Text Of Clinton Testimony (9)
This is part nine of President Clinton's grand jury testimony.
OIC ATTORNEY: If all of these people -- let's leave out Mrs. Currie for a minute. Vernon Jordan, Sid Blumenthal, John Podesta, Harold Ickes, Erskine Bowles, Harry Thomason - after the story broke, after Judge Starr's involvement was known on January 21st, it said that you denied a sexual relationship with them? Are you denying that?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No. I'm just telling...
OIC ATTORNEY: When you told us that you...
PRESIDENT CLINTON: ... you what I meant by it. I told you what I meant by it when we (inaudible) started this deposition.
OIC ATTORNEY: You told us now that you were being careful, but that it might have been misleading, is that correct?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: It might have been. Since we have seen this four-year, $40 million investigation come down to parsing the definition of sex, I think it might have been. I don't think at the time that I thought that's what this was going to be about. In fact, if you looked at the headlines at the time -- even you mentioned that Post story. All the headlines were -- and all the talking -- the people who talked about this, including a lot that had been quite sympathetic to your operation, said, well, this is not really a story about sex or this is a story about subordination of perjury and these talking points and all this other stuff.
So I -- what I was trying to do was to give them something they could -- that would be true, even if misleading, in the context of this deposition, and keep them out of trouble, and let's deal -- and deal with the -- what I thought was the almost ludicrous suggestion that I had urged someone to lie or tried to suborn perjury in other ways.
OIC ATTORNEY: I want to go over some questions again. I don't think you're going to answer them (OFF-MIKE), and so I don't need a lengthy response, just a yes or a no. And I understand the basis upon which you are not answering them, but I need to ask them for the record. If Monica Lewinsky says that while you were in the Oval Office area you touched her breasts, would she be lying?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Let me say something about all this.
OIC ATTORNEY: All I really need for you, Mr. President...
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I know. But...
OIC ATTORNEY: I want (inaudible) an (inaudible) answer under the previous grounds or to answer the question, you see, because we only have four hours and your answers have been extremely lengthy.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I know -- well it's -- I know that. I'll give you four hours and 30 seconds, if you'll let me say something general about this. I will answer to your satisfaction that I won't -- based on my statement I will not answer. I would like 30 seconds at the end to make a statemnt. And you can have 30 seconds on your time, if you'll let me say this to the grand jury and to you. And I don't think it's disrespectful at all. I've had a lot of time to think about this. But go ahead and ask your questions.
OIC ATTORNEY: The question is, if Monica Lewinsky says that while you were in the Oval Office area, you touched her breast, would she be lying?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: That is not my recollection. My recollection is that I did not have sexual relations with Ms. Lewinsky. And I'm staying on my former statement about that.
OIC ATTORNEY: If she said...
PRESIDENT CLINTON: My statement is that I did not have sexual relations as defined by that.
OIC ATTORNEY: If she says that you kissed her breast, would she be lying?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I'm going to revert to my former statement.
OIC ATTORNEY: OK. If Monica Lewinsky says that, while you were in the Oval Office area you touched her genitalia, would she be lying? That calls for a yes, no, or reverting to your former statement.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I will revert to my statement on that.
OIC ATTORNEY: If Monica Lewinsky says that you used a cigar as a sexual aid with her in the Oval Office area, would she be lying? Yes, no, or won't answer?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I will revert to my former statement.
OIC ATTORNEY: If Monica Lewinsky says that you had phone sex with her, would she be lying?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, that is -- at least, in general terms, I think, is covered by my statement. I addressed that in my statement. And I don't believe it's...
OIC ATTORNEY: Let me define phone sex for purposes of my question. Phone sex occurs when the party to the phone conversation masturbates while the other party is talking in a sexually explicit manner. The question is, if Monica Lewinsky says that you had phone sex with her, would she be lying?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I think that is covered by my statement.
OIC ATTORNEY: Did you on or about January 13, 1998, Mr. President, ask Erskine Bowles to ask John Hilley if he would give a recommendation for Monica Lewinsky?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: In 1998?
OIC ATTORNEY: Yes. On or about January 13, 1998, did you ask Erskine Bowles, your chief of staff, if he would ask John Hilley to give a recommendation for Monica Lewinsky?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: At some point, sir, I believe I talked to Erskine Bowles about whether Monica Lewinsky could get a recommendation that was not negative from the Legislative Affairs Office. I believe I did.
OIC ATTORNEY: I just didn't hear the very last part.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I think the answer is -- I think -- yes, at some point I talked to Erskine Bowles about this. I do not know what the date was. At some point, I did talk to him.
OIC ATTORNEY: And if Erskine Bowles has said, has told us that he told John Podesta to carry out your wishes, and John Podesta states that it was three or four days before your deposition, which would be the 13th or the 14th, are you in a position to deny that?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: The 13th or 14th of...
OIC ATTORNEY: January, as to date?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't know. I don't know when the date was.
OIC ATTORNEY: OK.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I'm not in a position to deny it. I won't deny it. I'm sure that they're both truthful men. I don't know when the date was.
OIC ATTORNEY: Do you recall asking Erskine Bowles to...
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I recall talking to Erskine Bowles about that. And my recollection is, sir, that Ms. Lewinsky was moving to New York, wanted to get a job in the private sector, was confident she would get a good recommendation from the Defense Department and was concerned that, because she had been moved from the Legislative Affairs Office, transferred to the Defense Department, that her ability to get a job might be undermined by a bad recommendation from the Legislative Affairs Office. So I asked Erskine if we could get her a recommendation that just was at least neutral so that, if she had a good recommendation from the Defense Department, it wouldn't prevent her from getting a job in the private sector.
OIC ATTORNEY: If Mr. Bowles has told us that, in fact, you told him that she already had a job, and had already listed Mr. Hilley as a reference, and wanted him to be available as a recommendation, would you be -- is that inconsistent with your memory?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: A little bit. But I think -- my memory is that when you're -- when you get a job like that, you have to give them a resume which says where you've worked and who your supervisor was. And I think that that's my recollection. My recollection is that -- slightly different from that.
OIC ATTORNEY: And who was it that asked you to do that on Monica Lewinsky's behalf?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I think she did. You know, she tried for months and months to get a job back in the White House, not so much in the West Wing, but somewhere in the White House complex, including the Old Executive Office Building. And she talked to Marsha Scott, among others. She very much wanted to come back. And she interviewed for some jobs but never got one. And she was, from time to time, upset about it. And I think what she was afraid of is that she couldn't get a -- from the minute she left the White House she was worried about this, that she would -- that if she didn't come back to the White House and work for a while and get a good job recommendation, that no matter how well she had done at the Pentagon, it might hurt her future employment prospects.
Well, it became obvious that, you know, her mother had movd to New York. She wanted to go to New York. She wasn't going to get a job in the White House. So she wanted to get a job in the private sector, and she said that, "I hope that I won't get a letter out of the Legislative Affairs Office that will prevent my getting a job in the private sector." And that's what I talked to Erskine about. Now, that's my entire memory of this.
OIC ATTORNEY: All right. I want to go back briefly to the December 28th conversation with Ms. Lewinsky. I believe you testified to the effect that she asked you -- "What if they ask me about gifts she gave me?" My question to you is, after that statement by her, did you ever have a conversation with Betty Currie about gifts or picking something up for Monica Lewinsky?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't believe I did, sir. No.
OIC ATTORNEY: You never told her anything to this effect -- that Monica has something to give you? That is to say, Betty Currie?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, sir, I didn't. I don't have any memory of that whatever.
OIC ATTORNEY: And so you have no knowledge that -- or you had no knowledge at the time that Betty Currie went and picked up -- your secretary went and picked up from Monica Lewinsky -- items that were called for by the Jones subpoena and hid them under her bed? You had no knowledge that anything remotely like that was going to happen?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I did not. I did not know she had those items, I believe, until that was made public.
OIC ATTORNEY: And you agree with me that that would be a very wrong thing to do, to hide evidence in a civil case or any case? Isn't that true?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Yes. I don't know that Miss Currie knew that that's what she had at all. But...
OIC ATTORNEY: I'm not saying she did. I'm just saying...
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I had -- it is -- if Monica Lewinsky did that after they had been subpoenaed, and she knew what she was doing, she should not have done that. And I...
OIC ATTORNEY: And if you...
PRESIDENT CLINTON: And indeed, I myself told her, if they ask you for gifts, you have to give them what you have. And I don't understand if, in fact, she was worried about this why she was so worried about it. It was no big deal.
OIC ATTORNEY: I want to talk about a December 17th phone conversation you had with Monica Lewinsky at approximately 2 a.m. Do you recall making that conversation and telling her initially about the death of Betty's brother, but then telling her that she was on the witness list, and that it broke your heart that she was on the witness list?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No, sir, I don't. But it would -- it -- it would -- it is quite possible that that happened because if you remember earlier in this meeting, you asked me some questions about what I'd said to Monica about testimony and affidavits, and I was strugging to try to remember whether this happened in a meeting or a phone call. Now I remember I called her to tell her Betty's brother had died. I remember that. And I know it was in the middle of December, and I believe it was before Monica had been subpoenaed.
So I think it is quite possible that, if I called her at that time and had not talked to her since the sixth -- and you asked me this earlier -- I believe when I saw her on the sixth, I don't think I knew she was on the witness list then. Then it's quite possible I would say something like that.
I don't have any memory of it, but I certainly wouldn't dispute that I might have said that.
OIC ATTORNEY: And in that conversation, or in any conversation in which you informed her she was on the witness list, did you tell her, you know, you can always say that you were coming to see Betty or bringing me letters? Did you tell her anything like that?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't remember. She was coming to see Betty. I can tell you this. I absolutely never asked her to lie.
OIC ATTORNEY: Sir, every time she came to see Betty and you were in the Oval Office, she was coming to see you, too, wasn't she, or just about every time?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I think just about every time. I don't think every time. I think there was a time or two where she came to see Betty when she didn't see me.
OIC ATTORNEY: So, do you remember telling her any time, any time when you told her, or after you told her that she was on the witness list, something to this effect: You know, you can always say you were coming to see Betty, or you were bringing me letters?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't remember exactly what I told her that night.
OIC ATTORNEY: Did you --
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't remember that. I remember talking about the nature of our relationship, how she got in. But I also will tell you that I felt quite comfortable that she could have executed a truthful affidavit which would not have disclosed the embarrassing details of the relationship that we had had, which had been over for many, many months by the time this incident occurred.
OIC ATTORNEY: Did you tell her anytime in December something to the effect: You know, you can always say that you were coming to see Betty or you were bringing me letters? Did you say that, or anything like that, in December '97 or January '98, to Monica Lewinsky?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, that's a very broad... I do not recall saying anything like that in connection with her testimony. I could tell you what I do remember saying, if you want to know. But I don't -- we might have talked about what to do in a non legal context at some point in the past, but I have no specific memory of that conversation. I do remember what I said to her about the possible testimony.
OIC ATTORNEY: You would agree with me, if you did say somehing like that to her, to urge her to say that to the Jones people, that would be part of an effort to mislead the Jones people, no matter how evil they are and corrupt?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I didn't say they were evil. I said what they were doing here was wrong, and it was.
OIC ATTORNEY: Wouldn't that be misleading?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, again, you are trying to get me to characterize something that I'm --that I don't know if I said or not, without knowing whether the whole, whether the context is complete or not. So, I would have to know, what was the context, what were all the surrounding facts. I can tell you this: I never asked Ms. Lewinsky to lie. The first time that she raised
with me the possibility that she might be a witness or I told her -- you suggested the possibility in this December 17th timeframe -- I told her she had to get a lawyer. And I never asked her to lie.
OIC ATTORNEY: Did you ever say anything like that, you can always say that you were coming to see Betty or bringing me letters? Was that part of any kind of a, anything you said to her or a cover story, before you had any idea she was going to be part of Paula Jones?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I might well have said that.
OIC ATTORNEY: Okay.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Because I certainly didn't want this to come out, if I could help it. And I was concerned about that. I was embarrassed about it. I knew it was wrong. And, you know, of course, I didn't want it to come out. But --
OIC ATTORNEY: But you are saying that you didn't say anything -- I want to make sure I understand. Did you say anything like that once you knew or thought she might be a witness in the Jones case? Did you repeat that statement, or something like it to her?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, again, I don't recall, and I don't recall whether I might have done something like that, for example, if somebody says, what if the reporters ask me this, that or the other thing. I can tell you this: In the context of whether she could be a witness, I have a recollection that she asked me, well, what do I do if I get called as a witness, and I said, you have
to get a lawyer. And that's all I said. And I never asked her to lie.
OIC ATTORNEY: Did you tell her to tell the truth?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, I think the implication was she would tell the truth. I've already told you that I felt strongly that she could issue, that she could execute an affidavit that would be factually truthful, that might get her out of having to testify. Now, it obviously wouldn't if the Jones people knew this, because they knew that if they could get this and leak it, it would serve their larger purposes, even if the judge ruled that she couldn't be a witness in the case. The judge later ruled she wouldn't be a witness in the case. The judge later ruled the case had no merit. So, I knew tht. And did I hope she'd be able to get out of testifying on an affidavit? Absolutely. Did I want her to execute a false affidavit? No, I did not.
OIC ATTORNEY: If Monica Lewinsky has stated that her affidavit that she didn't have a sexual relationship with you is, in fact, a lie, I take it you disagree with that?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No. I told you before what I thought the issue was there. I think the issue is how do you define sexual relationship. And there was no definition imposed on her at the time she executed the affidavit. Therefore, she was free to give it any reasonable meaning.
OIC ATTORNEY: And if she says she was lying --
PRESIDENT CLINTON: And I believe --
OIC ATTORNEY: Under your common sense ordinary meaning that you talked about earlier, Mr. President, that most Americans would have, if she says sexual relationship, saying I didn't have one was a lie because I had oral sex with the President, I take it, you would disagree with that?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Now, we're back to where we started and I have to invoke my statement. But, let me just say one thing. I've read a lot, and obviously I don't know whether any of it's accurate, about what she said, and what purports to be on those tapes. And this thing -- and I searched my own memory. This reminds me, to some extent, of the hearings when Clarence Thomas and Anita Hill were both testifying under oath. Now, in some rational way, they could not have both been telling the truth, since they had directly different accounts of a shared set of facts. Fortunately, or maybe you think unfortunately, there
was no special prosecutor to try to go after one or the other of them, to take sides and try to prove one was a liar.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: And so, Judge Thomas was able to go on and serve on the Supreme Court. What I learned from that, I can tell you that I was a citizen out there just listening. And when I heard both of them testify, what I believed after it was over, I believed that they both thought they were telling the truth.
This is -- you're dealing with, in some ways, the most mysterious area of human life. I'm doing the best I can to give you honest answers.
OIC ATTORNEY: Mr. President --
PRESIDENT CLINTON: And that's all I can say.
OIC ATTORNEY: I'm sorry.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: And, you know, those people both testified under oath. So, if there'd been a special prosecutor, they could, one of them could have gone after Anita Hill, another could have gone after Clarence Thomas. I thank God there was no such thing then, because I don't believe that it was a proper thing.
OIC ATTORNEY: One of --
PRESIDENT CLINTON: And I think they both thought they were telling the truth. So, maybe Ms. Lewinsky believes she's telling the truth, and I'm glad she got her mother and herself out f trouble. I'm glad you gave her that sweeping immunity. I'm glad for the whole thing. I, I, I - it breaks my heart that she was ever involved in this.
OIC ATTORNEY: I want to go back to a question about Vernon Jordan. I want to go back to late December and early January, late December of '97 and early January of '98. During this time, Mr. President, you are being sued for sexual harassment by a woman who claims, among other things, that others got benefits that she didn't because she didn't have oral sex with you. While this is happening, your powerful friend, Vernon Jordan, is helping to get Monica Lewinsky a job and a lawyer. He's helping to get a job and a lawyer for someone who had some kind of sex with you, and who has been subpoenaed in the very case, the Jones case. Don't you see a problem with this? Didn't you see a problem with this?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: No. Would you like to know why?
OIC ATTORNEY: Isn't that why -- I would. But isn't that why Vernon Jordan asked you on December 19th whether or not you had sexual relationships with Monica Lewinsky and why he asked her, because he knew it would be so highly improper to be helping her with a lawyer and a job if, in fact, she had had a relationship with you?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't know. I don't believe that at all. I don't believe that at all, particularly since, even if you look at the facts here in their light most unfavorable to me, no one has suggested that there was any sexual harassment on my part. And I don't think it was wrong to be helping her. Look --
OIC ATTORNEY: A subpoenaed witness in a case against you?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Absolutely. Look, for one thing, I had already proved in two ways that I was not trying to influence her testimony. I didn't order her to be hired at the White House. I could have done so. I wouldn't do it. She tried for months to get in. She was angry.
Secondly, after I --
OIC ATTORNEY: Wasn't she kept --
PRESIDENT CLINTON: After I terminated the improper contact with her, she wanted to come in more than she did. She got angry when she didn't get in sometimes. I knew that that might make her more likely to speak, and I still did it because I had to limit the contact.
And thirdly, let me say, I formed an opinion really in early 1996, and again -- well, let me finish the sentence. I formed an opinion early in 1996, once I got into this unfortunate and wrong conduct, that when I stopped it, which I knew I'd have to do and which I should have done a long time before I did, that she would talk about it. Not because Monica Lewinsky is a bad person. She's basically a good girl. She's a good young woman with a good heart and a good mind. I think she is burdened by some unfortunate conditions of her, her upbringing. But she's basically a good person.
But I knew that the minute there was no longer any cotact, she would talk about this. She would have to. She couldn't help it. It was, it was a part of her psyche. So, I had put myself at risk, sir. I was not trying to buy her silence or get Vernon Jordan to buy her silence. I thought she was a good person. She had not been involved with me for a long time in any improper way,
several months, and I wanted to help her get on with her life. It's just as simple as that.
MR. WISENBERG: It's time for a break.
MR. KENDALL: OK. 4:49
(Whereupon, the proceedings were recessed from 4:49 p.m. until 5:05 p.m.)
MR. KENDALL: Bob, we are at 2 hours and 55 minutes.
MR. BITTMAN: Two hours and 55 minutes, thank you.
OIC ATTORNEY: Mr. President.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Mr. Bittman.
OIC ATTORNEY: Apparently we have one hour and five minutes left, if we stick to the four-hour time frame.
MR. KENDALL: Plus 30 seconds.
MR. BITTMAN: And 30 seconds, that's right.
THE WITNESS: You gave me my 30 seconds' soliloquy. So, I owe you 30 seconds.
OIC ATTORNEY: You are very generous. That actually segues very nicely into one of the grand juror's asked, pointed out actually, that you indicated at the beginning of the deposition that you would, you would answer all the grand jurors, you wanted to answer all the grand jurors' questions. And they wanted to know whether you would be willing to stay beyond the four-hour period to, in fact, answer all their questions.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Well, let's see how we do in the next hour, and then we'll decide.
OIC ATTORNEY: Okay. Let me draw your attention to early January of this year, after Christmas, before your deposition. Do you remember talking to Betty Currie about Monica, who had just called her and said that she, Monica, needed to talk to you before she signed something?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I'm not sure that I do remember that. But, go ahead.
OIC ATTORNEY: This is in early January. And then Betty Currie relayed this to you that Monica called, it's very important, she needs to talk to you before she signs something. And then you do, indeed, talk to Monica that day on the telephone.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I did talk to her that day?
OIC ATTORNEY: Yes.
MR. KENDALL: Mr. President, excuse me. That's a question. If you have a memory of that, you can answer.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I'm trying to remember when the last time I talked to her was. I'm aware, sir, that she signed this affidavit about this time, sometime in the first week in January. I may have talked to her before she did it. I don't know. I talked to her a number of times between the time Betty's brother died and Christmas. Then I saw her on December 28. I may have talked to her, but I don't remember the specific conversation.
OIC ATORNEY: And you would have talked about the -- she had just given you a gift actually in early January, a book on the Presidents of the United States. And you discussed this with her and she said that you said you liked it a lot.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I did like it a lot. I told you that. My impression, my belief was that she gave me that book for Christmas. Maybe that's not right. I think she had that book delivered to me for Christmas. And then, as I remember, I went to Bosnia and for some reason she wasn't there around Christmas time.
But, anyway, maybe I didn't get it until January. My recollection was that I had gotten it right before Christmas.
OIC ATTORNEY: Let me see if I can jog your memory further. Monica talked to you in that phone conversation that told you that she had just met with her attorney that Mr. Jordan arranged with her, and the attorney said that if she is deposed that they were going to ask her how she got her job at the Pentagon. And Monica then asked you, what do you think I should say, how did I answer that question, how did I get the job at the Pentagon. Did you talk to Monica about that, about possibilities --
PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't believe -- no. I don't remember her asking me that. But if she, if she had asked me that, I would have told her to tell the truth. I -- and I didn't, you know, I don't know exactly how she got her job at the Pentagon. I know Evelyn Lieberman wanted to transfer her out of the job she had, and somebody must have arranged that. But I didn't arrange it.
Continue To Part 10 of President Clinton's testimony.