<i>FTN</i> Transcript - Dec. 3

Bob Schieffer, CBS
News Chief Washington Correspondent: Today on Face The Nation, nine days and counting until December 12, when Florida must have its slate of electors. Yet the legal wrangling goes on in Florida, and the nation waits for the Supreme Court to decide on the recounts.

How long will Vice President Al Gore continue to contest the election? And what are his options? We'll ask one of his top advisers, former Secretary of State Warren Christopher?

And what are George Bush's options? We'll get his side from one of his top lawyers, Ben Ginsburg.

Then we'll talk to two influential Democrats about what the vice president should do: Senator Robert Torricelli of New Jersey, and Senator John Breaux of Louisiana, who has been talking to Bush and Gore.

Gloria Borger will be here and I'll have a final word on career choices. But first, Warren Christopher on Face The Nation.

Joining us from Los Angeles, where he thought he was taking a little time off back home, former Secretary of State Warren Christopher; with us from Tallahassee, Florida, Bush attorney Ben Ginsburg.

We want to begin with Secretary Christopher. Mr. Secretary, just a while ago, Dick Cheney told our friend Tim Russert flat out, it is time for Al Gore to resign. What is your response?

Warren Christopher, Gore adviser: Bob, I certainly don't agree with that. There is no reason for him to resign. Maybe he meant concede. But there is no basis for doing that at this point.

Schieffer: Well, he said - that's what I meant. He meant that he should concede.

Christopher: Bob, it's late innings, but it's far from over. We're waiting for three very important court decisions: first, the Supreme Court of the United States, where both you and I heard that interesting argument last Friday. Second, the proceeding that's now going on in Tallahassee, Florida, in Judge Sauls' court, where we're seeking a recount by hand of the votes cast in two important counties. And third, there is still the proceeding there in Tallahassee before a different judge involving the absentee ballots from Seminole County and another county in Florida. So, it's certainly far too early to concede with those three proceedings going forward.

Bob, there are a couple of interesting overnight developments that I think underscore that. First, the vice president's increase in the popular vote has now gone to over 300,000. And second, I was just amazed to find last night that in New Mexico, the Republican counsel there, asked for a hand recount of the New Mexico ballots. I was so surprised by that, I asked to see the letter myself. But there is indeed a letter from the lawyer there who represents the Republicans asking for a hand recount. So this is far from over.

Schieffer: All right. Let me ask you, the Supreme Court, no matter which way it rules, it seems to me, whether it rules that the counting of voes should have stopped on November 14, or if the Florida court was out of order in saying the count could go on for another week. Any way, the deadline comes - in that case that's before the court - George Bush still winds up on top. What is it the Supreme Court could do that could help Al Gore at this point?

Christopher: Well, if they hold that the Supreme Court of Florida acted correctly, I think that would be a big psychological boost for the Supreme Court. The proceeding now going on in Tallahassee before Judge Sauls will almost certainly wind up in the Florida Supreme Court. And were the United States Supreme Court to say favorable things about the Florida Supreme Court, as many of them did in court the other day, Bob, I think that would be a big boost, and would make it clear that the Florida Supreme Court has got a lot of running room in the way they handled this matter.

Gloria Borger, U.S. News & World Report: You've been watching those proceedings in Judge Sauls' court. Do you believe that the Bush legal team is slow-walking that case just to run out the clock on the Democrats?

Christopher: Well, when they named 95 witnesses, and then yesterday reduced it to 20, and now down to seven, it certainly seems to me that the matter is going along very slowly.

The Gore team called only two witnesses, who were making very narrow points. First, that the judge should review the ballots himself. And we're showing how inaccurate and how misleading the counts can sometimes be from the Votomatic machines. I think one thing that came through loud and clear yesterday was the Votomatic machines, that is the punch card machines, are five times more likely to cause "undervotes", or so-called non-votes than the optical scanner would be.

Schieffer: But isn't it true, Mr. Christopher, that it is in the Florida cases that we're hearing being argued out, that's really the only place that votes could be added to Al Gore's tally down in Florida? So I guess my question to you is if the court rules against you down there in Florida, then will Al Gore say it's time to go?

Christopher: Well, there are two court proceedings, Bob, as I said earlier, first in Judge Sauls' court. And either way that goes, it will probably appeal to the Florida Supreme Court. And then the Seminole County matter, which is in a different court, that could have a very important result as well.

So, as I say, it's late innings, but the contest is not over. I can assure you that the vice president, when the time comes, will concede in a very gracious way. He understands his obligations to the people of the country.

Borger: Do you know when that time - do you have a set time in your mind about when that time would be?

Christopher: No, I don't, because it depends upon when the Florida courts rule. The date of December 12, of course, is an important date.

Borger: Let mask you very quickly, Mr. Christopher. The Republicans in the Florida state legislature are saying that they are going to have a special session. They're going to elect their own state of electors - their own slate of electors. What would be the result of that? Would that create some kind of constitutional crisis here?

Christopher: Well, that would certainly be a serious mistake on their part. To substitute their will for the will of the voters of Florida, I think, would be very divisive for the country. I think neither the vice president nor Governor Bush should want that kind of a result. It would create a very serious situation, and I think one that would cause far more difficulties than it would solve.

Schieffer: All right. Warren Christopher, thank you so much for getting up early to be with us this morning. You're out in California. Let's turn now to Bush attorney Ben Ginsburg, who has been in the courtroom down there in Leon County. He is just outside right now. Mr. Ginsburg, thank you, too, for joining us. Let me begin by just showing you ...

Ben Ginsburg, Bush attorney: Thanks. It's nice to be here.

Schieffer: ... and our viewers the paper that you're reading this morning down there, The Miami Herald, and what the Herald says in its lead story is - they did an analysis in which they conclude that if the uncounted votes followed the same trend as the votes that have been counted, Gore would win Florida by 23,000 votes. And the way they come to that conclusion, obviously, is by saying the trends in the big Democratic counties where Gore got most of his votes. What is your comment on that analysis?

Ginsburg: Well, I think the analysis was statistically flawed, to be charitable. What it assumes from the beginning is that every ballot cast would have gone to a presidential candidate. In other words, every voter that went in chose a presidential candidate.

Now, you know from your own polling, from the election night polls that you do, from the statistics in every other state, that that simply isn't the case. And, in fact, I think somebody wanted a preordained result for a big headline. But as a matter of solid statistics, I'm afraid that story is sadly lacking.

Schieffer: When do you think the hearing down there is going to be concluded, because I think most people are beginning to say, at least around Washington, that while the Supreme Court hearing was historic, as our own consultant Andrew Cohen said, "it's the sizzle." The real steak is right down in that courtroom where you are, and over in Seminole County. When do you think that's going to wind up?

Ginsburg: Well, Judge Sauls, this morning, expressed a strong desire to have it wrapped up today, and we're certainly going to comply. But I would just point out that their own expert witnesses, their two witnesses that they put on, took up nearly eight hours yesterday. SI think that part of the reason we didn't finish up yesterday was the way they tried to make their case.

Borger: How worried are you about that absentee ballot case in Seminole County right now? There are some 14,000 ballots involved.

Ginsburg: Well, you know - I think Secretary Christopher made a fascinating admission there. The Gore forces down here on the ground have been trying hard to disassociate themselves from that case. Secretary Christopher embraced it today. That case is an attempt to disenfranchise nearly 20,000 Floridians. At the same time, the Gore forces are saying, "Gee, we got to count all the votes in their counties." They're trying to disenfranchise two whole counties, total absentee voters, for a technical mistake. I think that the whole body of law is overwhelmingly committed to not disenfranchising voters in the way the Gore forces are trying to do.

Borger: Secretary Christopher also said that it would be a serious mistake for the Florida legislature to meet and elect its set of electors for George W. Bush. What do you think about that occurring?

Ginsburg: Well, I think the Florida legislature has expressed - has expressed its desire to be sure that its prerogatives, as allowed for in the United States Constitution and Florida law are provided for, and that includes the ability to clear up and enfranchise Florida voters if it appears that the legal wrangling is going to leave Florida without a clear slate of voters.

It's also interesting to note that Secretary Christopher apparently prefers, and all the Gore forces prefer, to have this matter resolved in the courts. I guess the Supreme Court, with appointed judges, judges appointed by Democratic administrations I might add, as opposed to the Florida legislature, where the entire house was just elected by the people of Florida this November, and half of the Senate was elected this November and will face election in November of 2002.

So at worst, what you would be doing if the Florida legislature decided this, had to decide this because of the legal morass, is turning it over to a group of individuals who were elected by the people of Florida just this past November.

Borger: So, isn't this the ultimate safety net for George Bush then?

Ginsburg: Well, I'm not sure it's the ultimate safety net or not. What I think it is is the legislature wanted to be sure that Florida voters aren't disenfranchised, if all these constant challenges by the Gore forces - indeed, the first time in our history anyone has contested in court a presidential election - leads to no conclusion where Florida's not represented.

Schieffer: Mr. Ginsberg, we want to thank you for coming by this morning. I know you want to get back into the courtroom.

Ginsburg: Thank you, a pleasure to be with you.

Schieffer: I appreciated you stopping by. When we come back, we're going to hear rom two key Democratic senators, one of whom has been talking to both Bush and Gore, in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL)

Schieffer: With us now from New York, Senator Robert Torricelli of New Jersey; here in our studio, Senator John Breaux of Louisiana.

Senator Breaux, let me start with you, because I know you've kind of been talking to both sides. Yesterday down at his ranch in Crawford, Texas, and I think we have some pictures here, we saw Governor Bush meeting with Majority Leader Trent Lott in the Senate; he's the one in that hat.

Breaux: Nice hat.

Schieffer: I've never seen him in that hat before, and also Speaker Dennis Hastert, he's your next-door neighbor. Did you buy him that hat?

Breaux: That's not a Louisiana hat.

Schieffer: It's not. I guess we ought to get serious here. Senator Breaux, there are reports, we heard both Secretary Cheney this morning and we heard Andrew Card, who's apparently going to be Mr. Bush's chief of staff, if in fact he is sworn in as president, sound some pretty dire warnings about the economy. Cheney said, in fact, we may be on the edge of a recession, and he said that's one reason we need a tax cut. Do you think that's an accurate forecast?

Breaux: Bob, I think that there's going to be plenty of time after we settle this election to talk about where we are from an economic standpoint. I don't think it's particularly helpful to base some of these very serious type of issues while this dispute is still going on. I mean, we're coming back this week as a Congress, and we may debate that on the floor of the Senate to some extent when we talk about a tax cut. But I don't think right now with the dispute going on, that that is particularly helpful talk.

Schieffer: Well, do you think there's any chance that the Senate or the House would pass the kind of tax cut that George Bush talked about in the campaign?

Breaux: Probably not the tax cut that either George Bush or Al Gore talked about. I think we have a very limited amount of time. I think we can do maybe a small tax cut with a minimum wage, maybe some add-backs on some of the Medicare providers, finish our appropriation bills, and I hope that would wrap it up.

Schieffer: Now, just let me ask you quickly, because I know the Bush people have put out the word that they've talked to you; they're sounding out people, perhaps you, being secretary of energy. Do you envision any way that you would join the next
administration, whoever it might be?

Breaux: Well, Bob, I did talk to George Bush. I've also talked to Al Gore and Joe Lieberman and stayed in touch with both of them. I think his call is appropriate. He's talking about wanting to work with both sides after this debate and dispute is over with.

I don't particularly think that I would be a very good secretary of anything. I enjoy the Senate, particularly with a 50-50 tie. Nothng was offered, and besides I was kind of holding out for ambassador to Chad, but I don't think that's going to happen either.

Schieffer: Would you rule out joining ...

Breaux: I wouldn't rule out anything.

Schieffer: ... a new administration.

Breaux: It's nice to be asked, or be considered, either by a Gore administration or a Bush administration, but my basic premise is, that the Senate is going to be a pretty exciting place to be in the next couple of years.

Borger: Senator Torricelli, let's talk about that Senate for a moment. Obviously now, we've got a 50-50 situation, with Al Gore being vice president. Can you envision a real power-sharing in the United States Senate? How do you think that's going to work?

Torricelli: Well, overshadowed by events in Florida is that an extraordinary drama that's going to unfold in the United States Senate. For the first time in the history of our country, there is going to be no operating majority in the United States Senate. And Trent Lott can continue to refer himself as the majority leader. I see John McCain seems to believe he's going to remain chairman of the commerce committee, but the numbers simply don't support that conclusion.

The division of these committees is going to have to be equal. There's going to have to be a co-majority leaders. The leadership of the Senate is going to have to reflect the voting of the people of the states, and that was an evenly divided Senate.

Whether people like it or not, whether they want it or not, we're going to have to learn to get along, come up with bipartisan solutions and have power-sharing in the United States Senate.

Borger: Are you saying that Democrats are going to demand co-chairmanships in committees?

Torricelli: I think that there's going to be a burden on the Republican leadership to establish on what basis, at this point, that all positions would not be shared. Under the Constitution, the vice president of the United States breaks deadlocks on the Senate floor in legislative matters. The vice president is not a member of the Senate. And the members of the Senate determine the allocation of its committees and its leadership. Senator Robert Byrd, who's the principal authority on the Senate and its precedents, has told our leadership there are simply no precedents to govern this situation.

Schieffer: Let me go back and make sure and underline I understand what you're talking about, because the conventional wisdom has been with the vice president breaking the tie, then the Republicans would in theory still be in the majority. But you're saying that in fact that's not true, that the vice president cannot vote on organizing the Senate.

Torricelli: I'm saying, Bob, that there are no governing precedents for this situation. Reasonable people should be able to come to a resolve. First, we should not go through these net two years where any change in the Senate membership causes a reorganization. But we should deal with the two years as a whole, and come to some larger solution. Second ...

Schieffer: In other words, you're saying that the Democrats and the Republicans have to get together and negotiate how the Senate is going to be organized, that the Republicans shouldn't just automatically say they're in the majority.

Torricelli: I think that from the question of the control of the floor and the majority leader and majority whip positions to the chairmanship of the committees to the allocation of the membership of the committees, this has to be discussed, negotiated, and should be settled.

This is both - the even division of the Senate is both a problem and an opportunity. It is a problem if it is not dealt with properly and every day is a fight for majority. It is an opportunity if it forces bipartisanship, and causes a power-sharing arrangement
where we discover that we have joint solutions on health care and rebuilding our schools, on a prescription drug benefit plan, on campaign finance reform. And I hope we approach it that way.

Borger: Senator Breaux, let's talk about Al Gore's fate for a moment. Early on you were saying that he ought to think about conceding. You seem to have pulled back from that a little bit. Where do you think Gore needs to draw the line? Is it in the court cases in Florida, or is it with the Supreme Court? How do you see this for him?

Breaux: Gloria, actually I've said that both of the candidates should consider withdrawing at an appropriate time, and I suggested that that time is when we have a definitive court decision about how the votes are to be counted, and they follow that recommendation.

I don't think the U.S. Supreme Court, by the way, is going to give us a definitive decision. I think what is happening in Judge Sauls' court right now today is going to be the definitive decision, and that will be appealed to the Florida Supreme Court. And I think that pretty much becomes a definitive decision on what happens in Florida.

Borger: So if Gore were to lose the case in Judge Sauls' courtroom, what should he do?

Breaux: Well, he shouldn't do anything, because either side who loses will appeal to the Florida Supreme Court. But the loser in the Florida Supreme Court, after they give specific directions, either one of them, I think, that's the time to call it a completion.

Schieffer: Do you agree with that, Senator Torricelli?

Torricelli: Actually, I do agree with that. I think, first, the burden falls on George W. Bush and Al Gore equally. And the burden to concede the election for the national interests comes as early as a definitive court decision or as late as December 12, when the constitutional provisions for the Electoral College dates begin to occur.

Until December 12, as Democrats and Republicans, we al have legitimate positions. There is a legitimate difference of view. But on December 12, those partisan distinctions need to change. Then we are starting to deal with the orderly transfer of civilian government and power in this country. And then we all cease to be Democratic and Republican members of Congress. And Al Gore and George W. Bush, at that point, should lose partisan allies, and we start to deal with the reality of the situation and the impact on our Constitution and government.

Schieffer: Let me go back and just clean up one detail here. I did not ask you what you thought about the dire forecasts about the economy that we heard coming from both Dick Cheney and Andrew Card of the Bush team today. Do you think that is justified, and do you think it is accurate?

Torricelli: I actually do believe it is justified. First, I just came back from the Middle East, from Syria, Egypt and Israel. There is a deteriorating international situation, and a perception abroad in Europe and the Middle East that there is now a vacuum of American leadership.

At home, the situation is no more reassuring. The economic situation has severely weakened, even deteriorated. To have 30 percent of the equity in the NASDAQ market, in a matter of months, evaporate, is going to have a profound economic impact on the country.

This country cannot afford to have a presidency of George W. Bush or Al Gore without legitimacy, with questioned authority, where we spend four years debating this election. This matter must get resolved for the national interest, and it must get resolved soon.

Schieffer: All right. Gentlemen, I'm very sorry, but I think our time is up. A very good discussion this morning, if I might say so. I'll be back in just a minute with a final word.

(COMMERCIAL)

Schieffer: Finally today, it was back in the 1950s, but to me it was just like yesterday.

I was in the first week of my first paying job as a reporter when my boss handed me a story that had been in the paper and said, "Call the mayor, and see what he has to say about this." I was terrified. Why should a high and mighty official like the mayor of Fort Worth talk to the likes of me?

But I got up my courage, swallowed hard, called the mayor's home number, and when his wife answered, I identified myself and asked to speak to him. The next thing I knew, there was the familiar voice of Mayor Tom McCann in my ear saying, "Yes, Bob." That's when I realized one of the great thrills of journalism: getting through to someone that everyone wants to ask a question.

Forty-three years later, I had the same thrill, Friday, getting to be where many Americans would've liked to be, inside the Supreme Court to hear the historic arguments about this election. It's an overworked word, but the court is still one of the last institutions in America that is awesome and fascinating.

I have no ide what the justices will decide. As Anthony Lewis so aptly put it in The New York Times yesterday, "the Court seemed as divided as the rest of us."

No, my only tip this morning is to young people who may be wondering about what they want to do with their lives. Take it from an old-timer: There are many ways to find happiness, but it sure is fun to be a reporter.

That's it for us. We'll see you next week right here on Face The Nation.

END