Extended interview: James Gunn on "Superman"

You were picked to do this movie, James, and to build this DC Universe. The movie's out. It's not even a week. How do you feel about it? Relief, you know? The business of movies is a strange one because what you're doing is, you're committing years of your life to a project like this. So for the past three years, I've worked on Superman. Most of my time has been spent working on Superman. And then the movie is released. And you're like, is the public going to like it? Are the critics going to like it? And is it going to make money? And fortunately, with this one, it went well on all three of those fronts. Yeah. But I've had ones that have done well on one or none, and it's not as fun. My first reaction to coming out of this movie was, I absolutely love it. But then I thought, my wife, I'm going to bring her to see this film. And she's going to watch it. And she's going to say afterwards, well, who was that? And what was that character up to? And what is their superpower? For those of us who are fans, for those of us who are not even just super fans, but just fans who love Superman--but there's a normie crowd out there, that wants to be entertained, and likes superhero movies, but doesn't know all these different characters. What was the thought process there? Well, when I started reading comics when I was a kid, and fell in love with comic books, I didn't open up ActionComicsnumber 1, and see Superman arriving in a spaceship, to land in the midst a regular world, surrounded by other human beings. I opened a comic book to see Superman, who had his Superfriends, and his flying dog and giant robots and monsters and kaiju and sorcery and magic so extreme that it seemed like sorcery. It was that magical world that I fell in love with, as much as the character of Superman. That's what the DC Universe world is. When you see Game ofThrones, you go into Game of Thrones, and you see there's all these things that you're not familiar with. But you're taken up by the story and the characters. And you fall in love with it. When you go to see StarWars, nobody knew what Jedis were. Nobody knew what Ewoks were. Nobody knew what Jawas were. And so they go into the thing, and you're in another world. That's what this is. And now, we have not found that there's been much of an issue with anybody, with going in and seeing the fact that Superman has these supporting characters, who are also superheroes. I mean, it's gotten up, high '80s on Rotten Tomatoes. Is there a sense from you that people are falling in love with the story and the character who's almost being reintroduced? Yes I mean, I think they're falling in love with David as Superman, who I think is as good of a Superman as anyone. And I think that they're falling in love with Rachel Brosnahan as Lois, their relationship, and then also, strangely, sort of hate falling in love with Nick Hoult as Lex Luthor, and the negative chemistry between him and David. So I think they like all three of those characters so much. They're really enjoying the film. But what I think is really speaking to people is, it's a movie about kindness. It's a movie about the man side of Superman. There's been a lot of Supermanstories that have focused on the Super. This one focuses on the man. And I think people really like that a lot. What is this? Crypto!

You are depicting Superman as more human. He's still this all-powerful being, but the first image that we see of him is him, bloodied in the snow. He's gotten his butt kicked. Somebody said to me, I didn't like Supermanuntil this movie because I don't like the idea of somebody being so powerful that they never get their ass kicked. Yes, I understand that point of view. Now, there are some writers in the comics, like Grant Morrison, who took the idea of the all-powerful Superman. And told great stories with it. But for me, yes, as a child, the reason I like Batmanbetterthan Supermanwas because Superman was just too strong, at times. And as a child in the '70s, Superman's powers have ebbed and waned over the years. So he started out in 1938 as pretty much just a strong guy. Bullets bounced off him. He could jump pretty high, but he wasn't the Superman we know and love. The radio serial came along, and suddenly, he could shoot beams out of his eyes and fly. And then all of a sudden, he got stronger and stronger until his peak of his powers, when he's punching planets in half, and then the 1978 movie, making time go backwards by twisting the world around. And then he was brought back down to Earth a little bit with John Byrne in the '80s. And he's always had that sort of ebb and flow of, how powerful is he? And I think we're building a whole universe of characters. And I didn't want to have one guy who was so much stronger than anybody else, that a guy with a bow and arrow didn't matter. Is that just from when you think about writing and characters, going back to the Man of a Thousand Faces? The idea of having a weakness, an Achilles heel, is interesting, and somebody who is invulnerable is boring. Well, we've always had Kryptonite. Yeah, that too. Yeah, Kryptonite and magic. Those are the two things that can affect Superman. But in the comics, he's faced doomsday, and characters who were of equal and opposing force, and has had his ass whooped. So it's happened. But I thought it was important to show him at a different angle than we've seen him, previously in films.

The other thing that I think is really interesting is your decision to show Superman as less conflicted and angsty, as we've seen him in previous incarnations. The film doesn't shy away from showing Superman as an active protector of life, ranging from a squirrel to a woman who is trapped on a bridge. He is a protector of all life. Yes. Yeah, I mean, I think it's important that Superman is always there to protect anyone who is in need. And that's how he looks at his life. His struggle in the film is internal in many ways, because it does have to do with how he views himself. He thinks of himself in a certain way for a certain reason, comes to discover some information about himself, in the movie, that takes him totally on his back foot, and then has to recontextualize who he is, in the film. So having a personal Superman story while simultaneously having giant monsters and robots and all that stuff is part of, I think, another thing that people are attracted to, and why they like the movie so much. There's been a lot made about the scene between Lois and Clark, where she's interviewing him and talking to him about his actions as Superman. But there's another scene between the two characters that I especially appreciate. And in my mind, I thought, when you think of Superman, the DC Comics hero, he's the first superhero, so he's this establishment character. But we live in a world where cynicism rules. The modern world that we live in today, in 2025, cynicism rules. And this conversation between Lois and Clark, where he talks about what punk rock really means to him, you redefine what punk rock is. You redefine what rebellion is. For Superman, he suggests the most punk rock thing you can do is simply be a good person and stand up for the little guy. Yeah, kindness is punk rock. Yeah, I think that unfortunately, Superman, sometimes is thought of as old fashioned or Pollyanna or too earnest. And I'm like, OK, yeah, he is those things. He is too earnest. And I wish that we had more of that in this world today. And I think that his earnestness is what is rebellious about him. That is edgier than other versions of these characters, where they're trying to be edgy. He isn't trying to be edgy. And that is, in itself edgy. That's the paradox. And when Lois says, you think everyone is beautiful, that sort of gives me her worldview, which is, she is a little bit cynical. She is, a little bit. So this guy just flew into Midtown and started attacking people, demanding for Superman to show up? Yeah. It's all there, in my article. Well, I'd actually have to make it through your writing, Clark. Yeah, I think that you see that with Lois and Clark, that she's more cynical than he is, but she's less idealistic. Superman isn't without flaws. He's a little too idealistic. He's a little stubborn. But he really believes in human beings. And he believes in goodness. And he believes in helping other people no matter what. And that's where Lois is a little bit more utilitarian in her beliefs. And so that's the conflict in their relationship, which is another key part of the story. It's about this conflict in their relationship and the different ways they look at the world. But it's also about where, in their relationship, this is. We've normally seen Lois and Clark when they first meet each other and start to fall in love. Or we see them, like in the great TV show, Superman &Lois, after they've been married. This is about a moment in which they've been dating for three months. And she's a realistic, smart person. And she's like, this is great. This guy's hot. I'm attracted to him. He's really nice to me. But man, I don't know about this weirdness of dating an alien from outer space, who flies around in a costume and helps save squirrels. And for her, that's a difficult thing. You can see, if this was real, how would Lois process this relationship with this guy? And everything, for me, in this whole movie, is about saying, OK, this is an outlandish premise. There's Superman, he wears a cape, has his underwear on the outside, flies around, wears a costume, helps people. There's aliens, there's monsters, there's other superheroes, all this stuff. But what if it was real? What if these people were real? What would they really be like? What would their relationship be like? What would their conflicts be like? What would his relationship to the US government be like? How would these things really manifest if we gave these characters as much depth as we can in a two-hour film? Well, that was highlighted for me, as a journalist, when I watched that other scene, which is when she interviews Clark, as Superman. And I asked Rachel this because I thought it was fascinating that she's in love with this man. And yet, when she sits down to do her job, she holds his feet to the fire, even though she loves him and loves everything that he represents. Yeah. Can you break that down for me as what you were trying to say about journalism in that moment? I think that Lois is a journalist to her core. And what's her key value? Its truth. What's Superman's key value? It's life. Those are two really important things, but they don't always go together so well. And the minute she sits down and the minute she's questioning him, she puts on her journalist hat, and she treats him like she would anyone else. Rachel and I talked. Lois is the kind of reporter that she's gotten kicked out of-- she probably is not the one you want to see at the White House because she is just aggressive with her questioning. And I wouldn't say too aggressive, she's the way that all journalists should be if the world allowed them to be what they should be. But she takes her profession really seriously. And she doesn't balk at questioning somebody who she cares about. But then on the flip side, Clark, as Superman-- and I was trying to reconcile this myself. I was like, well, wait, he's Superman. And if he can stop a war, if he can stop innocent people from being slaughtered, who cares what your laws are? Who cares what the president has authorized or the UN is doing? I don't have time to debate this, in session, while people are dying. And even for me, I was like, ooh, I'm a journalist. But what if I were Superman? I would say, I don't really have time to-- I found that when I wrote the scene, I didn't think Superman or Lois was right in there, back and forth. I see both their points of view. But I do notice that people generally think Superman is the correct one in that argument. It's the more emotional side. And so when we're watching a movie, we are keyed into our emotional side. And so we agree with Superman because he's like, I'm just going to go. And I don't think Superman even thinks about it. That's the thing. He's going, and he's stopping a war from happening because people are about to die. And one country's invading another, and he's not going to let it happen. And so he goes, and he stops the war. He doesn't even think about, oh, should I check in with the president? Should I ask somebody else? He's a little rash in that way. And that's how he lives his life. He's so fast. He's so quick. And he's used to, the buildings falling down, he's got to stop it, and save the people. And that's how he treated the war. He went straight over there and stopped it. And then she brings up all ramifications of that action. And maybe, she says, maybe he actually caused more harm to life than helped, because maybe the war would have been over in two seconds. It would have been done. They're both countries. They're not democracies. So yeah, so I think that I see her point of view, too. At the end of the day, I probably do agree with Superman. [LAUGHTER] Well, what's interesting, too about that, then is, as you know from The DarkKnight,returns, Batman's problems with Superman have always been that he is seemingly a tool of the establishment, of the US government. And in this way-- and I don't know what you're planning for Batman-- but it does seem that he's more closely aligned to Batman's values. In that he doesn't have time to wait. Yeah, it is. Yes, I think that in the comics, usually, Superman and Batman, they have different ways of going about things, but they're best friends. And I think that's something that in the future, the DCU, we think a lot about. Let's talk about Nick as Lex Luthor. He's amazing. And it's hard for me to see. One of my favorite movies is About aBoy. And every time I see him in anything, when he's playing an adult, especially like this horrible villain, my brain is exploding at all levels. But you created a world which is dominated by techno dudes, techno bros, as personified by Lex Luthor. And you also show how social media can influence world events. You've got these chaos monkeys, typing on computers. Why was that important for you, to show Lex as an avatar of some of the people that are running around our planet right now? Well, I think what was important for me is that Lex Luthor is incredibly dangerous. And I think that in the past, I haven't been particularly scared of Lex Luthor. I wanted a Lex Luthor who I'm like, Superman's got his work cut out for him, and he really does. Lex has planned this all out. He wants to kill Superman, kill Superman, really kill him. And I think he's figured out some good ways to do it. I understand his point of view. Lex Luthor is the smartest man in the world. He's done great things for humanity. He's a scientist, and was probably considered the greatest man in the world until about three years ago, when this guy flies in, with dimples and a cape, and suddenly, everybody thinks he's the greatest man in the world. And Lex just cannot deal with it. It just kills him. His ambition was everything. And so it's gone. It's been destroyed by this guy. And so he's rationalized his own way into believing that he is put here on Earth to destroy Superman. I do find that this depiction of Lex Luthor is the scariest Lex Luthor I've ever seen because although we all love the Gene Hackman and all the other versions that we've seen. Well, the comics, it gets pretty dark. It does. Yeah, but on screen, I think a lot of people took notes from Hackman, and made him like he's an evil, brilliant genius, but also funny, like your uncle, who's got a lot of money. But here, he's really scary. Yeah. I think Michael Rosenbaum in Smallville, his Lex was pretty great, and also human. And we start out liking him. And the great thing about that TV show is that we saw the tragedy in every moment of these characters, who were friends, who were not going to be that way in the future. In this movie, Lex and Superman are meeting for the very first time. But I do think that you got to make Lex scary. He's got to be fully himself. But also, you have to understand him. I think you have to understand his hatred of Superman. And that's what Nick gets across so beautifully, who, incidentally, is the nicest person on the set. And my wife and I were talking the other night, and we were trying to figure out, why is it, so often, that the nicest people play the best villains? Because the two nicest people on the whole set of Superman are Gabby, who plays the engineer, and Nick, who plays Lex. And I think it's just because they have so much goodness in them, they can afford to be evil on screen, whereas a bad person, it brings down being evil 24 hours a day.

I love it. As myself, being a child of immigrants, there's a moment in this film that I really appreciate, which is this understanding, which I've known since I first picked up a Supermancomic, that Superman is an immigrant from another planet, or a refugee, if that's how you want to turn it. And he's standing up against the interest of billionaires and people who would seek to harm those of us who are not billionaires. How important was it for you to incorporate that into this story, which is part of the Supermanmythos? Well, for me, again, for me, the center of it was about kindness in a world that isn't kind. There's no doubt that this story was created by the children of immigrants--

By Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster, yeah. --in 1938. But for me, the important thing was to propagate kindness, that it's something that when I was a kid, it would have been just something we would have seen all the time in movies and TV. And I realized that it's just disappeared little by little, the importance of being kind, that little kids can go to see this movie, and see a character who is powerful but kind, that adults can go and be reminded, wow, that should be something basic and normal. But now I'm looking at it in this movie, and I realize how rare it is. Even superheroes, they're all edgy and dark and brooding and cutting people up and anti-heroes. And I like that stuff, I'm not saying I don't. Deadpool'smy favorite franchise. But there's other ways to approach these things. And we're missing some of the basic human values that we all share. And even, there's a moment where Superman shows compassion for Lex, despite everything. And how much better would the world be if we showed compassion to the people that we disagree with? And what has the internet created in us that it's making us fight people all the time? And I mean this about everybody. We all have different political beliefs, but everybody comes from their own places. And most of us are good. Most of us are good, in all political spectrums. Maybe they're wrong, but we're good. And so how do we communicate with each other and show kindness to each other, no matter what our beliefs are? If Superman can show Lex Luthor kindness, the guy who wants nothing more than to kill him, why can't we do it to a neighbor, who has a different set of political beliefs than we do? Love it. I got to ask about Batman. We just talked a little bit about it. As you plan ahead, you've got Supergirl, got Clayfacecoming up. We will see Batman in the Brave and theBold? But might we see him earlier? And what kind of costume will Batman wear? Will we bring back the black and the gray? Listen, I have no idea what Batman's going to wear. Listen, what I know for sure is what is right in front of us. Peacemakerseason 2 comes out in a month. That's directly connected to the events of Superman. Some of the characters in Superman are now regulars in peacemaker. Then we go into Supergirl and Lanternsnext summer. You're going to have all three Green Lanterns, Hal Jordan, John Stewart, and Guy Gardner. And Guy Gardner. That's right. And it's basically John Stewart's story in a lot of ways, but it's with those other characters. And then we got Clayface,we're making, which is a totally different thing. Although it's in the same universe, it's a complete horror film. And that's one of the things that we want to do is, there's not a company style. It's not like every movie is going to be like Superman. The artist and the directors and the writers that create each one will bring their own sense to it, just like I'm looking at all your comics over here-- Thanks, man. --and look at how tonally different, look how different Superman looks in those things. Look how tonally different the stories are, the way they look. And so that's what we want to bring to the films, because we don't want people being bored. We want to invigorate people. I'm glad you pointed out these action figures. And we talked earlier about the Mego action figures, which you seemingly had a lot more than I did. Oh, yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm a Mego super fan, yeah. Thank you for doing this. This is awesome. Oh, thanks, man, I appreciate it. That was great.