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"Face the Nation" transcript: April 8, 2012

(CBS News) Below is a rush transcript of "Face the Nation" on April 8, 2012, hosted by CBS News chief Washington correspondent Bob Schieffer. The guests are Cardinal Timothy Dolan of the Catholic Church. The roundtable featured Richard Land, the president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Ethics and Religious Ethnic Commission; Luis Cortes Junior, president of Esperanza, the largest faith-based evangelical network in the United States; Rabbi David Wolpe of Sinai Temple in Los Angeles; Sally Quinn, founder and head of The Washington Post on Faith website; and Newsweek magazine's Andrew Sullivan who recently wrote that magazine's cover story, "Christianity in crisis."

BOB SCHIEFFER: Today on FACE THE NATION, word has reached us that the legendary Mike Wallace has died overnight, we will hear from his friend and colleague Morley Safer.

Then, we'll turn to religion and politics on this Passover and Easter week.

Is religion playing a bigger role in this year's campaign than usual? Archbishop Timothy Dolan of New York says, no, and speaks out on the President's intention to cover contraceptive costs in his health care plan, even for Catholics.

So, are you good with that?

CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN (Archbishop of New York): No.

BOB SCHIEFFER: And what about the candidate's religions?

CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN: There may be reasons not to vote for ritt-- Mitt Romney as President of the United States that he's Mormon cannot be one of them.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Then, we will turn to our panel, Richard Land of the Southern Baptist Convention.

RICHARD LAND (Southern Baptist Convention): Let's stop the hypocrisy of one party being welded to one-- the religious left-- the-- the religious left is the Democratic Party at prayer.

ANDREW SULLIVAN (Newsweek): Oh, please.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Andrew Sullivan of Newsweek; Rabbi David Wolpe of Temple Sinai in Los Angeles; Sally Quinn of the Washington Post; and Luis Cortes, Junior, of Esperanza.

And our new feature, the Google Plus Hangout.


ANNOUNCER: From CBS News in Washington, FACE THE NATION with Bob Schieffer.

BOB SCHIEFFER: And good morning again. Welcome to FACE THE NATION.

We are beginning this morning with the news that Mike Wallace died overnight. Mike was ninety-three. He had been ill for many years. His colleague and his friend, Morley Safer, put together this tribute.

MIKE WALLACE (recording): He was doing what.

With you.





When you brought it down to low (indistinct).

You demanded special treatment.

You needed money.

It's almost an embarrassment, Sir, to hear this from you.


What did they want you to do?

Why are you so reluctant?

MORLEY SAFER: For half a century, he took on corrupt politicians, scam artists and bureaucratic bumblers.

MIKE WALLACE: Come on out.

MAN #1: No, just-- just--

MIKE WALLACE: You don't want to talk to me?

MORLEY SAFER: His visits preceded by the four dreaded words, Mike Wallace is here.

MIKE WALLACE: I don't understand. They must be ashamed of something.

How're you, Sir?

MAN #2: What is this?


MAN #2: Wow.

MIKE WALLACE: I mean, you're a crook.

DANNY FARIES: Doggone I wish they didn't say that, though.

MIKE WALLACE: Father, I want to read you some things.

MORLEY SAFER: Mike took to heart the old reporter's pledge to comfort the afflicted and inflict the comfortable.

STANLEY RADER: You're contemptible. I mean, it's not going to (indistinct) I would like you get out of here.

MIKE WALLACE: I am nosy and in-- and insistent.

MORLEY SAFER: So insistent there were very few 20th Century icons who did not submit to a Mike Wallace interview. He lectured Vladimir Putin, the President of Russia, on corruption.

MIKE WALLACE: To get anything done, money.

MORLEY SAFER: He lectured Yasser Arafat on violence.

MIKE WALLACE: Mister Chairman, there are Palestinians who would like to kill you?

MORLEY SAFER: He asked the Ayatollah Khomeini if he was crazy?

MIKE WALLACE: And he calls you, Imam, forgive me, his words, not mine, a "lunatic."

MORLEY SAFER: He traveled with Martin Luther King.

DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING (1966): A large segment of white society is more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity.

MIKE WALLACE: He remains my hero.


MORLEY SAFER: He grappled with Louis Farrakhan.

LOUIS FARRAKHAN: I think you should keep quiet.

MORLEY SAFER: And he interviewed Malcolm X shortly before his assassination.

MALCOLM X: I probably am a dead man already.

RONALD REAGAN: I came here with a belief.

MORLEY SAFER: He was no stranger to the White House--interviewing his friends, The Reagans.

MIKE WALLACE: Why hasn't this job weighed as heavily on you as it has on some other occupants of this Oval Office?

RONALD REAGAN: Well, Mike, I don't know what the answer to that would-- would be. Well, maybe none of them had a Nancy.

MORLEY SAFER: There he was with John Kennedy, with Lyndon Johnson.

MIKE WALLACE: So you think that next time around.

MORLEY SAFER: With Jimmy Carter, even with Eleanor Roosevelt.

MIKE WALLACE: A good many people hated your husband. They even hated you.

ELEANOR ROOSEVELT: Oh, yes. A great many do still.

MAN: Make a noise.

MORLEY SAFER: Plus, all those remarkable characters.

MAN: Come on, Mike.

MORLEY SAFER: Leonard Bernstein, Johnny Carson, Luciano Paparazzi, Janis Joplin, Tina Turner, Salvador Dally, Barbra Streisand.

MIKE WALLACE: You would love to control this piece.

BARBRA STREISAND: Absolutely, are you kidding.

MAN: What are you trying to prove?

MAN: Nothing.

MORLEY SAFER: His "take no prisoners" style became so famous he even spoofed it with comedian Jack Benny.

(Excerpt from a spoof with Jack Benny)

MORLEY SAFER: It is hard to believe, but when Mike was born in 1918, there wasn't even a radio in most American homes, much less TV.

MIKE WALLACE: Yeah, I was a pretty good kid, you know, I was-- I was-- I was an overachiever and I worked very hard, played a hell of a fiddle.

MORLEY SAFER: At the University of Michigan where his parents hoped he would become a doctor or lawyer he got hooked instead on radio. And by 1941, Mike was the announcer on "The Green Hornet."

MIKE WALLACE: My family didn't know what to make of it, an announcer?

MORLEY SAFER: And soon the hardest working announcer in broadcasting.

MIKE WALLACE: Hello, I am Mike Wallace with real news.

MORLEY SAFER: When television arrived in the 1950s, Mike was everywhere--variety shows, game shows, dramas, commercials.

(Excerpt from an ad)

MORLEY SAFER: But there was an interview show called "Night Beat," first broadcast in 1956, that Mike remembers fit him like custom-made brass knuckles.

MIKE WALLACE: What do you know about that? Who in the United States is qualified? What kind of people are your friends?

We decided let's ask the irreverent, the abrasive, the-- who gives a damn question.

MORLEY SAFER: Some like labor leader Mike Quill had never been spoken to that way.

MIKE WALLACE: Well, I'm simply asking a question.

MIKE QUILL: I am ready anytime you want to repeat the stupid question.

MORLEY SAFER: Neither had mobster Mickey Cowan.

MIKE WALLACE: You have killed at least one man or how many more.

MORLEY SAFER: So when 60 MINUTES was born in 1968, Mike brought with him his "Night Beat" persona and contributed forty years worth of nosiness, impertinence, and, of course, drama.

MIKE WALLACE: Now wait just a moment. Hold it a minute, goddamn it.

MORLEY SAFER: Mike loved to mix it up, with producers, editors, even his fellow correspondents.

MIKE WALLACE: I mean we were colleagues and competitors at the same time. When I wanted to do a story and you wanted to do a story, and it's the same story.

MORLEY SAFER: And I come to the office the next day, you're out of town doing the story.

But beneath the confident, even cocky exterior, Mike had his demons. Three times over the years, he was treated for severe depression, and revealed to me a few years back that he once tried to end it all with an overdose of sleeping pills.

Did you try to commit suicide at one point?

MIKE WALLACE: I have never said this before. Yeah, I tried.

MORLEY SAFER: There are those who think that, thanks to his wife Mary, Mike mellowed a bit in recent years. But as the specter of retirement bore down, Mike fought it with customary defiance.

Do you feel it's time to maybe pack it in and reflect or--

MIKE WALLACE: Reflect about what? Give me a break. Reflect. What am I going to reflect about?

MORLEY SAFER: It was sixty-five years for Mike's first appearance on camera--a World War II film for the Navy-- to his last television appearance.

Do you think that people are going to believe you?

A 60 MINUTES interview with Roger Clemens, the baseball star tried to fight off accusations of steroid use.

MIKE WALLACE: And never anabolic steroids?


MORLEY SAFER: Sixty-five years. It is strange but for such a tough guy Mike's all-time favorite interview was the one with another legend, pianist Vladimir Horowitz. So for the umpteenth time we dust off the footage of the two of them, forces of nature both, sly, manic, egos rampant--for Mike, a red, white, and blue kind of guy, Horowitz played "The Stars and Stripes Forever." It almost brought tears to the toughest guy on television.

MIKE WALLACE: Astonishing what you learn and feel and see along the way. That's why a reporter's job, as you know, is such a joy.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Morley Safer talking about his friend Mike Wallace, and there will never be another one quite like him. He died last night about eight o'clock at a care center in New haven, Connecticut, where he has lived in recent years. His family was with him. Mike was a great friend and a mentor to me. He even gave me a compliment once and he was one of the real pioneers in television journalism and we are all going to miss him.

We will be back with our interview with the archbishop of New York, Cardinal Anthony Dolan in a minute.


BOB SCHIEFFER: As we were planning our broadcast this morning on religion and politics in America, one of the first people we went to was the Cardinal Timothy Dolan, the archbishop of New York. As you are going to see, it was a lively conversation.

CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN (Archbishop of New York): Blessed Easter and a happy Passover.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Let me just start with this. How would you define the state of religion in America today?

CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN: Good. I-- I think religion is vibrant. It's growing, the stats show us, as you can imagine, I'm particularly attentive to what the data shows us about the catholic faith in the United States. The numbers are up, the commitment of the people is strong, that doesn't mean, Bob, that we don't have a lot of problems, we do, and-- and we bishops, as any other pastor have to treat those problems realistically. So we do have people leaving, we do have people disenchanted but in general it's good news.

BOB SCHIEFFER: How would you rate the state of the Catholic Church right now? You have been through some really tough times with some of the recent scandals.

CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN: We have, we have. But, yeah, we have. The last ten, twelve years have been very tough for the Catholic Church. With the eyes of faith, though, we always know the-- the difficulties can purify us and strengthen us and we're seeing that. For instance, we got a slight increase in-- in vocations to the priesthood and the young men coming in will say, you know, it's really the tough times, it's really the scandals that almost inspired my vocation, because I saw the need for virtuous, hardworking priests in a Catholic Church that's reinvigorated and I want to be part of that renewal, so good-- God can always bring good out of bad, and I think that's what we're seeing in the church.

BOB SCHIEFFER: I want to talk a little politics with you, your eminence back in 1960.

CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN: I'm not surprised.

BOB SCHIEFFER: When John Kennedy became the first Catholic President, he made a speech during the campaign, because he said flatly, he wanted people to know and he wanted to assure them that he thought there was a separation between church and state. Here is the way he put it.


JOHN F. KENNEDY (September 12, 1960): I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute; where no Catholic prelate would tell the President, should he be Catholic, how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Now people in both parties have referred back to that over the years as-- as a good definition of church and state, but during this campaign year, one of the Republican candidates, Rick Santorum, said this about it.

RICK SANTORUM (November 11, 2011): If I had the opportunity to read the speech, I almost threw up. He should read the speech. It's-- in my opinion it was the beginning of the secular movement of politicians to separate their faith from the public square. And he threw faith under the bus in that speech.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Your eminence, where do you think the line should be between church and state? Is there, should there be a separation?

CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN: You bet there should. You bet there should. That's good, that separation between church and state is good, not only for the United States, it's also good for the church. I'd find myself and give me a second to explain this, Bob, I'd find myself, believe it or not, agreeing with both of them. I would cheered what John Kennedy said, he was right, and I would-- I would find myself among those applauding that speech. That having been said, I would also say that Senator Santorum had a good point because, unfortunately, what John Kennedy said in September of 1960 to the Baptist Ministerial Alliance in Texas has been misinterpreted to mean that a separation of church and state also means a cleavage a wall between one's faith and one's political decisions, between one's-- one's moral focus and between one-- the way one might act in the political sphere. I don't think John Kennedy meant that and as you know recent scholarship has shown that John Kennedy was very inspired by vision, by character, by virtue, let's call that faith, let's call that morals. So I don't think John Kennedy meant a cleavage between faith and politics. He did mean a wall between state and church, and I would applaud that one, but I would agree with Senator Santorum that unfortunately that has been misrepresented to mean that faith has no place in the public square. That, I would, with Senator Santorum say is a misinterpretation not only what Senator Kennedy meant but with what the American genius is all about.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Do you think there is too much religion in politics today?

CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN: No, I don't think so at all. I think-- I think politics, just like business, just like education, just like art, just like culture, only benefits when-- when-- when religion, when morals, when faith has a place there. I think the American-- the public square in the United States is always enriched whenever people approach it, when they're inspired by their-- their deepest held convictions. And on the other hand, Bob, I think the public square is impoverished when people might be coerced to put a piece of duct tape over their mouth, keeping them from bringing their deepest held convictions to the-- to the conversation.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, there was certainly no duct tape on-- on-- on your mouth when the President came out and let it be known that his health care plan included Catholic institutions having to buy birth control pills for their employees at church-- in churches and in schools and in hospitals. I want to ask you about that because I interviewed the vice president last week and he told me that it all had been resolved. Here-- here is what he said.

JOE BIDEN: On the substance, the President ended up exactly where he intended, where he began. Which was that, one, every woman in America should be able to have insurance coverage for birth control if she so chooses and that the Catholic Church and other churches should not have to pay for it or provide it. That's exactly where we are now.

BOB SCHIEFFER: For the record is that what you advised the President?

JOE BIDEN: Yes. But that's also where the President was in the front end.

BOB SCHIEFFER: So I guess that question I'd ask you, Your Eminence, are you good with that?

CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN: No, although I appreciate very much the Vice President. He has been helpful and I-- I-- I have benefitted from his counsel and I look forward to talking to him again. So I am glad he weighed in on it but I would disagree with him. It hasn't helped us much, Bob, because-- because we still have to pay for it, because most of us are self-insured and we are still worried not just about our institutions but also the individuals. So we still find ourselves in a very tough spot, and we're still going to continue to express what we believe is just not a religious point of view but a constitutional point of view that America's at her best when the government doesn't force a citizen or a group of citizens in a religious creed to violate their deepest held moral convictions.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Do you agree with what the vice president seemed to be saying that this-- that the President really didn't change his position?

CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN: Yes, I-- I think so. Although I am a little confused, because the President told me his convict--- his position, his conviction is that the government would do nothing to impede religion. And he-- he was very gracious, and especially complimenting the Catholic family in the United States in their work for health care charity and education. And he'd say I don't want this administration to do anything to-- to impede that. It's tough for me to see how the strangling HHS Regulations do anything but that.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Let me ask you this: Do you ever worry that sometimes-- do you like to be careful about getting too involved in politics? I know since the--


BOB SCHIEFFER: --new Pew poll out that says sixty percent of Catholics say that churches and other houses of worship should just totally steer clear of politics.

CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN: Yeah. I do worry about that, Bob. And this-- this is a good place for me to-- to remind everybody, we didn't ask for this fight, I don't enjoy it at all, I wish I was on here FACE THE NATION answering other questions and you probably do, too. We didn't ask for the fight but we're not going to back away from it. What I'd say is this: Yeah, I don't think religion should be too involved in politics but I also don't think the government and politics should be overly involved in the church, and that's our problem here. You've got a dramatic, radical intrusion of a government bureaucracy into the internal life of the church that bothers me. So hear me say, hey, I'd like to back away from this, I got other things to worry about and bigger fish to fry than this. Our problem is the government is intruding into the-- into the life of faith and in-- in the church that they shouldn't be doing. That's-- that's our-- our read on this.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Your Eminence, this is bound to come up in the campaign. Do you think Catholics would have a problem with a Mormon President because Mitt Romney is a Roman-- is a Mormon?

CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN: No. I don't. I hope-- I hope not. No, we have been through that a couple of months ago, Bob. Abe Foxman at the Jewish Anti-Defamation League was kind enough to invite me to address their-- their annual meeting and I was honored too and he said, tell us a couple of ways that maybe the Jewish community and the Catholic community could cooperate better in the United States. And I brought this issue up. I said, listen, everybody, we Catholics and we Jews have felt the sting of the other side, and now one of the ways we can cooperate is-- is to see that religious prejudice, religious bigotry doesn't enter the campaign. I said there-- there may be reasons not to vote for Mitt Romney as President of the United States that he is a Mormon cannot be one of them. And that the-- the Jewish community stood up and gave a standing ovation. I-- I think-- I don't think Catholics should have any problem voting for a Mormon at all.

BOB SCHIEFFER: One final question, what is your greatest challenge now as a Catholic leader?

CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN: Well, the greatest challenge is to-- is to-- in a way, it is the same as it was that first Easter Sunday morning, to try to show that God, religion, the church is on the side of life and light and freedom and hope. That is what-- that is the biggest challenge, that life giving, liberating, ennobling, uplifting message of-- of the Bible, of morality, of the church, of Jesus, that's-- that's our challenge, Bob, and in a world-- I mean you are on the frontlines, you got to report bad news all the time, most of the time we want to cry when we see the news, because there is so much darkness and tragedy and sadness, so the greatest challenge I got is try to preach the good news and try to show that the light and life and promise of The Gospel always trumps the bad news that we hear all the time. There is a great religious challenge.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Your Eminence, it is a pleasure to talk to you this morning.

CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN: Thank you, Bob, happy Easter-- happy Easter to you and our-- our audience today.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Thank you, Sir.

And we will be back in one minute with more on religion in America, stay with us.


BOB SCHIEFFER: When John Kennedy made that speech to the Baptist Convention in 1960 that we just talked about with Cardinal Dolan, that was not the end of it, the topic continued to generate controversy and a week before the election, Kennedy came on FACE THE NATION and talked about it some more. How even if America was overwhelmingly Catholic, he said, he would oppose making Catholicism the country's official state religion, as was the case in so many European countries. On this Easter Sunday, that is our FACE THE NATION flashback.

PRESIDENT JOHN FITZGERALD KENNEDY (recording): The Queen is the head of the Church of England as well as head of the state, or in some of the Scandinavian countries where the Lutheran Church is the official state church, but here in the United States, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Catholics, Jews, Presbyterians, Methodists, all of us happen to believe that we do not want an official state church. I would be opposed to it. If there were ninety-nine percent of the population were Catholics, I would still be opposed to it. I do not want civil power combined with religious power. Now, that's my view, and I don't-- some other view-- person holds a different view, or if some other Catholic in another country holds a different view, that's their right, but I want to make it clear that my-- I'm committed, as a matter of personal deep conviction, to this separation.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Kennedy went on to win that election, of course, but the conversation about the separation of church and state continues, and we will be talking about it some more on this Easter Sunday, with a panel of people who think about it a lot. Richard Land, the President of the Southern Baptist Convention's Ethics and Religious Ethnic Commission; Luis Cortes Junior, President of Esperanza, the largest faith-based evangelical network in the United States; Rabbi David Wolpe of Sinai Temple in Los Angeles and recently voted America's leading Pulpit Rabbi; Sally Quinn, founder and head of The Washington Post on Faith website; and Newsweek magazine's Andrew Sullivan who recently wrote that magazine's cover story, "Christianity in crisis." That's next. Stay with us.


BOB SCHIEFFER: Some of you are leaving us now. For those who're staying with us, we'll come back on page two with more on religion in America.


BOB SCHIEFFER: And we're back now with our panel. Well let's start with you, Doctor Land of the Southern Baptist Convention. You heard Cardinal Dolan talk about the separation of church and state. Do you think there should be and where is the line?

RICHARD LAND (Southern Baptist Convention): Oh, absolutely. And-- and Baptists, that's our unique contribution to the-- to the Reformation is separation of church and state. Roger Williams said for any-- any human being to coercively interfere with another human being's relationship with his or her God is soul rape and we believe that. We believe absolutely in the separation of church and state to protect the church from the state. Roger Williams said that there needed to be a wall of separation between the wilderness of the state and the garden of the church to protect the garden of the church from the intrusion of the state. And I think that's the thing that has changed since 1960, is that in 1960, the concern was whether there was going to be an established church. I don't think anyone is concerned about an established church today, but there are many of us who are concerned about government intrusion on the free exercise of faith by people in-- in-- who have religious convictions, who run contrary to what the government wants them to do. And separation of church and state are separation of two institutions. It never was intended to mean the separation of religiously informed morality from public policy. My personal hero, Martin Luther King Junior was a Baptist preacher, and he said he was in that Birmingham Jail because he refused to obey an unjust law and it was an unjust law because it didn't qualify-- it didn't coincide with the moral law of God.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Let me go to Rabbi Wolpe, what's your idea of the separation, Rabbi?

RABBI DAVID WOLPE (Sinai Temple, Los Angeles): Well, I think that it is true that Jews have a certain perspective on this as minority traditions do because generally, when religion seeps into the public sphere it's not our own, and so the separation of church and state in part is a protection for minority traditions. Having said that, I think that everybody has to understand that if you believe that the creator of the universe or the animating spirit of the universe or however you conceive of God, wants you to do a certain thing, you can't segregate that inside your soul from your public pronouncements and your beliefs. The key separation comes when you have to make public policy and then you have to make arguments that are acceptable to all different traditions and no tradition. So the real separation is not in your conscience or your pronouncements or your beliefs, it is in the arguments that you have to make that will be acceptable to everyone else, nobody is allowed to say, my faith is the trump card, and, therefore, in public policy you have to do what I say, because this is what I believe.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Luis Cortes, Reverend Cortes, where do you see the line?

REVEREND LUIS CORTES, JUNIOR (President, Esperanza): Well, I believe the line needs to be in-- in a space that allows people to take their faith and put it into public sphere, and it doesn't mean that you will oppress other people with it or enforce other people with it, but people will be allowed to share it. So my concern is, in following with-- with Richard and the Rabbi, is that more and more we are being told that don't-- we are being told not to bring our faith into the public sphere, as if-- as if it was-- is a disqualifier for public discourse, which it isn't and it shouldn't be. So-- so my concern is that every year, as time goes by; the rights of the religious are being eroded under the guise of church and state.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Andrew Sullivan, you wrote this piece in Newsweek, an extraordinary piece--

ANDREW SULLIVAN (Newsweek): Thank you.

BOB SCHIEFFER: --called "Crisis in Christianity." What did you take away from what you just heard the Cardinal say?

ANDREW SULLIVAN: Well, I-- I my view is very similar to what Rabbi Wolpe has said, which is that I-- I think our ability to be reasonable in politics and faithful in religion and to keep those two things separate has atrophied to the great disadvantage of-- of religion, and what has happened since 1960 is that organized groups like Southern Baptist Council and other religious groups have, in fact, become self-consciously political, they have become fused with one political party, the Republican Party, a party who is-- now has a majority and defined by a particular religious faith, evangelicalism or far right Catholic hierarchy, and that is making many people feel that faith and Jesus is about politics and power and partisanship, in ways it's turning off an entire generation. The biggest growth in any belief sector in this country in the last ten years has been atheism and the younger generations who see these religious people wielding political power, endorsing essentially political candidates, and fusing themselves with one political party, and picking fights deliberately the Cardinal prepared for this fight with Obama on political grounds. They see and I think they are mudding the real radical truth of Jesus, which is that we will gain power by giving it up, that we do not seek in the public sphere to have any power but to be powerless and Jesus was absolutely apolitical, anti-political, given the chance to be political. He is only on The Cross, because he refused politics.

BOB SCHIEFFER: I am going let Doctor Land respond to that in a minute but I want to get around the table first. Sally, you have been monitoring this with your own faith, the blog and a page in the Western Post. Sum up what we just heard here and what this is all about.

SALLY QUINN (The Washington Post): I think that separation of church and state is in the eye of the beholder. And I think if you look at not only what is going on in politics, you will get Cardinal Dolan to say one thing about his view of separation in church and state and-- and we have several different views at this table. We say we have separation of church and state, and yet on our coins it says "In God We Trust." The Pledge of Allegiance is one nation under God. We have-- we have ministers and pastors and Senate chaplain who say prayers in the Senate. The-- the academies and military academies are very religious and have prayer groups and-- and sometimes mandatory prayer groups. And so those are all not separation of church and state, and yet everyone accepts them. So I think that what I have seen in the last five years and what I see every single day is that who-- whatever your point of view, you might-- I mean there are plenty of people, I don't know whether you all think that we are a Christian nation or not, there are plenty of people who are religious who would say this is a Christian nation. Other people will say, as Obama does, this is a nation for all faiths and no faith, so I think that when you talk about separation of church and state, you are not talking about one thing, you are talking about a lot of different attitudes and opinions.

BOB SCHIEFFER: And we will continue this discussion when we come back.


BOB SCHIEFFER: And we're back now with more of our panel. Andrew Sullivan said a couple of things that you might want to respond to.

RICHARD LAND: Yes. First of all, I don't-- I don't think we're a Christian nation. To me the idea of a Christian nation is odd, as an evangelical Christian because a country can't be redeemed. I think we're a country that was founded on Judeo-Christian values in an attempt to meld those with enlightenment ideas of self-government. And we have a nation that is based upon Judeo-Christian values but it's not a Christian nation. It shouldn't be a Christian nation. And-- and concerning what Andrew said, you know, most of the involvement of evangelicals in the public realm has been defensive, it wasn't offensive. We didn't make abortion on demand legal in every state in the country and strike down these laws against abortion in all fifty states. We didn't seek to erode the expression of the public square by people of faith, and the Republican Party is not the only party that tries to claim God for themselves. I was at the National Prayer Breakfast when President Obama said that God was for universal health care, and was for his program, and Nancy Pelosi said Jesus supported her program in the-- in the House, and Bill Clinton mentions God and Jesus Christ more every year he was President than George W. Bush did any year he was President, and his references to God and Jesus went up three times during election years. So, please, let's stop the hypocrisy of one party being welded to one religious left-- the-- the religious left is the Democratic Party at prayer.

ANDREW SULLIVAN: Oh, please. First of all, my piece criticizes President Obama for precisely that thing. I am as opposed to the religious left using Jesus to advance that politics as I am opposed--

RICHARD LAND: But you didn't criticize (indistinct) program. You criticized religious rights--

ANDREW SULLIVAN: Well, because, in fact the religious right is infinitely more powerful and controls the Republican Party in the way religious left has nothing-- nothing like the power. And as you know, religious churches are key parts of political campaigns you can't win the South Carolina primary without churches actually running the Republican candidate.

RICHARD LAND: There's-- theirs is no--

ANDREW SULLIVAN: The fusion of evangelical religion--

RICHARD LAND: There's no-- there's no--

ANDREW SULLIVAN: --where Republicanism is real.

RICHARD LAND: The fuse-- any fusion between evangelicalism and Republicanism pales in comparison to the point of anemia compared to the black church of the Democratic Party.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Let me go to Rabbi Wolpe. Where do you weigh in on what you've just heard here, Rabbi?

RABBI DAVID WOLPE: Well, I think that it is important to understand that, first of all, you can't, as you hear, you can't leach religion out of the public discourse--you can't do it on the right and you can't do it on the left. And that also, obviously, the perspectives are going to be skewed by which side you favor, how you see God's place in it but without making a political judgment because I don't want to suggest that clergy or political experts, even though we are often pushed to be that. I'd say that it is legitimate for churches, synagogues, mosques to push an issue if not a candidate. That is there are certain issues that are going to strike at the heart of religious belief. If I get up in my synagogue and I don't speak about Israel, part of my task as a rabbi is, I mean, has been shirked, that is something that is critical to my community, it is critical to me, is close to the Jewish heart and should be spoken about even though it has clear political implications. So there are such fractured and divided lines in this, that I don't think these bright divisions are either-- either helpful or accurate. And no matter what political position you take, you will find that you have some religious allies in the position, part of the key, of course, is to stay away from candidates and-- and encouraging certain positions in elections.


RABBI DAVID WOLPE: But if you believe, if you believe, you believe things and if you believe things you want to see them enacted in the world.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Reverend Cortes, is there too much religion or not enough in politics?

REVEREND LUIS CORTES, JUNIOR: I think-- I think the question is not a valid, is not even a valid question. In a democracy everybody has a right to choose for themselves what will lead them, what will be their lead, whether it'd be religion, atheism, environment, whatever issue you want to be your lead or whatever issues inform you, whatever you want to organize under, you organize under. Now, some folks prefer that one group not organize in certain ways but that's just their preference. As a citizen, I have a right to do as I choose. And one of the conversations that we are having is, An-- Andrew stated that the right, the religious evangelicals are part of only one denomination, of-- of one of the Republic-- the Republican Party, and that is not true, not totally true, because we have folks, Hispanic people will probably not vote for Republican leadership this year over the issue of immigration. If Romney gets forty percent or thirty percent of the Hispanic evangelical vote, I'd be shocked, given what he has been doing and what he has been saying on the issue of immigration. Hispanic people are starting to look at the issue of the environment in a different way, Hispanic evangelicals. So-- so what Andrew is doing is he's focusing on a twenty- or thirty- or forty-year period and saying this is what religion in the public sphere is and what it should not be. But I think you really need to look at the broader range and look at the entire history of this country, were-- were black ministers wrong to lead the civil rights? Were black ministers wrong or African-American minister wrong to get on their pulpits and say don't vote for this individual because they are opposed to us. I don't think so. I think they have that right.

ANDREW SULLIVAN: They didn't say that. They did what Jesus did, which is they put Christianity in the public square by their personal example, just by living the life of Jesus. They ha-- marshaled a moral movement, they sought not to seek power, they wanted to show their powerlessness when they were attacked, they stayed nonviolent and that is how Jesus transforms the world, not by getting involved in political parties.

RICHARD LAND: Their major emphasis was on getting registered to vote on the right to vote. The right to vote empowered them so now the majority of sheriffs--

ANDREW SULLIVAN: But that was-- that was Lyndon--

RICHARD LAND: --in Alabama and Mississippi are African-American and they should be.

ANDREW SULLIVAN: But that was Lyndon Johnson's role to legislate not the churches'.

RICHARD LAND: Martin Luther King-- Martin Luther King Junior was marching for the right to register to vote, and the march was a right-- the Selma March was to vote. It was the right to register to vote, because they had been disenfranchised and the right to vote is power.

ANDREW SULLIVAN: But that-- that is not associating with one political party. It is-- then it's left to the parties.

RICHARD LAND: Of course that but it-- but it's about power and it's about Jesus commanded us to be salt and light and one of the ways you're salt and light is to seek to influence government. The abolitionists-- the abolitionist.

ANDREW SULLIVAN: Jesus never sought to control anyone and said to leave to Caesar what is Caesar's.

RICHARD LAND: And the render to God that which is God's--


RICHARD LAND: --which is also been authority.

ANDREW SULLIVAN: --which is no-- the religious--

RICHARD LAND: And Romans 13-- Romans 13 says God is supposed-- that the government is supposed to--

BOB SCHIEFFER: I want to tell you something.

RICHARD LAND: --(indistinct) which is right.

BOB SCHIEFFER: I've been with Sally Quinn many times over the years at dinner parties, at forums like this. This is the first time I can recall that Sally couldn't get a word in.

SALLY QUINN: Well, I think you--

BOB SCHIEFFER: What are you hearing here, Sally?

SALLY QUINN: --well, I-- I think you asked-- you asked Cardinal Dolan the right question and I think that's the question, is there too much religion in politics? And Michael Gerson wrote a piece about it in The Washington Post several weeks ago. And I think the answer is, yes, there is too much religion in politics, because it is-- it's merged into one thing now, and-- and-- and I agree with everyone, that if you are a person of faith, then you derive your morals and your values and your ethics from that faith. You can't separate that out, but what you can do is not use your religion as a-- as a way to influence politics and political issues. I think there is just-- what's happened is there is just an enormous amount of hypocrisy, not just on the right but on the left too, where people see that religion is an issue where they can get votes and so they play on it and-- and that's what I think is the-- the real problem here. Is that I think everybody ought to step back. I mean, you know, I think the expression WWJD--what would Jesus do--


SALLY QUINN: --is very apt here, as Andrew was pointing out, I don't think that if Jesus were running for office he would be up there, you know, waving the flag and saying I'm this and I'm that, vote for me because of this reason-- religion.

ANDREW SULLIVAN: He was asked to run for office and refused.

RICHARD LAND: He would run for office. He would run for office.

SALLY QUINN: Right. Exactly, okay. But what-- what I'm saying is that I-- I think that this is not-- this is not the way it should be, and that people of faith should not use their faith for cynical reasons.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Let me let the rabbi in on this too. Rabbi?

RABBI DAVID WOLPE: Thank you. I'm-- I'm not going to weigh in on what Jesus would do, but I think-- but I do want to-- I do want to say this, which is there's a certain sort of instant impression test that you can use with preachers. There are some people in the clergy who when you see them your first association is political that's a right wing preacher, that's a left wing preacher. That seems to me to suggest that the person is over-identified with political causes. Your first reaction should be this is person is preaching Christianity, Judaism, whatever the religion is, yes, they have certain political tendencies because it's extremely difficult to avoid in a world in which so much has been politicized. But if your first association with somebody is where they stand on the political spectrum, then that's-- that's a leakage of politics into the pulpit that seems to me unhealthy.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Let me ask Mister Land this, since we're talking about this, Rick Santorum, of course, brought the-- the social issues into this campaign. People are saying now that maybe he ought to get out of this race. I know you-- you talked to him. If he asked you, what would you tell him right now?

RICHARD LAND: Well, first of all, I disagree with you about Kennedy's speech. I've listened to Kennedy's speech ten times. I read it about thirty times and he doesn't understand what Kennedy was saying in the speech. Timothy Dolan had it right, he was-- he was saying that there should be a role but it shouldn't be an institutional role. Rick is a good friend, I-- I-- I like Rick a lot. He's-- he's-- you know, I saw a report that said that he's remarkably consistent over the years in his speeches. Well, that's because he's coming from a world view. That-- and his speeches come out of that world view. I think he's done a remarkable job on a shoestring budget. He has resurrected a-- a political career that was dormant, and as his friend, I would say to him, you know, you ought to seriously consider leaving the race now. In eight years he will be three years younger than Romney is now. But-- but, you know, running for President is a very personal decision, when to get out is a very personal decision, and he's going to have to make that.

BOB SCHIEFFER: All right. Well, you know, I could go on with this all Easter Day, but we've seemed to have run out of time here. Thank you all for a very fascinating but also to me a very enlightening discussion.

And we'll be back in a moment with a look at our Google Plus Hangout.


BOB SCHIEFFER: CBS News and Google have been embarked on a new partnership and we are going to be conducting Google Hangouts from time to time to connect people in every corner of the country to talk about topics related to Campaign 2012. We held our first one last week, and asked a group of internet savvy people how religion is getting along in this time of a communications revolution. Did we find out some interesting stuff? Here's the sample.

What is going on with religion these days in the age of the internet?

SARAH PULLIAM BAILEY (Online Editor, Christianity Today): I would say it's actually thriving. I think that especially evangelicals, Christians in general, take up forms of new technology and they run with it.

JASON ILLIAN ( Part of the thing we're talking about is not just connecting a congregation or a set of like-minded individuals one day a week but how do we do that seven days a week. So I think it kind of creates this shift from the mega church to what we call a giga church concept of staying connected to these mobile devices.

RABBI LAURA BAUM ( He knew that. So many Jews weren't walking into bricks and mortar institutions. So this was a way that we could really bring Judaism to people where they were.

BOBBY GRUNENEWALD ( We actually run ads on Google only when we have services that are going on but those ads that we run are for things that would not be typical, we're-- we're-- we're basically running ads on things like people that are searching for naked ladies in a way to connect with someone in the privacy of their home or business when that-- when their motives or their thought processes might not be all that pure. We're able to kind of help maybe provide what we feel like is a much better solution and a better answer.

RABBI ROBERT BARR ( People who may have sort of dropped out of the Jewish community or felt they were pushed out of the Jewish community have-- have happened upon us this is the beauty of social networking and-- and the viral nature of it.

BOB SCHIEFFER: Is it having any kind of an impact on our politics?

JASON ILLIAN: We're finding that-- that-- that faith in the Christian community does have quite a bit of impact on politics. The next generation, though, is less concerned about Republican versus Democrat. They are more willing to reach kind of across the aisle and try to say how do we enact change whether that comes through-- through the government, law or how do we just enact change outside of that? As Martin Luther used to say I would rather be governed by a wise Turk than a stupid Christian.

RABBI LAURA BAUM: And I think whether it's religion or politics that technology just allows it to be more democratic with a lower case "D." I mean it is far more participatory. It is allowing for conversations. People who used to not have a microphone now have one.

BOB SCHIEFFER: To watch the whole hangout, go to our FACE THE NATION page on Google Plus. I'll be right back with some final thoughts.


BOB SCHIEFFER: Finally today, although human kind has been haggling over the details for eons. To me all religions are basically true, at least the Western religions that I know about, and the truth they share is that love is more powerful than hate and that we will be happier if we treat others with fairness. I have no answers to the questions that humans have debated from the beginning if there is a God, why does he let bad things happen to good people, and where does evil come from? I've no idea. My answer to most religious assertions is, perhaps. Yet I am a believer, I've always thought, maybe felt is a better word, that there was something out there more powerful than we are, but so powerful it is beyond human comprehension. I think that when I see the beauty of a sunset or the pure innocence in a baby's smile or recognize the things we can't see--a mother's love or the strength that we can sometimes find deep within us when all seems lost. To me, those are the miracles, maybe they're not. But when I think of them in that way, it always gives me hope and makes me happier.

Thanks for watching. See you next week on FACE THE NATION.

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