Does Torture Work? The Debate Heats Up
Richard Cohen may have hit upon the journalistic equivalent of that proverbial "eureka moment." In his Tuesday piece, the Washington Post columnist raised the question that became the cyber equivalent of catnip for the political blogosphere: What if Dick Cheney was right?
"Sacrilege!" screamed the left. "Told you so," countered the right. As for the rest of us, well, we're left with both feet planted firmly in mid-air.
I suppose that Cohen's liberal pedigree insulates him somewhat from critics accusing him of being a toady for the Bush administration's treatment of detainees accused of being terrorists, sort of a Nixon goes to China defense. I say "somewhat" because the torture question has become a touchstone issue for opponents of the Bush administration.
What really got under their skin was Cohen's question whether Cheney's statements about the efficacy of waterboarding, beatings and other techniques euphemistically referred to as "enhanced interrogation" might be true.
That ran against the growing conventional wisdom that harsh interrogation don't work very well. Keep someone in a stress standing position for two or three days over a period of months and they'll tell you anything to get some shut eye.
"Yet," Cohen said. "I have to wonder whether what he is saying now is the truth -- i.e., torture works."
Cohen had to expect the inevitable blowback-and it was not long in coming. At The American Prospect, Adam Serwer, ripped Cohen for being hopelessly muddle-headed about the topic.
"It really takes a startling lack of self-awareness to write a column about how you "know" that no longer torturing people has made America less safe, only to write another thumbsucking column a few weeks later innocently asking, "I have to wonder" whether torture works. Somehow, Richard Cohen can write several columns on the same topic without realizing he's contradicted himself. "
But Cohen's piece followed Sunday's "Face the Nation" interview with Bob Schieffer, where Cheney said that he knows of a couple of CIA memos supporting his argument that roughing up prisoners saved many lives.
"That's what's in those memos," Cheney said, adding that the documents refer "specifically about different attack planning that was underway and how it was stopped."
Cheney's acknowledgment invites more scrutiny unless, of course, you believe that the former vice president is playing fast and loose with the truth. (To be sure, Cohen at one point refers to Cheney as a "one-man credibility gap.")
"He insisted that "the evidence is overwhelming" that al-Qaeda had been in high-level contact with Saddam Hussein's regime when the "evidence" was virtually nonexistent. And he repeatedly asserted that Iraq had a menacing nuclear weapons program. As a used-car dealer, he would have no return customers."
It's a familiar refrain but as Cohen suggests, the release of the memos may be the best way for the nation to reach consensus over prisoner handling tactics that many allies have deemed to be torture. Meanwhile, conservative bloggers have picked up Cohen's meme to draw their own conclusions.
Writing in Commentary, Jennifer Rubin followed Cohen's lead to insist that the "Democratic Congress" can no longer "selectively declassify documents and steer the outrage to just the “culprits” they desire.
"If the objectives now are to “learn lessons,” hold everyone accountable for what they did, and explore whether circumstances justified their behavior I suppose we should have at it. And if Cheney is correct — and those memos provide evidence of the efficacy of these interrogation methods — then the president, who chose not to release them, has some explaining to do as well."
"Cheney may be politically unpopular, but he’s been remarkably successful in demanding that more than a partisan slice of the story be told. Forcing a public debate about the hard and very real choices in war, and reminding the country of the circumstances in which the Bush administration labored after 9-11 are no small things."
The Weekly Standard's Michael Goldfarb chimes in that despite his 18 percent approval rating, Cheney "is winning this argument against an incredibly popular president. Cohen offers one possible explanation for this the left might want to consider: he's winning because he's right."
While this gets sorted out, the best narrative of what enhanced interrogation looks like is this report from the International Committee of the Red Cross. Advance warning: the descriptions aren't for the faint of heart.
"Sacrilege!" screamed the left. "Told you so," countered the right. As for the rest of us, well, we're left with both feet planted firmly in mid-air.
I suppose that Cohen's liberal pedigree insulates him somewhat from critics accusing him of being a toady for the Bush administration's treatment of detainees accused of being terrorists, sort of a Nixon goes to China defense. I say "somewhat" because the torture question has become a touchstone issue for opponents of the Bush administration.
What really got under their skin was Cohen's question whether Cheney's statements about the efficacy of waterboarding, beatings and other techniques euphemistically referred to as "enhanced interrogation" might be true.
That ran against the growing conventional wisdom that harsh interrogation don't work very well. Keep someone in a stress standing position for two or three days over a period of months and they'll tell you anything to get some shut eye.
"Yet," Cohen said. "I have to wonder whether what he is saying now is the truth -- i.e., torture works."
Cohen had to expect the inevitable blowback-and it was not long in coming. At The American Prospect, Adam Serwer, ripped Cohen for being hopelessly muddle-headed about the topic.
"It really takes a startling lack of self-awareness to write a column about how you "know" that no longer torturing people has made America less safe, only to write another thumbsucking column a few weeks later innocently asking, "I have to wonder" whether torture works. Somehow, Richard Cohen can write several columns on the same topic without realizing he's contradicted himself. "
But Cohen's piece followed Sunday's "Face the Nation" interview with Bob Schieffer, where Cheney said that he knows of a couple of CIA memos supporting his argument that roughing up prisoners saved many lives.
"That's what's in those memos," Cheney said, adding that the documents refer "specifically about different attack planning that was underway and how it was stopped."
Cheney's acknowledgment invites more scrutiny unless, of course, you believe that the former vice president is playing fast and loose with the truth. (To be sure, Cohen at one point refers to Cheney as a "one-man credibility gap.")
"He insisted that "the evidence is overwhelming" that al-Qaeda had been in high-level contact with Saddam Hussein's regime when the "evidence" was virtually nonexistent. And he repeatedly asserted that Iraq had a menacing nuclear weapons program. As a used-car dealer, he would have no return customers."
It's a familiar refrain but as Cohen suggests, the release of the memos may be the best way for the nation to reach consensus over prisoner handling tactics that many allies have deemed to be torture. Meanwhile, conservative bloggers have picked up Cohen's meme to draw their own conclusions.
Writing in Commentary, Jennifer Rubin followed Cohen's lead to insist that the "Democratic Congress" can no longer "selectively declassify documents and steer the outrage to just the “culprits” they desire.
"If the objectives now are to “learn lessons,” hold everyone accountable for what they did, and explore whether circumstances justified their behavior I suppose we should have at it. And if Cheney is correct — and those memos provide evidence of the efficacy of these interrogation methods — then the president, who chose not to release them, has some explaining to do as well."
"Cheney may be politically unpopular, but he’s been remarkably successful in demanding that more than a partisan slice of the story be told. Forcing a public debate about the hard and very real choices in war, and reminding the country of the circumstances in which the Bush administration labored after 9-11 are no small things."
The Weekly Standard's Michael Goldfarb chimes in that despite his 18 percent approval rating, Cheney "is winning this argument against an incredibly popular president. Cohen offers one possible explanation for this the left might want to consider: he's winning because he's right."
While this gets sorted out, the best narrative of what enhanced interrogation looks like is this report from the International Committee of the Red Cross. Advance warning: the descriptions aren't for the faint of heart.
Best-selling author Mitch Albom on his first nonfiction work since "Tuesdays with Morrie."
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See all 128 CommentsAnd what does "tosser" mean?
Posted by johndevinejr at 11:05 AM : May 13, 2009
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No problem.......... but I'll leave you to work out what a tosser is!
Posted by hower4 at 11:21 AM : May 13, 2009
Ah, well, I should have know that.
Posted by hower4 at 10:51 AM : May 13, 2009
Thanks for posting better and clearer information than I have.
And what does "tosser" mean?
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Posted by notblue at 10:21 AM : May 13, 2009
Nonetheless it is important to get them to display their concept of right and wrong.
The more people who see that the ideas they have are amoral the better.
They cannot be convinced for they do not reason, they have belief.
Mental manipulation
Offers of Comfort in exchange for information
Building a rapport with the subject
Offers of reduced sentencing/freedom
Scientists, Psychologists, Physicians, Law Enforcement personnel, and intellgentce agents agree that this type of interrogation produces the most reliable results.
Waterboarding, sleep deprivatiion, extreme temparature changes, stress positions, starvation, and humiliation techniques have proven to elicit erroneous information or cause the subject to withdraw and refuse to answer. You try to recall the phone number and address of someone you've met 3 times in your life after being forced to stay awake for 20 hours and denied food for15.
Also take into account that many of the subjects have been found to be erroneously detained. It's even tougher to give information when you have no clue about the information they are trying to get from you.
This is a link to the U.S. Senate Juciary committee testimony on interrogation techniques. It has a lot of very good information from some guys who know a lot about foriegn and domestic interrogation, FBI Agents.
http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/Senate-Judiciary-Hearing-June-10-2008.pdf
Posted by notblue at 10:21 AM : May 13, 2009
You in fact are creating situations that do not exist to justify your willingess to torture human beings
All of your hypothesis are fictitious. You are using the exact logic that was used at Nuremburg by the Germans.
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Like many of us protested before the war began, the war in Iraq was totally bogus and illegal. But people like notblue still believe in the war and torture. Bush did generations of damage to the American psyche; notblue is a good example of that damage.
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Posted by notblue
Ther are differnt rules on how an individual person reacts to a threat and how a nation conducts its policy. They are completely different things.
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Posted by johndevinejr
You're wasting yoyr breath, they will never get it. No matter how you try to explain it to them, all they can come back is "but...but..they do it to us!". As if throwing honor and our nation's principles down the toilet is OK if it suits us.
To paraphrase the Romans, "I would rather die at the hands of a terorist than to live as a slave of our own government." Because, if we can justify torturing terrorists (when we never did before), how soon before we justify torturing regular prisoners and criminals? And once we justify that, how long before you and I are in the torture chair?
Posted by notblue at 10:05 AM : May 13, 2009
Please stop the imaginary nonsense, that is not what we are talking about here.
Posted by notblue at 9:44 AM : May 13, 2009
So far all of your posts are about imaginary scenarios. I am not interested in playing games with someone who refuses to even read the laws.
I have never interrogated anyone. I have no knowledge of any interrogation techniques. Therefore, I would have to use my moral judgements.
First off. Waterboarding is out.
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Posted by notblue at 9:27 AM : May 13, 2009
That is why there needs to be an investigation. And the way that the law works in the United States of America is that we investigate to determine if there is reasonable cause to believe that a LAW has been broken.
If the Attorney General believes there are extenuating circumstances he may choose not to prosecute. If the Attorney General chooses to prosecute, the accused are brought to trial and a jury determines guilt or innocence.
The laws are written. The do not involve your opinion or mine.
That is the way that justice works in the United States of America, is it not?
That is what I think should be done.
Posted by notblue at 9:27 AM : May 13, 2009
It is not a vague definition. It is part of THE LAW and you should read it.
The reality is that the information we obtained was acquired by lawful techniques used by the FBI. Your idea that I should imagine what tortures are acceptable and what is not, is gibberish.
The law is the law. My opinion is immaterial. Anyone who is so intent on justifying torture, is far too disturbed to be dealt with here.
Like I said, you are amoral.
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Posted by notblue at 9:01 AM : May 13, 2009
The extermination of tens of thousands on innocents is a phrase the you have pulled out of thin air. It is not a situation that has existed in this country in reality.
Nothing of the sort was stopped by torture, and not one person has said that thousands of innocents were saved by information gleaned via torture
Torture was not necessary in WW1 or WW2 or Korea or Vietnam and it is not necessary now.
It is only done by cowards. And your conjuring up tens of thousands of innocents to justify it is absurd. Even in London during the NAZI blitz, the English did not find it necessary to torture people.
You on the other had think it is ok, that is the result of being amoral.
Your moral standards are non-existant.
No matter how degenerate the enemy becomes, we do not need to match them.
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