Interview With ALF Cell Member

In researching our story 'Burning Rage' about environmental and animal-rights extremists, we attempted to reach out to active members of the Earth Liberation Front (ELF) and the Animal Liberation Front (ALF).

These people aren't easy to find. Members of these groups have been involved in illegal activities like arson, breaking and entering, and sabotage. "Eco-terrorists", as they are known, have been branded by the FBI as America's top domestic terrorist threat.

On September 30th, 2005, 60 Minutes producer Graham Messick received a telephone call from a man claiming to be an active member of an ALF cell. The voice at the other end was barely audible. The reason, the caller said, was because the call was being "re-routed" to prevent it from being traced.

The caller said he had heard we had interviewed Dr. Jerry Vlasak, a spokesperson for several radical animal rights groups, who has publicly advocated the assassination of researchers to slow down what he believes is the abuse of animals. The caller wanted us to know that the Animal Liberation Front was a non-violent organization, that targeted property, not people.

After some discussion, the caller said he would consider granting an on camera interview, the group's first in over 20 years according to him, if we could protect his anonymity. The man wanted to discuss this with other members of his ALF cell, and said he would call back in about a week.

We had no way to ascertain where the man was calling from or if he was who he claimed to be. In fact, throughout this process we have never learned any names, phone numbers, or any other personal information about these purported ALF members.

A week later, there was a second barely audible telephone call. The caller suggested we conduct an interview in a neutral place and mentioned Mexico. We discussed a possible interview in New York City. We told him he would need to provide details of an ALF action that only the perpetrators would know. The man said he would consider this, and would call back in another week. He didn't.

But on Tuesday, October 18th, the man called a third time. This time the voice was loud and clear. Traffic could be heard in the background, indicating to the producer that he was calling from a pay phone. The caller said "they" were in New York City and were ready to grant an interview. Right now. He also insisted that we not record his voice. Reluctantly, we agreed to film the interview, transcribe it on paper, and make no audio recording of the man's voice.

We agreed that correspondent Ed Bradley would be ready for an on-camera interview in a neutral location -- a place with no security cameras on the street -- between 7 p.m. and 9 p.m. that night, and that they could meet us there if they decided to go ahead. We had no way of knowing if they would show up, and no way of reaching them.

At 7:45 p.m., two masked men -- whose faces we never saw -- arrived. One man never talked. His job was to make absolutely sure we did not record any audio of the interview. The other man sat for the interview, which we filmed. The following interview transcript is taken from notes that were taken by producer Graham Messick and associate producer Michael Karzis:

ALF CELL LEADER: We're representative of an autonomous ALF cell, the animal liberation front… I can't sit here and be a voice for every ALF cell. But I can represent at least one cell.

BRADLEY: How many people are in your cell?

ALF CELL LEADER: It varies. I can't go into details.

BRADLEY: Do you know people in other cells?

ALF CELL LEADER: I can't go into that.

BRADLEY: Do the cells communicate with each other?

ALF CELL LEADER: Cells operate autonomously from each other and don't want to know the other people. I don't really want to know the people in other cells, and I don't want people in the other cells to know who's in my cell.

BRADLEY: So you can't make a direct contact between your cell and another cell?

ALF CELL LEADER: There's a one-way method of communication that's from the cell to the public only…. There's no reason to communicate with any other cell.

BRADLEY: Have you or anyone else in ALF ever given an interview before?

ALF CELL LEADER: The last interview given like this was in the 80's… There's never been an interview given like this before.

BRADLEY: So why do it now? Why take the risk of coming here and to talk to us on 60 Minutes.

ALF CELL LEADER: It's a big risk. Everything we do, we look at the benefits versus the adverse consequences. We don't believe there's an accurate representation of who [we are] and what we do.

BRADLEY: Who are you and what do you do?

ALF CELL LEADER: The ALF is an underground movement that engages in things ranging from economic sabotage… documenting animal abuse.... Part of the reason we do what we do is to show the public what goes on behind closed doors. If people could see what goes on behind those doors, they would be outraged…

BRADLEY: What goes on behind closed doors?

ALF CELL LEADER: We live in a society that is founded on exploitation of life, whether it's in a lab or a factory farm. Animals feel the same pain, the same emotions as you or I… I can't endure their suffering.

BRADLEY: Under that mask, who are you? If someone was to look at you, would seem to be an otherwise normal law abiding citizen?

ALF CELL LEADER: We're all normal people. We're just people who said enough is enough. I'm a normal person and I have a normal life… We just believe that to continue to turn our backs on what happens to animals is to be an accomplice to that exploitation and to be a part of it…

BRADLEY: Most people watching would say that most normal people don't burn down research labs.

ALF CELL LEADER: Most normal people would find it unacceptable to see animals have the skin burned off them while they're alive…to see primates that share the same DNA as humans, cut open while they are still alive day in and day out. I challenge anyone who sees this to go to a farm or a lab to see what happens. I challenge people to look at those videos. If you want to know why we do what we do it's as simple as watching those videos.

BRADLEY: Do your friends and families know anything about what you do?

ALF CELL LEADER: No idea. None whatsoever

BRADLEY: Then, how can you speak for the movement if you're just one cell in this movement and the cells don't communicate directly with each other?

ALF CELL LEADER: I'm not a spokesperson for the movement. I'm one person in the movement, one person expressing the movement. No one person can speak for the whole movement. I can speak for ALF in broad general terms. The ALF guidelines speak for themselves.

BRADLEY: Have you been involved in "direct actions?"

ALF CELL LEADER: I have. I won't go into specifics. I would like to go into specifics. But since we are America's number one domestic terrorist threat, it isn't worth it. I can speak generally, but I will provide proof of who I say I am.

BRADLEY: Generally, without naming specific events, what have you done?

ALF CELL LEADER: We've liberated animals in labs, from fur farms, breeders… destroyed property.

BRADLEY: Destruction of property? Arson?

ALF CELL LEADER: I can't be specific.

BRADLEY: How did you destroy property? Arson you wouldn't admit to?

ALF CELL LEADER: I can destroy property by throwing a brick. But telling somebody what I did, like an arson, what would I benefit from a sentence of 80 years behind bars?

BRADLEY: I'm just trying to get at what it is that you do? I mean… if you picket in front of somebody's house that's one thing. If you burn down a lab that's another thing.

ALF CELL LEADER: I can say that I support arson generally. We support arson. Extreme times call for extreme measures. We don't choose our methods. If picketing worked, I'd be first one out there. If writing letters worked then I'd be writing letters until my hand fell off. But it doesn't work… the status quo is exploitation of life.

BRADLEY: Do you consider arson "non-violent?"

ALF CELL LEADER: I don't look at it as being violent or non-violent. Many people think you cannot commit a violent act against a piece of property. The debate goes on and on. The question should be how violent is it to rip the skin off a mink's back, anally electrocuting a fox, that's violent. To equate destroying property with killing is something I don't understand.

BRADLEY: But why take the risk of going to prison?

ALF CELL LEADER: I think it's a risk worth taking. I've been to hell, and I've seen what goes on in those labs, and seen what happens to animals. After seeing that I cannot, not act.

BRADLEY: It's hard for some people to imagine, I mean people can imagine fighting for their freedom or even fighting for someone else's freedom but a lot of people can't understand fighting for the freedom of animals. I mean forever man has domesticated, killed animals for subsistence.

ALF CELL LEADER: We also know that some of the greatest thinkers of our time have refused to hurt animals. Some have chosen to hurt animals. Some chose to hurt, others, not. I chose not to hurt animals.

BRADLEY: But you could make the argument that raising animals, domesticating animals for your own survival is a natural state of things? Would you accept that argument?

ALF CELL LEADER: I don't accept that the commodification of life is natural. I don't accept that rampant heart disease is natural, the rates of asthma in the cities have gone up and that 13 year old girls are growing breast because of the hormones that are in their food. That is not natural…

BRADLEY: So in some places where people still live in what we would call a primitive society, you see tribesman into the water off their island homes with a spear and stand there looking for a fish and then kill that fish, and that's food for him and his family. That's not natural?

ALF CELL LEADER: I can't speak to what I don't know. At the same time there's a difference between eating to survive and commodifying life. There is a difference between commodification and surviving to live.

BRADLEY: And when you say commodifying what do you mean by that?

ALF CELL LEADER: I think it becomes a lot easier to exploit when you turn something into a commodity… when you objectify something it's easy to exploit. By commodification, we live in a society that discards life for money.

BRADLEY: Do you know Jerry Vlasak. You know who he is? Calls himself a spokesperson for the cause, for your cause. And he says it's time to start killing people who do research on animals?

ALF CELL LEADER: Well, we appreciate that he likes to consider himself a spokesperson, but he doesn't operate with our endorsement or our support or our appreciation, the support of the ALF. We have a strict code of non-violence. Not a single human being in the 20 to 30 year history has ever been harmed in an ALF action…. That's not luck, it's a pretty good record.

BRADLEY: I mean there are some cases, for example Daniel Andres San Diego is suspected of carrying out three bombings. One of which he set a bomb to go off an hour after the first bomb. Fortunately for the first responders, they spotted that second bomb and disarmed it. If they hadn't, they would have been hurt. I'd say that was lucky for them?

ALF CELL LEADER: I don't have much knowledge of specifics of the case.

BRADLEY: Does Dr. Vlasak speak for anyone the movement?

ALF CELL LEADER: I don't know who put Dr. Vlasak in the position he's in. It wasn't us, the ALF.

BRADLEY: He says that every social movement eventually resorts to violence. Would you agree with that?

ALF CELL LEADER: I think looking at history, many social movements have resorted to violence.

BRADLEY: And do you think that yours will resort to violence?

ALF CELL LEADER: As I said before, we don't choose the methods. We don't choose the weapons. We liberate life, destroy property. We have guidelines of non-violence.

BRADLEY: If you destroy my property, that's violence against me.

ALF CELL LEADER: Our intention is not to coerce, not to terrorize, not to threaten individuals. But I do believe that myself and the warriors I've worked with have saved countless lives… I've saved dogs and puppies that have lived their whole lives in a cage and released them to run around in a field and the dirt for the first time. If that's violent, then fine. If taking puppies out and letting them roam. And I believe every one of those lives has value. If that's violent, fine.

BRADLEY: What about Daniel Andreas San Diego, who is suspected of carrying out three bombings in California, and threatening people's lives. What do you think of his actions?

ALF CELL LEADER: [No answer.]

BRADLEY: But he [San Diego] set off a nail bomb, and he threatened to car-bomb or shoot the president of a big company that does tests on animals… Isn't that pretty much what Jerry Vlasak is advocating?

ALF CELL LEADER: I've never made [a] delineation between a bomb as being violent or a milk jug filled with kerosene as violent. I don't know what to say…. We have put the lives of a security guard above the lives of hundreds of animals. It's a judgment call, an ethical dilemma. We don't claim to have all the answers.

BRADLEY: You do see, from your perspective that the life of one man is worth more than the life of dozens of animals?

ALF CELL LEADER: I can't say that I cannot say one mans life has more value than hundreds of animals… because operating under ALF guidelines we never harmed life. A 30 year history of never harming a human being.

BRADLEY: Is there a place where you draw the line. I mean, is there a line between non-violence and violence?

ALF CELL LEADER: We don't throw bricks at people. We don't set people on fire, buildings when there are people inside. We don't assault people when we carry out actions.

BRADLEY: You say that violence against a building, destroying a building is not violence. So what I'm wondering is how do you get from non-violence to violence?

ALF CELL LEADER: If a human being is injured, it cannot be an ALF or ELF action. By virtue of the guidelines, it's not an ALF action.

BRADLEY: So you came here to say to us tonight that the ALF, the ELF are non-violent and will not escalate beyond arson. Is that right?

ALF CELL LEADER: I think it interesting that in today's political climate, that we are America's top domestic terrorist threat; but, we haven't killed anyone. But the neo-Nazis have maimed and have murdered and they're not considered a terrorist threat. I think it's abysmal. Animal activists can face more time than a man who rapes a woman, I think it's because it challenges the status quo.

BRADLEY: Is there anything else that you'd like to add?

ALF CELL LEADER: I think our general sentiments or objective are similar, to stop the destruction of life…. It's amazing to me we're having a conversation about violence in relation to the ALF and ELF when we have Monsanto and Dow Chemical, Exxon and companies who are hurting and murdering people with their by-products… I don't have hope. The fact were having a conversation about my tactics being extreme or violent while corporations are making a killing, literally and figuratively, and while their stocks are going through the roof, is amazing to me. To focus on us, that we are America top domestic terrorist threat, is amazing to me.

60 Minutes confirmed that there was indeed a break-in and theft at Marshall Farms in North Rose, New York on December 5, 2001. Marshall Farms breeds animals for research and sale. Scott Marshall, a representative of the company, wouldn't discuss details of the crime and the New York State Police in Albany wouldn't release copies of the police report. But there were accounts of the crime in animal rights publications and the local press.

When pressed, the man mentioned another incident, this one all the way across the country in Salinas, California. He claimed his ALF cell "liberated 24 rabbits" from a breeder, and "the owner was sleeping 15 yards away when we did it." 60 Minutes found an account in the San Jose Mercury News from May 2001 about a break-in at medical research company outside Salinas in which more than two dozen rabbits were stolen. The San Diego Union Tribune reported that "activists struck while members of the family… were elsewhere on the property."

By Graham Messick