Taking Liberties
October 1, 2009 3:55 AM

Gun Rights Case Could Turn On Civil War-Era Laws

(AP )
The U.S. Supreme Court announced on Wednesday that it plans to hear the next major gun rights case, a move that will decide whether the Second Amendment can invalidate state laws and municipal ordinances.

A 5-4 Supreme Court decision last year did say that the U.S. Constitution protects an individual right to own a handgun. But the majority opinion never concluded that the Second Amendment applied to states; it didn't say what kind of laws beyond a flat ban are acceptable or unacceptable; it didn't even say what kind of standards lower courts should apply when evaluating anti-gun laws.

One result was to leave lower court judges scratching their heads about which laws were permissible. Another was to create what one pro-gun attorney last week dubbed an "apartheid of civil rights," where gun rights vary by state.

The current case before the justices arose out of Chicago's restrictive gun laws, which prohibit anyone from possessing firearms -- even in their homes -- "unless such person is the holder of a valid registration certificate for such firearm." That's virtually identical to the Washington, D.C. law that the court said was unconstitutional last year, and violations in both cities include criminal penalties.

Deciding whether or not the Second Amendment restricts state and local governments might sound straightforward enough. After all, the First Amendment starts out by saying "Congress shall make no law," but the Supreme Court has interpreted that language to prevent states (and even state universities) from engaging in censorship.

So if much of the rest of the Bill of Rights applies to state governments -- a concept called "incorporation" -- why not the Second Amendment as well?

This topic sounds like one that only a law professor would love, but in the last half-century or so, the Supreme Court has ruled that only "fundamental" rights crucial to "ordered liberty" are incorporated. (A wag might say that the justices were simply picking and choosing portions of the Bill of Rights that they find attractive while ignoring others. Call it the à la carte school of constitutional law.)

The city of Chicago, in a 43-page brief submitted to the Supreme Court, has argued that the right to own a firearm is not fundamental: "In urban environments, where handgun abuse is so rampant, the protection of a right to handguns simply because they are in common use undermines, rather than guarantees, ordered liberty. It is, instead, the very governmental power to protect residents that is critical to the concept of ordered liberty, since enforcing handgun control laws can make an enormous difference in curbing firearms violence."

In last year's Heller decision, both the majority and the dissenters reviewed the history of ratification of the Second Amendment. This time, when reviewing Chicago's ordinance, they'll likely look to the debate over the 1868 adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment (which is what provides an avenue for the federal Bill of Rights to apply to the states).

Sen. Jacob Howard's speech to the U.S. Senate in 1866 provides a glimpse into what was going through the minds of the people who actually drafted the Fourteenth Amendment. Howard said:
To these privileges and immunities, whatever they may be – for they are not and cannot be fully defined in their entire extent and precise nature – to these should be added the personal rights guaranteed by the first eight amendments of the Constitution; such as the freedom of speech and of the press; the right of the people peaceably to assemble and petition the Government for a redress of grievances, a right pertaining to each and all of the people; the right to keep and bear arms; the right to be exempt from unreasonable searches and seizures, and from any search or seizure except by virtue of a warrant issued upon a formal oath or affidavit; the right of an accused person to be informed of the nature of the accusation against him, and his right to be tried by an impartial jury of the vicinage; and also the right to be secure against excessive bail and against cruel and unusual punishments. (Emphasis added.)

Stephen Halbrook, a lawyer and historian who has written a book titled Freedmen, the Fourteenth Amendment, and the Right to Bear Arms, has extensively reviewed the debate in the U.S. Congress over extending the right to bear arms to the newly-freed slaves after the Civil War. He concludes: "The framers of that amendment understood from hard experience that the rights to personal security and personal liberty are inseparable from the rights to self defense and to keep and bear arms."

The Fourteenth Amendment was enacted largely to overrule the Supreme Court's infamous Dred Scott v. Sandford (1856) case, which said that if the "large slaveholding states regarded (blacks) as included in the word citizens," then they would be granted rights including the ability to travel freely, the right to speak freely, and "to keep and carry arms wherever they went."

It also was intended to eliminate the notorious black codes, which in some states provided harsher criminal punishments for blacks than whites, regulated domestic relations of blacks, and, in the words of the Supreme Court in a 1964 decision, meant blacks "were not allowed to bear arms." (Justice Antonin Scalia's opinion in the Heller case echoes this, saying: "Blacks were routinely disarmed by Southern States after the Civil War. Those who opposed these injustices frequently stated that they infringed blacks' constitutional right to keep and bear arms.")

There's no guarantee, of course, that the Supreme Court's eventual decision in the current case, called McDonald v. Chicago, will focus on the congressional debates of some 120 years ago. But if you're the betting type, I'd give you good odds that it will.

And here's another bet: If the Supreme Court justices can define a fundamental right to privacy that "is broad enough to cover the abortion decision" and render certain state laws invalid -- even though the words "privacy" and "abortion" appear nowhere in the text of the U.S. Constitution -- would they really want to risk a public outcry by ruling a well-documented right to self-defense is somehow less fundamental?

I'm betting the answer is no. Not even the Supreme Court likes to deviate too much from public opinion and academic consensus, and when you have two-thirds of the states and three-quarters of Americans holding broadly pro-gun views, this would be one grassroots revolt that the justices have no interest in creating.

PS: The next brief from Alan Gura, who is representing the Chicago residents with the help of the Second Amendment Foundation, is due November 16. Chicago's brief is due December 16; the plaintiffs' reply brief is due January 15. Gura said that he expects oral arguments to take place in February 2010.

Declan McCullagh is a correspondent for CBSNews.com. He can be reached at declan@cbsnews.com. You can bookmark the Taking Liberties site here, or subscribe to the RSS feed.
Tags:
second amendment ,
fourteenth amendment ,
chicago
Topics:
Gun Rights
Share:
  • Share
  • Yahoo! Buzz
  • Mixx
Add a Comment See all 79 Comments
by FrancescaZ October 7, 2009 11:32 AM EDT
Sotomayor's anti-2nd Amendment views have been well documented. However Souter was yet another Republican appointed leftist so the vote range probably won't change.

Our Founding Fathers would not recognize today's America.
The Federal government has trampled on states' rights.
The Federal government and various states have trampled on the INDIVIDUAL's rights.

The 2nd Amendment is applicable to the states via the 14th Amendment. THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE, and WE are the people. GunBanObama.com
Reply to this comment
by Freedom-Soul October 17, 2009 9:10 PM EDT
To be fair, that is incomplete quote of Sen Howard. He went on in the same speech and said those first eight amendments were only applicable to United States citizens as such and not citizens of a state. The House Judiciary Committee, chaired by John Bingham, declared on January 30, 1871 that the Fourteenth Amendment had not added anything to the privileges and immunities, and that they are the same as they always had been under article four, section two. See Misunderstanding the Fourteenth Amendment by P.A. Madison:

http://federalistblog.us/2009/10/the_incorporation_debacle.html
by SicSemperTyrannis October 2, 2009 11:05 PM EDT
If you are not willing to SHOOT and KILL ANYONE and EVERYONE that attempts to take away your freedom, you don't deserve it, you WILL lose it, and the 2nd amendment was never written for you anyway.

"A man who won't die for something is not fit to live."
Martin Luther King, Jr.

"How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the plain Meaning of Words!"
Samuel Adams

"The liberties of our country, the freedom of our civil constitution, are worth defending against all hazards: And it is our duty to defend them against all attacks."
Samuel Adams

"A general dissolution of principles and manners will more surely overthrow the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy. While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue then will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader."
Samuel Adams

"It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men."
Samuel Adams

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, ? go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!"
Samuel Adams
Reply to this comment
by hanko308 October 1, 2009 1:08 PM EDT
All nice comments, but the Supreme court has a simple solution---by ruling that the federal government, per the U.S. Constitution, pre-empts all state and municipal laws on this issue. The illustrious politicians that were elected into their state and municipal offices are NOT abiding by either the state constitution nor the U.S. Constitution in this matter. Sure, you may say that gun laws are needed (we have enough at the federal level), but then why does Chicago have the highest murder rate in the entire country, yet they have the most restrictions on owning guns in the entire country??????? Where does the real problem exist?????
Reply to this comment
by terry_freeman October 1, 2009 12:51 PM EDT
If liberals are going to use the first part of the 2nd amendment in an effort to restrict the right to keep and bear arms to "the militia", then they must appreciate what the militia is: every adult able to bear arms. To restrict the right to only the National Guard would not meet the purpose: "the security of a free state." Where government decides who may and may not be armed, there is a police state, not a free state.

I find it tragic that today's quasi-liberals still cling to the KKK-era legacy laws, designed to disarm blacks and other "undesirables."
Reply to this comment
by Lawyers-Guns-n-Money-01 October 1, 2009 1:33 PM EDT
Yes, the extremist quasi-libs (I'm assuming this in in deference to classical liberals) would have us all believe tossing flowers at each other would solve the worlds ill. However, you illustrate the OTHER extreme by believing gun restrictions are some covert conspiracy to subvert America.

Like I said, It's a proliferation issue. If there's a buck to be made by moving as much weaponry as possible, scruples go out the window.
by gunownerdan October 1, 2009 12:29 PM EDT
Learn about the racist roots of gun control in America.
Watch "NO GUNS FOR NEGROES" for free at JPFO.org or on youtube!
Reply to this comment
by October 1, 2009 10:59 AM EDT
So many people worry about being shot by ordinary citizens, an extremely unlikely occurrence, that they miss the real danger: being shot by police. After all, most ordinary citizens who carry regularly train with their firearms much more often than many police do. It's bad enough that many cops can't hit someone at point blank range. Of course, sometimes they do, which is why completely innocent Georgia pastor Jonathan Paul Ayers is no longer with us.

As for Chicago, you can bet that its handgun ban is completely racially motivated. Whites who want to own guns are in the suburbs -- or nowhere in Illinois at all, given that the state has some of the most restrictive firearms laws of anywhere in the U.S. This handgun ban is all about keeping the black population of the city "in their place," unable to provide for their own security, and aside from the constitutional issue, that's another reason why it must be struck down.
Reply to this comment
by Lawyers-Guns-n-Money-01 October 1, 2009 10:43 AM EDT
So is this an issue about being able to defend against a wholesale government takeover or individual rights to protection?
Reply to this comment
by OregonJames October 1, 2009 10:29 AM EDT
I will never surrender my right to keep rifles, pistols, revolvers, shotguns, bb guns, knives, or any other weapon because some dummy in a suit passes a stupid law. The right to protect myself, my family, my community, and my country far outweighs any law that would limit that freedom.
Reply to this comment
by Lawyers-Guns-n-Money-01 October 1, 2009 11:04 AM EDT
by OregonJames October 1, 2009 10:29 AM EDT
I will never surrender my right to keep rifles, pistols, revolvers, shotguns, bb guns, knives, or any other weapon because some dummy in a suit passes a stupid law. The right to protect myself, my family, my community, and my country far outweighs any law that would limit that freedom.
=======================================================

This isn't about surrendering your rights to bear arms. This is about registering them. The problem is, it's likely most law abiding citizens would abide by the law and register their weapons and be in good standing with the law. It's more about the proliferation of weapons by the seedier underbelly in communities like Chicago. How many criminals do you imagine would line up to register their gats?

Overall, I think the ordinance, law or whatever the terminology being used for this piece of legislation in Chicago will be ineffective. Yeah, there might be a few cases where a law abiding citizen has a registered gun stolen from their residence and law enforcement is able to tie a subsequent crime to that gun because it was registered.

All in all, IMHO, it's not so much a rights issue but a proliferation issue.
by rodom2 October 1, 2009 10:13 AM EDT
A U. S. Federal Appeals Court declared in 1982: "There is no
constitutional right to be protected by the state against being
murdered by criminals or madmen." Bowers vs. deVito, U. S. Court of
Appeals, 7th Circuit 686 F. 2d 616 {1982}

The Constitution and the Supreme Court places personal protection directly into the hands and responsibility of the citizen. Without access to firearms, we are nothing more than sheep awaiting the slaughter.

The government has tried to control rather than empower the citizens of America and history has clearly shown that attempts to "control" the people has never worked out for either side...
Reply to this comment
by kenhamlett October 1, 2009 9:46 AM EDT
My first thought is the obvious. A person has a right to self defense and self preservation (hunting) and defense of one's family and community. It is not within the realm of the courts to deny these rights on based on law or Constitutional provisions. The right to self preservation in fundamental and a direct extension of Devine and natural law. It can not be legislated away.
The second thought is a reminder that the government can not and will not protect the population and can not be a substitute for the right to preserve one's life. As an extension, police are very often as corrupt as the criminals so there is no assumption possible that government is the good guy. Our founding Fathers knew that!
The third thought is that limitations are inherently unfair since we not only have the previously mentioned corrupt cops (and government officials in general) but a large segment of the population who have criminal intent and their weapons can not be removed from their possession and use. If one weapon is removed another takes its place. The honest citizen who surre4nders his right to defend himself is automatically a victim. Of course a citizen who would give up his rights is really a subject and has surrendered all of his rights.
Thus the arguments of government that they are superior to the people are mot. They are not our masters and can not interfere with our fundamental rights.

The potential rulings are irrelevant since the rights are absolute.
Reply to this comment
by hungry1968-16 October 1, 2009 9:44 AM EDT
by biger-e October 1, 2009 9:34 AM EDT
I would rather be shot by a "well-meaning but stupid vigilante" than a malicious, evil, violent criminal. How often are well-meaning but stupid vigilantes shooting people and then ask yourself how often criminals are.






Most people that criminals shoot, are people that they know.

Crimes of passion, drug deals gone bad, etc, etc.

It's VERY RARE that someone is shot and killed by a complete and total stranger, for no apparent reason.
Reply to this comment
by biger-e October 1, 2009 9:53 AM EDT
Really? thank you for enlightening me Hungry (cough cough for Obama). I will tell that to the family of the guy who was just shot and killed in the town where I live during an armed robbery. He was just shopping. I am sure his famiily will be happy to know that it is VERY RARE. I think it is much more common that vigilantes killing innocent people don't you?
by hungry1968-16 October 1, 2009 9:41 AM EDT
by 1American October 1, 2009 9:32 AM EDT
If the second amendment were designed to insure the government's keeping a "well regulated militia" then it would have said "the right of the militia to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". It says "right of the people" for a reason. America had just finished a war for freedom against a government who changed laws at will, refused to listen to its citizens, confiscated private property for use by government officials without compensation, abused its citizens and their families, on and on ad nauseum.






The second amendment SAYS: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

It clearly says that people have the right to bear arms, so that they can act as part of the "citizen militia", to help keep us free. What you on the right don't understand, is that we didn't have a standing military when the constitution was written. Our forefathers relied on CITIZENS to keep the peace, protect us from invaders, etc, etc.

Since we now have NUMEROUS police forces, sheriffs departments, state police / troopes, and a full standing military, the second amendment has been rendered obsolete and irrelevant, since we DO NOT rely on the private citizens, (aka a militia), of this nation to "keep the peace" or "protect us from foreign invaders".
Reply to this comment
by love2ridend October 1, 2009 9:11 AM EDT
Please explain. Washington DC had strict gun control and has a population of approx 600,000 had 186 murders. My state North Dakota
has 650,000 and 2 murders "neither were gun related" and very loose gun control. Maybe people who live in cities are just inherently violent.
Reply to this comment
by schoollord October 1, 2009 9:53 AM EDT
First the zero gun-related murders stat is just for 2008. Second, the suicide rate is North Dakota is above the national rate mostly because close to 60% of all suicides in North Dakota are gun-related. So we could say that people in North Dakota do use their guns to kill...just that mostly they use them to kill themselves.
by Wolf1944 October 1, 2009 9:55 AM EDT
In North Dakota you can drive a long time without seeing another human being. There just isn't anybody to shoot.
by love2ridend October 1, 2009 5:10 PM EDT
Its plain an simple. People who live in urban areas love kill each other rural people are harder working and not nearly as violent. Remeber the liberal god Ted Kennedy killed more people with his car than I did with my gun.
by rightbehind October 1, 2009 9:03 AM EDT
These right wing judges are definitely activist judges. They can be impeached and removed from public office. It would take 67 senate votes to do it. Good possibility if the democrats can pick up another 7 of the 18 republican senate seats on the ballot in 2010.
Reply to this comment
by biger-e October 1, 2009 9:39 AM EDT
yeah, good luck with that one.
by matthewhavens October 2, 2009 10:41 PM EDT
I hate to break it to you, but it isn't the SCOTUS that keeps the right to bear arms in check. Its the people that own them. Keep pushing... see what happens.

Know whats funny? All these left wing gun banners are always good at saying we need "common sense" gun laws (i.e. complete gun bans), but I don't see anyone volunteering to go door to door to confiscate them.

Wanna be the first to volunteer?
by istayright October 8, 2009 1:01 AM EDT
lol, don't hold your breath. Chances are the libs are going to lose at least that many seats themselves.
by hungry1968-16 October 1, 2009 9:00 AM EDT
by native_warrior_USMC October 1, 2009 7:58 AM EDT
Here's a thought. Guns outlawed in Chicago, crime is rampant. Guns are outlawed in DC, crime is rampant. Guns are outlawed in NYC, crime is rampant. Guns carried by over 50% of population in Indiana, very low crime. Guns in every house in Southwestern NY, including an Indian Reservation, crime virually non-existent. Hmmmmmm.







The laws were enacted and quickly killed in Washington and Chicago, and yes -- crime is rampant.

The gun laws were enacted in NYC, ARE STILL IN PLACE, and crime is dropping like a rock.

Nothing happens in Southwestern, NY, because NO ONE LIVES in Southwestern, NY except for wine farmers, Indians living on the reservations, and people that live in the "small cities" of Fredonia, Dunkirk, and Jamestown.

And as someone that lives in Depew, I see those three cities on the news and in the paper all the time with various crimes, and they happen at the same rate as any other small towns, cities, or villages.

So don't act like NO CRIME happens in Southwestern, NY, because that just isn't true.
Reply to this comment
by kno-1 October 1, 2009 8:36 AM EDT
Just curious...How many people can correctly identify the Supreme court justices in the picture w/o cheating? I admit, I didn't do so hot...5.
Reply to this comment
by Foxfire55 October 1, 2009 8:26 AM EDT
I have saved the lives of 2 people and put 3 very dangerous people in jail because I exercised the right to self defense and carried. I am an honest decent law abiding citizen who happens to to believe in the simple right to self defense. Those potential victims were grateful for my help. Those of you who are anti-gun please make sure you wear a sign so I can make sure I don't help you because that obviously is your choice.
Reply to this comment
by schoollord October 1, 2009 10:05 AM EDT
Foxfire said " have saved the lives of 2 people and put 3 very dangerous people in jail because I exercised the right to self defense and carried." Wow. What a hero. Saved 2 lives? Strange. Defensive gun uses are rare events. So rare that most police officers, who chase criminals for a living, retire without ever saving any lives. Several studies have said that "there's a tendency...a temptation to brag or exaggerate while reporting DGUs". Why? Because "defensive gun uses are considered to be heroic, laudable acts". While the gun loy reports 2.5 million DGUs per year the Department of Justice reports just 82,000 mostly against unarmed criminals. The gun lobby presented a report of DGUs in which there were more citizens stopping rapes with guns than the total number of rapes. That's impossible. That means not only that there were no rapes at all that year but that armed citizens even stopped attempted rapes that never ocurred. That's a nice magic trick. Take a look at this:"Respondents might falsely provide a positive
response to the DGU question for any of a number of
reasons:

o They may want to impress the interviewer by their
heroism and hence exaggerate a trivial event.

o They may be genuinely confused due to substance
abuse, mental illness, or simply less-than-accurate
memories.

o They may actually have used a gun defensively
within the last couple of years but falsely report
it as occurring in the previous year--a phenomenon
known as "telescoping." Gun owners like to tell a lot of tall tales.
by gunownerdan October 1, 2009 12:25 PM EDT
That low estimate of 82,000 DGU's per year is still SEVERAL HUNDRED DGU'S PER DAY.
Read it and weep!
Criminals prefer unarmed victims.
by stuart-johns1 October 1, 2009 8:00 AM EDT
Is'nt the 2d Amendment designed to ensure that we have a well regulated militia? And if so, did'nt the militia evolve into the National Guard?? And if so, we don't need the militia's anymore, right?

And how is a well regulated militia relevant anyway? I mean, citizens who own guns are not part of a well regulated militia.

You know, the Constitution evolves, it changes, it grows. Hence all the Amendments over time. That's a hint for the NRA maybe.
Reply to this comment
by rightbehind October 1, 2009 9:09 AM EDT
Actually if people with weapons became a threat to republican agenda they would collecting them like they did in Iraq. The NRA has been a vehicle to drive the republican voter base. Many of these people didn't understand that while republicans were in their corner for gun right they were at the same time eroding civil rights. Based on voting trends it looks like the membership is on to them.
by stuart-johns1 October 1, 2009 9:54 AM EDT
by 1American October 1, 2009 9:32 AM EDT
If the second amendment were designed to insure the government's keeping a "well regulated militia" then it would have said "the right of the militia to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". It says "right of the people" for a reason.

================

Actually it says what I said it says. Here is the exact quote which clearly connects the 2d Amendment to a well regulated militia and NOT the people right. Read:

Amendment II.

"A well regulated MILITIA, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

So yeah the right of the people is not simply to own a gun, but rather to be part of a well regulated militia. Following the structure and context of the entire statement helps to understand it better.

1American, you are trying to manipulate what the constitution says. I think so anyway. I think my interpretation is far more accurate than yours. Your argument is weak....in my opinion.
by 6591Hou October 1, 2009 11:14 AM EDT
Actually the historical context is that every adult property-holding male was required to be in the local militia, and were also required to have and maintain their own guns. Therefore you were expected to be a member of the militia, just by virtue of owning a home - notice that you don't see copies of militia rolls from that period but you can see army enlistment and discharge papers.

The 2nd Amendment does not say that only the regulated militia can bear arms, it says the people - and says that the right shall not be infringed. That's the rub - there can be many excellent reasons for disliking or even seeking to rescind the right, but it will take another amendment rather than endlessly parsing words and continuing the debate. I would even suggest an amendment that permits something like municipalities to pass statutes in the interest of public safety, but permits ownership in unincorporated areas or where municipalities do not have regulatory statutes.
by littlebigman21 October 1, 2009 11:42 PM EDT
Your partially right. State Organized militias were changed into the National Guard but State Unorganized militias were not and can be called up by the state at any time. Pretty much in a last ditch effort.
by LarryR63 October 2, 2009 1:01 AM EDT
Wolf1944....sometimes "common sense" ain't so common. You should know all about that. stuart-johns1, I read another of your comments earlier and can only conclude that you don't like guns, and you're afraid of them and don't trust one in anyones hands so you'd just like to get rid of all guns, yadda yadda. I have noticed that most of the anti-gunners pronounce the word "gun" different. Is that a GUN?
by matthewhavens October 2, 2009 10:31 PM EDT
Actually, you're completely, dangerously wrong. This type of thinking is a result of our horrible education system. I won't hold your elitist arrogance against you, because I'm sure you're only a product of your environment. The Bill of Rights was meant to guarantee no govt. infringement into our God-given natural rights. Read a history book, it would do you good. The founding fathers knew and studied human nature. Human nature DOES. NOT. CHANGE. There will always be evil in the world. And as such you will always need a way to defend yourself. Contrary to what you may hope, dictators and tyrants aren't much concerned by scathing editorials in the New York Times.
by native_warrior_USMC October 1, 2009 7:58 AM EDT
Here's a thought. Guns outlawed in Chicago, crime is rampant. Guns are outlawed in DC, crime is rampant. Guns are outlawed in NYC, crime is rampant. Guns carried by over 50% of population in Indiana, very low crime. Guns in every house in Southwestern NY, including an Indian Reservation, crime virually non-existent. Hmmmmmm.
Reply to this comment
by skeezix06 October 1, 2009 8:10 AM EDT
I doubt that guns are actually outlawed anywhere. But I guess its okay with you if we're shot by a well-meaning but stupid vigilante?
by prometheus21 October 1, 2009 8:33 AM EDT
Here's a thought.

Coming up with some subjective analysis of a situtation that you believe makes a statement validating whether or not a psychopathic population can keep some subjective analysis of criminal element and whether it is actually contained by the presense of guns as opposed to some other sociological trend or disorder, actually has absolutely nothing at all to do with the 2nd amendment which was not created to serve a role in containing crime occured by citizens.

If you want to take your analysis and compare it to a BROADER sample like most of the free world, and then lobby Congress to create a law supporting this psycopathic hypothesis, then that really is your route.
by biger-e October 1, 2009 9:34 AM EDT
I would rather be shot by a "well-meaning but stupid vigilante" than a malicious, evil, violent criminal. How often are well-meaning but stupid vigilantes shooting people and then ask yourself how often criminals are.
by Wolf1944 October 1, 2009 9:52 AM EDT
Guns are not "outlawed" anywhere, but some cities have common sense restrictions.

Take a look at Forbes' list of the 15 most dangerous cities in the US. New York, Chicago, Washington, Los Angeles--the cities the gun lovers say are so bad--don't even make the list. New York, in particular, is now considered one of the safest big cities. The last murder in Central Park was in 2002; it was performed with a rock to the back of the head.

Of the 15 cities on the list 10 are in the South where the gun laws are lax. Two are in Tennessee where they just enacted a law to let people carry guns into bars. Three are in Florida where anything with a pulse can get a permit to carry a handgun.
by declanm-2009 October 1, 2009 1:18 PM EDT
skeezix06: You wrote: "I doubt that guns are actually outlawed anywhere."

I take it you haven't read Washington, D.C. latest anti-gun ordinance (currently being challenged in court on 2A post-Heller grounds)...
by dontknowitall October 1, 2009 7:40 AM EDT
Evidently none of you have read the 2nd Amendment or don't have the common sense to understand it.
Reply to this comment
by prometheus21 October 1, 2009 8:16 AM EDT
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

You'll have to be more specifica on what YOU'RE referring to as common sense. Because I'm quite sure the U.S. Constitution is NOT subject to a "common sense" interpretation at all. Particulary when common sense is subjectively defined.
by dontknowitall October 1, 2009 8:28 AM EDT
My post was supposed to have been an attatchment directed to Stuart-john and Skeezix.
by fer60us October 1, 2009 10:14 AM EDT
Well, here is my interpretation. I think "the people" means people whose is part of the well regulated Militia not people in general. I don't think most of the people bearing arms nowadays are part of any well regulated militia, are they? And remember a State not necesary means a State, the US as a whole is a State...ie Secretary of State. This ammedment on my humble opinion refers to the military not to citizens.
by littlebigman21 October 2, 2009 12:02 AM EDT
Well, lets break it down. A well regulated militia. U.S.C. 10- chapter. 13- section 311. Look that US code up. Notice that there are two types of militia. Organized (National Guard) and Unorganized (You or I that volunteer with our own arms and ammo). Being necessary to the security of a free State. IE: Militias are there to protect the people and freedoms that we all share. ...The right of the people to keep and bear Arms... Obviously the founding fathers new we the people Endowed the right to bare arms to protect our rights, our family and our selves from others who would do harm. ...Shall not be infringed. IE: Shall not be change or violate or trespass against.
Is that good enough for all of you that think that the second amendment is just for the National Guard. It is not according to our founding fathers.
See all 79 Comments

About Taking Liberties

Declan McCullagh's iconoclastic take on politics, the economy, and individual rights. (Iconoclast: From Medieval Latin "iconoclastes," and from Middle Greek "eikonoklast's," meaning image destroyer.) Sample topics: economy, politics, interviews, free speech, property rights, gun rights, lessons in economics, individual rights, interviews, technology, features.

Add to your favorite news reader
google
yahoo
msn
  • MOST POPULAR