Face the Nation transcripts June 30, 2013: Hayden, Olson, Perkins, and Davis

Today on Face The Nation: Supreme Court rulings, NSA leaks, abortion and more

BOB SCHIEFFER: We appreciate you coming to talk to us this morning because it's not easy to get people from the government that are in the government. Now, do you think the government ought to be doing more to help the American people understand what's happening here?

GENERAL MICHAEL HAYDEN: Look, one of the results of the Snowden links is that it's launched a-- a national debate about the balance between privacy and security. I am convinced the more the American people know exactly what it is we are doing in this balance between privacy and security, the more they know the more comfortable they will feel. So-- so, frankly, I think we ought to be doing a bit more to explain what it is we're doing, why, and the very tight safeguards under which we're operating.

BOB SCHIEFFER: You know this week it was disclosed that General Cartwright who was the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs, known to be very close to the administration--

GENERAL MICHAEL HAYDEN: Right.

BOB SCHIEFFER: --it comes out that he now is being investigated by-- about some of these leaks. Is it conceivable to you that-- that General Cartwright could-- could be the leaker here?

GENERAL MICHAEL HAYDEN: Well, look, besides being close to the administration, Jim Cartwright is close to me. He was a good friend while I was in active duty. I mean we do not produce better officers than-- than-- than Jim Cartwright. And, so as this evolves, I-- I certainly pray that it doesn't lead to any kind of personal or national tragedy as we move forward on this. But, Bob, that reflects the question you just asked a few minutes ago, how are we in a free society to have a healthy dialogue between those in government who must do necessary and necessarily secret things and an American public who deserves at least some broad outline about what it is we're doing to protect them. I mean this is a true dilemma.

BOB SCHIEFFER: You sound to me like this morning, General, you are calling on the administration or at least basically pleading with the administration to give us more information about what's going on here.

GENERAL MICHAEL HAYDEN: Well, here-- here's how I do the math, Bob. In an ideal world I keep all of this secret because any of it that I make public slices some of my operational advantage away from me. But here's what I've learned heading up both NSA and CIA. You may be able to do one thing one-off based upon narrow legalness and the President's authorization, but democracies like ours don't get to do something over a long period of time without national consensus. So I'm willing to shave points off of my operational effectiveness in order to make the American people a bit more comfortable about what it is we're doing otherwise the American people won't let us do it in the first place.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Story in the Washington Post this morning that basically said that critics are saying that the-- the secret court, the FISA court, that authorizes all of this was-- the story is-- some critics suggest that FISA was just a rubberstamp for whatever the administration wanted to do. The story says that you actually met with the FISA court--

GENERAL MICHAEL HAYDEN: I did.

BOB SCHIEFFER: --judge who took great exception to that version of history.

GENERAL MICHAEL HAYDEN: Right.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Was that unusual for you to be meeting with her?

GENERAL MICHAEL HAYDEN: It was. Normally, we-- we go down to the court to get warrants in a very routine manner. What was happening in the summer of 2004 was not at all routine. It was quite a different kind of court order that we were seeking. I-- I can't go into the specific operational details but it was an unprecedented court order that we had to explain to Judge Kollar-Kotelly why we wanted it, what the tradeoffs would be, how we could manage it and then, frankly, take an awful lot of her guidance as to how we would have to do it if she were even to contemplate giving us a warrant to do it.

BOB SCHIEFFER: About out of time here but let me just ask you--in your view, was the FISA court rubberstamping whatever the government wanted to do?

GENERAL MICHAEL HAYDEN: No. No, not at all. And I know people point to the number of warrants we request and the number of warrants we get saying it's rubberstamp. Actually, Bob, I would turn that on its head. That tells me we weren't pressing the court hard enough. We weren't giving them any tough decisions.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Thank you very much, General.

GENERAL MICHAEL HAYDEN: Thank you.

BOB SCHIEFFER: And we'll be back in one minute with a lot more.

BOB SCHIEFFER: We're going to turn now to those big Supreme Court decisions of last week and with us is Ted Olson. Mister Olson, it's great to have you with us today. Out in California over the weekend, dozens of same-sex couples got marriage licenses. A former solicitor general for the Bush administration, you argued the case that won out there. So let's-- let's talk about this a little bit because coupled with the overthrow of DOMA, the Defense of Marriage Act, these decisions go beyond being just historic, don't they?