ELIZABETH COOK:
00:00:00
All right. I want to have you take a look at this video. In the lower-left corner, you can see Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov wearing a CCCP sweatshirt as he arrived in Alaska for this summit. Now, that is the Russian acronym of the USSR. So let's bring in Serhii Plokhy, the Professor of History at Harvard University. Serhii, thank you for being with us. I wanted to show that moment leading into our interview, because it's sending a message to Ukraine and also a nod at Soviet nostalgia, frankly. You wrote a book called The Return ofHistory-- The Russo-Ukrainian War Through the Eyesof a Historian. Can you explain that picture as it speaks to the greater goal of Putin and Russia when it comes to Ukraine and frankly, Russia's position in the world? Well, it is very clear that there is this imperial nostalgia for great power, status of the Soviet Union, the Soviet glory, so to speak, that Putin now tries to bring back either through war and aggression in Ukraine, or by having this summit with the world's most powerful leader, President Trump. So for him, this is basically a recognition, also, of particular status of Russia today. But clearly, they want the world how it existed back in the 1970s, when Mr. Lavrov and Mr. Putin started their careers. So it is very imperialistic. Russia is hurting economically right now. It's lost hundreds of thousands of soldiers. But they are gaining some ground, at least they have in recent weeks, when it comes to fighting. Can you give us a sense of how they see this war, and how far they are willing to go when it comes to the fighting? Well, a lot of discussion is, of course, focused today on the front line, which barely moved in the last two years. In the last two weeks, Russians made some progress on their incursions into Ukraine. But the news today are coming that Ukrainians actually are fighting back and cutting off those operational units that got behind Ukrainian lines. So it looks like we see the situation that we had seen back and forth for the last two years. And it is very important to keep in mind that for Russia, this war is not for territory or not just for territory. Look at the map of the world. This is the largest country in the world. It is the war about dominance over Ukraine and eventually dominance over Eastern and Central Europe, so that is what is at stake. Not this or that village or this or that town on Ukrainian territory. Territory is important. But again, for this war, this is secondary. Many have argued that Putin has already won this summit just by appearing on US soil, in Alaska, because he wants a seat at the table with top world leaders. Do you see this summit that way? Well, clearly, he got what he wanted to get. He got the attention of the world. He got also a situation in which a leader of the country, against whom there is an arrest warrant, freely travels in the world and comes to the United States, as well. But there is also something that is also obvious from the pictures that we got from the summit. He is traveling to the United States. They are not even meeting on the neutral territory. And in that sense, clearly, this is not a meeting of equals. So there is something that Putin got out of that, and that's what Russian propaganda will be playing again and again. But in reality, he is in a weak situation. Otherwise, he would not accept this invitation, going all the way to the United States, not meeting, let's say, in Moscow, not meeting on the Russian-controlled territory, as, let's say, Stalin did with Yalta, and then with Potsdam, near Berlin, where he controlled the setting. He controls the territory. Could certainly eavesdrop on his guests. Putin can't do that now in Alaska.
ELIZABETH COOK:
00:04:30
I'm curious, what you think is going to come out of this conflict? Because President Zelenskyy, of Ukraine, has said there's a hard line. He does not want to give up any territory of Ukraine. Do you think that's even possible, though? Do you think there's going to have to be some exchange of land for this thing to end? Well, looking at the Korean War, looking at other conflicts in the world, of course, there can't be any discussion of the legal recognition of any territory taken over by aggressor. There is no peace treaty today between Russia and Japan since 1945 because there is a territorial conflict. But on the other hand, there are realities of the war. There are things like a ceasefire. There are things like the temporary agreements. And that would be probably the best case scenario under the circumstances, starting with ceasefire and then moving step-by-step toward a much more durable agreement. And no durable agreement can be reached without Ukraine being at the table. I appreciate you bringing up the topic of other countries, specifically in Asia, because I'm curious. I asked this question earlier about how you think China is watching this summit, and what they will be looking for? Even though they have their eyes on Taiwan. It's very different circumstances, but they have to be wondering, how this is all going to play out in terms of their future? Well, clearly, if Russia, in violation of all international rules, attacks Ukraine, keeps the territory, them being welcomed back as a member of international community, that will be a sign for China that, well, they can go and move forward and take over Taiwan, and of course, there will be a lot of unhappiness, but eventually, they would be welcomed back. And that was certainly the Russian calculation back in 2022. The former Russian president, Medvedev, stated that directly in February of 2022, before Russian attack on Ukraine. And there has to be concern by some of the European countries, though, that if Russia is allowed to keep some of the territory that it took from Ukraine, that it's not going to stop with Ukraine. It's going to keep moving forward. Correct? Absolutely. Because what that would mean is that the strategy that they use, that, that strategy works. And a lot of parallels were drawn, potential parallels, between the Yalta Conference, between the Munich Conference, and now meeting at Alaska. And the point was that each time you allow the aggressor to keep the territory, you welcome the aggressor back into the international community, the aggressor gets encouraged. It's actually once more. So it's not a paranoia on the part of Central European and especially Eastern European neighbors of Ukraine. This is just knowledge of basic history and understanding of realities. Professor Serhii Plokhy, thank you so much for being with us and for your insight into all of this.
