Aide Says Obama Has The Right Experience

Political Players is a weekly conversation with the leaders, consultants, and activists who shape American politics. This week, CBS News' Brian Goldsmith talked with longtime Democratic consultant, and key Obama adviser, David Axelrod about health care, experience, and what it takes to win--and to lead.

CBSNews.com: A Time magazine interview with Senator Obama just came out, in which he said he does not feel like the differences that have been pointed out by Senator Clinton are gratuitous. He thinks it's legitimate for people to question his experience. Do you agree with Senator Obama on that?

David Axelrod: I think that everyone would agree on that. I think when you are running for president of the United States, that's certainly one of the indices by which people measure you.

The question isn't whether your experience is important. The question is, what kind of experience and qualities are people looking for in 2008? And he has said many times, "If the qualification is a long Washington resume, then there are other candidates who meet that test." But this is a unique year in which, I think, people are looking for something different.

I think they are looking for someone who can get us past the bitter food fight we've seen in Washington for the last two decades, and bring this country together. They are looking for someone who has a history of pushing back on the special interests, who really dominate the decision making in Washington today. And they are looking for someone who will be forthright about the challenges we face and the things that we need to do to meet them.

CBSNews.com: He said that Senator Clinton's criticisms of him have not been gratuities. So when Senator Clinton says that his health care plan leaves out 15 million Americans, do you think that's a fair attack even if you disagree with it?

David Axelrod: I think you're specifically referring to his experience. And I think that was a legitimate discussion to have back and forth about ours, about hers, about everyone in the race. But on the health care plan, it is a completely bogus point.

The reality, and what he has said, is that he doesn't think the issue here is that the government is not forcing people to get insurance, as she would do. She wants, by law, to say that everyone legally has to go out and buy insurance. The problem is people can't afford insurance.

And his plan is to reduce the cost so that people can afford it, and help those who can't. And everyone in this country would be eligible for that. Now, the 15 million figure that she is drawing out there is a bogus figure, as far we're concerned.

CBSNews.com: But her counterargument is that if a mandate is good enough for children in your plan, why is it not good enough for their parents?

David Axelrod: Because children cannot make these decisions for themselves. Because parents have a responsibility. If you bring a child into this world, you have a responsibility to take care of that child.

And we require parents to put them in school, we require parents to give them inoculations. And that is a far different matter to equate, and seems hard to accept.

But the point is, her program, if you use her yardstick, leaves millions and millions of people out too [because mandates don't guarantee that people can afford coverage]. So she couldn't call her plan a universal plan.

CBSNews.com: Under Senator Obama's plan, if an adult made the personal decision that he or she did not want to purchase health insurance, is that okay?

David Axelrod: His plan is to make health care affordable and see where we are at the end of it. And then see how many people are left and address that. The truth is that in Massachusetts [where there is a mandate], the people who are not participating in the program turned out not to be the hale and hearty, it's people who can't afford the program.

Remember, it is a travesty that we have so many people uninsured in this country. But we also have 250 million who are covered, and they are struggling every day with the inflation in health care costs. And it is that base problem that we have to address. So this is not just an issue about the uninsured, this is an issue about the insured as well. Cost is the fulcrum of it, and that is what we have to attack.

CBSNews.com: Recently, your campaign has also focused on Senator Clinton's experience, and suggested that her time as first lady does not qualify as preparation to become president. Is it hard for voters to buy that after eight years of Republicans vilifying her as the power behind the thrown?

David Axelrod: Well the issue came up because over the past few days her supporters have said she was the face of American foreign policy in the '90s. And I do not think anybody really believes that. In that case, it was hyperbole.

And she claimed credit for experience in stewardship of the economy. And it is not really clear, other than her responsibilities in trying to shepherd a health care plan in the early '90s, what her involvement in the economic decisions were. So that's why those questions came out.

I would be the first to say a lot of those attacks against her were unfair and were a manifestation of an ugliness in our politics. But the fact is, she is a polarizing figure in our politics.

And if she were the nominee she would go into the general election with the highest negatives of any nominee that we've had in history. So, by definition, you have a much tougher mission. When half the voters say they won't vote for you, you don't have much margin for error. And if you win, it makes governing much more difficult.

CBSNews.com: What about the argument that any Democratic nominee, by election day 2008, will have negatives as high as hers? The only difference is that she is so well-known now, and that's why her negatives are high.

David Axelrod: Well the truth is that if you look at the Gallup Poll, she has had negatives that are higher than ordinary during a general election. And it has bounced around a little bit. She surpassed their low water mark a year and a half before the election.

That is not a good place to start. But, Senator Obama has had a history in his political career of crossing these lines and bringing Republicans and independents into the vote. He got an extraordinarily high number of Republican votes when he ran for the Senate.

He continues to attract Republican and independents wherever he goes. And I think it is going to take that to win the kind of election we need to win.

CBSNews.com: Do you think her negatives are at all her fault?

David Axelrod: I cannot apportion that by percentage. Obviously there are ways in which she approaches her politics over the years that have probably contributed. But a lot of it, as I said before, was that she became a focus of attack.

But it really does not matter. I mean, the reality is that it is what it is. And I do not think that when you make speeches and say that what we need to do in this country is turn up the heat on the Republicans, that you are likely to attract many Republican voters to your cause.

And I think Senator Dodd said today as well, we need to turn down the heat--and start to build a consensus for progress and change in this country. There are a lot of Republicans who feel disaffected and disconnected from their own party right now. I think they are willing to take a look at a Democratic nominee. I do not think we need to be stiff-arming them and sending them away.

CBSNews.com: You helped Senator Clinton's campaign for the Senate in 2000. And she has said before that she considered you a good advisor and a friend. Was it difficult for you to make the decision to work against her this time?

David Axelrod: First of all, it is difficult to work against friends. And she is a friend, and I have a lot of affection for her and a lot of respect for her.

But I didn't make a decision to work against her, I made a decision to work for Barack Obama. And I'm working for Barack because I believe that he offers the kind of qualities that this country needs right now.

And if Barack were not running, I would not be involved in any campaign this year. But I believe he offers the greatest hope for this country.

I've worked for John Edwards and Chris Dodd as well. I like them all. It is not a question of that. It is a question of who you think would be the best president of the United States in this period in our history when we need to get past all of this division and get down to solving problems. I think Barack Obama is that person.

CBSNews.com: It's been reported that you and Senator Obama have a lot of wide-ranging conversations, not just about politics, but about books, about policy. Can you share some of that with us so that we get some sense of what he likes to talk about that is not politics--and how his mind works?

David Axelrod: OK, he has got an expansive range of interests. Yes, our conversations do vary. He is a student of history.

We share an affinity for Lincoln, for example. And we spend a lot of time talking about Doris Kearns' book, Team of Rivals. He is a big movie buff, and we have had a lot of talks about great movies. And we tend to share taste on that. He is an avid sports fan.

And he spends a lot of time talking about his family and his kids. And I think part of that has to do with coming from his upbringing. Not coming from a kind of stable, nuclear family, I think he really relishes his family, his wife, his kids. So we just spend time talking about that, our families. He is very good company.

By Brian Goldsmith