Face the Nation transcripts July 10, 2016: Rawlings, Johnson, Bratton, Brooks, Cummings, Giuliani

DALLAS, TX - JULY 8: Dallas police work near the scene where eleven Dallas police officers were shot and five have now died on July 8, 2016 in Dallas, Texas. According to reports, shots were fired during a protest being held in downtown Dallas in response to recent fatal shootings of two black men by police - Alton Sterling on July 5, 2016 in Baton Rouge, Louisiana and Philando Castile on July 6, 2016, in Falcon Heights, Minnesota. (Photo by Ron Jenkins/Getty Images)
Ron Jenkins, Getty Images

**Editors' note: In the introductory script below, "Face the Nation" refers to the police officers involved in the shootings of Philando Castile and Alton Sterling as "white." However, the race of the officer who shot Castile, Yeronimo Janez, has not been identified.

JOHN DICKERSON, CBS HOST: Today on FACE THE NATION: America reels after the horrific attack on Dallas police officers and police shootings of two African-Americans.

There's been more violence and arrests overnight at protests in both Baton Rouge and St. Paul, where two African-Americans were killed by white police officers last week. We will have the latest.

Then we will turn to investigation into Micah Johnson's shooting rampage in Dallas, where he killed five police officers and wounded another seven, before he was killed by a robotic bomb. We will hear from Dallas Mayor Mike Rawlings, Homeland Secretary Jeh Johnson, and New York City Police Commissioner Bill Bratton.

As the president weighs in on race in America...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I firmly believe that America is not as divided as some have suggested.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DICKERSON: ... we will look at solutions to improving relations between blacks and the police with the head of the NAACP, Cornell William Brooks, Maryland Congressman Elijah Cummings, former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani, and more.

It's all ahead on FACE THE NATION.

Good morning, and welcome to FACE THE NATION. I'm John Dickerson.

There were over 100 arrests in Baton Rouge last night, as protesters marched where Alton Sterling was killed by a police officer outside a convenience store. In St. Paul, where Philando Castile was shot and killed after a traffic stop, there were police injuries following clashes with protesters.

CBS News correspondent David Begnaud is in Baton Rouge this morning -- David.

DAVID BEGNAUD, CBS NEWS CORRESPONDENT: John, good morning.

As the sun rises over the capital city here in Baton Rouge this morning, it is quiet here at the spot where Alton Sterling died at the hands of those two Baton Rouge police officers.

But the tension between police and protesters continued here last night. And around the country, similar protests turned violent.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTERS: No justice, no peace!

BEGNAUD (voice-over): Last night protesters here in Baton Rouge were defiant, but they were not violent. They blocked the street in front of Baton Rouge police headquarters. And that's when police in riot gear moved in to clear the roadway.

Activist DeRay McKesson with the Black Lives Matter movement was arrested for standing in the road after protesters were repeatedly ordered to get out and stay on the grass.

In St. Paul, Minnesota, protests continued, with some people violently targeting the police. At least five St. Paul police officers were injured when protesters hurled rocks, bottles, fireworks and even bricks. No officer was seriously hurt.

Interstate 94 in St. Paul was closed for more than five hours. And in New York, around 23 arrests were made in what were mostly peaceful protests.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BEGNAUD: Back here in Baton Rouge, more protests are scheduled for today.

DeRay McKesson was booked into the East Baton Rouge Jail and charged with simple obstruction of a highway. John, we're told he may get out of jail some time later today or early tomorrow morning.

DICKERSON: David Begnaud in Louisiana, thanks.

DeRay McKesson was scheduled to appear today on this broadcast. He live-streamed his arrest from his phone through social media last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: City police, you're under arrest.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't fight me. Don't fight me. Don't fight me.

DERAY MCKESSON, SOCIAL MEDIA ACTIVIST: I'm under arrest, you all.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Back up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DICKERSON: We turn now to the investigation and aftermath of the attack on Dallas police officers.

Dallas Mayor Mike Rawlings joins us from outside City Hall.

Mr. Mayor, just to start, can you update us on what's the latest we have learned about the shooter and his plans here?

MIKE RAWLINGS, MAYOR OF DALLAS, TEXAS: Well, we keep looking into his files, talking to his neighbors, his family.

Our objective is to see if there's anybody that aided and abetted him, conspired with him. We don't have any new news on that regards. That's going to probably take some days.

DICKERSON: There were others arrested immediately afterwards on the scene. What can you tell us about those arrests?

RAWLINGS: You know, in kind of dealing with the law of gun- holding, you can carry a rifle legally. And when you have gunfire going on, you usually go with the person that's got a gun.

And so our police grabbed some of those individuals, took them to police headquarters, and worked it out and figured out that they were not the shooters. But that is one of the real issues with the gun right issues that we face, that, in the middle of a firefight, it's hard to pick out the good guys and the bad guys.

DICKERSON: Did that complicate the issue at the moment?

RAWLINGS: Well, I think so.

I wasn't there real time to kind of see it go on. But the common sense would tell you don't know where the gunfire's coming from. There were individuals that ran across the gunfire. They were in the body armor, camo gear with rifles slung over their shoulders. So it sure took our eye off the ball for the moment. We got them out of the way. We figured out what was happening and we did our business.

DICKERSON: You were in on the decision to use a bomb in the end to kill the shooter. Tell us about that.

RAWLINGS: It was a difficult decision, because the safety of our police officers were in our mind.

We had just lost so many, and we had had those shot. And so the chief had two options, and he went with this one. I supported him completely, because it was the safest way to approach it. And we talked to this man a long time. And he threatened to blow up our police officers. We went to his home. We saw that there was bomb-making equipment later. So, we -- it was very important that we realized that he may not be bluffing. So, we ask him, do you want to come out safely or do you want to stay there and we are going to take you down? And he chose the latter.

DICKERSON: Before the shooting, Dallas was actually a model for community and police relations.

So, as people struggle all over the country after this week, what was Dallas doing right? Excessive force complaints were at a two- decade low. What can they learn from Dallas before the shooting?

RAWLINGS: Well, first of all, I think training of our police officers is first and foremost.

I'm so proud of our police force. They were one of the first to train in de-escalation, how do you deal with individuals, protect yourself, protect them, get them dealt with in the right manner. Second, community policing is important. But, third, also, supporting police officers are important in this.

Recruiting is down across the nation for our police officers. And we have got to make this a noble profession. And we can't let a very, very small few impact this noble profession. And so doing all three of those, getting the right officers on board, and then training them correctly is what we're all about.

DICKERSON: Finally, Mr. Mayor, "The Dallas Morning News" has a front-page editorial that says, now we face a test.

What's the test for Dallas, as you see it?

RAWLINGS: Well, I think we are a laboratory for the United States.

Can we, in a moment of crisis, when officers are fallen, forgive? Can we disagree without demonizing? Can we see a better narrative, as opposed to just absurdity, that there's redemption as we build this great city?

I believe we can. And I believe we will.

DICKERSON: All right, Mr. Mayor, we thank you very much for being with us this morning.

RAWLINGS: Thank you. Thank you, John.

DICKERSON: Joining us now from New York City, New York Police Commissioner William Bratton and head of the Homeland Security Department, Jeh Johnson.

Secretary Johnson, I want to start with you.

You have said there's no link to a terrorist organization here, but the shooting in Dallas was, by any definition, terrorism and a hate crime, wasn't it?

JEH JOHNSON, SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Well, there's still an investigation being conducted by the Dallas Police Department and by the FBI, supported by lots of other resources in local government and the federal government. So, it's still relatively early.

We do know from Chief Brown that this individual apparently told the hostage negotiator that he wanted to kill white people, especially white police officers. I think that's almost a quote. And so this is obviously a terrible act. It appears to have been targeted at police officers, particularly white police officers.

And it's a time to come together to heal, to mourn, but to remember that the shooter is not reflective of the larger movement to bring about change that was out in Dallas to peacefully demonstrate. And those who engage in enforcement force in the law enforcement community aren't reflective of the larger law enforcement community.

It's critical to remember that violence never saws anything. An eye for an eye leaves everybody blind. And this is a time to heal. It's a time to come together. It's a time to mourn.

DICKERSON: Commissioner Bratton, describe for us the pressure that police officers are feeling now, with the heightened scrutiny of those who have misbehaved as police officers and then also in the wake of this shooting.

BILL BRATTON, NYPD COMMISSIONER: This is a time of great pressure on our officers.

There's always pressure on American police officers, danger. But the good news is that American police, the American police profession is a strong profession that has been going through profound changes over the last 20 years, constant improvement in their training, constant improvement in use of force, continuing efforts in recent years to teach our officers de-escalation techniques, and also the idea of trying to see the community and have the community see them.

Policing is a shared responsibility. It's all about dialogue. It's all about understanding each other, seeing each other, hearing each other. Remember, police officers come from the community. We don't bring them in from Mars. They come from the communities they police.

And over the years, increasingly, we have had much more diversity in policing, Muslim officers, increasing numbers of African-American officers, Latino officers. And that's a good thing, because the community wants to see that. And that's part of the way we bridge the divide that currently exists police and community, a divide that's been closing and a divide that we hope over time, and certainly here in New York -- and I can speak for our efforts here the last several years, myself and Mayor de Blasio, not only to bridge the divide, but to close it.

And I think it can be done. I'm ever the optimist on this issue. DICKERSON: Commission Bratton, as someone who had police officers killed in a similar incident to the kind of that happened in Dallas, did you see this coming, given the level of tension and debate?

BRATTON: We did not. I will speak for myself that we have had a relatively peaceful two years in New York since that horrific murder of Detectives Liu and Ramos, that the communities did come together. We have been engaging in dialogue.

I have had close to 600 meetings since that murder with community leaders, community activists. And we have had a relative -- relatively long period of stability in New York City. We increased the training of our personnel. We're increasing our de-escalation techniques.

And it's been a time of healing. So, did we see it coming? No. But, in policing, that -- you always plan for the worst, hope for the best. Dallas was beyond anybody's ability to speculate about or even think about...

DICKERSON: Secretary...

BRATTON: ... the first time really in American history an attack of that scale.

We had that in New York in the 1970s, the Black Liberation Army basically killing several New York City police officers. But something like Dallas that -- who could have ever thought something like that would occur here in the United States?

DICKERSON: Secretary Johnson, you have talked about the balance between homeland security and American freedoms. Where do you think that balance is on the law enforcement front between enforcing the law and the freedoms of citizens?

JOHNSON: Well, excellent question, John.

I think that the balance is best struck when you have effective community policing, where the law enforcement officer, the peace officer is regarded as a friend in a lot of neighborhoods. We see a lot of that happening here in New York City. I have seen that in other cities as well.

We're not a police state. And the most effective way to strike that balance is when, as the commissioner said, the public and law enforcement is working together at protection, at community peace. And so I think that's the key. And that's something that, in these days, we need to dedicate ourselves toward.

DICKERSON: All right, Secretary Johnson, Commission Bratton, thank you both.

And we will be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DICKERSON: And we're back with the head of the NAACP, Cornell William Brooks.

Mr. Brooks, we have -- this morning, the words context, balanced -- President Obama said things aren't as bad as they were in the '60s in terms of race relations. Do you agree with that?

CORNELL WILLIAM BROOKS, PRESIDENT, NAACP: Well, there are many in this nation who are tempted to believe that the glass is half-full of despair and half-empty of hope.

What we might note and what we should note is the country is full of the capacity to effect change. We have thousands of young people, older activists in the streets of this country. They're in the streets of this country protesting and demonstrating because they believe profoundly that they can bring about an end to police misconduct.

That is an affirmation of who we are as our country. That is an affirmation of our capability as a country to bring about reform. It speaks to the character of our country and our fellow citizens. So, that's a good thing. That is to be celebrated.

So, racial relations have improved, but they are not where they should be, particularly when a young black man is 21 more times likely to lose his life at the hands of the police than his white counterparts.

And a young -- excuse me -- an unarmed African-American man is seven times more likely to lose his life at the hands of the police than his white counterparts. Clearly, we are not where we should be. We are better than we were. And because we are better than we were, have the conviction that we can be better still.

DICKERSON: Talk about the police. There are obviously some bad actors. And they are captured in these horrendous videos.

But everybody on both sides is saying don't paint the other with a broad brush. Help people understand how to talk about the changes you think need to be made in the police force, but then also respect these people who are brave and take risks and serve their community.

BROOKS: Sure.

So, we are at a moment in this country where have to be morally surgical. We have to be precise. So, in other words, we are understanding that what fuels racial profiling as a country is that African-Americans are seen as being -- black skin being a robe of -- I should say a cloak of suspicious, white skin being a robe of protection or respectability.

We have to get beyond presumptions, beyond stereotypes. And that also applies to police officers. There are police officers who have stepped forward. There are police officers who are supporting a reform in the ranks. We have to stand with them. In other words, those who honor their badges, who honor their oaths, we need to support.

But we need to be clear. This is a moment in this country that is one of urgency, where you have had -- where you had 509 people who have lost their lives at the hands of the police this year, 990 last year. We are at least 24 people ahead in this grim calculus.

We have got to address this problem, because we're at a moment where we know what to do. The president has issued his task force -- recommendations from his 21st Century Policing Task Force. The NAACP issued a report called "Born Suspect." We have police departments that know how to get it right. We just have to develop the will to get it right.

DICKERSON: What are the things? Give three things people need to know that need to change to improve the situation.

BROOKS: At the federal level, passing the End Racial Profiling Act, two, the Law Enforcement Trust and Integrity Act, at the state level, passing racial profiling laws, body cams laws, and dash-cam laws, and establishing civilian review boards.

The point being here is, we know what to do legislatively. We know what to do from a policy perspective. But, at the end of the day, John, to bring about the kind of change we need, we need to ensure that every demonstrator is a voter and that we show up en masse and in the millions at the polls in November, because we need to bring about reform at the state and municipal and at the federal level, and, of course, call upon our presidential candidates to take racial profiling seriously and address it in their party platforms and in their campaigns.

That, we have to do.

DICKERSON: All right, Cornell William -- Cornell William Brooks, thanks so much being with us.

BROOKS: Thank you. Thank you.

DICKERSON: And we will be right back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DICKERSON: Joining us now is Maryland Congressman Elijah Cummings, whose district was the scene of weeks of protests after, last year, Freddie Gray, a young black man, died while in police custody.

Congressman, thank you for joining us.

REP. ELIJAH CUMMINGS (D), MARYLAND: Good to be with you, John.

DICKERSON: Let's start with this.

What would you tell a young African-American 18-year-old man in your district who came to you and said, what does my future look like?

CUMMINGS: I would tell him that he's going to have a lot of barriers to get to where he has to go and -- but that he can make it.

And I would tell him to do everything in his power to get a good education, but I would also tell him to be careful in whatever he does.

DICKERSON: Does that mean be careful in interactions with the police?

CUMMINGS: No doubt about it.

And one of the sad things about what happened in Minnesota is that he was a man who was doing everything right, John. He said, look, I have got a gun. He was authorized to carry it. And the next thing you know, he's dead.

And I think that what has happened is that a lot of people don't understand what it's like for African-American men and boys to know that, at any moment, you're going to be pulled over, and that your life could end. And a lot of folks can't understand that.

DICKERSON: These videos are so powerful.

CUMMINGS: They're very powerful.

DICKERSON: And yet, in a political sense, you saw today the secretary of homeland security there with Commissioner Bratton sending a very clear signal, both in visual, but explicit terms, that he stands with the police, that the administration seems to be worried that the focus on improving policing has maybe gotten too a -- painted with too broad a brush on all of police.

CUMMINGS: Well, I think what happens is that people, when these kind of incidents happen in Dallas, and in Minnesota, in Baton Rouge, people automatically say, oh, we need to go into a corner.

And if I am for good policing and want the respect of police in the African-American community, they think that you're against police. But, on the other hand, they don't understand that there's pain when these things happen in the African-American community.

But, John, there's also pain by African-Americans when police are murdered, like they were in Dallas. And a lot of times, people don't -- they don't understand that. And all basically people are asking for is respect.

And, in Baltimore, I got to tell you -- you talked about since the disturbances. Kevin Davis, our police commissioner, now requires new recruits to go out three-and-a-half months once they get on the force, and they have -- all they do is go throughout the community policing, so they get an idea of who they are working with.

And it's -- we don't have time to turn against each other. We have to turn towards each other.

DICKERSON: Tell me about the aftermath of Baltimore. It was such a central part of the conversation. Where do things stand now? CUMMINGS: Well, we have had now four trials.

And we're in the fourth one now. And there was a hung jury. And then there were two not-guilty verdicts. We have got three trials, one going on now and two more.

And I think -- but you know what? People saw justice being carried out, and we did not have the loud protests. There were peaceful protests, but they were small. But people understood that justice was happening. And that was important to them.

In most of these cases, less than 2 percent of the cases are charges ever filed. And that's one of the things that people are concerned about, John. They see police doing things like they did in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and then say, well, the police -- there was a bad act, but are there consequences?

DICKERSON: Right.

Well, that's what I wonder about in Baltimore, that you had the hung jury and two acquittals. Some people would say, that's not consequences for Freddie Gray, who was -- you know, who died after being in custody.

CUMMINGS: Well, as I say to my constituents, they asked for justice, and justice is rolling.

And you cannot guarantee results with justice. You -- and so I think people -- I think one of the reasons why people have not gotten as upset is because they believe that justice is happening.

DICKERSON: President Obama said that -- in his press conference he said there were times when activists might have engaged in rhetoric that was overheated and occasionally counterproductive.

What is your feeling about that in terms of -- and what he is talking about here is rhetoric with respect to the police.

CUMMINGS: I think we have to be careful about whatever we say these days.

That goes from our leaders to people -- what people put on Facebook, because I think people do have a tendency to act on certain things. And I think we have to be very careful. And I think the rhetoric can get -- can speed up, and get loud, and then people react to that.

But you know what? We have to make sure that we understand that the community needs to police, and the police need the community. We're all in this, this boat, together.

DICKERSON: All right, Congressman Elijah Cummings, thank you so much for doing this.

CUMMINGS: Thank you.

DICKERSON: And we will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DICKERSON: Some of our CBS stations are leaving us now, but, for most of you, we will be back with a lot more FACE THE NATION.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DICKERSON: Welcome back to FACE THE NATION.

With us now is former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani.

Mr. Mayor, I want to ask you about something former speaker Newt Gingrich said, which is that he said, "white Americans can't understand the extra risk that comes with being black in America and that whites instinctively underestimate the danger of the black experience. What do you think about that?

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: I agree with that completely. I agree largely with the sentiments of Congressman Elijah Cummings. The reality is, we have to look differently at race in America if we're going to change this. We've been looking at it the same way for 20 years and -- and here's where we are. And we both have to try to understand each other.

First let me say, my deep sympathy for the people of Minnesota, the people of Louisiana, the people of Texas and of Dallas and I'd like them all to remember that though these incidents happened in different ways, they all share it together as Americans. And we -- we share this violence together as Americans. So -- so maybe whites have to look at it differently and blacks have to look at it differently. Whites have to realize that African-American men have a fear and boys have a fear of being confronted by the police because of some of these incidents. Some people may consider it rational. Some people may consider it irrational. But it's a reality. It -- it exists.

And there's a second reality in the -- in the black community. And the second reality in the black community is, there's too much violence in the black community. So a black will die 1 percent or less at the hands of the police and 99 percent of the hands of a civilian, most often another black. So if you want to protect black lives, then you've got to protect black lives, not just against police, which happens rarely, although with tremendous attention, and which happens every 14 hours in Chicago. Every 14 hours and we never hear from Black Lives Matter.

DICKERSON: Well, then --

GIULIANI: So -- so if you want to deal -- if you want to deal with this on the black side, you've got to teach your children to be respectful to the police and you've got to teach your children that the real danger to them is not the police, the real danger to them 99 out of 100 times, 9,900 out of 1,000 times are other black kids who are going to kill them. That's the way they're going to die. DICKERSON: So, Mr. Mayor --

GIULIANI: Now, on the -- on the white -- on the white side, we have to understand that whether we get it or not, there is this extraordinary fear of the police, and police have to be -- have to institute a policy of zero tolerance, like we did for crime in New York. Zero tolerance. No disrespect. Way back 14 year ago, Commissioner Howard Safir began a program in New York City called Courtesy, Professionalism and Respect. It was conditioned by -- it was continued by the next three police commissioners, including the one just had on now.

DICKERSON: So, Mr. Mayor, let me just ask you, you started out by saying that white Americans have to understand that this is happening in the black community, and then at the end you said, members of the black community have to teach their children to behave in front of the police. That -- those messages seem to conflict with one another.

GIULIANI: Of course they -- of course they don't. If I were a black father, and I was concerned with the safety of my child, really concerned about it and not in a politically activist sense, I would say, be very respectful of the police. Most of them are good. Some can be very bad. And just be very careful.

DICKERSON: And so what do police --

GIULIANI: I'd also say, be very careful of those kids in the neighborhood and don't get involved with them because, son, there's a 99 percent chance they're going to kill you, not the police. And we've got to hear that from the black community. And what we've got to hear from the black community is how and what they are doing among themselves about the crime problem in the black community. When -- when -- you know, when there are 60 shootings in Chicago over the 4th of July and 14 murders and Black Lives Matter is nonexistent, and then there's one police murder of very questionable circumstances and we hear from Black Lives Matter, we wonder, do black lives matter or only the very few black lives that are killed by white policeman --

DICKERSON: Mr. Mayor --

GIULIANI: But not all those black lives that are killed by other blacks?

DICKERSON: Do you --

GIULIANI: And on the -- on the black side, what they hear from us is constantly defending the police.

Now, I'll give you an example. I had a police officer who brutally attacked a gentlemen named Amadu Dialo (ph). That police officer is now sitting in jail for 25 years due to the work of my police commissioner, Howard Safir, and the prosecution of now Attorney General Loretta Lynch. I also had police officers who were wrongly accused and acquitted by a jury, even though mobs were calling for them to be put in jail despite the fact that a jury found them not guilty.

DICKERSON: Mr. --

GIULIANI: So these are complicated situations and we have to try to understand each other.

DICKERSON: Right.

The -- just a final question, sir. You said that the Black Lives Matter movement has put a targets on the back of police officers. When members of the African-American community see videos, as they have this week, they feel like there is a target on young black men. Explain your response about how they've put a target on -- on police officers, how that can match up when people see these videos.

GIULIANI: Well, when they talk about killing police officers.

DICKERSON: But they don't --

GIULIANI: When they sing -- well, they sure do. They sing rap songs about killing police officers and they talk about killing police officers and they yell it out at their rallies and the police officers hear it.

DICKERSON: But, Mr. Mayor -- but, Mr. Mayor, what -- what you seem to be doing is taking --

GIULIANI: And the reality is -- please -- please let me finish. And when -- and when you say black lives matter, that's inherently racist.

DICKERSON: Well, I think their argument would --

GIULIANI: Black lives matter. White lives matter. Asian lives matter. Hispanic lives matter. That's anti-American and it's racist.

DICKERSON: Well --

GIULIANI: Of course black lives matter, and they matter greatly, but when you focus in on one percent of less than 1 percent of the murder that's going on in America, and you make it a national thing and all of you in the media make it much bigger than the black kid who's getting killed in Chicago every 14 hours, you create a disproportion.

DICKERSON: All right.

GIULIANI: The police understand it and it puts a target on their back. Every cop in America will tell you that if you ask him.

DICKERSON: All right, Mayor Giuliani, thanks so much for being with us.

GIULIANI: Thank you.

DICKERSON: Joining us now for more discussion on blacks and policing, Sherrilyn Ifill, head of the NAACP Legal Defense And Education Fund, Terrence Cunningham, president of the International Association of the Chiefs of Police. We also welcome Wesley Lowery of "The Washington Post" to the broadcast and thank him for coming in at the last minute when DeRay McKesson was arrested. And finally, our justice and homeland security correspondent Jeff Pegues, who is not only covering the story for us but is working on a book due out next year called "Black and Blue: Aggressive Policing, Racial Tension and the Crisis in American Law Enforcement."

Chief Cunningham, I want to pick up where we left off with Rudy Giuliani. Do -- does every police officer feel like they have a target on their back?

TERRENCE CUNNINGHAM, INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF CHIEFS OF POLICE: Well, John, what I think it would say is that today this is probably the most -- arguably the most difficult time in American history to be a police officer. A couple of points. First of all, I mean, the police officers that are out there in the street today, they're worried about active shooters, they're worried about HVs (ph), they're clearly worried about the racial tensions that we see and the tensions are clearly palpable. But I think the point that's lost on a lot of people is the breakdown that we have in a lot of the social systems, from mental illness, untreated substance abuse, homelessness, joblessness, all gets laid at the feet of those police officers. So the officer out there today has to deal with those issues and they -- and then they still have to do their day jobs, which is responding to calls for service, particularly in the inner city, they're deal with gang violence, the rise in violent crime. And I do think that as Commissioner Bratton said, it's a very difficult time to be a police officer and -- and the mere fact that you're out there in uniform, I do think that there's a target on those officers' backs.

DICKERSON: Just to get clarity here, you're -- you named a number of things which are large societal, cultural things. And -- and what -- when you talk about being a target, it seems different than what Rudy Giuliani was just saying, which was that Black Lives Matters has put a target on those police officers.

CUNNINGHAM: I -- I -- I -- I wouldn't make that connection. I wouldn't say that it's Black Lives Matter that put a target on those police officers. I think that some of the rhetoric that -- that -- that we're hearing out there. And, unfortunately, I think, you know, people have really polarized this issue. If we really want to work towards solutions, we need to work together, though the IACP has been working a lot with the federal government. We've worked a lot with the White House.

This isn't new to us. We've been working on this for a long time. That -- that we -- we stood up a -- an institute for community police relations. In the fall of 2014 we had a summit on police relations. We had all the rival rights folks there. We had the NAACP, the ACLU. We had members of the community there. we had members of, you know, policing from around the country there to discuss those issues and then we published it -- actually a summit report that came out of that. So we're continuing to try and do that and I think just about every person that you -- you've heard on your show today, John, they talk about police training. I think that's what the IACP has done. We've tried to support that, whether it's -- whether it's fair and impartial policing. I mean it's -- that's your policing in a democratic society. I mean that's what we've tried to further.

DICKERSON: Sherrilyn Ifill, your response to Mayor Giuliani before.

SHERRILYN IFILL, NAACP LEGAL DEFENSE FUND: Well, I -- I hesitate to make my response all to Mayor Giuliani because, you know, part of what we're really confronted with today is the needs of 21st century policing and law enforcement. And Mayor Giuliani not only has a 20th century vision, but he actually presided over one of the most discredited areas and periods of policing in the city of New York, which is, in fact, responsible for a lot of the tension that exists between police officers and people in African-American communities.

The reason why it's so difficult, the reason it's so difficult for young African-American men, for all of us sitting here today, for police officers, is because of what has been revealed in the last two years. But what has been revealed in the last two years has been the reality in African-American communities for decades. It's very convenient to talk about black lives matter because people now know those three buzz words. I lead an organization that has been at this for 75 years and the -- my predecessor, you know, who founded the organization, Thurgood Marshall, dealt with the issue of violence of police officers against young African-Americans.

So this has now been revealed to the American public largely because of cell phone videos that have allowed people to actually see what's happened. And now we're in this period of tremendous tension when something has been revealed that was formally concealed. What can we do about it? Well, now we can't pretend that there's some golden age of trust between African-Americans and police that we want to return to.

If we're honest with ourselves, we're getting ready to do a new thing. We're creating a policing that never existed before. We're trying to create relationships that never exist before. We're trying to create trust where it never existed before. And what's required to do that is to take a fresh look at what it means to be a law enforcement officer in the 21st century. I means being able to open up communication to communities of color, not to lecture them about how they talk to their kids.

Parents of African-American men and boys are scared to death of their children's encounter with police and encounters with criminality. That happens every day. From every church pulpit every Sunday, that's what's talked about. In community meetings, that's what's talked about. So when I hear the stuff about, you know, black on black crime and -- that I heard Mayor Giuliani saying, come into our communities, something he has never been quite good at doing to be perfectly honest, be in our churches, listen to our conversations, attend our rallies when we talk about peace in our own communities.

DICKERSON: Wesley, let me ask you about DeRay. You've been in touch with his -- with those -- his friends. Give us an update on what's happening?

WESLEY LOWERY, "WASHINGTON POST": Of course. DeRay McKesson, the activist who's, you know, broadly linked to the protest movement, who's still in custody in Baton Rouge where he had been protesting and demonstrating in solidarity. As of a few moments ago, he's still in custody. There are rumors that perhaps he may be released by noon or by 1:00, but that had been 3:00 a.m., that had been 4:00 a.m. and that had been 7:00 a.m. and so who knows what will happen at noon.

You know, what we know from watching the video of the -- his arrest, as well as some of the context, was that him and a group of other activists were walking up the side of a -- essentially a highway on the shoulder and officers were saying, don't cross in the street, don't cross in the street. Based on the videos we've seen, it does not appear that he or anyone else had -- had crossed into the street, but kind of suddenly he was taken into custody by officers who arrested him. It's not unlike, you know, someone who's been on the ground covering many demonstrations in many cities. That's not something that -- that's not unique, necessarily. I've seen people picked up on the street that way many times, activists and otherwise.

DICKERSON: Chief, let me ask you a question just about this. You're not here to defend the Baton Rouge Police Department, of course, but give us a sense from your perspective how these things play out, because one of the things in talking to activists and police is that they have to find a way to accommodate these kinds of protests. They seemed to be doing that in Dallas before shots rang out. Is there a new model for how to handle these high-tension moments where you have a situation like what happened last night?

CUNNINGHAM: Now, first I think I would say that as long as any demonstration is peaceful, the police are going to be there to support that demonstration. When the -- when -- when it turns from peaceful demonstration to a riotous type of behavior, a, you know, a behavior where the crowd gets out of control, and then they have to change their tactics. But I think that I would point, John, as you said, right back to the Dallas Police Department. I think the Dallas Police Department did an incredible job that -- that night when they were there, they were protecting those -- those -- those demonstrators and those protesters' First Amendment right to assemble and to -- and to free speech.

People talk about this guardian versus warrior, you know, roles. I think that was a complete guardian role that they were in that evening. And then when you watch as those shots started to ring out and those officers started to drop, you saw officers running towards the gunfire to protect those protesters -- they had no idea they were the ones being targeted, the police were being targeted. And then you saw other officers actually putting themselves between the bullets and the protesters. They were human shields to protect those people. And I think that -- that that can't be lost on us. I mean that was a perfect example. And it didn't matter. I saw white officers, I saw black officers, Hispanic officers, males, females, it didn't matter who they were or what they were, they were there to protect those protesters. And I think that's what's important for people to know across this nation.

DICKERSON: All right. We're going to pause right there.

Jeff, I'm going to start with you when we come back about what solutions may be happening, who's doing it right and how much more we have to do.

But for the moment we'll take a break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DICKERSON: And we're back with more of our panel.

Jeff, I want to -- you've been out in the street. You've been reporting this story over time. What's the state of things and are there places where the relationships are getting better between the community and police?

JEFF PEGUES, CBS NEWS JUSTICE AND HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think there are -- are places, big cities, small cities, where relationships are improving. There has been an effort since Ferguson to increase community policing, increase the diversity of the police force. But there's still problems that remain. You know, John, we're coming up on two years from Ferguson and based on what I've seen going out into Chicago, and I was in Chicago without a camera just an iPhone recording what people are saying, interviewing people there over the Memorial Day weekend knowing that that would probably be a tough weekend for Chicagoans, and what I found is the underlying problem is still there. There remains this lack of trust. And -- and I don't know if -- if -- if you increase community police, that's not going to address the problem. And that's why we are where we are today.

DICKERSON: Why isn't it -- why isn't it going to address the problem? Because everybody, you hear them just say community policing, it's like body cameras. It's a word that gets thrown out and we don't really -- so get -- tell us why it's not working.

PEGUES: Well, we heard what Mayor Giuliani said. And I think that if you -- if you talk to people in the communities, and certainly if they hear what he just said, you know, as the mayor of Dallas said a couple of days ago, words matter. And I think based on what he was saying about black families, it shows that he has, and I'm sure some of the interviews if he were to go and talk to some of the people there, it just shows a lack of understanding what the root of the problem is. There is a history of mistrust between the black community and law enforcement. And that's at the root here. And two years out from Ferguson, that still has not been addressed. And so you're not going to get to the root of the problem until you address that issue and until people, like Rudy Giuliani, go to these communities, actually talk to the people who live there and get a sense for what they really feel and what's really at the root of the problem.

DICKERSON: Right. We -- we seem to be, what Newt Gingrich was -- was saying in -- in his quote.

Wesley, you -- you wrote about the Dallas Police Department.

LOWERY: Of course, I wrote about the Dallas Police Department, a piece in today's "Washington Post," about the effort -- the reform efforts there.

DICKERSON: Yes, why was it working in Dallas?

LOWERY: Well, and working is still relative. (INAUDIBLE) relatively low bar because what we know is that no police department has this perfectly and that we're still working to overcome a long history of these issue, right? But what had changed in part in Dallas was that things had been so bad. Dallas, in the late -- in the 1970s and 1980s was known as one of the worst departments in the country as it related to these shootings. Some very horrific shootings and killings that had happened in response. There had been some attacks at police officers as well. And over time you had both the election of black local officials, who started to come in, whether that be at the -- in the mayor's office, essentially who placed some black police chiefs in, including the current chief, district attorneys, judges. But they also saw a shift in some of the ethos requiring some level of accountability if and when an officer commits a crime -- or if and when an officer is involved in a shooting.

But one other thing I want to say is that, you know -- so I work on a team for "The Washington Post" that covers fatal police shootings full time, right? We've been studying this for two years. And I think that one of our inability to move forward with this conversation is largely based on our inability to grasp the facts of this. We often talk on rhetoric on -- on either side, but we don't grasp the facts, right?

For example, when Mayor Giuliani says that black men are almost never killed by police, it doesn't happen, well, that's just not true. So what we know is, "The Washington Post" data says that there have been 512 people who have been shot and killed by the police this year, in 2016. One hundred and twenty-three of them have been black. That is a dead black person almost every single day this year.

What we also know is while we love and respect our police officers and we don't want any of them to be killed, that they are not that often killed in the line of duty. They are killed once -- once a week an officer is killed, which is a tragedy once a week. Three times a day a police officer takes the life of an American citizen. And when we start to have this conversation about black on black crime and murder, we conflate two things --

DICKERSON: Right.

LOWERY: Because a criminal killing someone is not the same as the state, the government, a police officer killing someone.

DICKERSON: Sherrilyn.

IFILL: One of the reasons, John, that there's still the mistrust is because I think what the community is waiting for is two things. Number one, they understand that the rule of law applies to them. They break the law, they're going to be arrested. When there's that black on black crime, if they catch the so-called back on black crime and they catch the perpetrator, that perpetrator is going to be prosecuted and going to go to jail.

What they want to know is that when a police officer takes a life in a way that is unlawful, that that police officer will also face accountability and face the rule of law. And I think too often what we have seen is -- I mean right now we're in Baltimore in the middle of the trials. Some -- somebody's responsible for breaking the spine and the voice box of Freddie Gray who was in that van and thus far no one has been held responsible. So one piece is accountability.

The second piece is ownership of the problem. And ownership of the problem cannot simply fall on African-Americans. It's interesting that, you know, we were listening to Mayor Rudy Giuliani because he's one of the people who no matter police officer -- police officers did, always defend them. We see this with the spokespersons for police unions. We need -- that when something goes wrong, we want to hear from police officers. We take responsibility for the fact that something went wrong, that one of our people did something wrong, so that we can come together and talk in the same way we're asked to take responsibility when people in our community commit crimes.

DICKERSON: Chief Cunningham, the Burlington police chief said one of the worries cops have is, no cop can control what another cop does, but all cops will be judged by what the other cop does. Does this, when we see what happened in Louisiana and in Minnesota, talk a little bit about what that does to just normal police work for -- for cops who are just trying to do their job.

CUNNINGHAM: So first I would ask that people not rush to judgment on those two incidents because we haven't seen the full investigation yet. And, unfortunately, those videotapes that we see are just a snippet and a snapshot in time. So I'd wait for the investigation to come out.

I do think that this is a very difficult thing for the police to deal with. I would like to, John, just for one second, go back and talk about the collection of data in police shootings because I think that's really important. First of all, I think it's an embarrassment to our profession that we have to rely on the media to collect that data. The IACP, with all of our partners and stakeholders, have been working with the FBI to come up -- to develop a platform so that we can capture that data. That is our data. We shouldn't be afraid of it. We should be able to look at it. We should be able to aggregate it, take a deep cut into it and to see what it means, whether or not we need to change our training, whether or not we need to, you know, adapt our technologies and our equipment, whatever it may be. But it's an embarrassment that we don't have that data ourselves to deal with.

And I do think that there would -- with -- with these -- the shootings that we see out there, we need to hold our officers accountable. There's absolutely no question about it. And I think that it was Sherrilyn that just said, hey, you know, police administrators need to say, you know what, there are bad cops. I'm not -- I'm not talking about Louisiana and Minnesota, because I don't want to rush to judgment there yet, but there are bad cops and police administrators need to hold those people accountable.

DICKERSON: All right, Chief Cunningham, thank you very much.

We're going to have to leave it there. Thanks to all of you.

IFILL: Thank you, John.

DICKERSON: And we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DICKERSON: The debate and conversation about the vital issues at the heart of the week of violence in America, we bring our attention back to the seven lives lost and the families and communities that will never be the same again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ON SCREEN TEXT: Alton Sterling.

Philando Castile.

Lorne Ahrens.

Brent Thompson.

Michael Krol.

Michael J. Smith.

Patrick Zamarripa.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DICKERSON: That's it for us today. Thanks for watching. Until next week, where we'll be broadcasting from the floor of the Quicken Loans Arena in Cleveland, host of this year's Republican National Convention. For FACE THE NATION, I'm John Dickerson.