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Face the Nation Transcripts July 17, 2016: Manafort, Gingrich, Barbour

JOHN DICKERSON, CBS HOST: Good morning, and welcome to FACE THE NATION from inside the Quicken Loans Arena in Cleveland, site of the 2016 Republican Convention.

Donald Trump formally announced his pick for vice president yesterday, and he and running mate Mike Pence are getting ready to head to Cleveland for the official coronation of the party nominees, while the terror attack in Nice and attempted coup in Turkey highlights the stakes for the next president.

We will hear the new Republican ticket in a preview of tonight's "60 Minutes" interview.

From here in Cleveland, we will talk with the head of the Trump campaign, Paul Manafort, Cleveland Police Chief Calvin Williams, and check in with one of the finalists for V.P. pick, Newt Gingrich.

Plus, we will have new Battleground Tracker poll numbers showing where the race stands heading into the party's convention.

It's all coming up on FACE THE NATION.

Good morning, and welcome to FACE THE NATION. I am John Dickerson, reporting from Cleveland.

Yesterday, Donald Trump made it official, naming former Indiana Governor Mike Pence as his running mate. Following that announcement, the two sat down with Lesley Stahl for an interview that will air tonight on "60 Minutes."

Here is a preview.


LESLEY STAHL, CBS ANCHOR: I don't know if you can remember the last time we have seen a world this much in chaos. You even said it is spinning apart. Are you both -- are you ready for this world that we are facing today?

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: We are both ready. I have no doubt. You need toughness. We need strength. Obama is weak. Hillary is weak. And part of it is that, a big part of it. We need law and order. We need strong borders. We have people coming to our country who can't be vetted properly. They don't have paperwork. They don't have anything. We don't even know where they come from.

GOV. MIKE PENCE (R-IN), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The larger issue here is declining American power in the world. I truly do believe that history teaches that weakness arouses evil.

And whether it be the horrific attack in France, the inspired attacks here in the United States, the instability in Turkey that led to a coup, I think that is all a result of a foreign policy of Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama that has led from behind and that has sent an inexact, unclear message about American resolve.

STAHL: Let's talk about what happened in Nice. Horrendous carnage, horrible, of innocents...

TRUMP: Horror.

STAHL: Horrible.

You said you would declare war against ISIS. What exactly do you have in mind?

TRUMP: It is war. By the way, it is war.

STAHL: No, but does that -- when you say declare war, do you want to send American troops in there? Is that what you mean?

TRUMP: Look, we have people that hate us. We have people that want to wipe us out. We have people that, if given the chance, will try to wipe us out.

And, as you know and as everyone knows, I was against the war in Iraq. I was totally against it, because I said it would destabilize the Middle East. And it has. That's exactly what has happened. It was a very bad decision. The way President Obama got us out of that war was a disaster.


STAHL: Do you want to get us back in there?

TRUMP: No. I want to win. I want to win.

STAHL: But...

TRUMP: Let me explain.

STAHL: Declare war.

TRUMP: We have to -- we're going to declare war against ISIS. We have to wipe out ISIS. These are people that chop off heads.

STAHL: With troops on the ground?

TRUMP: I am going to have very few troops on the ground. We're going to unbelievable intelligence, which we need, which right now we don't have. We don't have the people over there. We are going to use airpower...


STAHL: You want to send American...

TRUMP: Excuse me.

And we are going to have surrounding states and very importantly, get NATO involved, because we support NATO far more than we should, frankly, because you have a lot of countries that are not doing what they are supposed to be doing.

We have to wipe out ISIS. And speaking of Turkey, Turkey is an ally. Turkey can do it by themselves. But they have to be incentivized. For whatever reason, they are not. So, we have no choice.

Hillary Clinton invented ISIS with her stupid policies. She is responsible for ISIS. She led Barack Obama, because I don't think he knew anything. I think he relied on her. As Bernie Sanders said, her judgment is so bad. She has got bad judgment. She has got bad instincts.

(END VIDEO CLIP) DICKERSON: In addition no the war on terror, two talked to Lesley about how different they are and how they will deal with that in the campaign.

Again, that's tonight on "60 Minutes."

And joining us now is head of with the Trump campaign, Paul Manafort, who is with us on the floor as they rehearse behind us the calling of the states.

At the end of this convention, people will say what about Donald Trump?

PAUL MANAFORT, TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER: That he is ready to be president of the United States.

DICKERSON: The question his critics raise is, he does he have a temperament for the job when he is alone making those tough calls? How do you fix that question?

MANAFORT: Well, I think they're going to see more of the man. They have seen him on the campaign trail, but they haven't seen him in the back -- in the boardrooms. They haven't seen him up close and personal.

They have a perspective of the man, but we're going to -- this convention is going to focus on the whole part of the personality.

DICKERSON: How will it do that?

MANAFORT: Well, it is going to be a very personal convention.

You are going to have his family speaking. You are going to have friends who would know him speaking. You are going to have people who have worked with him, both inside the company and outside of the company. And so you are going to see how he has built his successful empire. You are going to see how he is taking care of people who, you know, he just meets through newspaper stories he reads about and has that sense of community and sense of philanthropy.

So you are going to get a broader perspective of the man.

DICKERSON: Is this Donald Trump's convention or the Republican Convention?

MANAFORT: Well, it is both, but this is clearly going to be Donald Trump's convention.

The delegates on the floor are going to be his delegates. More important, the message is going to be his. The platform that was passed on -- in this past week that will be adopted by the convention, he has his clear imprint on what would be -- what is the framework of principles that the Republican Party has had for many years, but the Trump stamp is on that platform. So it is a combination of both, but Donald -- this is a Donald Trump convention.

DICKERSON: And so, in that regard, is Donald Trump reshaping the Republican Party or the head of it?

MANAFORT: Well, I think a little bit of both.

I think that he campaigned on specific messages of change. He talked about some things that -- like a wall, building a wall, stopping immigration, to get a different perspective on trade, to get better trade deals and try and keep American jobs here.

You know, so in those areas, there is going to be an evolution. But in other areas, talked about the failed Clinton and Obama foreign policy, the problems that ISIS presents as a threat to the country, I mean, all Republicans agree with that. Frankly, all Americans do.

DICKERSON: When he announced his pick, Mike Pence, his number two on the ticket, he said, frankly, it is about party unity.

What does that mean?

MANAFORT: Well, a couple of months ago, when he announced his -- the beginning of the process of V.P. selection, he said several things.

He said he wants somebody who has the experience to be president as his vice president, he wanted somebody who could reach out beyond -- into the party, into people, because he is an outsider, he acknowledged and realized, and he wants the party to understand that he wants the party to be part of the team.

He said that was going to be important. And Governor Pence fits those criteria. And so, when he announced Mike Pence, he acknowledged the record, not just as governor, which has been very successful, where, as governor, Mike Pence basically did the kind of things for Indiana that Donald Trump is talking about doing for the United States.

DICKERSON: When I have talked to activists this week and party leaders, they say Mike Pence stabilizes Trump. How does he do that?

MANAFORT: Well, I don't know that he stabilizes Donald Trump, but he complements Donald Trump.

The two of them have the same view on all of the key issues of this country. But, at the same time, Pence brings a different perspective. Pence has been a part of Washington. He understands how to work in Washington. And he will be a real partner for Trump as Trump comes in to break the gridlock, which is what is paralyzing our company.

DICKERSON: Governor Pence said about the temporary ban on Muslim immigration, he said it was offensive and unconstitutional. Did he misunderstand what Donald Trump believed or has Donald Trump changed his position on that?

MANAFORT: Well, I think they both -- I mean, we are dealing with rhetoric here.

Donald Trump's position on immigration is that the world is a mess, terrorism is rampant internationally, people want to come here and destabilize our country. And he said, in terrorist areas, geographic areas that have historically got -- filled with rebellion, we have to put a temporary suspension, until we figure out what is going on.

And once we figure it out, we then have to have a vetting process, so we know who we are letting in. That, Governor Pence 100 percent agrees with.

DICKERSON: But, originally, he said Muslim. He didn't terrorist areas.


DICKERSON: And so the question is, is this an evolution for Donald Trump, or where are we on the eve of the convention?

MANAFORT: I think it is a deeper articulation of his position.

And in a more -- you know, less political environment, it explains what he means. And Pence -- Governor Pence totally agrees with that position.

DICKERSON: Reince Priebus, chairman of the party, said Donald Trump is going to go on an outreach tour of African-American and Hispanic areas. Where is he going to go? And what is he going to do?

MANAFORT: Well, we are putting the specific schedule together.

But the point that Chairman Priebus was making is that we are not isolating our campaign to just segments of the population. We're going to be focusing on all elements of society. We think black America is suffering more under Obama than it did before he became president.

We think crime in the black communities and the white communities is out of control. It is the direct result of failed leadership and of policies that haven't worked. And so we think that there is a base of support there for us to go in and carry that message.

DICKERSON: Donald Trump in his remarks yesterday talked about a rigged system and how the special interests have given to Hillary Clinton.

Isn't this convention we are at, though, a place where lots of money is raised from special interests? Isn't it a part of that same rigged system that Donald Trump has put his finger on?

MANAFORT: There is institutional money that goes into convention. That has nothing to do with Donald Trump. Donald Trump's point is that the gridlock of the last 25 years, of which Hillary Clinton has been a, not just a card-carrying member, but a leader of, has created a situation in the United States where people can no longer afford to live.

Even if they have jobs, they can't afford to pay their bills. And trade has basically caused the decimation of jobs in America. All of those elements is what Trump is talking about. And the special interests, who are trying to preserve their power over the systems, are supporting Hillary Clinton and the Democratic Party.

That's where the money is. Look at where that money, her money comes from. That's the rigged system that Trump is committed to changing.

DICKERSON: All right, we're out of time.

Paul Manafort, thanks for joining us.

MANAFORT: Thank you, John. Good to see you.

DICKERSON: And we go now to our Washington bureau and former House Speaker Newt Gingrich.

Speaker Gingrich, what can we learn, not from Donald Trump's final pick, but since you were a part of the presidential -- or the vice presidential process -- what can we learn about Donald Trump in the way he ran that process?

NEWT GINGRICH (R), FORMER SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Well, first of all, it was very methodical. He brought in an old pro, A.B. Culvahouse, who had done this many times. They were very thorough. We had about 113 questions to answer, some of which were fairly exhausting. The team that vetted folks, I had four lawyers sitting down with Callista and me for about two-and- a-half, almost three hours. And they went over a lot of stuff.

So, there was a very methodical presentation to Donald Trump, again, somebody who has run a big system and made big decisions and is used to the idea of having experts come in and brief him on what they have learned.

Second, the core group, Paul Manafort, who is the campaign manager, Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner, her husband, and Donald Jr. and Eric and then Donald Trump himself, that core group, as a team, was going through the entire vetting process and talking about it for several weeks.

And they recognized that this is the first really big irrevocable decision of his presidency, and that he has to -- he had to take it seriously. And he took it very seriously.

DICKERSON: You this week referred to Donald Trump as a pirate. What does that mean?

GINGRICH: Well, pirates are folks who are outside the regular order who get things done who are colorful. You know, just go watch "Pirates of the Caribbean."

I think it is a term, though, that mostly folks understand. He is not an establishment figure. He is not a traditional CEO of a bureaucratic corporation. He is a guy who has consistently done things that are big and bold and different, whether it is having the number one TV show in "The Apprentice" or having Miss Universe or Turnberry in Scotland.

I mean, again and again, he's done things that are outside the norm. And I think that he will be, frankly, a president who is very different than our normal presidents.

DICKERSON: You have mentioned before -- you said you wished he was about 10 percent more presidential.

What you are describing, that pirate aspect, does the presidency have room for that?


DICKERSON: Or is that just going to make people jittery?

GINGRICH: Well, Andrew Jackson and Theodore Roosevelt would have loved the term. And both of them lived it out.

I think that it is clear that this is a guy who is going to be different. If you want to break up the corrupt bureaucratic, incestuous system of Washington, you had better have somebody who has a very strong personality and who is very willing to be in fights. You are not going to get some nice, pleasant corporate bureaucrat to come to this city and dramatically change it. And I think Trump has proven, in beating 16 other candidates, that he has the fortitude and the intelligence and the commitment, that he actually has a chance of really, genuinely defeating the old order and forcing it to change, which it will resist very deeply.

DICKERSON: What is his biggest weakness?

GINGRICH: Who, Trump's?


GINGRICH: Probably that he doesn't know the regular traditional Republicans as well as he should have, because he wasn't a candidate.

I mean, I was with Former Attorney General Ed Meese recently, and we were thinking about the fact that Reagan had, from the fall of 1965, when he first announced for governor, to 1980, when he won the presidency, that is 15 years. By the time he got there, he knew everybody.

Trump has done something nobody else in American history has done. This is truly a stunning historic achievement. He came into the party at the very top. He took on 16 other candidates, many of them quite good and quite serious. And he won.

Well, you know, you are going to have certain things you haven't gotten done in that kind of story. One of them is -- and I think Mike Pence will be a big help with this -- he needed somebody who could be an ambassador to the traditional Republicans who have been around, who are suddenly startled by this new guy, who has, in effect, taken over their party.

DICKERSON: Can I ask you about that ambassadorship?

On the one hand, Donald Trump is saying the system is rigged. The special interests keep the system rigged. And he points to Hillary Clinton and the money she received as being sign of her corruption. But Mike Pence takes money. Republicans in Washington take money.

How do you fix a system that is rigged, when you're constantly pointing to these special interest contributions and your own team is taking them too? How do you fix that?

GINGRICH: Well, let me draw a distinction between the legitimate process of free speech, which the Supreme Court has defined quite clearly, and the idea that you are allowed in a free society to have thoughts, that you use money to communicate your thoughts.

And, for example, Secretary Clinton having 76 secret meetings while she is secretary in her office which she scrubbed from her record, only the Associated Press finally figured this out, nobody in the media has yet said, tell us the 76 people, tell us why they were there. All of them apparently were donors to the Clinton Foundation. The level of corruption that Hillary Clinton represents is unprecedented in American history for a presidential candidate.

DICKERSON: Let me ask you -- let me ask you a final question.

Are you disappointed you weren't picked?

GINGRICH: No, I think Pence is a great choice.

I feel very close to Donald and his family. And I am confident that I will have plenty of opportunity to try to help plan things and try to help move things forward. And I am looking forward to Cleveland.

DICKERSON: Would you serve in the Cabinet, quickly?

GINGRICH: I would certainly serve with the president, preferably in a position that he and I would work out.

DICKERSON: All right, Speaker Gingrich, thank you so much.

We will be back in a moment.


DICKERSON: And we're back now with former Republican National Committee Chairman and former Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour.

Governor Barbour, you have got to gavel this thing to order. Do you expect any shenanigans from the stop Trump movement at all?


I think people have realized that the Republican voters of the country have spoken. Donald Trump got -- he was not my first choice. He got more votes in the Republican primaries than any other Republican candidate in the history of our party.

He won a huge victory. And I think people are -- some people who weren't for him are reconciled to that.

DICKERSON: You think that is the case, they are reconciled?

Because I have been having a lot of conversations here with people who are kind of looking around. They are reconciled to fact he got the nomination, but they are still nervous. Mike Pence maybe helps towards that, but they're still nervous about what is going to happen to this Republican Party. Do you -- is that what you see?

BARBOUR: Well, I think people recognize that both parties have nominated the most negatively perceived candidates, nominees for the presidency in the history of polling, probably in the history of the country.

And so, of course, people worry about that, but I think this convention will help Donald Trump. I think a convention actually is a great big TV show.


BARBOUR: And in this TV show, they are going to learn a whole lot more about Donald Trump, and I think they are going to like what they learn.

Mike Pence, the Democrats are going to try to make him out to be an ogre. And he is such a nice man. He's a gentleman. He's nice to everybody. I think the American people are going to like Mike Pence. He has been a very, very good congressman, a good governor and well- received.

DICKERSON: When you think about this, this convention, I mean, is this Donald Trump's convention? Is this the Republican Party? Is it -- which way...

BARBOUR: You know, John, I ran this convention in 1996, when Bob Dole was our nominee.

It is Republican Party's convention, but it is totally colored by the nominee. If you go back to 1996, the closest the election ever was in our polling was Wednesday night of the convention. And I think this convention will be good for Donald Trump.

We have seen the polls are closing up much, much closer than not very long ago. And I think this will be good, but there's -- these -- neither of these conventions are going to be some quantum leap.

DICKERSON: Because there are a lot of people who aren't showing up, who a lot of analysts and even Republicans thought were the future of the Republican Party, Senator Rubio, Governor Nikki Haley, Governor Susana Martinez. They are not anywhere in evidence. Is that a problem for the Republican Party?

BARBOUR: Of course, for some of those people, like Marco Rubio, he is running for reelection. And he needs to be in Ohio (sic).

People who are running for office, they need to be where they are. We have got 24 senators who are up for reelection this year that are Republicans. And, candidly, unless Rob Portman, who is from Ohio -- for the rest of them, they are much, much better off to take this week in their own states, for their own elections.

DICKERSON: All right, what about the governor of Ohio, though? He is the governor of the state where the convention is, and he is missing in action.

BARBOUR: Well, you know, it would be great if John Kasich were here and if he would enthusiastically support the nominee.

For me, I voted for John Kasich in our primary in Mississippi. Trump was not my first choice. But my momma used to say life is a series of choices. And if the choice is between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton, I'm going to be for Donald Trump every time.

DICKERSON: As we can hear in the background, they are still rehearsing here.

I have been talking to party chairs who talk about that there's been a fund-raising hurt. You know about the process of raising money. Has Donald Trump hurt the ability to raise money for the Republican Party?

BARBOUR: Well, of course, in his campaign for the nomination, they didn't really take that very seriously.

It has to be taken seriously. A lot of people don't remember, John, Barack Obama outspent Mitt Romney. And right now, Hillary Clinton is raising enough money to burn a wet mule. And we are going to have to raise a sufficient amount of money to get our message out.

But it is not decided by money, but you have to have money to get your message out. And we are behind the curve, but we have got time to catch up.

DICKERSON: All right.

Governor Haley Barbour, thank you so much for being with us.

BARBOUR: Thanks, John.

DICKERSON: It should be an exciting week here.

And we will be back in a moment.


DICKERSON: Nationally, the race between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton is dead even.

And our CBS News Battleground Tracker says that is also the case in 11 battleground states. Hillary Clinton leads Donald Trump by one point in those 11, but that is within the margin of error.

Joining us now for analysis and more is CBS News director of elections Anthony Salvanto.

So, Anthony, heading into the convention, what is the state of the Trump coalition?

ANTHONY SALVANTO, CBS NEWS ELECTIONS DIRECTOR: Well, he has got this durable core of supporters which is keeping him competitive.

But what is really striking now, John, is what it is built on. More of his voters across these battleground states, a majority here in Ohio, say that they are with Donald Trump mainly because they oppose Hillary Clinton, more so than because they like Donald Trump.

You know, that is striking, because while part of his message is clearly working, you normally don't see numbers flip like that. Granted, this isn't a typical campaign. But successful campaigns tend to give, especially undecided voters, something more to be for than to be against. DICKERSON: And so does the Mike Pence pick help him in terms of giving people something to vote for? What are they looking for, the people in his coalition, that he might be able to give them that would fix that?


From the polling, it seems very clear that conservatives are happy with this pick. They wanted a vice president they thought was more conservative than Trump, very important.

And they also think that it adds stability to the ticket. They are more likely to call it a cautious choice than a bold one, not exactly a description we have heard a lot around the Trump campaign. But that seems to be precisely the point. So, it seems to shore up that base somewhat.

DICKERSON: So, that is the state of the Republican coalition for Donald Trump.

Does he -- how big is the group that he could grab from the other side, the Democrats, and what would he need to do that?

SALVANTO: It is not large. It is tangible. It is about one in five, maybe a little less than that.

And what is interesting, John, is how locked in this race is, because you have got eight in 10 of his voters who would never consider Hillary Clinton, eight in 10 of hers who won't consider him. So it is a small sliver that he is targeting here.

Notable, when asked what they want to hear at this convention, they say they would like to hear him take a softer tone, soften the rhetoric. And that's part of the balancing act that he really has here, because that softer tone is not what that durable core of his existing supporters wants to hear.

DICKERSON: And what about Hillary Clinton? Does she have any opportunity in the Republican side with those Trump voters who are not locked in? As you said, there are quite a lot of them.

SALVANTO: At this point, not very much.

It is really that handful of undecided and soft supporters that haven't quite made up their minds yet. There really aren't many of those. Again, it is really just a sliver of the electorate.

And that is because so many of his supporters won't consider her, and so many, of course, of his supporters won't move either. And so I think that that is -- both of them are really coming at to that narrow target, especially as the conservative base now, the Republican base, appears to be shoring up by the Pence pick.

They are increasingly likely to say now that they're more with Trump, that that support has hardened a little bit as a result of the pick. DICKERSON: All right, Anthony Salvanto, thank you so much, fighting through North Carolina and South Dakota there.

And we will be right back.


DICKERSON: Some of our CBS stations are leaving us now, but, for most of you, we will be right back with a lot more FACE THE NATION.

More on Donald Trump and his pick of Mike Pence, the state of the conservative party, and all that is expected in next week's Republican Convention here.

Stay with us.


DICKERSON: We're back here at the Republican Convention in Cleveland, which you can hear behind me, with "The Wall Street Journal" columnist Kim Strassel, who has the new book out, "The Intimidation Game: How the Left is Silencing Free Speech," Ben Domenech (ph) is the publisher of "The Federalist," and Matt Schlapp is the chairman of the American Conservative Union.

Kim, let me start with you.

Mike Pence is now on the ticket. What does that mean?

KIMBERLEY STRASSEL, "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL": It's a good thing for Donald Trump in general. This is a guy who has been in Washington, so he's respected by a lot of the leaders that Donald Trump still needs to reassure out there. He is an evangelical Christian. This is a community that Donald Trump really needs to get to come out and vote for him this fall. He's a policy guy, ran the Republican study committee, which is something that's really valued by a lot of people out there who care about conservative policy, and he's just an articulate guy as well too. He's going to be good for getting across Donald Trump's message.

DICKERSON: Ben, a lot of the people I talked to go through that list of qualifications and note that that's quite different than Donald Trump. So is this a sign of the breadth of the Republican coalition, or is it a match that might have some difficulty staying together?

BEN DOMENECH, "THE FEDERALIST": I think it's a tempt -- an attempt on the part of the Trump campaign to really normalize him as a candidate, and it's a direct geographic play to compete in the Midwest. I think that Mike Pence is the kind of candidate who's going to help out in some of these Midwestern states where Donald Trump is more competitive than perhaps other Republicans have been. The problem for him is that he is another white guy, a Christian conservative, kind of an old school Republican, Bush era kind of conservative, who may not have enough appeal to compete -- to help Donald Trump compete in a state like Florida, which could prove more challenging for him.

DICKERSON: What do you think about that, Matt? I mean I talked to one activist in the party, Republican Party, who said they doubled down on white guys with this pick.


DICKERSON: What does that mean in terms of the map, in terms of outreach and how the ticket's going to compete in those states we all are so familiar with?

SCHLAPP: Look, this is one of the ways in which Donald Trump is unconventional. You usually panders to voters. You say, oh, here's where Democrats are weak, so we'll try to make Democrats (INAUDIBLE) on the ticket. And instead he said, who is the vice president I need to be an effective president? Who can help me kind of go through the Washington dysfunction and try to make sense of it and who's someone who's got enough government experience, including as an executive, to make the kind of change I want to make.

So, yes, you could look at all the ways on the optics that it might not be perfect, but it's a home run in every other way and he's going to come out of this convention with conservatives and Republicans behind him like they've never been before.

DICKERSON: Ben, I -- Paul Manafort wouldn't buy this idea, but a lot of the people I've talked to keep using the world "stabilize," as if the nominee is a volatile mixture and needs a drop of something to -- so it's not so much what Mike Pence may do in office, as Mat -- Matt's points are taken, but it's that he is a signal that Donald Trump has listened to those who have been advising him and saying, we need something a little more solid in the -- in the ticket, not something so volatile.

DOMENECH: Perhaps he has. I think the problem for him with this Pence pick, though, is that if he hopes to completely lock down people who had objections to Trump within the party, I'm not sure the Pence is going -- the Pence pick is going to do that. He's normalizing to a certain degree, but for those who are -- have been resistant to Trump to this point, you know, Paul Manafort is very familiar with crushing rebellions of all kind and I think in this context there are a lot of people who still don't like Donald Trump and even picking someone like Mike Pence is not going to bring them back onto the Republican wagon this time around, particularly swing voters and independents, who he needs to appeal to.

STRASSEL: Yes, only Donald Trump can do that. And I think that that's a thing that the Trump campaign still needs to understand. If you look out there, he's unified behind to about 75 percent of the Republican Party. You need it to be above 90. And Mike Pence is going to help with that a little bit, but that's what this week is going to have to be about for the Trump campaign is him standing up there on stage saying, I want your vote. I'm going to reassure you on these things and these things and these things. Maybe it's just a question too of saying, you need vote for me because we can't afford to have Hillary Clinton president. But whatever that message is, it's got to be where he can get up to that 90 percent. And then, by the way, he could be in an interesting position because he has polled a lot of people from outside the party and -- as well, too, that are behind him.

SCHLAPP: John --

STRASSEL: But this is unification.

SCHLAPP: John, if I could just say, I have people on the board, of which I'm the chairman, who have called me since the Pence pick who were in the never Trump kind of camp and they've said, this reassures me enough, not only to support Donald Trump, some of them are getting on airplanes and coming here. I've talked to conservatives across the country, that this is exactly the type of pick that they wanted to see him make, because he's keeping the trust with his primary voters when he said, I'm going to govern on these conservative values. So this is -- I have anecdotal evidence that this is happening across the country.

DOMENECH: The Mike Pence pick does not change the fact that the Republican Party is now the party of Donald Trump.

SCHLAPP: You're -- you're --

DOMENECH: One hundred and fifty years ago this party was --

SCHLAPP: You're simply wrong.

DOMENECH: Was begun by Abraham Lincoln on the idea that constitutional rights were not bound by race or creed, that we could -- that the American eagles wings were broad enough to accept all who would come here. Now this party is coming to Cleveland to die.

SCHLAPP: That's wrong.

DOMENECH: This is not the party of Abraham Lincoln any more.

SCHLAPP: that's completely wrong.

DOMENECH: It is the party of Donald Trump that has -- it has traded statesmanship for xenophobia. It has traded free markets for protectionism. It has traded the higher principles of our better angels --


DOMENECH: For -- for the belief in party identity politics. That is why they are getting zero percent of the black vote in Pennsylvania. That is why you are going to continue to see this kind of race baiting approach to politics. I think it's completely true that this is the end of the party of Lincoln.

SCHLAPP: Let me just say, this is the very type of elite Washington judgment that the voters in the Republican --


SCHLAPP: Let me finish. No, no, let me --


SCHLAPP: That the -- that the voters across this country are sick and tired of, not just Republicans, a lot of union voters, a lot of independent voters, they believe that when you tell them, these people who voted for Donald Trump in record numbers, when you call them racist or xenophobic --

DOMENECH: They're not racist.

SCHLAPP: Let me finish. When you say that they're race baiting or responding to those policies, you're judging them. And these are voters who have given him more voters than any Republican that has run for office. I refuse to believe that those Republican activists and those conservative activist are racist and that they're --

DOMENECH: They are not.

SCHLAPP: They're -- they're ill intended. They love their country. And they simply want to take it back.

DOMENECH: They are desperate for change. They are desperate for something different than the elites who have failed them for far too long. But they have turned, in their desperation, to a man who they don't fully understand and who's not going to deliver on his promises, specifically (INAUDIBLE) principle that actually (INAUDIBLE).

DICKERSON: So, Kim, do you have a way to adjudicate this debate?

STRASSEL: Look, I -- I think you have to make a distinction between the party and a man who's leading as the somewhat controversial head of the party at the moment. In terms of the party, the Republican Party has always been a very dynamic and fluid entity that has a lot of changes, and ebbs and flows in it. And -- and I think what we're seeing again is -- is some more changes out there. Donald Trump, again, he's going to have to try to unify some of this.

DICKERSON: But -- and, Matt, back to -- to Ben's point, though, and what I was talking about with the earlier guests, I mean you do -- Senator Rubio isn't here, Susana Martinez --


DICKERSON: And Governor Nikki Hayley.


DICKERSON: These are not elitists. These are people from in the states. They are governors. They used to be the --

SCHLAPP: All right, so --

DICKERSON: They used to be the farm team of the Republican Party. The farm team is not here.


DICKERSON: That seems to be attention that needs to be explained.

SCHLAPP: I'm -- I'm not going to spin you on this. I'm not going to tell you, oh, don't look at that, that doesn't mean anything. It does mean something. The fact is, Donald Trump is not always -- has not always been a Republican. He's a recent republican. There's no question that he comes from outside of the party. And he's taking on these elected officials who have been in power. And of course they're unhappy with it. It makes them uncomfortable. It makes a lot of people uncomfortable who are the party regulars who have been running these conventions every four years. And we shouldn't be surprised that that's happened.

And here's a fact. What's going on in Republicans' and conservatives' minds is this, they don't have to be for 100 percent of what Trump's for, they just have to be for 60 percent of what Trump's for. And that's the fight that's going on inside all these voters' heads. And what they're going to see this week is going to tip it over that 50 percent mark and we're going to come out of here with more Republicans and more conservatives. It might not be 90, 92 percent, but it's going to be right in that vicinity and it's going to be enough with all the independents and all the unions and all the Democratic voters he's going to pull over, it's going to be enough to win in November.


STRASSEL: I think the question though is, if there's 10 percent, they absolutely cannot vote for. Do you see what I'm saying? Yes, like 60 percent of what he stands for. But if there's something that's just a deal breaker for them, then that's still a problem.

DICKERSON: Do you think there is a deal breaker? Do you --

STRASSEL: I think that for some Republicans out there, there still is a deal breaker just with his personality, which is why this moment is so important for him. He's going to have to stand up and ask -- one thing you never really hear Donald Trump say it, I really want your vote.

DICKERSON: Do you think, though, given the -- the qualms that people have, you can fix it with a PR show, which is what everybody here admits this is. I mean these are deep questions that have been raised (INAUDIBLE).

STRASSEL: Conventions are always about an opportunity for a candidate to showcase who they are. And yes they're a bit staged, but this is about Donald Trump letting people know who he is.

DOMENECH: Donald Trump is currently running about 10 to 12 percentage points behind Marco Rubio in Florida. That's the difference that he needs to close. He gets -- he needs to get those voters to come back and be convinced that he will be a better president than Hillary Clinton. DICKERSON: All right, thank you all very much for this spirited discussion. We'll see after a weeks' work whether -- where we all are on our positions.

And we'll be right back.


DICKERSON: Security is a top concern here in Cleveland. We want to check in now with Cleveland Police Chief Calvin Williams.

Chief Williams, give us a sense of the scope of the things that you're watching here on the eve of the convention.

CALVIN WILLIAMS, CLEVELAND POLICE CHIEF: Well, right now, this morning, it's pretty quiet. There's a lot of movement around by our state, local and federal partners to get things positioned for later on this evening. And the city right now exact -- obviously is pretty quiet. We expect things to pick up later on this afternoon.

DICKERSON: In terms of various groups that might either be causing trouble or just having peaceful protests, can you give us a sense of how many you're -- you're watching?

WILLIAMS: We're not actually watching any particular group. There have been approximately four or five groups that have signed up to actually do our official parade route. We've had impromptu parade marches or protest marches, probably for about the last five or six days. We actually had one yesterday afternoon with a -- a group that was voicing their First Amendment concerns and we expect to have them throughout the convention, whether they are, you know, scheduled or impromptu.

DICKERSON: There was -- there have been reports that anarchists are thinking about causing trouble here in Cleveland. Have you heard any of that or -- or any sense of that?

WILLIAMS: Well, we've heard reports from different sources about everyone from anarchists to black separatists to, you know, just regular Trump followers, anti-Trump followers. I mean everybody has been, you know, in some way, shape or form touted as coming to chief to either cause trouble or to exercise their First Amendment rights. But we're prepared for it all.

DICKERSON: The open carry firearm law, does that pose a particular challenge here in Cleveland?

WILLIAMS: Well, there's always a challenge when firearms and the public kind of mesh together. But we've had open carry scenarios in the city before. And we've handed them. We plan to handle them the same way as we always have. Of course, we've ramped that up a little as far as our technique and our tactics to handle them. But in this state, everyone has the -- the right to open carry and we want to make sure people do that safely.

DICKERSON: Have you changed anything in your tactics in response to the attack in Nice, France?

WILLIAMS: Somewhat. We've placed barriers or barricades at certain key streets and intersections around the downtown neighborhood just to make sure that things like that transpired in Nice are thwarted here in Cleveland if they're attempted, or at least mitigated. So, you know, things that happen around the country and around the world do affect to some degree how we respond here in Cleveland.

DICKERSON: How do the attacks on police officers in Dallas affect the way you're -- you're responding here in Cleveland?

WILLIAMS: You know, although tragic in Dallas, it didn't affect our overall plan a whole lot. You know, we always plan for every eventuality. And a scenario, unfortunately, like Dallas, we already had in our plans, although we did maybe up some of the resources dedicated to those scenarios in the plan after Dallas.

DICKERSON: All right, thank you so much, Chief Williams, for being with us. Good luck.

And we'll be back in a moment.


DICKERSON: There's also breaking news this morning as we're getting reports that multiple officers have been shot in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. That's the city where Alton Sterling, a young black man, was killed outside of a convenience store ten days ago by a police officer.

And we're back here in Cleveland now with Peggy Noonan, who is a CBS News contributor and columnist for "The Wall Street Journal." The man next to her needs no introduction, but we note that this is his 25th convention and we're happy to have you here, Bob, especially in this moment of breaking news. And Ed O'Keefe, who covers politics for "The Washington Post."

Bob, I want to start with you.

We've just had this report of officers shot in Baton Rouge. React to that, but also this political campaign continues to have interruptions by violence or terrorism where here it's happened again. What's your thoughts?

BOB SCHIEFFER, CBS NEWS POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I mean, this is a nation on edge, John. This is a city on edge here in Ohio. This is a political party that's on edge.

Last night, several of us were having dinner down by -- by the lake. A group of Cleveland police officers came on bicycles. There were -- must have been 50 of them. As they passed by the restaurant, everyone stood up as one and gave them a round of applause. That tells you what's on people's minds these days, and -- and where this country is these days. I think that all of us who are here to cover this are hoping that this story is going to be inside this convention hall and not outside. But right now there are -- that's just one more unanswered question in a convention that seems to me to be about unanswered questions.

DICKERSON: Peggy, you, at one point, had the job of taking big national moments interrupted and -- and giving voice to a president who has to -- had to talk about them. Candidates here have to come up with something to say to address this. But we're in a political campaign where the instinct is often to heighten people's anxieties, to make them afraid of the other candidate. Perhaps the race we've got is one in which that's more the case than ever. What do these candidates do, what is the -- where does the conversation need to go if you're in politics right now?

PEGGY NOONAN, "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL": Well, there will be no ignoring the story you just spoke of as the story emerges and the facts become clear. It -- it's -- it's difficult. My -- my first thought was that stories like this, like Dallas, like Nice, all of these stories of violence and sadness, which have been punctuating the news at almost a heightened pace, they somehow show the distance between enacted democracy in formal settings like this and a real world that is turbulent, full of turmoil, and -- and wrinkling itself out in some new way. But I -- I think this -- this story that has happened may become something that will have to be dealt with and in a very serious way, especially after Dallas, where we all experienced such trauma.

DICKERSON: Ed, in -- after Dallas, the shooting there, Donald Trump said he was the law and order candidate. He mentioned that again yesterday in his remarks announcing Mike Pence as his running make. What is -- what's your sense of the way the two candidates will speak to this moment? I'm thinking for the moment about Robert Kennedy, when he announces in Indianapolis, that -- that Martin Luther King has been shot. I mean that was an historic turning point. But he was there, the cameras were on him, and he spoke to an anguish in the country. What's your sense of how the two candidates will respond?

ED O'KEEFE, "WASHINGTON POST": I think no matter what they say, John, it may be quickly forgotten. I mean it was just this week that you saw President Obama and President Bush stand on a stage together in Dallas to commemorate that violence in Dallas. Do any of us really remember what was said? Do -- I mean do viewers even have a vivid recollection of that moment? Not necessarily because the move -- the news and these moments move so quickly now, they bleed into each other, and it's very difficult to really have profound political moments.

I've been struck -- you know, think about it, Friday night a nearly deposed president goes on Facetime to tell people to take to the streets. A few weeks ago, a woman live streamed the shooting of her boyfriend on FaceBook, and that brought people to the streets. We're in this hall, which will be broadcast in all sorts of way, and the format of this hasn't changed in a world that's changing so rapidly. And I just wonder if American political infrastructure is really rising to the moment and able to really resonate any more.

SCHIEFFER: Well, one -- one would hope that the words of the Dallas mayor, Mike Rawlings, who said words matter, one would hope that would be the guiding philosophy of this convention. But the other part, John, is, you know, it's not going to take one news conference, it's not going to take one prayer service, it's not going to take one political convention to solve the problems this country is immersed in at -- at this point. If it -- if that's all it took, we would -- already would have solved it because what was the -- President Obama went to his 11th memorial service when he was down there in Dallas.


SCHIEFFER: This is not about just making if up some rules and say, well, OK, everything's fine now. It's going to go on for a while.

NOONAN: Can I -- yes. can I note also, I am not certain the American people, at this point, are looking to the people speaking formally, the candidates, the party candidates, right now, for leadership in so much a way that they look at regular Americans forced into prominence, like David Brown, the police chief in Dallas, who came forward with common sense, heart, guts and eloquence. It's funny, but the American people aren't looking to them right now. They're looking to the American people dealing with the trauma every day of what's happening in our country.

DICKERSON: But should -- should they be looking to their leaders? Or -- or are you saying they're not looking at them because they've passed them off? They're just -- they've been ineffective?

NOONAN: I think something like that is happening. Look, I think this entire convention is, as Matt Schlapp said, in a way a rebuke of Washington. I don't sense people are looking to Washington for moral and eloquent and meaningful leadership at these times anymore as much as they used to. And I suppose that would be another show, why. But it is my sense of things.


NOONAN: If we have the story breaking this morning, I don't think anybody's going to say, what did Mrs. Clinton say?


NOONAN: What did Trump say? But they're going to talk about what some other people said.

O'KEEFE: And -- and -- and tomorrow night, the opening night of this, it's going to be all about Secretary Clinton and Benghazi. Like that -- that is the main focus of it. It's not going to be about why to vote for Donald Trump, it's going to be about why not to vote for Hillary Clinton. It comes at a time -- we have post ABC polling out this morning that shows that the two of them remain the most deeply unpopular presidential nominees in -- in modern polling and probably American history. There's just no appetite for either of them. It's becoming an election about voting against the other person. No reason to believe they would tune in this week for answers.

SCHIEFFER: John, what has happened here? I mean we talk a lot about our roads and bridges collapsing and crumbling, but our political infrastructure, I think, is in worse shape right now that the roads and bridges in this country. People have lost confidence. They see the Congress come and go. They vote for one person or another. Nothing happens. We see people get up and run for president and they denounce one candidate or another and then suddenly they get on the ticket perhaps or they're trying to get on the ticket and -- and the nominee is a great guy. People have come to the conclusion that politicians will say and do anything and they don't see it making much difference. I mean the purpose of government is to improve the lives of our citizens, not to entertain us. And I think many people think that it's not doing that.


SCHIEFFER: And that's why we are where we are.

DICKERSON: That's -- and -- and, so, Peggy, given what Bob said and what you've said, which is nobody's looking to the -- to the platform here for answers --

NOONAN: Not for that.

DICKERSON: But isn't Donald Trump saying, I have the answers. I am the solution to the broken system that Bob talks about, the system that has people so disappointed and angry and he's saying I'm the fix. But your -- you're saying --

NOONAN: He is saying, I am the breakaway from what doesn't work. The question then arises, how will you make it work? What do you have in terms of political experience? We know there is none. But what do you have -- what exactly do you want? How will you execute? I suspect there are a number of people who are wondering if he can execute on -- on the things that he has done.

Look, what I am struck by here in Cleveland is, we're at the beginning of a convention that hasn't quite begun yet, but it almost has. There is a sense of unsureness and anxiety. There are people trying very hard to say, we are united and excited. There are people who almost have told me, frankly, we're in a barrel going ore Niagara falls. You know, at this point, just enjoy the ride. You -- and you -- here's who I'm waiting to meet, the fabulous Trump delegate who's never been to a convention before who is on fire for his guy and who can make the case to me. I can't wait to meet that person.

DICKERSON: All right, well, we've run out of time, so we'll have to leave it there. Thanks to all of you.

And we'll be right back.


DICKERSON: That's it for us today. Thank you for watching. An update on that shooting. There are at least two police officers dead in that shooing in Baton Rouge. We will have more of that on our digital network, CBSN, and tonight on a special one hour edition of "The Evening News" from here in Cleveland.

For FACE THE NATION, I'm John Dickerson.

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