Michelle Obama On Love, Family & Politics

CBS News anchor Katie Couric interviewed the woman who knows Barack Obama best - from policy to personality. Michelle Obama gets personal about her husband, their kids - and herself. What follows is the complete transcript of the interview. Segments of it ran on the CBS Evening News and the Early Show.

Michelle Obama: You know, it's been a whirlwind. When you think about what he's been able to put together in less than a year, I mean, we went from the beginning of this thing where there was an inevitable candidate. As far as the polls and the pundits were concerned, this race was over. And then you sort of start building an organization and raising money and meeting people and having conversations.

And it's just the momentum has continued to grow over the course of this year. And what has been just completely heart warming is to see that people are really hungry for something different. And I'm not trying … to be too political about that. I mean, truly people … want something different for themselves and for their lives.

And people are … feeling the pressure of the ever-increasing gap. They're worried about their kids and they're worried about their health and the challenges … are similar. It transcends race and political party. I mean, people are serious about moving this country in a different direction. And that makes me feel good to know that, you know, I'm not alone in my frustration. It's been a good year.

Couric: I was gonna ask you … do you sense a frustration in people? Because you look at the approval ratings for the president and they're quite low. But the approval rating for Congress [is] even lower.

Obama: Yeah. Yeah, no, people are frustrated. I mean, I think they have a sense that there's something broken in our politics. And it's taken a little while because I think Americans are patient. And they give people a chance. And folks don't like fundamental change.

I mean, they wanna believe that the system as it's structured ... is basically doing what it's supposed to do. But when you've gone through years and years and years of just things getting progressively worse for everyday working people. I think people are at the point where they're frustrated. And they don't see the light at the end of the tunnel.

They don't believe that if we don't make some significant change that things will be fundamentally different for the next generation. And I think that's what people are concerned about. I think, like any parent, you can suck it up for yourself. You can, you know, you can tough it through any bad situation. But I think folks are starting to think about the next generation to follow. And if we don't make those changes ... what's this country gonna look like for our children?

Couric: What do your girls think about this? Your daughter, Malia, is nine. Sasha is six.

Obama: Right.

Couric: Are they a bit overwhelmed by this whole thing?

Obama: They're not because … this isn't their life. You know, we've done the best that we can to keep them on course. So they're in the same school with the same teachers, with the same friends. And fortunately they go to school where people, you know, they've known us for a while.

People are excited, but they don't treat the girls any differently. So … I get home last night. And what do we talk about? They don't know what's going on in the Potomac. They don't about … the returns in Maryland or Virginia.

Couric: They're not looking ahead to Wisconsin?

Obama: No, they're not looking ahead to … they're talking about Valentine's Day. And Sasha finished her cards. She had two left and she finished them. And they have to take them tomorrow. And one's got a field trip. And they're gonna have pizza for lunch.

And, you know, that those are the highlights. You know, now if we talk to them about it, which I've done with Malia, giving her a sense of how this thing goes, what's the timing, and how long will it take before we know what's new. You know, you'll get a sense within her of the anxiety of a shift, like, if Dad wins, then will we move?

So they have some real practical considerations about what does this mean? Do I go to a new school? Will I make new friends? I mean, it's all the things that you would think a nine year old would be concerned with if she was gonna move.

Couric: On the other hand, do they say, "Gee, Mommy, all these people are cheering for Daddy. This is so weird?" I mean … they must have some sense because you can't completely isolate them.

Obama: Yeah, no, well, when we're out there, they don't really react to it, you know? Malia said this was the night of one of the last caucuses. It was Super Tuesday. And we were … here in Illinois. We had a victory party. And we always ask do they wanna come on stage. And Malia said, "Now, you know, Daddy, that's not my thing."

Couric: I know, he said that actually when he spoke … which is very funny.

Obama: So they had friends there. We had family and friends. And they did not wanna go out there and wave. I mean, it was nice. They've done it before. But … it's interesting because they don't react to it. They don't think, "Wow, Daddy, isn't this interesting?" The little one is much more interested in the limelight. And she likes to wave.

Couric: She's the one who was smiling.

Obama: Oh, yeah.

Couric: When you were photographed on Capitol Hill and actually high-fived Dick Cheney.

Obama: Gave Dick Cheney a high five. So, like, there goes Sasha.

Couric: Let me ask you about when you first met your husband. Before you were married the two of you worked at a law firm together in Chicago. And I read when you he first asked you out, he said, "No, thank you," not wanting to mix business with pleasure.

Obama: Right.

Couric: But then he invited you somewhere. And your view of him changed dramatically. What was that? And what happened?

Obama: Well, we were friends from the start, because I was his advisor. And my job was to welcome him to the firm. I took him out to lunch. And immediately I liked him because he didn't take himself too seriously but he was very bright, had a very interesting background, just a good guy to talk to. You know, you could laugh easily with him. So I was, like, this is a friend.

But then he asked me out on a date. And I thought, "Well, my advisee. Hmm, I don't think that looks right." But he invited me to go to one of the churches because he had been a community organizer and worked on the far South Side with a group of churches. And he took me to a training that he was doing. And there were mostly single parent mothers, mostly African Americans on the South Side.

And he did a training talking about concept like the world as it is and the world as it should be and how the job of ordinary people in organizing, this is to try to narrow … the gap between those two ideas. And to see him transform himself from the guy who was a summer associate in a law firm with a suit and then to come into this church basement with folks who were like me, who grew up like me, who were challenged and struggling in ways that I never would, and to be able to take off that suit and tie and become a whole 'nother person and connect with people in the same way he had connected with folks in that firm, you don't see someone who can make that transition and do it comfortably and feel comfortable in his own skin and to touch people's hearts in the way that he did, because people connected with his message. And I knew then and there there's something different about this guy. Because you see people who can live well in corporate America. They can wear that uniform well. They can't make the transition and vice versa. Barack lived comfortably in those two worlds.

And it was impressive. And his message was moving. I mean, it touched me.

It made me think differently about what am I doing with my life. And how am I adding to the notion of getting us to the world as it should be? Am I doing it in my law firm? You know? So he made me think in ways that I hadn't before.

Couric: And you were smitten after that.

Obama: I thought … I could hang out with this guy. I was impressed. I really was.

Couric: You've seen the crowds, the way they embrace your husband. Some commentators have used the word "messianic." Do you ever worry that the whole thing, the whole movement is a little over the top for some voters?

Obama: Barack and I talk about this all the time. We talked about it before the decision to run, because … when you're really trying to make serious change, you don't want people to get caught up in emotion because change isn't emotion. Because change isn't emotion. Its real work and organization and strategy - that's just the truth of it. I mean, you pull people in with inspiration, but then you have to roll up your sleeves and you've got to make sacrifices and you have got to have structure.

And you've gotta, you know, you have to have support and you have to have interests to move things forward. So we do think about that all the time.

I mean, that's one of the reasons why we try to laugh at ourselves to sort of keep all this excitement to a reasonable level. That's why I teased Barack about putting up the socks and, you know, making sure he's putting up the butter. It's not that, you know, I'm trying to …

Couric: Emasculate him?

Obama: Exactly. The point is that Barack, like any leader, is human. And, you know, our challenges in this country isn't finding the next person who's gonna deliver us from our own evil. Because our challenges are us. The challenges that this country faces is how are we as individuals in this society gonna change? What are we gonna do differently?

Couric: I was just gonna say, sorry to interrupt. I think as the criticism against him mounts, it sort of, you know, lofty oratory is great. Inspiring words are that, inspiring. But real problems require real solutions more than just rhetoric. I'm sure you've heard that.

Obama: Right, right.

Couric: Both Sen. Clinton and now John McCain are kind of upping the ante in terms of attacking him … for his inspirational message, basically insinuating there's no there there.

Obama: Yeah, well, you know, that's what you do. If you can't do the inspiration, then … they attack the guy that can do both because essentially Barack isn't all flash and fire and brimstone. He's developed very comprehensive approaches to the problems that this nation is gonna face.

He's delivered major comprehensive addresses on energy and the economy and healthcare and education. Barack is probably one of the most substantive politicians that you'll ever meet. But it's easy to sort of focus on the inspiration because that's what gets people to move. But there's a whole lot of there there.

That's sort of the least of my worries about Barack because it's just a matter of sitting down and, you know, to see him put together in a year a political organization that has done all of this shows that there's a lot more than just good talking going on. I mean, you don't get to this stage in a presidential race without knowing how to build an organization and pull together a set of policies and to get through some tough debates and to move some political advocates and to make some major substantive impacts.

You don't get here on just words. You don't get this far on just words. So, you know, I think that's an easy way to kind of minimize, sort of, the effect that he's having on this country, which is pretty real.

Couric: This must be an extremely heady experience for both of you. And I know you have said he's always had a healthy ego. How do you keep it all in check?

Obama: You know, he's got a healthy ego because anybody who decides they're gonna be president of the United States has to think well of themselves.

But the truth is there are a lot of bumps and bruises along this, you know, campaign trail. There are a lot of humbling experiences. I mean, as I said, Barack has spent most of this year being the person who has no chance of winning.

So what Barack is telling voters every day is, you know, don't bet on me. Bet on yourselves because that's how we're gonna make this change. Me and all of you working together, hitting some bumps in the road but doing some great things, if we act with courage and wisdom. So I think his whole message is one that is a bit more humble than people give him credit for.

Couric: You talked about the question of whether there was enough substance … behind the rhetoric is the least of your worries. What is your biggest worry?

Obama: You know, this is hard. The changes that we need to make in this country are gonna be hard, and they're gonna require a whole lot of sacrifice from every single American. And it's gonna require a level of unity in this country that we haven't seen yet and we haven't experienced it, at least in my adult lifetime.

So when you approach this with a notion that this is gonna be hard, you know, you wanna make sure that you're going into this with your eyes open and prepared for … the natural bumps and bruises that are gonna come in this process. This isn't, you know, this is a hard job.

Couric: Do you worry at all that this message of hope, which is so uplifting and inspiring, but … do you worry this message of hope could be setting unrealistically high expectations? Unifying the country, healing the wound, making, you know, unlimited progress in all sorts of areas. It sounds so great, but do you think people will expect too much?

Obama: You know, you have to start with hope. You know, you don't get anywhere in this country without hope. So it's a necessity. What Barack says is that people have to understand hope isn't just blind optimism. It isn't passive. It isn't just sitting there waiting for things to get better.

Hope is the vision that you have to have. It's the inspiration that moves people into action. Right? There are more people engaged in this political process in this year than we've seen in my lifetime. And it is all because of hope because people believe in the possibility of something unseen.

They have to believe that things can change. It starts there, right? The next step is the work. It's the challenge of then now saying, "Are you ready to roll up your sleeves and set aside your fear and your cynicism and make some sacrifices to move this thing forward?"

And, "Are you willing to, you know, push yourselves for change?" So if it were just blind optimism I'd say you're right. But there are a lot of plans and strategies and policies that are gonna have to be in place. And people are gonna have to stay engaged. I mean, what Barack always says, it's not about voting in the upcoming primary and getting Barack to the Oval Office. It's ensuring that people stay engaged …

Couric: And invested.

Obama: At the table and invested, not just for the presidential election but what's going on in Congress every single day. What's going on in your statehouse every single day. What's going on at the councilman level. And Americans can't turn on and off, just when it's time to elect the next president.

Couric: But you know how stressful people's lives are and how busy they are and …

Obama: Absolutely.

Couric: How they're struggling to make ends meet. Is that expecting too much of people, every day to know what your local councilman is doing?

Obama: You know, if more of us are doing it, it takes the burden off of more of us. You know? I mean, now if there are only five active citizens in your town, well, yeah, that's … a heavy burden. But if there were a choice, I'd say, yeah, you're right, you know?

Just go back to your lives as usual. Just keep shopping. But that's what we've been doing. And we don't get the outcomes that we hope for in a nation when we're not paying attention. That's just the unfortunate I guess reality of a democracy. That it requires active engagement. And for so long we've had leadership that's been happy with us being engaged at marginal levels.

You know, if people can get the win with most people staying home, a lot of people take the win. But what Barack is saying is that winning isn't enough when you want change. And that means that people have to find a way to move beyond … their hectic schedules and engage at some level, you know? Maybe not every single day, but at least on a regular basis. And, you know, that can't be too much to ask, you know?

When you're talking about ensuring that your kids have a decent public school to go to, what's more important than that? And how do you ensure that that happens? How do you ensure that the government, the federal government, is going to invest enough resources to ensure that every single child in this country has access to a decent education?

What on earth could be more important than that? And we're at a point now where it hasn't happened. That hasn't happened. So us sitting aside, not doing anything, hasn't led to good schools for all kids. So we have to do something differently.

Couric: Your husband's experience has been repeatedly questioned. Some voters worry that with three years in the Senate he needs a little more experience under his belt before he's ready. What do you tell people who are worried about that?

Obama: I tell people that in our politics we measure by this very narrow definition. And a lot of times its years in Washington, or whether you've made a lot of money running a very large corporation. I mean, we just tend to weigh certain experiences more than others. But what I say is that the measure of leadership is the choices that people made over a lifetime, not when everybody's looking.

Couric: Like what?

Obama: Community organizing. Now, when was the last time we've had a president of the United States who spent years working on the streets in a major city, for years working with people who never had a voice and advocating for better streets, cleaner streets, safer communities? Somebody who has worked as a constitutional law scholar, [as a] civil rights attorney, for years.

Barack could have been a partner at a major law firm. He could have worked on Wall Street. He probably could have been the CEO of a company. But he made choices to work on issues of justice, things like housing discrimination and employment discrimination. Barack has more legislative experience than Hillary Clinton does. Barack has spent eight years, in addition to his work as a U.S. Senator, in the state legislature.

And I would think that having a President of the United States who understands how federal law impacts local government would be useful. And it's not just anywhere. I mean, when people talk about whether Barack is tough enough to handle the Republicans I say, yeah, we've grown up in Chicago politics; Illinois politics. Some of the toughest politics that you'll see anywhere in this country.

And Barack has been able to make major movements in legislation in our state, like passing health care … expanding it for kids in our state, passing an earned income tax credit for the working poor, working on ethics reform in a state that hadn't seen it in more than 25 years. I mean, I could go on about the accomplishments he's done, most of the time working in the minority at a state legislative level. Those are real experiences. They're ones that his opponent can't claim.

So this is what happens in politics. We define experiences narrowly so that … it just points to the few things that you've done. And then the other stuff that the other person has done isn't experience. Barack is highly experienced. It's not conventional experience that we're used to seeing, because most people have spent a whole lot of time in Washington building their experiences.

Barack has traveled the world, lived in other countries. He brings a certain unconventional approach to the Oval Office. And what people are saying all around the country is that that's what they're looking for. They're not looking for the conventional years in Washington. We've done that. So let's try something new. Let's bring somebody in who's … gonna look at this stuff in a very different perspective. And that's exactly what I tell people.

Couric: If it ends up being a race against your husband and John McCain ... Sen. McCain will undoubtedly focus on ... your husband's lack of foreign-policy experience. How do you combat that?

Obama: One of the things Barack will say is that … we're right now in a war that should have never been authorized and never been waged. People like John McCain and people with a whole lot of years in Washington, who looked at a situation and read it wrong.

Couric: But what about September 11? Nobody wanted that to happen. And I think the country wants to be reassured that the person in the Oval Office will know how to respond.

Obama: You know, one of the things we can't do in this country is operate from a place of fear. How are we going to reestablish our footing in the world and change conversations globally so that we … move to a different place in how we deal with issues of terrorism?

That we're … instead of protecting ourselves against terrorists, that we're building diplomatic relationships and we're investing in education abroad so that we're making sure that kids are learning how to read as opposed to ... fight us.

We've spent eight years gearing ourselves up for a fight, and we haven't been educating our kids. We don't have universal health care. I think that's going to be the debate that Barack has: How are we going to direct our energy? Are we going to gear up for a fight or are we going to work to heal our nation?

Couric: Your husband and Hillary Clinton both represent historic firsts. He's 46. She's 60. What about voters who feel Sen. Clinton won't have another chance but your husband will?

Obama: You know, I just don't think you can make decisions on whose turn it is. I think, you know, for me as a mother, a professional, a citizen; I want the person who we need now, who's best for the country right now. And for me that person is Barack, because we need a unifier, you know?

We need a visionary. We need somebody who understands policy and can help us reestablish our place in the world. But we need somebody who can bring this country together. And I just say when was the last time we've had a presidential candidate of any race, gender, or political party who's been able to win Utah and Missouri and Louisiana and South Carolina and Maine?

You know, Barack is demonstrating an ability to reach across party lines and change blue and red states to purple in ways that potentially will help us build a working majority in Congress where we can get some of this stuff done. I don't think that his opponent has that same potential.

And we can't afford to wait another four or eight years to get the chance to do this again. And I say that because I've got these little kids. I have a 9-and a 6-year-old. Why would I wait, because somebody else … deserves a turn? You know, I just don't feel … that would be a responsible choice for me as a voter to say, "It's somebody else's turn, so let them do it." I think we've gotta vote for the person who can get us to where we need to be in this country, where we can really start working on some of these problems and, you know, I think that person is Barack.

Couric: You don't think it's Hillary Clinton?

Obama: I think that person is Barack.

Couric: As an African American, you gave a very impassioned speech in South Carolina about meeting Coretta Scott King and the impact that had on you. And you talked about the importance not really of electing an African American as President, although there were some elements … of that in the speech. And you talked about … the content … of someone's character versus their race. But as an African American, taking yourself out of the picture, not even imagining yourself on Inauguration Day if that comes to pass, what would it mean to you to have an African American President of the United States?

Obama: You know, I think in terms of when … I spoke to that audience I also talked a lot about fear, because in this country we spend more time worrying about what we can't do, what won't happen, what won't change. And there is so much fear that ties us down in this country, not just in the African American community but in all communities.

We're worried about fairness and whether we're gonna get lost in the shuffle. And sometimes we make decisions based on that fear and that fear only and we don't look at the possibility. We don't think in terms of what we can move forward and how we have the power to control our own destinies because we're locked in that fear.

I think somebody like Barack, not just because of his race but because of the way he approaches leadership, has helped people to move beyond that fear, not just black folks but people, you know, in Iowa. People in Utah, you know, are for the first time not thinking about just race and gender but they're thinking about change. They're thinking about what's the best thing for everybody? And the minute we can move into that mode of thinking, then you really unlock possibilities for all the kids in this country because they don't see themselves as being measured just by their race or their gender.

They think, "If I work hard and I'm given some opportunity, I'm gonna have a chance even though my skin is this color, even though I'm a woman, because I've seen a woman-- and the country is ready for that." That's powerful to me. That, you know, it makes me emotional and it gives me pride, that I'm living today in a country where people are ready to have that be who we are. It has given me an overwhelming sense of pride right now to be an American. And I haven't felt that way in my entire life.

Couric: You strike me as someone who likes to say what's on her mind, pretty feisty. I've read that … you can be sarcastic.

Obama: Yes.

Couric: Have you had … to really kind of rein yourself in on the campaign trail? Because, as you know, everything you say can and will be used against you … in the court of public opinion.

Obama: You know … what I vowed is that I want to be as "me" as I can be so that people, you know, if they vote for Barack, they know exactly who their First Lady will be, all the good and bad. So pretty much what people see … is what they get.

Couric: But certainly you've had to bite your tongue …

Obama: Well, yeah … because, you know, we have a habit of just characterizing people. You know, it's just sort of easy … to define Michelle Obama as the feisty, sarcastic. Then you become that caricature. So I just try to give people a broader variety of who I am-,so that, you know, my joke doesn't interfere with the broader point.

I think when I'm sitting in front of people, I'm standing in front of an audience, I think people understand clearly who I am. I don't think that people have to figure out what I'm all about. It's pretty obvious. But when somebody else interprets that interaction on a piece of paper out of context then, you know, the point is lost.

And I don't want the point to be lost because the point isn't my humor. It's not the joke. It's the actual point behind the joke. So, yeah, there is sometimes when I cut back and think about how is this gonna be perceived on paper, so that the point isn't lost.

Couric: People do like to characterize people; caricature people. And they like to follow a narrative. I'm sure you've been asked this and it's sort of a hackneyed question but I'm gonna ask you anyway because I don't think you've actually articulated fully … what you … might do and if you even know at this point in time. But obviously First Ladies have adopted causes, you know, from Ladybird Johnson to Betty Ford to, you know, Barbara Bush and literacy.

Betty Ford in kind of busting taboos about breast cancer and alcohol addiction. Nancy Reagan about drugs. Have you thought about what cause you would really like to adopt and pursue and push into the forefront?

Obama: I've thought about it a lot and I get asked it a lot. But there are a lot of things that I care about. I mean, I ran … a national service program, so I care very deeply about national service. I work for an academic medical center. So I know the challenges in healthcare.

I am a mother and a professional - and a wife. And I know the struggles of trying to balance work/life/family. And I know that it's something that every woman that I know is struggling with, and every family in America is impacted by the challenges that we face when we try to do it all without resources and support … informal structures of support.

The only way that I manage every day is because of all these informal support structures in my life, whether it's my mom or a set of girlfriends or the flexibility on a job because I'm a vice president and I can set my hours when I need to. I've managed because of that. But how on earth are single-parent mothers doing it, nurses and teachers and folks who are on shifts?

People who don't have access to decent childcare. You know, folks who don't have good healthcare and where the school systems aren't where they need to be so they're worried about whether their kids are getting a good education. You know, all of this takes an emotional and psychological toll on women and families.

And the truth of the matter is that we are only as strong in this society … as the health of our families and the people who head them. But we haven't talked enough about that in just real practical ways. I mean, up until this point, as a woman, I've been told, "You can have it all, and you should be able to manage it all." And I've been losing my mind trying to live up to that. And it's impossible. It's impossible. We're putting women and families in a no-win situation.

Couric: Especially if they don't have the flexibility that you …

Obama: …which the vast majority of women in this country don't. They're not earning enough to cover childcare. They don't-- you know, I met … a woman ... she's working two jobs: a full-time job and a part-time job. She has two kids and a husband. They don't have healthcare. You know? She has a 7-year-old and a 3-year-old, you know? I mean, you know she's not healthy. You know she doesn't have time to get mammograms and Pap smears. You know that she doesn't feel secure about what kind of mother she is.

And she's not fully invested in any of the jobs that she has because she's trying to do it all. That's how women are living in this society. And that transcends race and socioeconomic status and political affiliation. I can go into any town, anywhere in this country, and I can spend hours talking to women about this impossible balance, and the toll that it's taking.

So we have to talk about that. And we have to design policies that have meaningful impacts on the quality of life of women and families. And that's something that I know I can speak passionately about because whether I'm in the White House as First Lady, as long as I have kids and I'm trying to have a life, I'm gonna be trying to make this balance work, wondering every day whether I'm being a good enough mother, whether I'm spending enough time with my kids.

What happens when they have a crisis and I'm flying around somewhere? My challenges are much more public, but they're the same as most women. And we need to figure this out. And how do we define roles for ourselves as women that are healthy and balanced and make sense?

Couric: So work-family issues is something obviously you're passionate about.

Obama: That was the long way of saying that. Yes.

Couric: Sixteen years ago we saw another candidate's wife break the mold. She was a lawyer, a mother, an outspoken advocate for her husband. Do you see any similarities between you and Hillary Clinton in 1992?

Obama: You know, I'm sure there are some. But … I feel like I am uniquely me. You know, I think that every First Lady in the history of this nation has brought something uniquely different and has moved that role in a fundamentally different direction. I think it has been an evolution that has gotten us to this point where I can be here, potentially to become the next First Lady, with all of my outspokenness and my approach to life and the things that I say. I think it's been an evolution in this country because of the many First Ladies that have come before.

Couric: Have you gotten advice from anyone?

Obama: You know, I seek advice …when I get a chance to talk to somebody - and it's just difficult to sit down and talk to people - I've talked to as many people as I possibly can. And if we are fortunate enough to win the nomination, trust me, I will be talking to as many people who have shared this experience as I can, just to get some perspective on how they've handled it.

And it's not just people who have been in the position of being First Lady. The spouses of people and, at the governor's level, people who have been in the public eye.

Couric: Do you ever look at your husband, and does he ever look at you, and do you say can you believe this?

Obama: Oh yeah. Yeah. It's probably once a week now. Yeah, absolutely. This is a trip.