McCain Says Obama Will Change His Mind on War if He Visits Iraq
(CBS)
From CBS News’ John Bentley:
After offering to go to Iraq with Barack Obama and pointing out for the past few days that Obama hasn’t visited the country since 2006, John McCain said he was “certainly glad to hear Sen. Obama was considering a trip to Iraq.” If he does go, McCain added, he will change his position on the war because of the success the U.S. is having there. “Sen. Obama was driven to his conclusion by ideology, not by the facts on the ground,” McCain said. “Success in Iraq is undeniable.”
Obama’s campaign said no trip was imminent, but had been discussed. "A trip abroad is under consideration, but there are no plans at this point,” said spokesman Jen Psaki. “Obviously Iraq is a place to consider."
If he does go, it’s not likely he’ll take McCain up on his offer to accompany him on the trip. Obama’s campaign has referred to the idea as political posturing. “John McCain's proposal is nothing more than a political stunt, and we don't need any more 'Mission Accomplished' banners or walks through Baghdad markets to know that Iraq's leaders have not made the political progress that was the stated purpose of the surge,” said Obama spokesman Bill Burton.
McCain also said he’d understand if Obama doesn’t want to go with him to Iraq, but not to call it a stunt. “It's long overdue – it's been 871 days since he was there,” McCain said. "I don't think that people who serve there would believe that a visit to find out the facts by a person who wants to lead the country would be a, quote, stunt."
Who does''nt have the Guts to Enlist and Go, Moreover There.
Cowards, that want him to Go, for Ulterior Motives, who themselves, would be Too Scraed to Visit Iraq, moreover Visit the Country.
You Sideline War Mongering ''Rocking Chair Patriots''
Go Because a 71 Year Senior Citizen ''War Monger'' Wants him to.
Why in the F--K would Obama Waste Time Debating with Bill & Hillary Clinton.
Talk is Cheap and Noone Talks Cheap Better, than a Desperate To WIN Bill & Hillary Clinton.
People like You, Who don''t have the Guts to Enlist and Go, Moreover Fight as Soldiers, Over There.
Cowards, that want him to Go, for Ulterior Motives, who themselves, would be Too Scraed to Visit Iraq, moreover Visit the Country, as an Observer.
You Sideline War Mongering ''Rocking Chair & TV Patriots''
Go Because a 71 Year ''War Mongering'' Senior Citizen Wants him to....Means Nothing
Why in the F--K would Obama Waste Time Debating with Bill & Hillary Clinton.
Talk is Cheap and Noone Talks Cheap, Better, than a Desperate To WIN Bill & Hillary Clinton.
U.S. Commander: Iran War Would Be ''Disastrous''
U.S. Navy''s Persian Gulf Commander Says War With Iran Would Cause ''Aftershocks'' in the Region
By JONATHAN KARL and LUIS MARTINEZ
May 28, 2008
RSS The top U.S. Navy official in the Persian Gulf warned in an interview with ABC News that war with Iran would be "pretty disastrous," with "echoes and aftershocks" reverberating throughout the region.
Vice Adm. Kevin Cosgriff, the top U.S. Navy official in the Persian Gulf, told ABC News that war with Iran would be "disastrous," and that the ideal way to interact with the country is through diplomatic methods.
Nobody I''ve spoken to suggests that going to war with Iran is a good thing," Vice Adm. Kevin Cosgriff told ABC News.
"The preferred path by far is the (Diplomatic Path), keep working with the international community to bring the right sort of pressure to bear on the Islamic Republic of Iran."
For years, there has been a swirl of speculation about the prospects of war, as the United States has accused Iran of arming militias in Iraq, trying to develop nuclear weapons and supporting terrorism.
President Bush and other top U.S. officials have repeatedly stressed diplomacy when it comes to Iran, but say "all options are on the table," including the military option.
The Democratic race for nomination is still very much alive %u2013 and most likely to be decided by superdelegates %u2013 as CNN points out clearly
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/20/primary.wrap/index.html
If you%u2019re tired of waiting around for those super delegates to make a decision already, go to LobbyDelegates.com and push them to support Clinton or Obama
If you haven''t done so yet, please write a message to each of your state''s superdelegates at http://www.lobbydelegates.com
Obama Supporters:
Sending a note to current Obama supporters lets them know it''s appreciated, sending a note to current Clinton supporters can hopefully sway them to change their vote to Obama, and sending a note to the uncommitted folks will hopefully sway them to vote for Obama. It''s that easy...
Clinton Supporters too %u2026. !
It takes a moment, but what''s a few minutes now worth to get Clinton in office?! Those are really worth !
Sending a note to current Clinton supporters lets them know it''s appreciated, sending a note to current Obama supporters can hopefully sway them to change their vote to Clinton, and sending a note to the uncommitted folks will hopefully sway them to vote for Clinton. It''s that easy...
Make all your fantasies come true. Political campaign eccentric stunts are us.
See in only 15 hours what many take several 15 month combat tours to experience.
Visit urban islands of hunkered down weary forces in a turbulent sea of now resentful locals.
Halt briefly at over 4,000 locations of brave US military sacrifices for a superfluous mission instigated by dubious motives.
Fast moving, non stop ballistic windshield tours along sniper alley and other nonsecure urban insurrectionary war ambush zones.
Excluded. Off limits areas that you are not supposed to see.
On the left we have the fabricated WMD hiding spot.
On the right there is the under producing Iraqi oil refinery that was suppose to pay for this war thus relieving the US tax payer burden.
Showpiece of failed national infrastructure and other tell tale signs that all those now unaccounted for billions of US tax dollars were ineffectively used.
Any non staged photo opportunity revealing tangible evidence of an unachievable safe exit strategy.
Any shred of proof that does not ultimately leave Iraq in the same entrenched mess should the US pull out now or later.
Any hint of hope that concludes this political travesty does not shackle US tax payers holding a foul smelling bag of debt for an ambiguous war.
American citizens both tax payers and military have already seen and suffered enough regarding this foreign land and futile cause.
Bush%u2019s plans to have the Iraqis Parliament pass a bill to turn over Oil Production to
5 Private Multinational Corporations for a long term 30 year contract with no (very little) provisions for the Iraqis People has failed to be passed.
The Republican Party%u2019s constant drumming of war and more war in the Middle East has seen the future oil market run havoc with uncertain and menacing forecasting of oil production and supply.
Visits to Iraq aren%u2019t necessary, the pulling back from, and allowing the Maliki Government to take control of their country is the only act that needs to take place. The American People have been imperceptibly taxed by the price of Oil driving up the cost of everything up caused by the further military threats of the Republican Government Members. The continued threat of further conflict in the Middle East will see a major recession not only in the United States but the entire world.
There is no part of Iraq that is not filled with propaganda--even McCain has no idea of what is going on, since the visits are to bases, the green zone, and very carefully chosen areas promoted by the Army to show progress. That is like taking a group of people to Disney World under armed guard, never letting them leave the park and insisting the rest of the country looks and acts EXACTLY like that park.
How accurate a representation of YOUR town, is Disney world? LMAO
Posted by jack3213 at 10:16 AM : May 29, 2008
+
Hello. Just how smart is it for any potential new leader to head into a war zone, especially when that leader is subjected monthly to jokes and allusions about assassinating him?
Obama should not go-and neither should McCain--it could be a set up--it would certainly be very poor judgment to do so.
Posted by bswalker12 at 03:09 AM : May 29, 2008
"wait til we really get into it with barack. maybe he''''ll keep his senate seat warm. he shouldn''''t miss too many more of those important meetings on the hill. because the White House will remain white lol."
Posted by bswalker12 at 03:15 AM : May 29, 2008
We see your point. It only took you 9 minutes for all of us to see that YOU are a racist. Rotflmao
Posted by bswalker12 at 03:09 AM : May 29, 2008
"wait til we really get into it with barack. maybe he''''''''ll keep his senate seat warm. he shouldn''''''''t miss too many more of those important meetings on the hill. because the White House will remain white lol."
Posted by bswalker12 at 03:15 AM : May 29, 2008
We see your point. It only took you 9 minutes for all of us to see that YOU are a racist. Rotflmao
Posted by b-easy63 at 10:43 AM : May 29, 2008
CORRECTION: MAKE THAT 6 MINUTES. LMAO
McCain Needs to Listen to the Top Naval Commander, who Agrees with (Diplomacy over War with Iran)
U.S. Commander: Iran War Would Be ''Disastrous''
U.S. Navy''s Persian Gulf Commander Says War With Iran Would Cause ''Aftershocks'' in the Region
www.abcnews.com
RSS The top U.S. Navy official in the Persian Gulf warned in an interview with ABC News that war with Iran would be "pretty disastrous," with "echoes and aftershocks" reverberating throughout the region.
Vice Adm. Kevin Cosgriff, the top U.S. Navy official in the Persian Gulf, told ABC News that war with Iran would be "disastrous," and that the ideal way to interact with the country is through diplomatic methods.
Nobody I''ve spoken to suggests that going to war with Iran is a good thing," Vice Adm. Kevin Cosgriff told ABC News.
"The preferred path by far is the (Diplomatic Path), keep working with the international community to bring the right sort of pressure to bear on the Islamic Republic of Iran."
For years, there has been a swirl of speculation about the prospects of war, as the United States has accused Iran of arming militias in Iraq, trying to develop nuclear weapons and supporting terrorism.
President Bush and other top U.S. officials have repeatedly stressed diplomacy when it comes to Iran, but say "all options are on the table," including the military option.
People like You, Who don''''t have the Guts to Enlist and Go, Moreover Fight as Soldiers, Over There.
Cowards, that want him to Go, for Ulterior Motives, who themselves, would be Too Scraed to Visit Iraq, moreover Visit the Country, as an Observer.
You Sideline War Mongering ''Rocking Chair & TV Patriots''
Go Because a 71 Year ''War Mongering'' Senior Citizen, who Wants him to....Means Nothing
Why in the F--K would Obama Waste Time with Plain, Mundane, An Forever the Same, John McCain on Continuing....
The Same D@mn Thing !!!
Hon. Senator McCain and Obama, besides each having many attributes and characteristics. The critical differences in my professional, political, and personal opinion are as under:
1. Presidential "Temperament and Integrity".
2. Little Washington "insider Versus outsider" connectedness.
3. Vision and mission for our nation future rather than past.
4. American policies first USA centric than other countries centric.
In my professional opinion one senator has it and the other does not. We need one for our Greatgrand Nation to address our all these challenges with a fresh, clean and new slate.
God Bless America. its diverse people, and our Greatgrand Nation.
Yours truly,
COL. [retd] A.M.Khajawall
Forensic psychiatrist, Las Vegas NV
Why do we stay ther? Because we are in a ''war economy'' and to have all these troops home would be disastrous
I think McCain needs to tour some VA hospitals
Or, better yet, since he is supposedly 100% disabled, he might want to stay for awhile.
Or, better yet, since he is supposedly 100% disabled, he might want to stay for awhile.
Posted by nepeebles at 12:11 PM : May 29, 2008
Maybe McCain should get a better perspective of how life is for the average American as a result of the Conservative Agenda.
May 29 (UPI) -- Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., says if he Visits U.S. Forces in Iraq, it''s to TALK to the TOOPS, not to Participate in a Republican Publicity Gimmick.
Obama, seeking the 2008 Democratic presidential nomination, has been criticized by presumptive Republican nominee Sen. John McCain for his lack of National Security Experience. To emphasize that point, the Republican National Committee lists on its Web site the number of days since Obama visited Iraq -- 872 as of Thursday.
Obama visited Iraq in January 2006 as part of a Congressional Delegation.
While considering visiting U.S. TROOPS in Iraq this summer, Obama declined McCain''s invitation to take a JOINT TRIP to the Middle Eastern country, a blog on The New York Times Web site reported.
"I just don''t want to be involved in a political stunt. ... I think that if I''m going to Iraq, then I''m there to TALK to TROOPS and talk to Commanders," Obama said. "I''m not there to try to SCORE POLITICAL POINTS or PERFORM."
McCain said he was confident Obama would change his position about ending the war and withdrawing U.S. TROOPS after his visit "because he will see the SUCCESS that has been ACHIEVED on the GROUND.''''
Ok, did we defeat the Revolutionary Guard? The Ba''ath Party? Install a democratic government and hold elections? Yes, a long time ago.
Please enlighten me on what we have "lost" besides vague, baseless references to imagined global dissatisfaction and loss of prestige.
Vote McCain 2008.
ps Obama says he wants "unity" but can''t even travel with a fellow senator? What a hypocrit.
Compares with about 350 suicide attempts in 2002, the year before the war in Iraq began, according to the Army.
Average of 5 soldiers Per Day tried to commit suicide in 2007, Army figures show
U.S. ;.WASHINGTON
(CNN) -- Every day, five U.S.
soldiers try to kill themselves. Before the Iraq war began, that figure was Less than One Suicide Attempt a Day.
The dramatic increase is revealed in new U.S. Army figures, which show 2,100 soldiers (Tried to Commit Suicide in 2007).
"Suicide attempts are rising and have risen over the last five years," said Col. Elspeth Cameron-Ritchie, an Army psychiatrist.
"Our troops and their families are under unprecedented levels of stress due to the pace and frequency of more than five years of deployments," Webb said in a written statement.
Sen. Patty Murray, D-Washington, took to the Senate floor Thursday, urging MORE HELP for Military Members, especially for those Returning From War.
"Our Brave Service Members who face Deployment After Deployment without the rest, recovery and treatment they need are at the breaking point," Murray said.
According to Army statistics, the incidence of U.S. Army soldiers attempting suicide or inflicting injuries on themselves has SKYROCKETED in the nearly five years since the START of the IRAQ WAR.
May 29 (UPI) -- Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., says if he Visits U.S. Forces in Iraq, it''''s to TALK to the TOOPS, not to Participate in a Republican Publicity Gimmick.
Obama, seeking the 2008 Democratic presidential nomination, has been criticized by presumptive Republican nominee Sen. John McCain for his lack of National Security Experience. To emphasize that point, the Republican National Committee lists on its Web site the number of days since Obama visited Iraq -- 872 as of Thursday.
Obama visited Iraq in January 2006 as part of a Congressional Delegation.
While considering visiting U.S. TROOPS in Iraq this summer, Obama declined McCain''''s invitation to take a JOINT TRIP to the Middle Eastern country, a blog on The New York Times Web site reported.
"I just don''''t want to be involved in a political stunt. ... I think that if I''''m going to Iraq, then I''''m there to TALK to TROOPS and talk to Commanders," Obama said. "I''''m not there to try to SCORE POLITICAL POINTS or PERFORM."
McCain said he was confident Obama would change his position about ending the war and withdrawing U.S. TROOPS after his visit "because he will see the SUCCESS that has been ACHIEVED on the GROUND.''''''''
Vote McCain 2008.
Before you make a statement, educate yourself, boob ! John McCain has been a frequent visitor to VA facilities and a veterans advocate for years, long before it became chic ! When did Clueless Barack last visit a vet center ? McCain did it without the cameras and media entourage. You are typical of an Obama supporter; devoid of facts, unconcerned about truth, only words in a state of flux. What a sorry lot. I only hope you can swallow defeat in November. You will be the wiser for it, so hold out Hope !
Even General Patraeus concedes that the political leaders have made little progress (i.e. its still a brothel)
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/13/AR2008031303793.html
...inspite of US soldiers now dying at 2005/06 levels
http://icasualties.org/oif/
McCain would escort Obama around in the green zone under heavy security and claim progress. After so many trips, McCain still does not get it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEtZlR3zp4c
Unlike, McCain, Obama has at least tried to define "success"
"Obama said he worries that the goals %u2014 completely eliminating al-Qaida and Iranian influences %u2014 may be impossible to achieve and troops could be there for 20 or 30 years in a fruitless effort.
"If, on the other hand, our criteria is a messy, sloppy status quo but there''s not huge outbreaks of violence, there''s still corruption, but the country is struggling along, but it''s not a threat to its neighbors and it''s not an al-Qaida base, that seems to me an achievable goal within a measurable timeframe"
Posted by layla61 at 02:21 PM : May 29, 2008
I''m sure glad McCain was right on the job with the dismal conditions found at Walter Reed Medical Center, and I''m feel so much more comfident that McCain will not support the new Iraq spending bill because of the pork the Republicans claim as the increased benefits for our Veterens.
The Republicans don''t support our Troops, Bush is going to VETO the spending bill.
Bin Laden knew he could never defeat America militarily but he thought he could draw us into a 50 year war in the Middle East that would collapse our economy like Afghanistan collapsed the Soviet Empire.
John McCain wants to double his bet and keep us there 100 years.
The mainstream ISM leadership is made up of Palestinian Christian Arabs who are also communists/anarchists and pan-Arab nationalists first, that hold to the philosophy of the Popular Front for The Liberation of Palestine, the second largest faction of the PLO. Using communist revolutionary practices of %u201Csolidarity,%u201D it has been these Palestinian Arab Christian %u201Crevolutionaries,%u201D aligned with Jewish- American communists and anarchists, that have been working so well on the campuses in the US and the UK.
Now, it has become the ISM%u2019s time to deconstruct religious dogma of Israel belonging to the Jews as is preached in US churches and to increase the number of black churches in America that are working in %u201Csolidarity%u201D with this program. Jeremiah Wright%u2019s church is one of them. Even though the national synod of the United Church for Christ rescinded a boycott and divestment plan against Israel, a wing of the UCC church keeps trying to get it reinstated. That wing includes Reverend Wright%u2019s Trinity UCC Church in Chicago. Few people know also, that there are many Muslim members of Reverend Wright%u2019s %u201CChristian%u201D church, a close ally of Sabeel.
Response: Your A!! is On Major Drugs. You must`ve been locked Up in a Asylum, with No TV Set.
McCain and Joe Lieberman were Photo opting and Playing as if they were President & Vice President.
It was McCain looking like a Nut on Middle Eastern Affiars, with Joe Lieberman, Correcting his Senile Old A!!....Please
You, McCain & his Geriatric Followers, are the Nuts.
You are typical of an Obama supporter; DEVOID OF FACTS, unconcerned about TRUTH.
Like the Un-Truths, you Typed, about McCain going to the Middle East, without the CAMERAS & MEDIA
Hahahaha !!!
This is not 1909..
Its 2008 and No Politician goes Anywhere, National or international, without the Press.
how do you Think Hillary was Caught, in All her International Lies..Dumb Dumb
The Bush Administration Gathered up all the Bin Ladens, via FBI Clearence and Flew them Home, Safely, Days After (911).
When the Bush Admin. could`ve Held & Detained them, until Bin Laden`s Release.
You Blind as Bats... Low Lifes.
I Guess Bin Laden and the Busg`s really have a Great (20 Yr) Relationship..Huh
Suckers !!
The Bush Administration Gathered up all the Bin Ladens, via FBI Clearence and Flew them Home, Safely, Days After (911).
When the Bush Admin. could`ve Held & Detained them, until Bin Laden`s Surrender or Capture.
You Blind as a Bat... Low Lifes.
I Guess Bin Laden and the Bush`s really have a Great (20 Yr) Relationship..Huh
Suckers !!
U.S. Commander: Iran War Would Be ''Disastrous''
U.S. Navy''''s Persian Gulf Commander Says War With Iran Would Cause ''''Aftershocks'''' in the Region
By JONATHAN KARL and LUIS MARTINEZ
May 28, 2008
RSS The top U.S. Navy official in the Persian Gulf warned in an interview with ABC News that war with Iran would be "pretty disastrous," with "echoes and aftershocks" reverberating throughout the region.
Vice Adm. Kevin Cosgriff, the top U.S. Navy official in the Persian Gulf, told ABC News that war with Iran would be "disastrous," and that the ideal way to interact with the country is through diplomatic methods.
Nobody I''''ve spoken to suggests that going to war with Iran is a good thing," Vice Adm. Kevin Cosgriff told ABC News.
"The preferred path by far is the (Diplomatic Path), keep working with the international community to bring the right sort of pressure to bear on the Islamic Republic of Iran."
For years, there has been a swirl of speculation about the prospects of war, as the United States has accused Iran of arming militias in Iraq, trying to develop nuclear weapons and supporting terrorism.
President Bush and other top U.S. officials have repeatedly stressed diplomacy when it comes to Iran, but say "all options are on the table," including the military option.
Note: You Sideline Patriots, Enlist and prove Your Bravery, or Your 18 Yr Old Son Or Daughters Bravery...Cowards.
May 29 (UPI) -- Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., says if he Visits U.S. Forces in Iraq, its to TALK to the TOOPS, not to Participate in a Republican Publicity Gimmick.
Obama visited Iraq in January 2006 as part of a Congressional Delegation.
While considering visiting U.S. TROOPS in Iraq this summer, Obama declined McCains invitation to take a JOINT TRIP to the Middle Eastern country, a blog on The New York Times Web site reported.
"I just dont want to be involved in a political stunt. ... I think that if Im going to Iraq, then Im there to TALK to TROOPS and talk to Commanders," Obama said. "Im not there to try to SCORE POLITICAL POINTS or PERFORM."
McCain said he was confident Obama would change his position about ending the war and withdrawing U.S. TROOPS after his visit "because he will see the SUCCESS that has been ACHIEVED on the GROUND.''
Note: You Sideline Patriots, Enlist and prove Your Bravery, or Your 18 Yr Old Son Or Daughters Bravery...Cowards.
May 29 (UPI) -- Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., says if he Visits U.S. Forces in Iraq, its to TALK to the TOOPS, not to Participate in a Republican Publicity Gimmick.
Obama visited Iraq in January 2006 as part of a Congressional Delegation.
While considering visiting U.S. TROOPS in Iraq this summer, Obama declined McCains invitation to take a JOINT TRIP to the Middle Eastern country, a blog on The New York Times Web site reported.
"I just dont want to be involved in a political stunt. ... I think that if Im going to Iraq, then Im there to TALK to TROOPS and talk to Commanders," Obama said. "Im not there to try to SCORE POLITICAL POINTS or PERFORM."
McCain said he was confident Obama would change his position about ending the war and withdrawing U.S. TROOPS after his visit "because he will see the SUCCESS that has been ACHIEVED on the GROUND.''
An average of more than 5 per day --
Compares with about 350 suicide attempts in 2002, the year before the war in Iraq began, according to the Army.
Average of 5 soldiers Per Day tried to commit suicide in 2007, Army figures show
U.S. WASHINGTON
(CNN) -- Every day, five U.S.
soldiers try to kill themselves. Before the Iraq war began, that figure was Less than One Suicide Attempt a Day.
The dramatic increase is revealed in new U.S. Army figures, which show 2,100 soldiers (Tried to Commit Suicide in 2007).
"Suicide attempts are rising and have risen over the last five years," said Col. Elspeth Cameron-Ritchie, an Army psychiatrist.
"Our troops and their families are under unprecedented levels of stress due to the pace and frequency of more than five years of deployments," Webb said in a written statement.
Sen. Patty Murray, D-Washington, took to the Senate floor Thursday, urging MORE HELP for Military Members, especially for those Returning From War.
"Our Brave Service Members who face Deployment After Deployment without the rest, recovery and treatment they need are at the breaking point," Murray said.
According to Army statistics, the incidence of U.S. Army soldiers attempting suicide or inflicting injuries on themselves has SKYROCKETED in the nearly five years since the START of the IRAQ WAR.
***************************
I am really starting to worry a bit about John''s mental state. Maybe all of this campaigning, in 2000, and now, has gotten to be too much for him. The above statement is really delusional. When Iraq makes progress, it will be because we withdrew. They will settle thier own differences in their own way, which is usually bloody in that part of the world. We are only making it worse.
Second, wasn''t it reported after Hillary had her rebound in Ohio and Texas that the prolonging of the Primaries meant Barack''s plans to go to Iraq and abroad just like McCain did would have to be delayed? Hence, all McCain''s pointing out is that he''s been in the Senate longer, and that his primary ended sooner - not sure why he seems to think that says anything about Barack . . . it just makes him look like he''s trying to turn the race for the Presidency into a ''pissing contest'' as they say imo (Also, we Dems are in the midst of pivoting towards the general, so if he''s winning points at this time, he should be chalking it up to his head start rather than a competitive advantage!)
That%u2019s all the American People want to know.
These politicians go to "combat zones", not to learn anything, but for photo ops, they are so well protected that they can''t see anything let alone learn anything other than what they are told by politically appointed Military leaders like Petraeus.
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by Torilin
May 30, 2008 3:57 PM PDT
- S_Temper
-
Reply to this comment
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See all 46 CommentsNo1 likes war. No victor only troops that have their lives on the line! You talk of war so lightly as if it''s a fictional creation. You dishonor our soldiers'' sacrifice by your ignorance!!