"Face the Nation" transcript for April 29: Gov. Barbour, Mayor Villaraigosa and Gov. Brown
(CBS News) Below is a rush transcript of "Face the Nation" on April 29, 2012, hosted by CBS News chief Washington correspondent Bob Schieffer. Guests include former Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour, Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa and California Governor Jerry Brown. A roundtable of terrorism experts include journalists Graham Allison and Peter Bergen, The Washington Post's David Ignatius and CBS News' John Miller. And CBS News' John Dickerson hosts a Google + Hangout on immigration.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Today on FACE THE NATION, are you ready for the campaign? You better be because the candidates have been all but chosen, and the race is on.
MITT ROMNEY: Hold on a little longer. A better America begins tonight.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, there may be some who disagree with that, but even Newt Gingrich conceded the Republican standard bearer will be Mitt Romney.
NEWT GINGRICH: I think, obviously, that I would be a better candidate. But the objective fact is the voters didn't think that.
BOB SCHIEFFER: So while Romney was wrapping up the Republican nomination, the Democrat's candidate was--well, it's easier to show than explain.
JIMMY FALLON: What is it?
PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: Jimmy, POTUS stands for President of the United States.
MAN (singing): He is the POTUS with the most-est.
(Crowd cheering)
PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: Let's keep the rates down on college loans.
JIMMY FALLON: Stop. The loan you save may be your own.
BOB SCHIEFFER: We'll talk politics with former Mississippi governor Haley Barbour, California Governor Jerry Brown, and Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, who is chairman of the Democratic National Convention.
This week's Google Hangout is about Hispanic voters.
And we'll mark the one-year anniversary of the death of Osama bin Laden. We'll get new details on how the United States tracked him down and whether his death has made us safer. We'll hear from two TIME Magazine contributors, Harvard Professor Graham Allison; and Peter Bergen, author of Manhunt.
And plus, Washington Post columnist David Ignatius, and our own CBS News senior correspondent John Miller.
JOE BIDEN: If you're looking for a bumper sticker to sum up how President Obama has handled what we inherited, it's pretty simple--Osama bin Laden is dead and General Motors is alive.
BOB SCHIEFFER: American politics and American safety in the age of terrorism on FACE THE NATION.
ANNOUNCER: From CBS News in Washington FACE THE NATION with Bob Schieffer.
BOB SCHIEFFER: And good morning, again. If the people on the Sunday show seem a little sleepy this morning, it is because this is the morning after the White House Correspondents' Dinner. Washington's version of the Oscars which comes complete with its own red carpet, crowded with stars of television, Hollywood, both the two-legged and four-legged kind, government, and journalism. The star is always whoever happens to be President, and last night was no exception.
PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: My fellow Americans, we gather during a historic anniversary. Last year at this time, in fact on this very weekend, we finally delivered justice to one of the world's most notorious individuals.
I know at this point many of you are expecting me to go after my likely opponent, Newt Gingrich. Newt, there's still time, man.
But I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to attack any of the Republican candidates. Take Mitt Romney. He and I-- he and I actually have a lot in common. We both think of our wives as our better halves. And polls show to a-- an alarming insulting extent, the American people agree.
We also both have degrees from Harvard. I've one. He has two. What a snob.
And just to set the record straight, I really do enjoy attending these dinners. In fact, I had a lot more material prepared, but I-- I have to get the Secret Service home in time for their new curfew.
BOB SCHIEFFER (laughing): And on to serious business this morning, and here to talk a little politics, the man who will be the chairman of the Democratic National Convention this summer, the mayor of Los Angeles and Tony Ovilla-- Villaraigosa, and the former Republican governor of Mississippi who is also the former chairman of the Republican Party, Haley Barbour.
Gentlemen, thanks to both of you for coming. Let me start with you, Governor Barbour. Governor Romney seems pretty confident when he sat down with Diane Sawyer last week and she asked him what message he had for the President. He said, "Start packing." And then the other night after he won some more primaries, he said, "A better America begins tonight." Is it time to start measuring curtains in the Oval Office yet?
HALEY BARBOUR (Former Mississippi Governor/Former Republican National Committee Chairman) (voice overlapping): No, but I think a lot--
BOB SCHIEFFER: It seems like a lot of-- lot of campaign ahead of us.
HALEY BARBOUR: Of course, we do. But I think a lot of people in the news media and a lot of others were surprised that after a not very flattering nomination contest for Republicans, the first Gallup poll, Romney's ahead. In your poll, it's a dead heat. In other polls, it's a dead heat. I think a lot of people expected that Romney would be like Reagan was in 1980 when as, you know, Reagan was about fourteen points at this point. I didn't expect Romney to be behind that far but the fact that it's a dead heat right now after the Republican nomination contest, which wasn't as helpful as we might have liked it to be.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Mister Mayor, do you think it's that close?
ANTONIO VILLARAIGOSA (D-Los Angeles Mayor/Democratic National Convention Chairman): I think the country is evenly divided. I think it's going to be a very close election, but if you look at Governor Romney's record, the only people that will be packing, looking back, where the companies that he bought put in debt, and then had employees go packing, and he made a profit. If that's what he's going to do with the economy, then we're all going to be packing. I think it's going to be a very close election. It's going to be tough. The country is evenly divided, but I think ultimately that President Obama will win. And he'll win because he's got a record of defending and fighting for the middle class. Because he's set on addressing the deficit, but doing it in a way that's responsible, two dollars and fifty cents of cuts for every dollar of revenue.
BOB SCHIEFFER: So how about you, Governor, do you think it's going to be close?
HALEY BARBOUR: Not if President Obama tries to run on his record. I-- I would love to think that that's what they're going to do is run on his record, because the results of his policies have been terrible. The economy grew 2.2 percent the last quarter, according to his administration. I mean, after the last deep recession, the ec-- the economy was growing five, six, seven percent. We were adding jobs by the hundreds of thousands. This has been the most peeked recovery, and it's because of his policies, telling employers he wants to hit them with the largest tax increase in American history. How does that make employers more likely to hire more people, which should be our first goal? Obamacare drives up the cost of health care, drives up the deficit. So, yeah, I hope that this is a referendum on the President's record, because if it is, that's the best it can be for Republicans.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Well this economy--
ANTONIO VILLARAIGOSA (overlapping): Of course--
BOB SCHIEFFER: Go ahead.
ANTONIO VILLARAIGOSA: Of course, if Governor Romney runs on his record, he ran on jobs. They were forty-seventh out of fifty when he left. He ran on reducing the debt. Per capita, Massachusettians were number one in the loaded debt that they had. He ran on reducing government. And he left his successor a billion dollars in debt. So we'll see what happens if Mister Romney runs on his record.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Let-- let me just ask you this, Mister Mayor, though, there are some Democrats who are disappointed, to say the least, with the President on immigration policy, for one thing, on gay rights, on-- on any number of things. Immigration, for example, is going to be a big issue it seems to me. What about that?
ANTONIO VILLARAIGOSA: I think it is going to be an issue. I-- I agree with Governor Barbour that the biggest issue is going to be the economy but it is going to be a big issue and if you look at the DREAM Act as an example, if we were to give these kids a pathway to citizenship, if they went to college or the military it would add 1.5 trillion dollars to the U.S. economy. I believe that there should be a pathway for citizenship. The President has said from the beginning that he supports a pathway to citizenship. Mister Romney on the other hand has called for the self-deportation of eleven million people. He said the DREAM Act would be a hand out and his campaign with Kris Kobach who authored the Arizona and the Alabama law. So I think on the issue of immigration that the President is more in tune with the mainstream of America.
BOB SCHIEFFER: What about that, Governor Barbour, because Hispanics make up eleven percent of-- of the voting population, and it seemed to me during the-- the primaries, the Republicans just almost tried to run Hispanic off-- Hispanics off at some point?
HALEY BARBOUR: Well, there's no question the Hispanic vote's a very important vote. And it's a very important vote in some states. Well, it's a very important vote. Nationally Republicans didn't do well in '08. But look, unemployment among Hispanics is higher than among others in the United States, particularly among young Latinos that are-- they are being hurt worse by the policies of this administration. And don't think that that doesn't enter heavily into their and their family's thinking. So many not employed at all. Their hopes were built up. And when you talk about the DREAM Act, I've been around here a long time. If you're serious about legislation, you don't wait to bring it up in a lame deck-- lame duck session, which is what they did with the DREAM Act. They never brought it up in the first two years that they had sixty Democrats in the Senate, huge majority in the House. They don't bring it up until after the 2010 election. I mean how serious is that? How serious is the President about the budget when his own tax commission that he appointed comes out with a report he's never mentioned it.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Let me-- let me just get back to the DREAM Act and let's just talk about that because Marco Rubio has now kind of come up with his version of the DREAM Act. Under the President's version, as I understand it--people who serve in the military, who go to college, who came into this country, whose parents brought them into this country, then they-- they can-- there's a path to citizenship. I guess Marco Rubio says his version is they would get a work permit and then they could-- could apply for citizenship. Could you support the DREAM Act that the President, as he outlines it, Governor Barbour's Republicans-- as a Republican?
HALEY BARBOUR: I-- I have to tell you, Bob, I'm not familiar with every detail.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Mm-Hm.
HALEY BARBOUR: But some of the concepts are clearly attractive. The fact that people come and serve in our military certainly ought to give them some status in the United States, whether it's that they have the right to stay and to work as long as they pay taxes, as long as they are--
BOB SCHIEFFER: Mm-Hm.
HALEY BARBOUR: --don't break the law, that maybe there should be a different path to citizenship.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Are you saying, though, that Governor Romney is going to have to move a little on this issue?
HALEY BARBOUR: Well, I'm-- I'm not saying anything for Governor Romney. What I am saying is--
BOB SCHIEFFER: You wish he would?
HALEY BARBOUR: --Hispanic votes are in play here because of the economy and because of other policies of this administration have been bad for Hispanics as well as everybody else. And we better go try to get those votes.
ANTONIO VILLARAIGOSA: I would support the President's version of the DREAM Act. I think that Senator Rubio's version of the DREAM Act would create a second-class status for folks, and I understand that Speaker Boehner said that he doesn't expect that that issue will be addressed in this Congress. But we should engage in-- in a conversation, and in a debate.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Do you think, Mister Mayor, that if Mitt Romney decided to put Senator Rubio from Florida on the ticket that that would make a difference?
ANTONIO VILLARAIGOSA: I haven't seen-- and-- and Governor Barbour knows a lot more about these elections than I do. But I-- I've rarely seen a vice presidential candidate do much to elect--
BOB SCHIEFFER: To help with Jack Kennedy, when he put Lyndon Johnson.
ANTONIO VILLARAIGOSA: Well, it-- it-- it might help. Like I said, rarely. It-- it might help you with a state. I don't expect that it-- it's going to win you an election or win you an entire demographic. This is going to be-- be fought out on the issues, and I think the President's better on the issues, but that remains to be seen.
BOB SCHIEFFER: What do you think, Governor?
HALEY BARBOUR: Well, again, I hope-- I hope this campaign is a campaign about policy and the results of the President's policies. Can a-- can a vice presidential candidate just change the whole deck? No, I don't think so. You're right. One of the theories of picking a running mate is like Kennedy and Johnson. Pick a running mate, it will give you a big state. You know, could-- could Romney find somebody give him Pennsylvania, give him Ohio, give him Michigan? Does he need somebody to give him Florida? Would he win it anyway? But the idea that you're going to reshuffle the deck would be very unusual in American history.
ANTONIO VILLARAIGOSA: See, we agree, Democrat and Republican.
BOB SCHIEFFER: It-- it may be the beginning of a new era right here. Gentlemen, thank you so much.
When we come back a man who has seen an election or two himself, California Governor Jerry Brown.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
BOB SCHIEFFER: And we're back now with the thirty-fourth governor of California who also happens to be the thirty-ninth governor of California, Jerry Brown, who in between time was also the California attorney general, and the mayor of Oakland. He also ran for President a couple of times in there, and someone I first interviewed back in 1979. Governor, a pleasure to see you.
GOVERNOR JERRY BROWN (D-California): My pleasure.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Welcome. I want to ask you something. How much has politics changed since you were first governor?
GOVERNOR JERRY BROWN: A hell of a lot. It's more polarized. The money is more centrally collected and distributed by the two major parties. There is particularly on the Republican side, there's an enforcement of discipline that's ideological and as was mentioned today in the Washington Post, takes on the quality of a cult. So we're in a much more adversarial environment. We've al-- always had it historically, but now it's ramped up several degrees as evidenced by the filibuster and holds on nominations, and a great power can't govern itself with this kind of dysfunction. It just won't work.
BOB SCHIEFFER: So do-- do you see a way out of it?
GOVERNOR JERRY BROWN: We need some kind of decisive election, some kind of breakdown, leading to a breakthrough and that's not quite evident on the horizon yet.
BOB SCHIEFFER: How do you-- we just heard Haley Barbour and the L.A. Mayor-- how do you see this presidential race shaping up?
GOVERNOR JERRY BROWN: I see it as a close election. I see it as unpredictable. If you ask me, there's no doubt I believe Obama should win, but between now and November, there's going to be a lot of back-and-forth. These big, secret Super PACs are going to just load the money in and it's going to be nasty, but I have to say this, I've never seen a-- a cooler, more reasoned, intelligent candidate, leader than Obama. This man under pressure shows a lot of grace and a lot of thoughtfulness, and that's going to serve him well because I've been in these races. And under pressure, you know, somebody can blow or make a mistake or say something stupid and that often is the race. So I'd say Obama has the-- has the strength to make it all the way, and I sure hope he does.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Will you be out campaigning for him?
GOVERNOR JERRY BROWN: Yeah, I will, although-- you know, in this world of national media, it's all on the President and on Romney's side. It's all-- mostly him, and then the money in these PACs that run around and-- and put the poison into the bloodstream of the body politic, but those two candidates, how they react, and how they set forth their vision for America. That's going to make the difference.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, now we should add that the Democrats have their own set of those PACs, too.
GOVERNOR JERRY BROWN: Yeah, they do.
BOB SCHIEFFER: This is not just something that Republicans are doing. You heard Haley Barbour and-- and Mayor Villaraigosa talking about Marco Rubio. Do you see that helping? Would that help Mitt Romney in California, for example, which right now I would guess is looking pretty good for Barack Obama.
GOVERNOR JERRY BROWN: I-- I don't think Romney can win California. I don't think it would hurt. I think it would show a little diversity on the part of a party that is pretty monolithic. But the fact is the-- the Republicans just recently-- that it wasn't that true a few years ago, but they're so hostile to millions and millions of people that are in this country, and while they can't vote, they have millions and millions of-- of-- of people who they're related to or who identify with them, and you just can't ignore twelve million people, particularly, when they're picking our food, they're working in the hotels and the restaurants, and now they're increasingly in very important jobs. So I think the Republicans have to move out of that-- that-- that reactionary cul-de-sac that some of the more extreme members are pushing them.
BOB SCHIEFFER: What do you think-- we kind of know who the key demographic groups are going to be. It is going to be Hispanics, eleven percent of the population; it is going to be women, who are more than half the electorate now. We-- we know that it is going to be independents. Barack Obama won a lot of them the last time out. He doesn't seem to be doing as well with independent voters. Now what do you think the election will turn on? Will it be in the end the economy?
GOVERNOR JERRY BROWN: I think it turns on if one of the candidates screws up first and makes a mistake. That's always how elections tend to move on-- on the other person making the mistake. Secondly, I think it-- it comes down to who do the-- who do the American people have the most confidence in? And generally incumbent has-- has an advantage. Not a big advantage, but in these close elections, I-- I think the fact that he's in power gives him an advantage, and then Romney's going to try to use the fact that there's a lot of discontent. People aren't very happy at the way things are going, and it's-- it's obvious because we're recovering very slowly, not because of-- of Mister Obama it's-- the fact is the mortgage meltdown was a financial recession, and the historic data shows this-- they take much longer to recover from. And that breakdown was due in large part because of the lack of regulation, not too much government but too little on Wall Street.
BOB SCHIEFFER: You know, you-- you've been around for a while.
GOVERNOR JERRY BROWN: Al-- almost as long as you.
BOB SCHIEFFER: That's exactly right. I may have you by a year or so. But I-- I am just wondering, as you look back over your career, and your career is still very much in progress, what advice do you have for politicians? What-- what-- what do you think you've learned in-- in these years you spent in public life?
GOVERNOR JERRY BROWN: Well, I've learned you don't get things done overnight. It does take time. Things that I was talking about thirty years ago, pension reform, renewable energy, completing the California water plan, high speed rail, they're right at the top of the agenda today. So, what do I say? Hey, you're going to take thirty years to get it done because you can't get it over it-- done overnight. You can't get it in a term. But we're into instant gratification, get it done. If you don't do it in two years, you're a failure. Life doesn't work that way, at least from the point of view of somebody in their seventy-fourth year. It looks like things take longer, and now I'm-- I'm kind of glad they do because they still have something to do.
BOB SCHIEFFER: What was the hardest, being mayor of Oakland or being governor of California?
GOVERNOR JERRY BROWN: Governor is more difficult. It's more removed. It's more abstract. You're dealing with bills. As mayor you're dealing-- you're dealing with cops and criminals and development. I like to say condos, cops, criminals, you want to the make the streets safer and you want to get people to live and make the city, you know, bloom and-- and prosper. So mayor is a hands-on thing. You're walking down the same streets, the same corners, the same high schools. You see them day after day. Governor, you're-- you're in the capitol, but the capitol really isn't anywhere. The state is so big that it's a very different experience than the hands-on, immediate encounter that a mayor has.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Going to run for reelection?
GOVERNOR JERRY BROWN: I'm thinking about it.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Are you?
GOVERNOR JERRY BROWN: I am thinking about it. But now-- I have got enough right now to keep me busy for another couple of years--
BOB SCHIEFFER: All right.
GOVERNOR JERRY BROWN: --but I wouldn't rule it out.
BOB SCHIEFFER: All right. Well, Governor, it's a pleasure to have you.
GOVERNOR JERRY BROWN: Thank you.
BOB SCHIEFFER: In a moment we're going to back-- come back with some thoughts about my first Jerry Brown interview.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
BOB SCHIEFFER: Today's commentary is more of an indulgence than a comment, really. But when we invited Governor Jerry Brown to be on FACE THE NATION, I could not help but think back to a morning in 1979 when California's young governor was thinking of challenging a sitting President for the Democratic nomination. A kid with a lot of almost red hair sat down with the governor on a log in the hills above Sacramento and talked about why he would want to do that.
BOB SCHIEFFER (video recording): Well, let me ask you, what-- what's your assessment of the-- the first-- first half of the Carter presidency as-- as you kind of put it there? Do you think the President has been a good manager as he said he was going to be during the campaign?
GOVERNOR JERRY BROWN (video recording): Well, I don't think Presidents function as managers. They should function as a leader. We don't think of Churchill or de Gaulle or Roosevelt as managers of the White House or of the government, but rather as strong individuals who stand clearly for a particular vision about their countries and can set themes and priorities, and inspire people to follow their leadership. And in those terms, obviously, we've seen over the last few years, drift, confusion, and a good deal of lack of confidence.
BOB SCHIEFFER: I still like Jerry Brown's concept of what the presidency ought to be but Jimmy Carter got the nomination. Later, of course, he lost the presidency to Ronald Reagan. My one disappointment that day was that Bachelor Brown was linked romantically to singer Linda Ronstadt in those days and I had hoped to meet her. Well, as the interview concluded, I realized someone had been eavesdropping behind a tree, but when I went to investigate, she disappeared into the woods, and we never found out who it was.
Back in a minute.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
BOB SCHIEFFER: Some of our stations are leaving us now, but for most of you, we will be back with page two and a discussion about the death of Osama bin Laden and our Google Hangout. New details on all of that.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
BOB SCHIEFFER: And welcome back now to page two. We are back with two Time Magazine contributors, Graham Allison and Peter Bergen, who are responsible for Time's cover story this week about the hunt for Osama bin Laden and they have some new details. Mister Bergen also has a brand new book coming out Tuesday called Manhunt: The Ten-Year Search For bin Laden from 9/11 to Abbottabad. David Ignatius of the Washington Post joins us this morning from Santa Barbara, and our own CBS News correspondent John Miller is with us, who usually on weekdays is with CBS THIS MORNING, but he's up early on a Sunday for a change. John actually was the last person, the last American, I believe, to interview bin Laden in 1998 back when he was with ABC.
Graham Allison, I want to start with you because, you know, we're hearing the administration and everybody is talking about how they-- they got Osama bin Laden, and they certainly did, but it turns out that there were some of the President's most senior advisors who didn't want to do this, and-- and tell us how you found out that and-- and tell us the details.
GRAHAM ALLISON (Time Magazine Contributor/Harvard University): Well, it's-- it's an amazing story, and it's one-- one twist and turn is more amazing than the next. At the last meeting when President Obama went around the room, the Vice President Biden said, don't do it. So if Biden had been President, Osama bin Laden would be alive today. Gates, the most experienced member of the national-- in national security decision making, somebody who had seen Carter make decisions, Bush 41, Reagan, Bush 43, his Secretary of Defense, he would not have chosen the option. Even his chief-- the-- the military person who was most directly involved, Hoss Cartwright who's the vice-chairman of the JCS, would have chosen a different option. So, as Gates said, he's seen a lot of Presidents make difficult decisions. This was one of the toughest calls he's seen.
BOB SCHIEFFER: I-- I never asked a reporter to-- to reveal their sources, but how did you find this out?
GRAHAM ALLISON: Well, most of these people are folks I know professionally for, you know, a long career and I've talked to--
BOB SCHIEFFER: Mm-Hm.
GRAHAM ALLISON: --and so I've been doing a case study of this, like my old case study, the CUBAN Missile Crisis, basically fascinated by the national security decision process, and the very hard calls that this required. There's a temptation to think of this as a no-brainer. You get Osama bin Laden in your crosshairs, of course, you go. But hunters know the most important question when are you thinking about a target is when to pull the trigger. If you shoot too soon, you know, the turkey may get away.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Yeah.
GRAHAM ALLISON: If you wait too long, he may hear you and he may escape. So this was a case where for five months after there was a plausible, I mean, actually after CIA thought they had this guy in the crosshairs, the process deliberated. They get to the point where the President thought he had a high confidence that this was the right target in his crosshairs and he took careful aim before firing.
BOB SCHIEFFER: You-- you make a point in your piece in TIME that this was one time when-- when the government worked, it actually worked.
Peter Bergen, I want to ask you, your book comes out Tuesday. You've been looking at this-- Graham concentrated mostly on the decision making toward the end. You've been looking at this for a long time. What did you find out that you find most significant?
PETER BERGEN (Author, Manhunt): Well, it's getting to the-- getting to the question of the President's decision for a minute. Michael Morell, the deputy director of the CIA in-- around December, the-- before the May raid, told the President that the circumstantial case that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction was better than the circumstantial case of bin Laden was in Abbottabad. That's a pretty amazing comment.
BOB SCHIEFFER: (INDISTINCT)
PETER BERGEN: And President Obama asked Morell and others, why is it that so many people have different percentages about the possibility that bin Laden is there, and Morell says something along the lines that a lot of this is about your experience. The people hunting bin Laden have a higher degree. The people who spent years doing this, have a highest degree of certitude. The people who are involved in the WMD problem in Iraq tend to have a lower degree of certitude. But as Graham said, you know, when your two most senior advisers and your second-most senior military adviser are both sort of advising you to do something pretty different, it is an amazing decision that he made. I also reported on the ground in-- in Abbottabad was able to get inside bin Laden's compound.
BOB SCHIEFFER: You also inside interviewed Osama bin Laden at one time, did you not?
PETER BERGEN: Yeah. Two of-- two out of three of us here have done that.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Yeah.
PETER BERGEN: And, you know, it was interesting to go inside the-- the room where bin Laden was killed. I kind of expected it would be like going inside Hitler's bunker. It didn't really feel like that. It was more like visiting a suburban-- a squalid suburban compound. He had a tiny little toilet which he had to squat over, a tiny little kitchen. He was not living large. He was surrounded by his kids. It was a kind of comfortable but confining retirement. He obviously spent nearly six years there. And, you know, he was surrounded by, you know, a lot of his-- his wives and-- and his kids. It was-- he was saying, he was trying to retain control of his organization. I was given access to some of the declassified--
BOB SCHIEFFER: Mm-Hm.
PETER BERGEN: --documents that explained what he was trying to do. And some of it was delusional, but some of it was still-- he was still trying to stay in charge, what remained of the rest-- the rest of his organization.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Let's go out to Santa Barbara. David Ignatius, you also got a look at some documents that were not widely distributed. People are feeling pretty good about that but how do you feel about it? Has-- has the death of Osama bin Laden really changed things very much?
DAVID IGNATIUS (Washington Post): Well, I-- I have two things, Bob. One is that al Qaeda burned itself out. They-- it was a-- an organization that even bin Laden himself before he was killed understand had failed in its aims of violent jihad. If you read these documents you find that bin Laden was deeply upset by mistakes that his affiliates have made in killing too many Muslims to the point that in one document he ruminates about rebranding the organization, dropping the name al Qaeda altogether. So he knew before he died the extent of that military failure. In terms of ideas, as I traveled the Arab world and-- and-- and-- and read about what's happened there in this amazing year of uprising and awakening, I'm struck by how many of the people who've risen owe their Muslim ideology to people who-- who bin Laden himself looked to. They're some of the same roots. So you-- you see Muslim Brotherhood leaders or Salafist leaders rising into prominent positions in Egypt, possibly in Syria, if-- if-- if Bashar al-Assad is overthrown. Certainly in the future in Libya. So bin Laden's violent dreams of jihad probably died with him. But the idea of purifying the Muslim world of west-- Western influence, of-- of getting so what he called apostate leaders like Hosni Mubarak in Egypt out of their jobs. That's actually happened.
BOB SCHIEFFER: John Miller, you were I guess, the last American to interview Osama bin Laden. Let me just ask you about one thing. Newsweek Magazine is reporting this morning that the U.S. government was laying the groundwork to issue sealed indictments against members of the Pakistani government or anyone else they believed that had helped bin Laden but that no smoking gun was found, and the indictments were-- and never returned. Have you found since then-- and I know you were in the government at the-- at the point this was happening, is there any evidence that Pakistanis were involved?
JOHN MILLER (CBS News Senior Correspondent): Well, I-- I think that the theory of, you know, preparing indictments or laying the groundwork to prepare indictments is-- is a bit of a stretch. I mean, when you have something that maybe less than a hundred people in the entire U.S. government had any inkling of-- and the people had any actual understanding of it was, you know, kind of in the-- in the below twenty number, the idea that they would be presenting evidence to a grand jury of twenty-three people about this, the whole process would have been pretty much a waste of paper. But to get to your question which is did they know? After the fact, we had very little indication that anybody in the Pakistani government was any less surprised about Osama bin Laden being in Abbottabad than-- than anybody else who heard-- heard the story. They seem to be genuinely shocked. A lot of work was done after that to kind of figure out from an intelligence perspective of who knew what and when and there's no indication that at a high level any deal was made or that there was any awareness that-- that I saw.
GRAHAM ALLISON: Bob, I think this is the most amazing-- I mean, this-- the whole-- this whole thing, every twist and turn it's sort of more amazing than the last one. But I would say the most amazing thing about this is there's only two possibilities. Either Kayani and Pasha, the head of the ISI, the leadership of Pakistani military knew that a guy had been living in their country for eight years, had been in a house for six years, had five wives, had children in the hospital, so everybody has imagined, of course they had to know. Or the other hypothesis is they didn't know.
Now, which of these is more frightening? In the first case, you-- at least you know who you're dealing with. This-- they're complicit. That would be the normal expectation. I can't think of anybody who has actually integrated in their head the-- a picture of Pakistani leadership, in which they could not know. It just seems inconceivable.
PETER BERGEN: Although there is--
GRAHAM ALLISON: But on the other hand, all of the evidence seized in the raid, which was a huge amount of evidence, and all the rest of the intelligence has been combed through carefully, looked in for leads for guys to go get after. So there's been a lot of cleanup after this.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Mm-Hm.
GRAHAM ALLISON: No evidence whatever of people complicit. So then you at least have to entertain the second hypothesis--
BOB SCHIEFFER: What do you think?
GRAHAM ALLISON: --that they didn't know and that they didn't know it's even more frightening.
JOHN MILLER: Interesting middle ground, though, which is-- there's been some suggestion that they had some awareness that there might be a wife or wives there, that there's part of a tacit deal that we'll just keep that on the side, never imagining, by the way, that Osama bin Laden himself would be there, because why would he be in such a high-risk place as Abbottabad? And the-- the deal was tacitly if we don't mention that, then, you know, al Qaeda and the main doesn't attack Pakistan.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Peter, what do you think?
PETER BERGEN (Author, Manhunt, TIME Magazine Contributor): There's no evidence that anybody in the Pakistani government knew. Bin Laden was a very paranoid and disciplined person. There were people living in that compound who didn't know bin Laden was living there, some of the wives of the couriers. So, by the way, it took ten years and half trillion dollars for the United States to find bin Laden, not for a lack of trying. They weren't aware that he was living in Abbottabd until, you know, August of 2010. So-- and also, by the way, bin Laden had tried to kill President Musharraf on two occasions in December of 2003, so there was no love lost between the Pakistani state and bin Laden.
BOB SCHIEFFER: There is another nugget in your story, Graham, that was really fascinating, and-- fascinating-- and that is how did they keep this raid a secret for so long?
GRAHAM ALLISON: Well, Tom Donelan's good one-liner is the only way to keep a secret in Washington is don't tell anybody. And I think the-- the fact, I mean, I would say amongst--
BOB SCHIEFFER: I mean they really held this very close.
GRAHAM ALLISON: Until twenty-four hours before the operation, the majority of the members of the National Security Council were in the dark. So this was held extremely tightly. Six people in the White House right through till almost the end. And I think that-- it reminds us that sometimes secrets matter. If this had leaked, and had been appeared in a blog or appeared in the press, Osama bin Laden would have vanished. I mean, if I had been involved as an adviser in the process, I would have said, "We got to shoot sooner. You can't wait over this long period of time to be sure you've got the right guy in the crosshairs and to make sure you aim and practice before you fire." But they did. And I think it suggests something about a cool discipline that was a little-- little surprising too.
BOB SCHIEFFER: I-- I just want to go around, and I'll start with David on this one. David, are we safer today because Osama bin Laden is dead?
DAVID IGNATIUS: Yes. I think wit-- without question, as near as I can tell from the documents I have looked at. Till the day he died, he was looking for ways to kill Americans, looking for ways to get al Qaeda operatives into the United States. He was instructing people to train in aviation, meaning that he looked for a reprise of the September 11 attacks. He specifically-- this may have been fantasy, as Peter suggested earlier, but he specifically wanted to target our President, Barack Obama. He also wanted to kill General Petraeus. So in terms of-- of killing Americans, he wanted to do it. The fact that he's gone and that his core al Qaeda leadership is-- is so-- so badly battered, I think does make us safer. The person who is now in charge seems much more comfortable than bin Laden was in these peripheral fights in Muslim countries where a lot of Muslims gets-- get killed. That's what bin Laden--
BOB SCHIEFFER: And that is Zawahiri--
GRAHAM ALLISON: --didn't like.
BOB SCHIEFFER: --who is running things--
PETER BERGEN: Zawahiri.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Zawahiri.
DAVID IGNATIUS: Doctor Ayman al-Zawa-- Zawahiri. He's an Egyptian doctor, and he's been with the movement for a long time. He has tried to insert himself in the struggle. He's had a video message in February, Onward, Lions of Syria to the Syrian opposition. There's not a lot of evidence that the Syrian opposition sees him as its-- as its leader, although there are some al Qaeda members who were involved in-- in operations--
BOB SCHIEFFER: Yeah.
DAVID IGNATIUS: --against Bashar al-Assad. But on your-- on your basic question, President made a tough decision. He's going to argue, and he's right, that Americans are safer because of that.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Peter, what do you-- what's your thought?
PETER BERGEN: Yeah, you know, seventeen Americans have been killed in the United States by al Qaeda or people influenced by its ideas since 9/11. More Americans die in their bathtubs by significant amounts accidentally drowning. We don't have an irrational fear of accidental bathtub drownings. About three hundred Americans die every year in-- in that manner. The death of bin Laden-- you know, this process, well, I think was happening long before the death of bin Laden, before the Arab Spring. They were losing the war of ideas in the Muslim world. They were killing a lot of Muslim civilians. David has indicated, that even bin Laden understood that that was a problem for them. So, you know, we're-- we're-- we're relatively much, much, much, much safer.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Quickly, Graham.
GRAHAM ALLISON: Yes, they took off the head of the snake. But I think the big (INDISTINCT) is that in-- we live now in an era in which other people can do this. So while al Qaeda is at the point of strategic defeat, the idea that the U.S. is not vulnerable to major attacks in the future is, unfortunately, wrong. And then we will be as long as we can see.
BOB SCHIEFFER: John, I will let you be clean up.
JOHN MILLER: I think, you know, that al Qaeda figured out something important which was the messenger is actually more important than the message. You had Anwar al-awlaki putting his videos out on YouTube, the democratization of television. So, frankly, now we've got the tail wagging the dog, which is they're reaching the masses and we are seeing through the homegrown extremists it might not be al Qaeda's front office but the message is getting out and we do see those plots every year against the U.S. soil.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, gentlemen, thank you very much. I learned a lot here.
We'll be back with highlights from our FACE THE NATION Google Hangout. That's next.
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BOB SCHIEFFER: CBS News political director John Dickerson hosted our latest FACE THE NATION Google Hangout on the role of Hispanic voters in campaign 2012. And our participants had some interesting things to say. Here's a look.
JOHN DICKERSON: Help us define, first, what we're talking about with Hispanics.
JULIO RICARDO VARELA (Founder, LatinoRebels.com): I think we should be thinking about Hispanics, Latinos--whatever you want to call us--as American voters. We live in both worlds. So I identify myself as a Puerto Rican but I also identify myself as a, you know, Bostonian in the United States.
JENNIFER SEVILLA KORN (Executive director, Hispanic Leadership Network): What we need to recognize is that Hispanics are not a monolithic group. I think that mantra needs to be shouted across the country. And when you're talking to Latinos this year, you know, we're disproportionately have higher unemployment, and so that's what we need to focus on those issues.
JOHN DICKERSON: Why does the President do-- do so well among Hispanic voters?
GABRIELA DOMENZAIN (Obama Campaign Director of Hispanic Media): The President is-- is working to strengthen the middle class. He's working to build an economy in which hard work and responsibility pays off. And-- and to build an America in which we're not divided, in which we're united. And-- and Mitt Romney, you know, has that he-- he vetoed the DREAM Act. He's calling for all undocumented immigrants to self-deport. Hispanics know that the President is on their side. They know that he's fighting for comprehensive immigration reform, it's for the DREAM Act, and-- and that's why we're seeing so much support for-- for our candidate.
BETTINA INCLAN (RNC Director of Hispanic Outreach): I don't think they were ready to start. There was so much misinformation in what she just said. This President has hurt-- has hurt the Hispanic community in so many ways. He made so many promises from not saying that he would pass immigration reform in his first year. Three years later we still don't have a proposal. He had super majorities in both chambers of commerce, and-- and didn't even give a proposal. To the economy, Hispanics have been hurt the most by this economy. The principles and the policies of President Barack Obama have devastated Hispanic households. And what we have seen is one after another of these promises made to Latinos all across this country have been broken by this President.
ESAI MORALES (Co-Founder, National Hispanic Foundation for the Arts): We call that hispandering, I think that's the latest word. I didn't make it up, but I-- I-- I agree with it. The problem is that, you know, with Romney, he says his grandparents or his father was born in Mexico. I'm surprised I'm not seeing him, you know, in a photo op-- outside of a taco stand, you know, it just feels like the Presidents will (INDISTINCT) espanol as a way to like say, hey, I-- I'm down with la Raza. But, you know, I'm in the middle on this one, okay.
JOHN DICKERSON: Yeah.
ESAI MORALES: I was-- I was looking forward to a lot more immigration reform from-- from our current President. I-- I supported him.
JOHN DICKERSON: What advice would you give President Obama?
ESAI MORALES: You know remember what you promised us. I would just say be true to yourself, because every time you don't, you give the opposition a lot of ammunition to say, you know, where is that change that was promised?
FRANK SHARRY (Executive Director, America's Voice): I'm one of those Democrats who has been deeply disappointed in Obama during his first term. I think the criticism of that, you know, he hasn't been that into immigrants has been true.
ESAI MORALES: Are you saying he's just not that into you?
FRANK SHARRY: Exactly, exactly. But-- but on the other hand, you know, he's not that into immigrants, but the other guy wants to drive them all out of the country.
JENNIFER SEVILLA KORN: Well, I'm not sure about that, Frank, because this President has the highest rate of deportations of any President in the history of the United States and he also has not addressed immigration. We tried to work with this President and I was with Frank at that-- the first two years of President Obama's because I didn't care if it was a Republican or Democrat. We have an immigration system that is broken, and I don't care who passes it. And he absolutely was not committed to it.
JOHN DICKERSON: If Marco Rubio were to join Governor Romney on the ticket, I want some sense of you from either if it will help a great deal with Hispanic voters, it won't help at all, or it will be a wash.
FRANK SHARRY: I think it helps in Florida. It wouldn't help much with other Latinos. I think he's already calculated that Romney's going to lose in 2012, that Romney's going to lose the Latino vote big, and what-- what Marco Rubio is doing is getting ready for the day after the election for the next four years to try to repair the Republican brand.
BOB SCHIEFFER: See the full Google Hangout on the FACE THE NATION Google Plus page.
And we'll be right back.
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BOB SCHIEFFER: Finally, it was twenty years ago today that some of the worst riots in American history broke out in Los Angeles. Before they were over, fifty-five people would die, more than twenty-three hundred would be hurt.
MAN: And there's no police presence down here.
BOB SCHIEFFER: And a billion dollars in damage would be recorded. That is our FACE THE NATION Flashback.
It would take the police, U.S. Marines, the Army, and the National Guard to finally restore order. The riots broke out after a jury acquitted a group of Los Angeles police officers who had been caught on video tape beating a speeding driver named Rodney King after a high-speed chase. Some of the officers were later convicted in federal court, and King won a multi-million-dollar civil lawsuit but was in and out of trouble with the law for many years.
DARYL GATES: We were simply overwhelmed.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Even so the case would have a lasting impact on race relations and police procedure.
WOMAN (911 Call): Nine one one, do you need police, fire, or medical?
BOB SCHIEFFER: When the Trayvon Martin case came to public attention this year, King said the screams on those tapes reminded him of his own.
Today's FACE THE NATION Flashback.
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BOB SCHIEFFER: And that's it for us today. We want to thank you for being with us, and we'll see you next week right here on FACE THE NATION. See you then.
ANNOUNCER: This broadcast was produced by CBS News which is solely responsible for the selection of today's guests and topics. It originated in Washington, DC.