rights or labor rights. So it's about three or four things. It's about ethically it's a bad agreement, morally it's a bad agreement and economically it's a bad agreement.

Schieffer: Well, I know in just a minute, Mr. Daley's going to say all of that, that that is not so. But I would just ask you a more general question.

Trumka: Sure.

Schieffer: How can you exclude one-fifth of the world's population andÂ…

Trumka: See, that's thatÂ…

Schieffer: Â…and build a wall around them over there?

Trumka: See, that is the fallacy of this argument, and he'll tell you, if he's being sincere about this, we're not saying exclude them. Right now, they have most favored nation status ith us. We're saying keep the vote. We vote on that every year. Congress gets a chance to vote on whether that relationship with China will continue.

They're already trading with us. It's a bad imbalance. I mean, we have a $70 billion deficit with China that's cost us over 800,000 jobs already, but we're not saying isolate them. We're saying keep it the way it is right now. Let Congress vote every year so if China does something outrage, if they deny or violate the agreement, just like they violated the last four trade agreements that we've signed with them, then we have a lever.

Elsewise, we're giving that away because the instrumental word here or the key word here is "permanent normal trade relations." We can't go back and do it again.

Borger: Mr. Trumka, your union is in kind of a funny position right now because Al Gore, whom you've supported, is for this trade agreement. What do you do?

Trumka: Well, I'll tell you, let's see who's for it first. The president's for it. George W. Bush is for it.

Borger: And Al Gore is for it.

Trumka: And Al Gore is for it, and so is the Republican leadership. Al Gore has said to us on numerous occasions that he'd been negotiating an agreement and future agreements, there will be labor rights and human rights and environmental rights.

Borger: But there are side agreements in this agreement, aren't there?

Trumka: No, no. If we sign thisÂ…

Borger: There's a proposal on the floor to monitor human rights.

Trumka: That's a toothless piece of paper that everybody agrees is toothless, but there are none. We waive all rights to inject human rights and labor rights in the WTO if this is signed.

Borger: Let me ask you the bottom line then, politically, will your union, the AFL, work against any Democrat who votes for this measure?

Trumka: Here's the way...

Borger: Â…world to defeat them.

Trumka: This is a very, very serious issue with our membership. And I don't think anybody can tell you right now this is the political fallout from it. They feel strongly. They have three or four courses of action. They can sit and do nothing, which they could. That's what they did in 1994. After NAFTA was passed, activists in our movement and across the country sat and did nothing. This could have a devastating effect, or it could have very little effect.

We'll go to our membership and say here's the total package. And when you look at the total package, Al Gore has supported working people for his 30-, 40-year career. He's always been there for working people, and we would expect him to be there for working people in the future.

Schieffer: All right. Well, let's listen to Commerce Secretary Daley for a little bit now. What about this, if this is a bad thing for China to be a part of the World Trade Organization?

William Daley, U.S. Commerce Secretary: We thinit's a good thing. It is encouraging to see China begin to change. And we should take the steps to make sure that we encourage them. The Europeans have just reached an agreement. We've reached an agreement. All 135 nations of the WTO have come to the conclusion it is good to keep encouraging China to change. That's what this process is about.

The permanent normal trade relations will give us the opportunity. Rich Trumka's right. We have not sold the goods into China. We have a trade imbalance because that's a market that's been closed to us. This agreement for the first time gives us a chance to have an opportunity to do business there, not the other way around. The annual process, all that does is say to China once again, keep selling your goods in this country with nothing in return.

Schieffer: Let me just can ask you the question I should have asked you first because it's the most important. Have you got the votes to pass this? What is the vote count?

Daley: We don't have the 218 to pass it, and the opposition do not have 218 at this point, in my opinion, to stop it. So it's a difficult three days for all of us. There's a number of undecideds, both amongst Democrats and Republicans. And this is a fight that is really a bipartisan fight. There are Republicans who are against us. There are Democrats who are against it. There are Democrats for it, and there's Republicans for it.

Schieffer: Well, I guess the Republicans, they say you need about 150 Republican votes and from 70 to 80 Democratic votes. Do you think you're around 70 yet on the Democratic side?

Daley: I think we will get close to that number, and I think the Republicans will get close to their 150 to get to 218.

Schieffer: But you're not there yet?

Daley: But, no, we are not there.

Borger: Mr. Daley, how do you respond to Mr. Trumka when he says that the Chinese have violated trade agreements in the past, that perhaps they'll just violate this one again?

Daley: First of all, you have them in a process with the rest of the world, 135 countries in the same process, to make sure they live up to their commitments. It won't be the U.S. alone.

We have also, by virtue of our tough negotiations, gotten unique to China, import surge protections. We've gotten the ability to use our non-dumping methodology for another 15 years. So we've got strong protections in this agreement. But make no mistake, we do not hide the fact that this will be difficult for China to make this transition to a more open and democratic - or a more open economy.

And we are prepared - and I believe the next administration under Vice President Gore will be very prepared to make sure that they live up to these commitments.

Schieffer: But if these companies do move factories to China, aren't American jobs going to be lost?

Daley: There's no way anyone can stop companies from moving their plant anywhere. This isn't about - Mr. Trumka isn't saying we should enact laws that stop American companies from opening plants around the world if they find that that's in their benefit to service different parts of the world.

But for the first time, under this agreement, we'll have a chance to sell into China. And basically we've been blocked from selling in that market for now 20 years.

Schieffer: All right. Well, gentlemen, I want to thank both of you.

Trumka: Thank you.

Schieffer: We'll be back. We'll be hearing a lot about this this week. Thanks to both of you for being here today. We'll be back in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Schieffer: Time for a quick roundtable here. Gloria, I think that the administration, in fact, is feeling pretty good about passing the China bill. This is going to be very close, maybe one or two votes. But the feeling on Capitol Hill this week was that they believed they got this one.

Let me ask you about this New York Senate race. The number-one thing for Rick Lazio is to get himself known. How do you think he's doing?

Borger: Well, he's taking sort of a risky strategy here. He's clearly out there on the attack. But what he's doing is he's trying to make this race about Hillary Clinton. He's raising the carpetbagger issue. He wants to define her before she gets a chance to define who he is. He's trying to make himself into a centrist. They're trying to make him into a right-wing Republican. We're just going to have to see who wins that fight.

Schieffer: I must say in some ways watching him this morning, he may, in many ways, be a more attractive candidate than Rudy Giuliani, but voters in New York will decide that.

Our final word today, I just want to say a word about Helen Thomas, who had been UPI's White House correspondent for 40-some odd years. She retired this week. We're all going to miss her very much.

The president's press secretary Joe Lockhart was right when he said, "It just won't seem like the press room without Helen Thomas sitting there." The best part about Helen was that presidents came and presidents went, but they never scared her. She treated them with polite respect. But no matter how they treated her, she just kept asking questions, which is what reporters are supposed to do.

The worst mistake a government official could make was to try to big deal her because they all looked alike to Helen. My favorite memory of Helen was the time that Henry Kissinger walked into the press room and said he couldn't really explain what he needed to say in the 20 minutes that had been allotted to him, to which Helen responded, "Well, just start at the end." Even the old professor got a chuckle out of that one.

That's it from Face The Nation. We'll see you next week right here.

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