CARDINAL DOLAN SOT: I like Jeb Bush a lot.
NORAH O'DONNELL: Anybody else you'd like to see run for President?
CARDINAL DOLAN: (Laughs) Well yeah, Pope Francis. (laughs)
NORAH O'DONNELL: Plus, a year after tragedy struck the Boston Marathon, we'll hear from Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick about preparations for Mondays' race. And we'll talk about it all with Peggy Noonan of the Wall Street Journal, Michael Duffy of TIME, David Ignatius of the Washington Post and our own John Dickerson. 60 years of News because this is FACE THE NATION.
NORAH O'DONNELL: Good morning again, and happy Easter, and happy Passover. We're going to hear from the Archbishop of New York, Cardinal Timothy Dolan in just a moment, but first, breaking news out of South Korea, where the death toll in the ferry accident now exceeds 50, and hundreds are still missing. Seth Doane is in Mokpo, South Korea with the latest.
SETH DOANE: Good morning to you, Norah. That's right. The death toll has jumped significantly, in part because finally divers are able to get into that submerged ferry. They are describing scenes of working in murky water with heavy currents that are just pushing that submerged ferry back and forth. But they have been getting in there, and they have been pulling out bodies - some of them students. We were with family members as those names were revealed. There is a growing frustration also among family members. We saw protests on the street today and scuffles with police as family members have protested the slow rescue. And late today, we actually got into the hospital, where a crew member is being treated. We asked him about that slow evacuation, and he told us that he was waiting for evacuation orders from the captain. He said it was really only the captain's decision to make that call. I asked what it was like when they finally did make that call. He said that the ship at that point was sloping so much, it was just too difficult to reach most of the passengers, Norah.
NORAH O'DONNELL: Seth Doane, thank you.
In the Vatican this morning, Pope Francis delivered his second Easter message in St. Peter's Square. Our Alan Pizzey is there, and Alan, what was the Pope's message today?
ALAN PIZZEY: Good morning, Norah. Well, you may not believe it, but the piazza behind me was sun drenched when the Pope spoke, and there were about 150,000 people jammed in here listening to him. In keeping with the theme of his papacy, he derided what he called the immense wastefulness in the world when so many people go hungry. But the message is called "urbi et orbi" to the city and the world, and he used that to plunge straight into international diplomacy. He called on the international community to what he called negotiate immediately; boldly negotiate a long overdue peace in Syria. And the Pope and the Vatican are proving masters at tailoring the message to the moment, and noting that this year, the Orthodox Easter and the Catholic Easter fall at the same time. Some of the hymns were in Russian, and then there was a deft segway into a call for peace in the Ukraine. This Pope has been noted for doing things off the cuff, but he stayed right on his message today, which was translated into six languages for the official handout. He spoke only in Italian. And then when he did his final moment at the end of it all - he does his little tour in the Popemobile - this time he didn't go down the Via della Conciliazione - the main street leading to the Vatican - probably because it was packed with pilgrims. And he didn't reach out or kiss any babies or hug anybody. But he did do once again the kind of gestures that have pulled people into him and that make a lot of people listen to his message. So his second "urbi et orbi" message to the city and the world was very Francis, if you will, and it was extremely well received, Norah.
NORAH O'DONNELL: Alan Pizzey, thank you.
Earlier I sat down with a man who many think could be the first American pope, Cardinal Timothy Dolan, the archbishop of New York.
NORAH O'DONNELL: Cardinal, thank you so much for joining us.
CARDINAL DOLAN: I'm the one who is grateful, Norah. Blessed Easter.
NORAH O'DONNELL: Blessed Easter to you. What is your message for Holy Week?
CARDINAL DOLAN: Ah, listen, what should we think of? What are you covering on this show? You're going to talk about Ukraine, we're going to recall the slaughter in Boston a year ago, you look at all the darkness, the dreariness, the reasons to be sad and defeated in the world today. And what does Holy Week and Easter talk about? What is Passover talking about? The victory of good over evil. Light over darkness, life over death. We believe, Jews and Christians -- believers hold fast to the truth that God has the last word...
NORAH O'DONNELL: You know we have been doing polling at CBS News for decades and we just found in our last poll that now more people than ever feel that the church is in touch with their needs.
CARDINAL DOLAN: Good to hear.
NORAH O'DONNELL: Why do you think that is?
CARDINAL DOLAN: ...I think at a practical level, especially for us as Catholics, it's got to be Pope Francis. He has really ignited the imagination of the world, and for once, finally, it's almost like people are saying, "Wow. There's reason to cheer, there's reason to hope, there's a good guy. The good guys are winning in the church."...People want the church to succeed. People want religion and faith and spirituality to work. People in general are on the side of virtue and goodness, and everything that's noble and decent in the human person. And when you see somebody like Pope Francis that can tap into that and just seem to emanate that, and call that forth from everybody, people are going to take a second look at religion and say "Wow, maybe belief is worth it."
NORAH O'DONNELL: But what is it about Pope Francis?
CARDINAL DOLAN: I wish I knew and I wish he could bottle it, because I'd order a case (laughter), because I need it. You know what I think it is? Two words: sincerity and simplicity. We have a world that can kind of detect frauds. We have a world that is a little tired maybe, of marketing and polls and PR stuff, and here you've got a guy who is just so genuine and sincere, he doesn't need anybody to script him, he doesn't need any pro to say, "Oh, you ought to go there, you ought to do this," he just does it with a genuineness and a naturalness, that people are shaking their heads and saying, "This guy's the real thing..."
NORAH O'DONNELL: There's a question, however, about whether it's a lot of style, and whether it has been matched yet by substance --
CARDINAL DOLAN: Sure.
NORAH O'DONNELL: -- in terms of reforms of the Church. I mean, he has, for instance, apologized for predator priests in the sexual abuse scandal, but he's not yet met with victims of sexual abuse by priests. Should he?
CARDINAL DOLAN: I think he should and I think he will. Pope Benedict did, so I think he will. We've got to give him some time. He knows that's a towering problem. You know what he's showing us, Norah? You remember last year? You were -- I think you were there during the conclave, and the congregations that met ahead of time -- those ten days before we actually sealed ourselves in the Sistine Chapel and the college of the Cardinals met in confidence every day -- we spoke our mind, and Jorge Bergoglio, who was there, listened intently. And now we know it for sure, because he's doing a lot of stuff that the Cardinals said, "This has got to be taken care of." The Cardinals spoke about the sexual abuse of minors and said we cannot run from this, we cannot deny this, this is a hideous deep wound in the life of the church, and it must be addressed head on. He's doing that.
NORAH O'DONNELL: We also saw Pope Francis wash the feet of twelve people, including a Muslim and a woman. How remarkable is that?
CARDINAL DOLAN: Isn't that beautiful? And you know where that comes from, the last supper that was on Holy Thursday. We do that, I did that at St. Patrick's, I had twelve young people, from the --
NORAH O'DONNELL: -- but last year was the first time he did a woman, washed the feet of a woman.
CARDINAL DOLAN: Or any Pope did, you're right...but you're on to something. When Pope Francis said, I want kind of a -- I want these twelve people to symbolize every religion, both sexes, every background. And to think that he did it at a prison. I mean here's the Pope, who we believe represents Jesus on earth, we Catholics believe that, kneeling down and washing the feet and kissing the feet of those twelve people. Powerful gesture...
NORAH O'DONNELL: It was interesting to hear the Pope say in mass that he occasionally feels bored or lonely. When was the last time we heard a Pope talk about loneliness?
CARDINAL DOLAN: Isn't that beautiful? Yeah. He is...actually, Norah, when's the last time we heard Popes speak about themselves? ...I'd like to attribute it to the fact that, not only is he a genuine, good human being, he's also a Jesuit, as you know. Now, part of the Jesuit spirituality -- the Jesuits were founded by St. Ignatius Loyola -- St. Ignatius says, you know, part of the data, part of the stuff of our prayer and our meditation and our talking to God are our own experiences...when he talks about his grandma, when he talks about growing up, when he talks about falling asleep, when he talks about boring homilies, when he...(laughter)...those are good things, and most people in the world are saying, "Oh wow, I'm glad I'm not by myself, even the Pope falls asleep sometimes when he's saying his prayers."
NORAH O'DONNELL: What changes do you think the Catholic Church will make?
CARDINAL DOLAN: ...Whenever you talk about change, reform, transformation, which are big words, which Jesus often talked about -- first and foremost we're always talking about what? Inside, in the human heart: conversion of life. Going from selfishness to selflessness. Going from sin to grace. Going from hate to love. Going from bitterness to forgiveness. That's the kind of change conversion, transformation that is at the heart of the Christian message. You have heard Pope Francis say that...he says first and foremost I've got to change myself, and the I've got to call all of you to the kind of authentic change, the invitation and conversion of heart that's at the core of the message of Jesus. So that's the basic change, but I think we'll see some change in structure. We already see a change in style. You used that word, and I'm glad you did, Norah.
NORAH O'DONNELL: But I think the question that Catholics and many have from watching the Church is: yes there's been a stylistic change; yes we've seen public opinion change and people become more connected with the Church. Now comes the question about what real reforms will the Church make, and I hear from you that it's internal, that there aren't any plans for any changes at the Church.
CARDINAL DOLAN: Yeah. And we can't diminish that. But you've got to remember, Norah...Christianity, like Judaism, is a revealed religion. It's an inherited religion. We believe that God has told us certain things about himself and ourselves, and we can't tamper with that. Now, we can kind of redirect the way we teach it or express it, and, boy, this Pope is doing that on steroids. But to the substance of it: can't, can't, can't. Sometimes we wish we could. Okay. I wish I could change, for instance, the Lord's teaching on forgiveness, because there are certain people in my life I find it very difficult to forgive. But I can't change it! Because it comes right from Jesus; he calls us to forgive people. I wish he didn't. I've got to try to change my life to meet up to his teaching, not to tamper with his teaching.
NORAH O'DONNELL: Really? Who can you not forgive?
CARDINAL DOLAN: Oh, listen (laughter)...better not tell you...but I'm kind of using that as an example of a very tough teaching of Jesus. Most of the time when we think of the tough teachings we want to change, you know what we're talking about: sexual stuff, okay? Divorce and remarriage, or abortion or homosexuality. Those are the things most of the time. When you look at Jesus -- and Francis has reminded us -- what are the real tough teachings he gives us? Well: faith in him, even when life gets tough; hope in him, even when things are very depressing; forgiveness, love, mercy, reaching out to those doing everything in the world not to deserve our love. Those are tough teachings that I wish sometimes Jesus would soften, but he's not, and I've got to pass those on. And I can't tamper with them.
NORAH O'DONNELL: We've seen a remarkable change in the United States in terms of public opinion and legal rights for gay Americans. Do you believe that civil unions are wrong?
CARDINAL DOLAN: ...Here's what I believe. I believe that marriage is a given -- by God, because I'm a man of faith -- but also in the human psyche and human reason and the natural law, that marriage is, at its essence, is between a man and woman; forever, lovingly, faithfully, to bring forth new life and children. I believe we can't tamper with that. Would I do things to protect the civil rights of those who are unable to live up to that? You bet I would, whether that became insurance, whether that became housing, whatever. Do I believe that society could be affected negatively if we tamper with the definition of marriage? Yeah. And that's just not as a man of faith, that's just, I'd like to think, as a loyal American -- that if we tamper with that essential of human relationships - marriage -- we're sooner or later going to come to regret it.
NORAH O'DONNELL: But you've seen the polling. I mean, that's way out of step with most Americans now. When I say that: a majority of Americans, even Republicans.
CARDINAL DOLAN: Yeah, but, you know what, we're used to being out of step...like immigration, capital punishment. The Church is out of step on that too. The polls show that our people aren't with us. So we keep saying, "Well, our job is to teach it, to call people, to try to convince people, to invite people." Even when the polls are against us, we've got to keep at it.
NORAH O'DONNELL: I noticed that you invited former Governor Jeb Bush on your radio program.
CARDINAL DOLAN: Yes. And he's going to come to town.
NORAH O'DONNELL: Yes.
CARDINAL DOLAN: You know, to help us plug our Catholic schools. Yeah.
NORAH O'DONNELL: So are you pro Jeb Bush?
CARDINAL DOLAN: (laughs) I like Jeb Bush a lot. Whether I'd be for him as a presidential candidate or not, I don't know, personally. But I sure admire him, and I especially appreciate the priority he gives to education and immigration, by the way.
NORAH O'DONNELL: And why do you admire him?
CARDINAL DOLAN: Well because he -- I found him as I looked at what he did in Florida, Norah, I found him remarkably innovative. He was almost like, for education, what Franklin Roosevelt was for the economy. He said, let's see what works. We can't do business as usual. We've gotta help our public schools, we know that they're terribly flawed. What can we do to improve them? And he experimented. And he went out on a limb, and a lot of things, things began to click in Florida, such that he's rightly proud of this progress that he made in education. And, if you don't mind me blowing our own horn here, he says one of the best things going is Catholic education.
NORAH O'DONNELL: A champion, certainly, of Catholic education.
CARDINAL DOLAN: He is indeed.
NORAH O'DONNELL: So would you like to see him run for President?
CARDINAL DOLAN: Yeah, I think he -- I sure think he'd bring something. Yeah. He'd be good. Yeah.
NORAH O'DONNELL: Anybody else you'd like to see run for President?
CARDINAL DOLAN: (laughs) well yeah, Pope Francis (laughs)...
NORAH O'DONNELL: I want to talk to you about one of the cases that is before the Supreme Court. It's known as the Hobby Lobby case, and they're considering whether private companies should be exempt from the Affordable Care Act, known as Obamacare, and the mandate about whether to provide contraceptive coverage to their employees. Where do you stand?
CARDINAL DOLAN: I would be inspired by the Hobby Lobby...I think they're just true Americans. They're saying, "look: the genius of America is that religious convictions affect the way we act. America is at her strongest, at her best, when people can bring everything into the public square, including their moral, ethical, spiritual, and religious convictions. And the government should never force us to do anything that is contrary to those deepest held convictions." That they're fighting for that, willing to go all the way to the Supreme Court -- boy, they sure have my admiration.
NORAH O'DONNELL: But doesn't that set a dangerous precedent, if a private company can use religion to deny benefits to its employees.
CARDINAL DOLAN: It could. As you know, they're arguing that...and the Supreme Court, in the past, if I understand correctly, has said in general, the bias is on the side of the rights of conscience and religious liberty. There may be occasions when that is so detrimental to the common good that it will outweigh it. Is this one of them? I mean is the ability to buy contraceptives that are now widely available? By Lord, all you have to do is walk into a 7-Eleven or any shop on any street in America and have access to them -- is that right to access those and to have them paid for? Is that such a towering good that it would suffocate the rights of conscience? I don't think so, but I hope the Supreme Court agrees.
NORAH O'DONNELL: Monday is the anniversary of the Boston Marathon. In the year since, what has inspired you about the people of Boston?
CARDINAL DOLAN: Well, far be it for a New Yorker to compliment Boston -- but let me, okay? I found myself cheering on my friend Cardinal Shaun O'Malley, the archbishop of Boston, the pastor, who expressed such gratitude for Boston. Boston has risen up. It's an Easter story, if you want to talk about it. It's a Passover story. Boston has risen up from carnage, from death, from darkness to the most nauseating type of attack on a civilized society at an event that brings people together. They've risen from that. And the victims of that, their families, the whole Boston community, has reminded us once again of the message of Easter. Life is stronger than death. Hope is stronger than despair. And we're not going to let this evil -- we're not going to let this evil destroy us. Life goes on, and probably stronger and grittier than before, because we've come through that darkness. I thank them for that.