Econwatch
June 5, 2009 4:30 AM

Microsoft Warns Of Tax Law Consequences

Microsoft CEO Steven Ballmer offered an unwelcome economics lesson to the Obama administration this week: Higher taxes have consequences that Washington policy-makers may not especially like.

Ballmer said on Wednesday that if Congress enacts President Obama's plans to impose higher corporate taxes, it makes sense for Microsoft to move jobs offshore.

"It makes U.S. jobs more expensive," Ballmer said, according to Bloomberg News. "We're better off taking lots of people and moving them out of the U.S. as opposed to keeping them inside the U.S."

Last month, the president announced a plan to rewrite tax law by preventing U.S.-based multinational companies from "deferring" and keeping profits offshore, which can lower their tax bills.

The current U.S. corporate tax system is unusual because it taxes income that Microsoft and other companies make in other countries, even if they already paid foreign taxes on that income. That makes U.S.-based companies less competitive than, say, Irish firms that don't pay taxes on foreign income and aren't hit by double taxation; deferred taxation is a way to lessen the sting.

If deferred taxation is eliminated, it becomes more tempting for a company to move its headquarters from Seattle to Dublin. That's voting with your feet.

Which is why business groups have opposed the president's plan. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce says it will "impede growth in the U.S. economy, (and) cause the loss of jobs." The National Foreign Trade Council called it "counterproductive."

Microsoft says it employs about 95,000 people worldwide, and about 56,500 in the United States.


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by gspencer4 June 11, 2009 6:29 PM EDT
Economic value is created only when you grow something in the earth, extract something from the earth, or make (manufacture or construct) something that is consumable (or useful). Transportation, distribution, warehousing, taxes, sales, delivery, packaging and other similar costs are added to the value (cost) of the product that was initially created by these basic creative efforts.

Industrious nations like China grow wealthy and secure by making enough products to support their needs on their farms, factories and mines, plus earn additional currency by creating additional wealth by exporting products that they manufactured. The health of every other business depends upon these productive industries.

Borrowing US Dollars from China and other wealth generating nations to pay US citizens for raking leaves, environmental cleanup, mortgage bailout, union retirements, TARP, wars, business failures, government payrolls, and etc. to stimulate the economy does nothing in the long run solution to the foreign trade deficit problem.

The US Federal Reserve publicly received bids of almost 4% interest for $100 billion of freshly printed paper US Treasury securities issued in May 2009 public auctions. This was about double the rate expected by the Treasury Department. The US government will need to "borrow" at least $6 trillion more US dollars from the industrial manufacturing countries before the end of 2009 by conducting more of these same US Federal Reserve auctions. Who knows how high the interest rates will be bid at these auctions. China, and other wealth generating nations already hold a large portion of all US federal debt securities, and they are exchanging these instruments for title to US real estate, farms, agri-businesses, food supplies, dairies, forests, industries, breweries, hotels, factories, casinos, financial institutions, retail businesses, and most other assets located in the USA that they do not already own, since the US government does not redeem these dollars for gold.

US Foreign Trade Deficit: The USA has created a situation that US gold; US currency; and title to US property and other US assets are leaving the USA in amounts of annual value that are greater than they would be if US citizens were manufacturing the things that US citizens consumed. We must change this situation or we could become a post WWI Germany economically, and this could happen overnight.

A Trade Deficit is created when the USA importing, transportation, distributing and retail sales companies such as WalMart, Home Depot, NTB and etc. pay companies and individuals in foreign countries like China with US dollars to manufacture the things that these US businesses import, distribute, and then sell to the US consumers. Manufacturers such as GM, Ford, GE, Chrysler, GE, Westinghouse and etc. manufacture vehicles, appliances, and equipment made with imported parts that they paid the companies in the foreign countries with US currency to manufacture these parts for assembly of the finished product in the USA that is then sold to US consumers. What is the dollar value percentage of USA manufactured and assembled products that are made with imported foreign manufactured parts and/or sub-assemblies?

The US government also "borrows" US dollars (actually they sell freshly printed-paper T-Bills, US Government Bonds, and other US securities at public auction to China, private individuals, and other industrialized countries that earn US dollars mostly by manufacturing things for international trade) to pay US government expenses including negative balance of trade, wars, military jets with active duty military USAF pilots for the personal use of specially privileged members of congress (Pelosi), employee payrolls, government retirement checks, courts, federal police, failed business bailouts, cash bonuses to the various Wall Street forgers of SEC documents that contributed to political campaigns, Las Vegas corporation junkets for failed corporation employees, house mortgages for big spenders with bad credit, new multi-million dollar French manufactured personal corporate jets for political contributor's bankrupt corporations, pork barrel projects, research contracts, welfare, social security, Medicare, Medicaid, SSI, expensive corporate vacations, new infrastructure, wealth re-distribution, mental health, imported consumer goods and etc., and any other thing that congress and the president decides to use taxpayer money to acquire, build or just give to their political contributors and various other privileged individuals with borrowed US dollars. If taxes taken in each year are not sufficient to pay these expenses, then the government just prints more paper T-Bills, Government Bonds, etc. and borrows US dollars from people who are holding US dollars (foreign manufacturers) in exchange for these freshly printed T-Bills, Government Bonds, etc.
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by cbsrusso June 9, 2009 4:53 PM EDT
MS$ is full of it. They already off shore jobs. If you have ever been to their campus it is like going to little India.

Not only do these large corporations with their huge war chests of money need to be taxed more they need to be punished for sending jobs off shore and be restricted in bringing cheap labour into our country. Their lobbing should be restricted too especially when it comes to campaign money.

The needs of our country comes first not the needs of greedy monopolistic corporations like MS$
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by McHineguy June 5, 2009 7:27 PM EDT
Won't happen, remember BeOS? DR-DOS?

MS uses its de-facto monopoly to make sure other, better OSes don't make it to market, so getting them out of the way will make it easier for a developer to make a batter OS.
Posted by brianbwb-2009 at 4:07 PM : Jun 5, 2009

Yeah, I remember them. But we are mixing our criticism of Microsoft with the truth they told our government. No matter how they get there, big corporations wont stay on our shores.if the taxes are too high. You can say spiteful things like "good riddance" but the jobs will be gone. You can hope for a young replacement but if you tax that company it will leave too. Sooner or later, our country will be populated with hulks like GM and Chrysler sprinkled with a few graft masters like GE.
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by McHineguy June 5, 2009 7:08 PM EDT
I still do not see how zero Corporate Taxes can help Americans get out of this debt. What I do see is that Real Painful Sacrifice by all WE THE PEOPLE will do it.
Posted by lovegetpeace at 3:32 PM : Jun 5, 2009

I dont think we should have zero corporte taxes. Im just saying that we cant raise taxes on corporations much farther. There isnt enough tax money to cover our Federal deficit even if we triple taxes and cut corporate profits to zero. so, we have to either 1. Charge the people for what they get/take, or 2. give the people less.

So, you and I have agreed on this before. americans cannot afford to live like we do. Our government doesnt have money to give us free stuff, our companies cant pay for it, and we dont want to. Only thing left is SPEND LESS. And that means the people spend less and government spends less. We already tax business a lot and if we do much more they will move away like Steve Balmer says or die like GM
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by brianbwb-2009 June 5, 2009 7:07 PM EDT
"...My guess is that guy with the better operating system aint gonna build it here till you offer better tax deals anyway." Posted by McHineguy

Won't happen, remember BeOS? DR-DOS?

MS uses its de-facto monopoly to make sure other, better OSes don't make it to market, so getting them out of the way will make it easier for a developer to make a batter OS.
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by brianbwb-2009 June 5, 2009 7:04 PM EDT
MS' own business practices will kill it, they first monopolized the market, then they change the kernel of their OS so often that developers cannot write software that works for it, now they shake down the people who code drivers for hardware, forcing them to pay for "MS certification", otherwise Windows Vista will not load it.

Jost like the automakers, they will blame their problems on others, while begging for more corporate welfare.

Let them go the way of GM and Chrysler, it will actually be a relief. Maybe then we can abrogate their patents under "eminent domain" and free the computer industry to return to forward evolution.
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by labrat9999 June 5, 2009 6:46 PM EDT
Here's a company that certainly understand outsourcing American jobs!! And oh by the way, if they can't get cheap labor that way...they lobby for H1B1 visas instead to replace higher paid Americans.
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by lovegetpeace June 5, 2009 6:32 PM EDT
Where I think we disagree is you seem to believe that we have huge oportunity to raise taxes without consequences. That is only true if you calculate taxes incorrectly against gross income, instead of net income (which is still different than after tax income).
Posted by McHineguy at 9:54 AM : Jun 5, 2009

Nothing is free. The $13 Trillions and counting Federal Debt means American been getting too much free stuff.

To get out of this deep hole, Americans must swallow a 4th Great Depression or Pay higher taxes to pay what we all own.

Either way, American must Sacrifice because they have no easy way out.

Reducing the Size of the U.S. Government only increases our Debt by Bankfupting WE THE PEOPLE.

Read "The Great Depression of 1990' by Ravi Batra.

I still do not see how zero Corporate Taxes can help Americans get out of this debt. What I do see is that Real Painful Sacrifice by all WE THE PEOPLE will do it.
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by McHineguy June 5, 2009 5:43 PM EDT
I wish MicroStink would move off shore and we could get a real, functioning operating system. Balmer can KMA.
Posted by nextgenman09 at 2:35 PM : Jun 5, 2009

I think you better reverse the order of these steps. Lets get a better operating system, THEN let Microsoft move away. My guess is that guy with the better operating system aint gonna build it here till you offer better tax deals anyway.
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by nextgenman09 June 5, 2009 5:35 PM EDT
I wish MicroStink would move off shore and we could get a real, functioning operating system. Balmer can KMA.
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by McHineguy June 5, 2009 5:32 PM EDT
And now coming to a laptop in your neighborhood.

Talk is Acer will be using it on a laptop...
Posted by ioweign at 2:22 PM : Jun 5, 2009

That could be. Sooner or later Windows will be replaced. That doesnt change what Balmer is telling the Feds. If you tax a software business more than somone else, they will take their corporate profits somewhere else, and the jobs, and the technology. I just dont see why its so hard for people to see that.
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by McHineguy June 5, 2009 5:29 PM EDT
I say shut the door behind them. It's not as if they provide secure software anyway. How often do we hear about hackers from all over the planet compromising their software. Looks like we need a new US loyal company that will provide a secure operating system. Might be able to save that 50 billion a year we now spend to fight cyber terrorism.
Posted by rightaboutit at 2:25 PM : Jun 5, 2009

And another job bites the dust. I feel the same about GM and Chrysler.
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by McHineguy June 5, 2009 5:28 PM EDT
I think your quote comes from someone who is not familiar with our system of Democracy, or has another agenda, as it seems out of kilter.
Posted by nofoolling at 2:00 PM : Jun 5, 2009

My quote is often attributed to Alexander Tyler. But in truth its origins are unknown. It is often quoted when referring to democratic taxation.

The origins of the quote are not nearly as important as the truth of its logic. It makes simple sense to understand that as a democracy chooses to increase benefits to its people, taxes increase and fiscal responsibility fails. No entity can exist for long without fiscal resonsibility. Our US government included. Ask an Californian.
Reply to this comment
by ioweign June 5, 2009 5:22 PM EDT
Google Android
Posted by ioweign at 12:27 PM : Jun 5, 2009

Google Android is primarily an operating system for cell phones and Blackberry. Might be where the new personal operating systems are going, but not the big ones that are used to run business and government. worse, Google Android is an open system that has a small financial base and not much income tax revenue. So, if our goverment plans to raise money by taxing Android we are all in a world of trouble.
Posted by McHineguy at 12:59 PM : Jun 5, 2009

And now coming to a laptop in your neighborhood.

Talk is Acer will be using it on a laptop...
Reply to this comment
by McHineguy June 5, 2009 5:18 PM EDT
What if a higher tariff was placed on American flagged businesses outsourcing overseas? How would Microsoft feel about having to fight their way back into the American market? The United States is the only western country which double taxes its citizens living abroad, so I have no pity for multibillion dollar firms who seem to think they, above all others, deserve to be exempted from taxes which still will not increase the education, health or quality of life of the American people.
Posted by prof_s at 1:48 PM : Jun 5, 2009

Business is not intended to provide you with jobs or pay your taxes so your government can provide you with benefits. Business is in business to make profit or die. You can keep the business here and share in that profit through stock purchase, or you can live like they do in Bangladesh. No business except what foreigners build.
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by McHineguy June 5, 2009 5:15 PM EDT
What if a higher tariff was placed on American flagged businesses outsourcing overseas? How would Microsoft feel about having to fight their way back into the American market? The United States is the only western country which double taxes its citizens living abroad, so I have no pity for multibillion dollar firms who seem to think they, above all others, deserve to be exempted from taxes which still will not increase the education, health or quality of life of the American people.
Posted by prof_s at 1:48 PM : Jun 5, 2009

Its simple, really. If you place a high tariff on products coming in the country it only raises the price for products sold here. YOU pay that increase while the rest of company sales are free of US taxes. In short, WE lose.
Reply to this comment
by McHineguy June 5, 2009 5:12 PM EDT
Soon, the only thing made in America will be fast food
Posted by lost_america

That is not true. Fast Food will only carry the label:
Assembled in America from products made in various countries.
Posted by veils-2009 at 2:10 PM : Jun 5, 2009

Cant buy fast food if you dont have a job. Maybe the government can feed you along with all that health care its giving you.
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by McHineguy June 5, 2009 5:11 PM EDT
*****************************************
and have you forgotton that if we have no jobs we can't buy your products no matter how cheap you make them.
Posted by lost_america at 1:43 PM : Jun 5, 2009

No problem, if you cant buy the products then someone else has your job and they will buy them. Get wise America, this sint you against business, its you AND your businesses. If they kill you, they die; you kill them, you die. What does that say about your government? Its the big gorilla in the room and if it takes over, the business dies. Period. You figure out the rest.
Reply to this comment
by veils-2009 June 5, 2009 5:10 PM EDT
Soon, the only thing made in America will be fast food
Posted by lost_america

That is not true. Fast Food will only carry the label:
Assembled in America from products made in various countries.
Reply to this comment
by nofoolling June 5, 2009 5:00 PM EDT
Actually, recently, America has voted as if we are in the business of providing free stuff to a non-working populace. Not sure who we think is gonna pay for it. But here is a quote I find compelling at this time.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years."
Posted by McHineguy

Actually, all politicians promise rewards that could only come from public coffers. The only difference is the Dems claim to aim their rewards at the average citizen, while the Reps aim theirs at the rich corrupt elite.

In the end the rich end up with all the rewards anyways.

And we the people of America seldom or never get to vote on any issue nationally, but are instead left to rely on the greed of alternating elected bought and paid for masters beholden to the rich.

I certainly don't begrudge the little guy getting a small slice of the pie when the rich corrupt elite always garner 7/8ths of the pie, and any crumbs that manage to filter their way through the hands of average citizen still ends up in the hands of the masters.

I think your quote comes from someone who is not familiar with our system of Democracy, or has another agenda, as it seems out of kilter.
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