Extended interview: Madison Beer

You announced the tour. I did. And it ends with a bang. Yes, MSG. Yeah, and I know you've talked about it again and again over the years.

Yeah. That's your dream gig. Has been since before I started any of this. I always said my biggest dream is just to play Madison Square Garden.

Yeah. So we'll see if people come. I think they'll come.

That'd be cool. That's now where my brain is. I'm like, will they show up? I'll play it to an empty room, I don't mind. It would be fine anyway.

Why not? I'm still playing MSG, technically.

Yes, you are. Yes, you are. I'm sure it'll be a sold out MSG. But just even if it isn't--

It's still cool. It is. It's pretty wild. If you're a New Yorker, that's-- So many of my friends that I grew up with texted me this morning and were like, am I reading this correctly? It's surreal for, I think, all of us.

Yeah. It's very cool. You're doing The O2 in London too, which is-- which is not too shabby. I'm definitely really excited. This is like your biggest tour. Yeah, oh, for sure.

You talked about once, particularly, I think, it was with your first tour, that, that was really hard for you. Yeah. So I did like a smaller tour for my EP, As She Pleases, but it was short, and it was easy, and it was honestly, really fun. It was my first time ever doing something like that, so I think it was the buzz and the high of like, this is my first time. And that was super fun. And then my second tour was just a lot harder on me because it felt, I guess, I felt like I had a lot more pressure on me. It was a lot longer than my first tour, which I didn't anticipate was going to be wearing on me at all. I guess, it was just like lack of experience. I didn't really know what to anticipate. And it was tough to the point that I was like, I don't know that I can do this. And there's a lot of artists that don't tour at all because it just can be really taxing on you.

Yeah. I definitely had that thought after that tour, which was really painful. Because like I just said, my biggest dream in my life was to play Madison Square Garden. So obviously, touring and performing is something I love to do. So to have that thought of like, do I want to do this at all was painful. But, I clearly decided it was what I wanted to do. But it was tough. Right. How did you make peace with it?

I think I just was like, if I'm going to continue to tour, I need to do it in a way that's healthy for me. And I think I was comparing myself to a lot of other artists that are my age, that have a similar fan base, or whatever. And I was like, well, they can tour for a year and be fine. What's wrong with me? Why do I have this problem? But then, through a lot of therapy and whatnot, I was like, I don't have a problem. Everyone's just different. And what everyone has capacity for is different, and that's OK. And that's something that I also like to talk to my fans about, because I encourage them to also set boundaries and do what feels good for them and their own lives that's sustainable and healthy.

Yeah. This was the way I could do it. It's obviously part of music, but it's not necessarily what you got into music for. Absolutely.

You've been a singer since you were how old? Honestly, my mom always jokes that I came out of her singing, but I think I remember my first memory of really being in front of a camera and singing and knowing that I loved it and it was a part of me was probably when I was four years old. Yeah. Truthfully, it's just always been something that has given me joy and fulfillment and my escape in a lot of ways.

Sure. I love to sing. Were you aiming for that right from the get go? No. I mean, I think when I uploaded my YouTube video at 12, I truthfully was just looking to a lot of people who made covers on YouTube. Like, I don't know if you know Christina Grimmie. She is an incredible person and someone that I looked up to a lot. And that was who I was looking to. I was like, this is what I watch every day. This is what I love. So she was a huge inspiration to me. And it wasn't like I had my eyes set on Hollywood or Los Angeles or all this stuff. I think that felt kind of in the realm of fantasy a bit. Whereas uploading covers on YouTube, I could do that. That's within my own control. But everything else was definitely not what I thought was in the realm of possibility at all. I love that you sang "At Last." I was-- Oh, thanks. Well, just that you went back there. Yeah. Which not a lot of kids your age would do. Yeah. No, I've honestly always loved older music and things that felt soulful.

Yeah. I still do to this day. If you go in the car with me, you're going to hear things that are 70 years old. I saw you on a list-- if somebody asked you to make a list of songs-- I don't remember what it was, but you put The Zombies on there, which I loved. Yes. And Rod Argent wrote me a letter.

Really? Yes, a handwritten letter.

Wow. How incredible is that? It's framed in my house, and it just basically says, I saw that you had loved our music, and I just want to say thank you. And I love your album. He listened to my album.

Yeah. It was really cool. Yeah, that's very sweet. Very, very cool. Where did you get that from? Does that just family albums? What is that? I don't think so. I mean, my dad is like a huge Grateful Dead fan. And my mom has amazing music taste, as well. I think my parents definitely played music in my household growing up, but I think that was-- to credit myself-- my own like, self-discovery. I think it probably started with The Beatles. I became very Beatles obsessed--

Yeah. --quite young. And then that just transferred into what other music from this time period really do I connect with. I went down a really, really intense like '50s kick that I absolutely loved, and then I just became obsessed with '60s, '70s, even '80s music. The '50s to '80s is definitely my favorite, which is a wide variety. But if you're in the car with me, that's mainly what you're going to hear. Love the Beach Boys. Queen. I mean, I can go on and on.

You're in this very unusual place in that you have, I don't know how many. I've lost count. There's multiple gold records you have, but you actually have-- you made the Billboard Top 100 for the first time. Yes. Only took me 15 years.

Yeah, no, but you don't have any Top 40 hits, but you have all these gold records, and I'm like, how is this possible? It's weird. I don't know how the charts really work, to be honest with you. I don't either.

After all these years, I'm like, I don't know. But I think what's cool is that I definitely, I can joke and say it took me 15 years, but I think not having those things and the charting positions and whatnot has given me the freedom to not let them be something I tether my self-worth to or something that I feel is super important to me. I just-- some of my favorite songs, I mean, like my favorite songs by The Zombies is "The Way I Feel Inside," which is not one of their biggest songs. No. And, to me, I'm just like, I don't-- my songs don't have to be the biggest songs in the world for me to think they're great. And I think that, to me, the indicator of true success is if I feel good about it and if my community likes it. So many artists that are incredible, monumental people that we all love have not had number one songs on the radio and this and that. Some of my favorite artists of all time have never seen the chart. So it's just-- I think, of course, I'm not going to sit here and lie to you and say it's not cool and not something that I obviously would be extremely grateful for, but it's not something that drives me. I don't make music for that reason at all. I just want people to hear my music and enjoy it. That's really all I care. Well, it certainly hasn't kept you from getting an audience. Thank you. It's like-- It's cool. Yeah. MARINA is kind of like that. We were with her last year and-- I love her. She's amazing. I love her. Same thing. She's massive audience. I mean, artists like that. And those are the people who inspire me the most. Like, there are obviously also artists that are these top-charting artists that I love, but those are the people that I'm like-- I guess, it just feels-- it feels like more artistic in ways, I think, for me, at least. I look to some of those people and I'm like, it doesn't-- I never listened to an album and think, oh, this was intended for the charts. It feels like it was intended for your audience and for you. And out of the love of making music, which is, to me, what transcends all of that other stuff. Yeah. This is your third album. Yes. Where did this one take you? It took me all over the place. I started making it-- the course of making it, I definitely went through a lot of different changes in my personal life. And so you hear that on the album, where it takes you through this journey of a relationship, sort of, whatever. And I started it right when I finished my last tour, so I was super excited, and I was ready to get back in, and I was riding the wave of what I felt the fans and the live shows had heard and what they really enjoyed and what they responded really well to. And so I took that information. I feel like I really immediately made what I think is some of my best stuff. And then because I early on made stuff that I thought was great, I then second-guessed it, and I was like, well, it can't be that good if I made it so quickly. Because usually, it takes me years to make an album. So how did I just make six songs in three months-- Yeah. --so easily. Like, something must be wrong. So then I went down a spiral of for about a year, second-guessing myself, thinking that the stuff I made in the beginning can't be that good if I probably could beat it. And then I ended up returning back to pretty much everything I made at the start. So what you hear on the album are songs that I made right after my Spinnintour ended. So typically, how do you write? I like to block off chunks of time. I'm not really the kind of person that likes to go in the studio for a week and then go away and do my own. I like to be in the studio for three, six months, a year straight. Totally immersed in everything. Yeah. Because then, it feels like I'm like eating, breathing, sleeping the album versus checking in and out. How I'm with tour, too. I'm like, I'd rather a three-month block versus two months and then take two months off, and then--

Yeah. That's like, it's teasing me. I'd rather just block it out. Does that work for you? I think it does. I think it's better for me to be like, OK, there's an end in sight versus being like, oh, no, I'm ending for a month, and then I'm going back out. I'd rather like-- even in between my European leg and my US leg, I think, I have four days off, which I'd rather that than tease me with three weeks with my pets and my bed and whatever. I'd rather just go away for a while, but anyway. So when I'm in the studio, I never walk in being like, this is what we're making today. I usually go and sit down at the piano with whoever I'm in the room with that day helping me write. And chords are my number one. So I start with the chord progression, because to me, the chords provoke the most emotion. So I start with the chords. Once we feel like we have a chord progression that we like, I then usually instinctively will be like, OK, this is a heartbreak song. OK, this is a personal song. Whatever. And then, we'll start to lyric it. Usually, I'll have an SM7 mic in the studio really loud, and I'll just be singing melodies over it, that most of them are horrible, and then we'll comp it, pick a couple good ones, and then that's what I write to. And then once we have the lyrics down is when I'll really go in on the production. Yeah, that's a good day, though. That's if it really flows perfectly. So you're not one of those people who's like, walking around and suddenly something comes into your head and you put it on your phone and you wait till it or you do that, too? Sometimes, a melody will come in my head.

Yeah. But that's about it. I need to really be like, in the room with the piano, with the guitar, or whatever.

Yeah. And that's usually how my stuff gets written. But melodies, sometimes-- I'm sure if I went through my voice memos, I'd hear some random melody. Sometimes, I'll wake up from a dream, and I'll grab my phone half asleep, and I'll sing something into it. Do those usually work out? I honestly can't think of a time they did, so, no. But I like to save them just in case. Yeah. Then I picture the documentary, where I'm like, she wrote that in a dream. It was her biggest song. So I like to save them, regardless.

One day, maybe. Yeah. Do you determine that you're going to finish the album in that time period and that's it? Ideally, yeah. Usually, I go over time that I've allotted, but yeah, I definitely think that I luckily am in a position where now I can really call the shots of like when I want things to come out, when I want them to be done.

Yeah. Yeah, I try my best to stay on course. You wrote in your book, The Half Of It,about how important music is to you. Yeah. Has it ever disappointed you? I think the industry has disappointed me. I don't think that music has ever let me down, though. And I think creating music has always been comforting. And I think, maybe, the more I talk, the more I think, yeah, maybe there's been times where I feel like I'm not good enough. And sometimes, I'll make something that I'm just like, am I not able to create things on the level that I would like to, and there's that self-doubt. But I think music has never let me down, ever. You went through a lot when you were 15, 16, 17. Mm-hmm. How reliable was it then? Definitely, very reliable. I think I can think back and definitely say that creating my album Life Supportthen and even my EP was my escape, for sure. It's a place you can go to then, right? It just feels safe, familiar.

Yeah. No surprises. I think music is just like the universal language and makes you feel things that you can't really describe. And I knew that as a very, very young. When did you start writing songs? Know what's funny is I actually have-- I don't even know where it came from. I think it was on a DVD that then was downloaded, and somehow, I still have it on my desktop that I had when I was like 14, 13 years old. And I was on the beach in Miami, and there must have been a guy that was sitting there playing guitar. And he had some sort of little recorder or whatever. And we wrote a song together, and I was six, because in the song, I say that out loud. I'm like, my name is Madison, and I'm six years old. I sing it. I must have probably approached him and been like-- I wasn't alone, I would hope. But I think I probably approached him and was like, what are you doing? And then I just literally wrote a song.

Yeah. And then I wrote another song called "Butterfly" that I'll never forget because I still to this day know how it goes. And it's actually not so bad. And it's weird because now butterflies are very, very symbolic for me, and I feel like they're a sign of transformation and whatnot. But-- so six is like the earliest song I actually have a true recording of.

Yeah. So I've just been doing it forever. But I really didn't feel confident enough to write my own songs in the studio until I probably was like 21. Really?

Yeah. I wrote with people-- Right.

--but to actually voice my own opinion and really take the reign, or if someone pitched something, I felt too bad to say like, no, I don't like that idea--

Yeah. --just because I've been through the mill with the industry, and I don't know. I didn't really know how to navigate that. It was only in the last couple of years that I feel like I was able to really find my voice and my place in the studio. And people that really made me feel comfortable enough to speak that. I mean, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, you gotta-- first of all, it takes a while to figure out what your voice actually is. Yeah. And people forget that, I think, that I also have been so young, where you're also just figuring out who you are, in general, regardless of all of this stuff. I was a teenager, and I had no clue. And on top of it was being told by all the social media that everything I did was wrong and bad. And so, I think, I was just in a place where I was like, guys know better than me, you help me out, and I'll just take a back seat. But then, that didn't feel good to me anymore. How are you dealing with social media these days? Because I imagine on some level, you still have to cope with it. Yeah. I think it feels quite daunting at times. And part of me feels like I cannot get off of it because it is very tethered to what I do. And I also have a platform and there's a lot of people out there that I really do enjoy interacting with. And sometimes, I'll go on TikTok and I'll read my TikTok comments on my posts, and I really try to comment back to as many people as I can because interacting with those people makes me so happy just because our relationship is so special. My favorite thing on TikTok is when I'll be scrolling, and sometimes I'll get a live stream that-- like someone will be streaming on TikTok and they will be talking about me, or they'll be listening to my music as-- and I think it's a coincidence. Maybe it's not. But I'll always join the live and talk to them, and I'll say hi. And they're always like, oh, my goodness. And those are the moments that I love social media so much because--

Right. --we have never throughout history been able to connect with people that quickly, that easily. So it is such a beautiful thing at times. But I think that, unfortunately, being that every single person pretty much is on social media, there's just endless opinions, and--

Yeah. --you're never going to get the stamp of approval from everybody. And I know that, but I'm still someone who it's painful. It's painful to feel misunderstood. It's painful to feel wrongfully judged. And I'm not-- I don't know that I'm ever going to come to a place where I'm like, oh, I don't care, because I think it's normal to care about what people say. I try really hard to look away, and I think I've gotten a lot better at looking out for myself and being like, OK, that was enough reading for one day. I think you've seen enough.

Yes. Also knowing that when you're searching for a problem, you're most likely going to find one. And so just knowing that and also making peace with the fact that not everyone's going to see me or know me, and that's OK. And I like to think that the right people do. But I think it's human nature to want to be received correctly in some capacity. It's also given the way everything is structured these days, it's almost impossible not to confront it in some way. Totally.

And I mean, you write quite elegantly about dealing with it in your book. And I'm just-- and that's, what, it's like almost three years old now, I guess. Yeah. I feel like I've come further than where I was when I wrote this. I think I was still really, really hurt then. Yes.

I think now, I can separate myself a little bit more. And I feel like I can go to bed at night loving myself, and I don't know that I really need the validation from either side. I don't have Twitter on my phone anymore. I try to separate myself in the ways that I can. But it's really tricky, and, like you said, it's really hard to not confront it or see it. It's hard to avoid. Even if-- when a video goes viral of you that's negative, chances are, you're going to see it. And it's hard to just ignore. And I think people will say to me, oh, just ignore it.

Yeah. OK. You try that.

Try it. Let me know how-- let me know how it goes. One of the things that really touched me in this book was when you talked about how the whole incident you went through with the video, when you were-- the 10-second video, when you were 15 years old, that's still to this day, haunts you. What haunts me about it is how it was handled. Yes. Publicly. I think it is really sad for me to look back and know that I was a minor being absolutely destroyed on social media, trending on Twitter. This video circulating everywhere and being just shamed like I was some horrible, disgusting person. And it just-- that's what I look back at and I'm really, really devastated for my younger self. Because I agreed at the time. I was like, oh I must be-- something must be wrong with me. Yeah.

And I feel very free from that experience now. But I still see comments to this day that are like, it was your fault, and it was-- you're the one who did this, and you're the one who sent this. And it's still something that people have a difference of opinion on. You write in this about how it made you look at everybody differently and distrust people. Oh, absolutely. And that's very hard to get away from after something like that. Yeah. It was very disappointing. That still haunts me, for sure.

Yeah. Yeah. That's something that I still try to-- I really try to look for the good in people, and I really try to trust. It's mainly the trust issues thing. I think I still have a hard time. I deal with a lot of paranoia all the time.

Yeah. Constantly think I'm being filmed, being watched, being-- it's-- and I think it was ingrained in me probably through that experience.

Yeah. Then also compounding on that, seeing the response that it got online then instilled this fear in me that I'm like, OK, if I do something that I deem to be human and not evil whatsoever, I'm going to be ripped apart by millions of people. And that was sad. How do you keep moving forward when you're dealing with that? At the time, it was really difficult. I also don't think at the time regarding that, regarding everything that I was dealing with, 15, 16, whatever, I think, I felt really not protected by adults.

Yes. Now as I'm getting older, I am very disturbed by the fact that I was so young. Yeah.

No one thought to say, hey, this is an underage girl and this is unacceptable, and what are we doing? It was just like, do you have the video? Right. It's illegal to share this stuff. Correct. You lose your manager, you lose your lawyer, you lose your label within a very short period of time. Within 48 hours of each other. Yeah. This thing that you'd been dreaming about looked like it was gone. Oh, yeah. When you feel like you get buried 6 feet under by the industry that controls everything, you're like, I have no shot. In any way, did you find it liberating in the sense that-- Now, I do.

You do? For sure. For sure. Now, I'm like, it was a blessing in disguise. It made me stronger.

Yeah. It made me tougher. And I really try to communicate that to my younger fans of, I know it might feel hard sometimes with things that you're going through, especially in your teenage years, but chances are a lot of the things that you're going through will shape you as a person, and you'll be thankful that you went through them. And I wouldn't change a thing. People ask me all the time, if you can go back and change something, would you do it? I wouldn't, because I'm proud of the person that I am today. And I think every single thing that I went through and experienced, good, bad, whatever, has led me here, and I feel like I'm in a good place, so. Yeah. Because there can be in a moment like that can-- there's this question that can pop into your head, which is, all right, how badly do I want this? Right. What's it worth?

Yeah. And it was hard. It took me it took me a long time to get over the whole thing, but I wanted to keep going. I did. And you did. And I did. I'm glad I did. And I'm very proud of that younger girl, because I can't believe how my perseverance is inspiring to me now. I think that's really special. And I'm very proud of that younger girl. Yeah. I can imagine what it's like for you to see a 15-year-old and a-- Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Or how about when a 12-year-old comes up and they're like, I'm 12, and I'm like, that's how old when I was signed?

Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. Why are you even here? Love you, but--

Yeah. --what? It's trippy. You don't realize it when you're so young. You don't realize how young you are, obviously. No. When I meet these kids that are 12, 13, 14, 15, I'm like, oh, my goodness, I want to hold you. I don't-- like I can't believe that I was on the internet even.

Yeah. Disturbing. You describe yourself as being a very emotional person. Yeah. More a sensitive person is the word that I would use.

Yeah, both. I'm emotional, sensitive. I'm all the things.

Yeah. I think that that's something that I've now felt is really a strength of mine and not something that I dislike. And I used to really beat myself up, or like I said earlier, I was like, why do I care so much? And these other people don't care what people think about them, and these other people don't get affected by the hate I do. They probably do. We just-- Exactly. But I'm also like, I love that I care. I love that I want to be seen for who I am. And like, to me, that's a good quality. It's not something that I want to feel shamed for or feel like I have to change about myself. Like, I love my sensitive heart. I think it's a beautiful thing. And I think that throughout all of this, and when I talk about my journey from 12 to 26, almost 27 now, I really need to just emphasize my fans and my community. And there are some people that have literally been around me since 2012, and--

Yeah. --I just don't know where I would be without them. And they have carried me through all of this, and they've been so supportive, and they've kept everything going for me and just, yeah, they're just really, really amazing. And like, it's not something that I overlook, and I just have to always make sure that I really make it clear. I'm so proud of myself.

Yeah. I got here. I fought really hard. I persevered through a lot of stuff that I don't know that I even should have, but these people that didn't need to support me, they did. And they mean the world to me. One of the things that touched me in the book was when you wrote that you realized that there were people out there who loved you more than you loved yourself. For sure. I think for a long time that was very true for me. I think I had a really fractured relationship with myself. Really, really bad sense of self, bad relationship, very insecure. I still deal with a lot of that to this day, but they help me a lot. And the way they see me has made it a lot easier on the way. We were talking before we started rolling about how you really liked sort of living in quiet places. Yeah. How do you cope with this life that you lead? It's hard. It's definitely a juxtaposition of what I feel like my heart wants and then what my career and my life needs.

Yeah. I think that, as I said to you off camera, I think that I get excited for the day that I can disappear. And I know that some of my fans will hear that and wince, but--

Yeah. And it's not happening right now. Obviously, I'm so excited about this album. I'm so excited about this tour and all that stuff. So it sounds kind of funny saying it now. But I do know that in my heart, I want to have no one have any idea where I'm at for a while. I don't know when that'll be, but I do think there's going to be a part in my life that isn't the lights, the cameras, the stage, this or that. I think there's going to be a chunk where I'm not going to be public facing at all. Just go off the grid.

I would like to. Fully self-sustaining farm, the whole thing. That's my dream.

Is it? Yes. What's on the farm? Oh, goodness. Don't get me started on this, because we'll be here for a long time. Literally, everything you can think of.

Yeah. Everything. I need some sort of underground situation, as well. I've got a whole idea. Underground? Something. Something. I need something that feels like we're in a movie, where I can click a button and something happens. Don't know, but it just sounds nice. I just don't know. I think about myself having a family one day. I think about myself just devoting my time to--

Yeah. --taking care of animals and plants and vegetables. That just sounds really nice. And I already love doing that on a very small scale.

Yeah. Not children, yet, but very on a very small scale. I've got my two cats, my dog, got some vegetable gardens in my house, things like that. And they make me feel good. Don't know. It's very calming, very peaceful to me. Yeah. I think there will come a point where that's what I'm valuing the most in my life.

Yeah. Who knows when that'll be? Yeah. I mean, part of it was out of necessity, but also part of it was a sense of, I think, taking control of everything. You became very hands-on. Yes. Sometimes, too hands on, I think, but yes. But if you know what you want?

I know, but I'm at this point where I'm, like, approving what cupcakes for an album release party look like, where there are certain things, I think, it's important.

Yeah. But when I'm also across every single thing, there are certain details that it just sometimes feels like I maybe overextend myself like, a tiny bit. But it's all fun. I mean, like you said, I mean, it's all within my control. Like, I choose to do these things. But yeah, it's really cool. I kind of started being super involved again in the last probably five years. And, I am behind the camera while I'm in front of the camera with my music videos. I co-direct all of them. I'm editing them with my editor. Like, I'm across everything, which it's really, really fulfilling to me. I love all of the behind-the-scenes stuff. I also just, to me, it's like I said, if I'm going to disappear at one point, I would like to give it my all right now. This is my time to be giving it my all know. So the show that people come to, every single thing you see, I will have had a hand in. I'm sitting with the lighting programmer, which is not some crazy thing. I really enjoy being a part of every single thing.

Yeah. I also find it also to be very fascinating and really cool.

Yeah. I'm quite curious. And so I always enjoy seeing how these bells and whistles go off. And I'm like, how are certain things done? Like, what is the magic behind the curtain? So I think that's also a lot of it is I just-- maybe it's me being nosy. I'm like, I just want to see how everything's done. Be a part of it all. It's all part of the creative process in its own way. Yeah, totally. And I think that I'm someone who I feel like my fans really know me very well. And even little things on my album, you'll hear an Adventure Timesample. You'll hear a Severancesample. These are TV shows they know that I love and I'm obsessed with. And having little personal things like that is what really makes it clear that this is all me. You're getting 100% of me. I'm sure on tour, there's going to be some random, niche, little references that they love. On my last tour, I had a Fortnitething on my screen, and they loved it because they know that I play the video game. So just little things like that, where I feel it really makes it feel, again, like a personal, like, community that we all-- it's almost like we're all in on this inside joke. Yes. Yeah. Versus sometimes when it doesn't feel personal, I feel like it feels-- yeah, it doesn't feel as concise. And I like when it feels like that. In the process of climbing back, was there something you were reaching for? I just wanted to feel fulfilled, probably. And I didn't know what that looked like. Probably on the journey, climbing back, I think, at times, I probably was like, is that charting? Is that selling out shows? What is fulfillment to me, as I still was figuring out who I was. What is success? Yeah.

Exactly. And I think now, I really define success as being able to love my album, love my tour, be happy with everything regardless of the outcome, because that's out of my control. I can't decide how successful a project is. I can't decide what songs people gravitate towards. And--

Yeah. --having that inner peace is, to me, the true indicator of success and being able to say, I'm good no matter what this does. I enjoy this album. I love my fans.

Right. I'm proud of myself no matter what. That, to me, is now where I'm like, I will feel truly successful if I can really feel that way. Yeah. Love yourself, too. Yeah, without needing other people to. Was there a point when you realized all that, do you think? I don't think it just happened one day. I think it was over time. Just, spending a lot of time alone, I think, being very reflective, thinking about everything that I've gone through throughout my career or my personal life, whatever. And I think I'm just now in a place where I know what matters to me. And I think what really matters to me the most is a lot of therapy, honestly. I was asked a lot of very intense, deep thinking questions when I was in therapy, and a lot of them were like, well, what is fulfilling to you? What is going to make you happy then today, truly-- if it's one word, if it's one thing? And I always would say peace. That's all I would always say.

Yeah. And I think that really is just an indicator of I just want to be happy and feel peaceful regardless of what the outcomes are, about what people online are saying.

Yeah. I just want to feel calmness, stillness, peacefulness. And then there's the question of how do you get to peace? Exactly.

Yeah. I wish I had the answer. I'll let you know when I get there. Yeah. It's like success can be defined. Peace is more complicated, especially in this world right now. Oh, my goodness. But, making music has got to still be thrilling. Oh, it is. It's amazing. And that's the thing. I think is even though I don't do this for any of the external reasons, it still is the best feeling ever when I make a song, and like people are going to love this. It's so awesome. There's nothing better. And I think it connects me back to my inner child and things that I thought when I was younger, and the way music would make me feel when I first was discovering it. When my own music makes me feel that way, that's the coolest feeling in the world. Well, that whole idea of something coming out of nothing is still-- Yeah. --it's just magic. To me, it's the coolest thing. And I feel very lucky that I am able to make a career out of something so magical and cool. In this whole process of conceiving a song, recording a song, performing a song, is there a particular part of it that is the most satisfying, thrilling for you? Performing, for sure.

Performing. For sure.

Yeah. Nothing is better. I mean, there's been songs-- like I remember with my last tour, there was a couple songs on my album that just didn't stream very well, that had the lowest streams out of all the songs. And I was like, do I put them on the set list? Will anyone even know them? And--

Yeah. --it was so cool to perform these songs that I thought no one would even know, and these kids, they're screaming every single word. They knew every song. That was so cool to me because I was like, oh, that doesn't matter. Like, even if it's not a song that's comparable to the singles and it doesn't have even a quarter of the streams, this community that I keep going back to, they know it. And those are the people that I'm performing for. That has helped me in endless ways in healing and all that stuff. It's like, social media, whatever, all the noise can be very, very quickly tuned down when you're on a stage for people who bought a ticket, who picked out an outfit, who made plans, who called an Uber, who got to the venue, who waited in line. Yeah. That matters a lot more to me than a comment that I see on social media. And touring is just a very, very healing, fulfilling thing. And to share those intimate moments with them, to look them in the eyes, to know what they look like, to share these memories, it's just, it's the coolest thing. So the performing is, for sure, the best part. There was a phrase you used in the book-- and I hate to keep going back to the book, which know came out three years ago. No. No, I love-- I'm very proud of the book. I'm so honored you read it. You use the phrase, that you tell people that obviously you encountered in the middle of all this-- and I was really impressed by it because I was like, all right, I'm writing this down because the phrase, "your anxiety is lying to you." Yeah. It's one of the things I was so impressed with in the book is how much process you put into sorting through all this. Yes. It feels like you did a hell of a lot of work. Thank you. I appreciate that. I mean, I think that sometimes I feel a little guilty when someone says to me like, something about the book or whatever because I'm like, well, I still struggle with that to this day. It's not something that's over. And I think that's a message that I want to be clear on is like, I am aware my anxiety lies to me and builds things up and makes things a huge deal. But I still fall subject to it sometimes. And sometimes, I just always want to make sure that I'm communicating. Just because you're reading it here, does not mean that this is some-- I don't deal with this anymore. I performed on Jimmy Fallon last night, and I will be so honest with you. I went to bed upset because I literally thought that I did horrible. I thought that-- I just worked myself up, and I just was nitpicking it and being so overly critical. And that's another example of, I think my anxiety is lying to me, and I think I'm way too hard on myself.

Yeah. But that is something that I still deal with and I still struggle with to this day. I mean, I'll go into a room or whatever, it's just-- and I'll work something up, that I'm like, oh, this is going to happen. And it doesn't happen. But yeah, it's definitely something that when I wrote that, I think I had sort of just stumbled upon that idea of I don't think that this is real, and I think that my brain is playing tricks on me sometimes, and also being aware of all the things that have led me to that and have made me think these ways. And again, not blaming myself for it. It's like, well, yeah, of course, I'm gonna doubt every single thing I do when it feels sometimes like every single thing I do is picked apart under a microscope. And if it's not absolutely perfect, it's deemed bad. So I try to give myself grace, also. When I sometimes, unfortunately, let my anxiety spiral out of control, I'm like, well, who could blame you? And so I try not to be too tough on myself with that. It's interesting you went to bed thinking that because like I said, your face, at the end of it, it looked like you were really happy. And that's the thing is I will be really happy about something. I'll enjoy a show. I'll enjoy a performance. I'll think it went great. But then when my gears start turning, I'm like, well, you did this one thing, and this was could have been better. And like--

Yeah. --I just nitpick it. But I do that in the same way people online do it to me. And I think it's just been ingrained for so long, and I'm really trying to undo that. Like, I still struggle with all these things to this day. And I think that's the thing is healing is a process. It's not something that just one day you're going to wake up and feel like, oh, I'm all good. So, it's an important message I like for people to remember.