Econwatch
March 11, 2009 4:45 PM

Is This A Depression? Perhaps, But It Depends

(CBS/iStockphoto)
While predicting recessions may be difficult, detecting when they've arrived is a bit easier.

The classic measuring stick is that a recession occurs when gross domestic product declines for two consecutive quarters. A committee of the National Bureau of Economic Research has a slightly different definition -- saying a recession is a broad drop in economic activity that lasts more than a few months.

In December, the NBER's Business Cycle Dating Committee declared that the current economic decline began a year earlier.

But there's no simple, universally-agreed-upon formula to judge whether we're in a depression right now. That's mostly because nobody (except for some free-market economists) thought the Great Depression would ever repeat itself, with the conventional wisdom being that world government and central banks had learned their lessons from the 1930s.

There were even articles like one in Foreign Affairs magazine, written by Berkeley professor Steven Weber and titled "The End of the Business Cycle?" Weber argued that "in advanced industrial economies the waves of the business cycle may be becoming more like ripples."

We know how accurate that prediction was. Those "ripples" became an economic tidal wave that's caused U.S. stock indexes to fall by more than 50 percent from their peak and home prices in some areas (including, we might note, near Berkeley) to fall by more than 50 percent.

Those dramatic price declines are hallmarks of a depression. So are bank failures, a credit crunch, increasing unemployment and government responses in the form of bailouts and massive new spending programs. The ShadowStats.com Web site calculates that if unemployment were calculated using the government's older methodology, unemployment would be around 19 percent.

An Associated Press article earlier this month noted that: "With each new hard-times headline, most recently an alarming economic contraction of 6.2 percent in the fourth quarter, it seems more likely that the next depression is on its way... Today's recession is already longer than all but two of the downturns since World War II. But for now, public officials are being extremely cautious about the D-word."

In a recent op-ed article, Harvard economist Robert Barro put the odds of a depression at roughly 20 percent.

"There is ample reason to worry about slipping into a depression," Barro wrote, estimating that a stock market crash leads to a 28 percent chance of an economic decline of at least 10 percent, and a 9 percent chance of a major decline of at least 25 percent.

Economist Nouriel Roubini, chairman of New York–based research firm RGE Monitor who warned about the housing bubble in 2005, told Time magazine in its March 3 issue that there's a 33 percent chance of a U.S. "near-depression."

Not everyone has been so wary of using the D-word.

International Monetary Fund chief Dominique Strauss-Kahn said last month, according to the Wall Street Journal that the United States, western Europe and Japan are "already in depression" and the "worst cannot be ruled out."

General Electric CEO Jeff Immelt has made depression comparisons, and countries like Ukraine were pretty clearly in depression mode even last year. Berkshire Hathaway last month reported its worst loss ever, and the World Bank said this week that the global economic pain was reaching levels not seen since the Great Depression.

An excerpt published Wednesday from Richard Posner's forthcoming book puts him squarely in the depression camp.

Posner writes: "The word itself is taboo in respectable circles, reflecting a kind of magical thinking: if we don’t call the economic crisis a 'depression,' it can't be one. But no one who has lived through the modest downturns in the American economy of recent decades could think them comparable to the present situation... It is the gravity of the economic downturn, the radicalism of the government's responses, and the pervading sense of crisis that mark what the economy is going through as a depression."

At some point, the answer to a recession vs. depression question becomes a bit academic. If you've lost your house and job and have moved your family into a motel room or a tent city near Sacramento, fine distinctions probably don't matter much.

But to investors and Washington officials, the difference is important. The Dow Jones industrial average is mimicking the rate of decline during the Great Depression, which eventually led to a 90 percent fall; if you think we're in for a repeat, you shouldn't merely exit the market, you should actively bet against it and perhaps buy gold and silver coins (and stash them in a home safe).

(AP Photo/Lawrence Jackson)
On the other hand, if the outlook is sunnier, as Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke, at left, believes, the U.S. economy will recover in 2010.

Here's one last possible measurement: the 1981-82 and 1973-75 recessions each lasted 16 months, meaning that if the current downturn lasts beyond April 2009, it will be the longest since the Great Depression. If the current malaise lasts through the summer or fall, as seems likely, the word "depression" will no longer be taboo.
Tags:
great depression ,
recession ,
depression ,
economy
Topics:
Housing Crisis
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by freeheeler99 April 3, 2009 6:59 PM EDT
The jobs report just came out for March, another 660,000 jobs went down the hole. Each of those lost jobs will reverberate through the economy as those newly unemployed hold on to what money they have. That'll lead to further store closures and job losses. We're in a job death spiral right now.

Meanwhile, we are still throwing billions a month at our unnecessary wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and we've expanded the Afghan war into Pakistan.

Obama's stimulus plan will place us even further into debt. We're borrowing Trillions from China, the Saudis, etc. This debt will greatly delay the economic recovery.

One in nine people in the US are now on food assistance.

Welcome to the Bush/Obama Great Depression
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by sjc_1 March 13, 2009 3:49 PM EDT
It is interesting to note that the 1st and 2nd quarters of 2008 were slightly positive. The 4th quarter 2007 was a bit negative, so if the definition of a recession is two consecutive quarters of negative GDP growth, we have a double dip.

4th quarter 2007 negative, 1st quarter 2008 positive, 2nd quarter 2008 positive, 3rd quarter 2008 negative, 4th quarter 2008 very negative. So to me, the recession started 3rd quarter 2008 and we have about a year more to go, if we are lucky.
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by tincup356 March 12, 2009 10:07 AM EDT
the only thing that is a fact.......our congress created this mess over a long time.....over 40 years... BOTH parties passed lobby dollar tainted legislation that led to all our economic problems,,,,,,last year both parties got almost 2 billion on lobby dollars from the very people they just gave hundreds of billions of bailout money to...that is awfully close to looking like they paid bribes for bailouts.....But then again both parties will tell you lobbying is not bribery ...they changed the word so it is not the same thing.....phucking TRAITORS...they all deserve to be brought up on charges of TREASON.
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by tbuckl March 12, 2009 9:40 AM EDT
Is This A Depression? Lie to me like all the other times. Tell me it is just a little mishap and nothing more. Ya right! If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it a DUCK! Get it.
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by quickly101 March 12, 2009 9:31 AM EDT
Its a recession if you have a job and your neighbor is out of work. Its a depression if you are both out of work. I think Ronald Reagan said that in 1980. I still think the word recession was coined because the depression of the 30-s was so devastating people just won't use the word depression.
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by mljohns00 March 12, 2009 12:56 AM EDT
It's not hard to predict a recession. Five years ago it became obvious that the U.S. would be in for a major recession due to uncontained spending, including occupying two countries.

We moved to a depression when the Government tried to hide the inherent inflation by giving away money at below-market rates, triggering a crazy housing spree.

The Vietnam War triggered the largest post-WWI recession. The term "stagflation" was invented to describe the results. But the money giveaway our Government turned what should have been a medium recession into a probably depression.
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by realnews12 March 12, 2009 12:53 AM EDT
Just as we had TARP 2 forced down our throats

Posted by libertydeath at 8:00 PM : Mar 11, 2009

Uh.....sorry, dude. TARP was passed while Bush was President. TARP 2 is just the 2nd half of the funding which was already passed under Bush.
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by ubrew12 March 12, 2009 12:36 AM EDT
Only $1.5 trillion in promised government spending is keeping our entire financial sector above water.

GM is going bankrupt. GM!!!
Citibank is a PENNY STOCK!!!

"Is this a depression?" What are you, stupid???
Reply to this comment
by elz523 March 11, 2009 11:05 PM EDT
The emperor has no clothes. We have a first class "Bulldinker" here. Bigger deficits, bigger wars, bigger spending, massive legislation rushed to passage without time for review. These are the works of a man with no previous in business of the executive functions of government. He doesn't plan, he doesn't think....he "hopes".

America chose to grant him carte blanche on his siren song. As lemmings to the sea, the masses followed.

Posted by azirine at 4:43 PM : Mar 11, 200

Which man is it fool? Bigger deficits, bigger wars, bigger spending, massive legislation rushed to passage. That sounds like a description of the Bush era if I ever heard one.
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by swin5 March 11, 2009 9:17 PM EDT
Not a depression yet, but when did the government in the past ever spend trillions of dollars to try to end a 'Recession'? Either those scoundrels in Washington know a Depression is coming or they are pretty darned determined to cause one.
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by andylance1 March 11, 2009 8:25 PM EDT
The economy is in recession.

The media is depressing. Obama's new press secretary is so boring that he puts reporters to sleep.

The media is depressed because they don't have anyone to complain about anymore.
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by iam4honesty March 11, 2009 8:19 PM EDT
BUSH DID THIS!!!

IT IS BUSH'S FAULT!!!

ONLY A FOOL WOULD TRY TO LAY THE BLAME ELSEWHERE!!!
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by wardoglrs March 11, 2009 8:17 PM EDT
The voters really messed up this time like always they never learn and now your going to burn. As Gerald Celente says. " When you lose everything and you have nothing to to lose you lose it".

This is what the Government wants they don't care about you or yours they are expanding Obama is the worst choice for these time Dr Paul warned you all about this impending collapse and you ignored him as did Max Kaiser and Peter Schiff.
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by trillion1 March 11, 2009 7:15 PM EDT
Well, PV, First off this econamic down turn is world wide. But I do agree we have yet to hit a depression. Stop gap laws were created, though largly ignored in 2000, but still enough for most people to protect themselves to some degree if they had the foresight. We did. Never incured a bill we couldn't pay tomorrow ,if need be, and always saved a little every month. Took a big hit on our stocks but we don't need them for our monthly income and are only in trouble if companies like GE and other deverisifed multinationals go bankrupt. And we never made more than $60K a year.
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by PVperson2 March 11, 2009 5:27 PM EDT
More doom and gloom *********, first off "the Great Depression was a worldwide economic downturn starting in most places in 1929 and ending at different times in the 1930s or early 1940s for different countries".
Comparing 2 years of recession to qualify as equal to 10 years of depression is hardly accurate.
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