A Rare Chat With Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the president of Iran gives few interviews to Western journalists, but met with 60 Minutes correspondent Mike Wallace last August at his palace in Tehran. So we were able to give Americans a close-up look at this important Islamic leader who is outspoken, crafty and, as you will see, a challenging interview.

Ahmadinejad regularly manages to keep himself in the news headlines. He has created a stir with his frequent anti-Israel pronouncements. And beyond that, he has kept President Bush, among others, on edge as he continues to enrich uranium, he says, for the development of nuclear energy. But others believe that what he's really after is a nuclear bomb. And the U.S. has not ruled out military action, if necessary, to prevent that.

"The problem that President Bush has that, in his mind he wants to solve everything with bombs," President Ahmadinejad replied through his interpreter. "We are not working to produce the bomb. But if Mr. Bush thinks that he can stop our progress, I have to say that he will be unable to do that."

Asked what he means, Ahmadinejad said, "We want to have access to nuclear technology. We want to produce fuel."

And since 60 Minutes' visit, Iran has made advances with their nuclear program, interpreted by some as bringing Iran closer to building a nuclear bomb.

"Even before you were offered an incentive package by the Europeans to stop your nuclear power program, the enrichment of uranium, you rejected it. You said: 'Our nuclear technology is more valuable than your incentives. Do you think that you are dealing with a four year old child and can take away his gold for a few walnuts?'" Wallace remarked.

"With regards to the package, we welcomed the idea. We said that this is a step forward and we're going to study it," Ahmadinejad replied.

But Iran had no intention of stopping the program, and last year, when the U.N. first threatened to impose sanctions, Ahmadinejad said, "We don't give a damn about UN sanctions."

"Well, they cannot sanction us. They need us more than we need them. For 27 years now we have lived with American sanctions. But we did not correspond in kind. Respond, rather, in kind. Because we don't believe in these. These are unfair practices," the Iranian president told Wallace.

"You have said, quote, 'Any country that imposes sanctions on Iran will regret it.' How will they regret it?" Wallace asked.

"Well, whoever sanctions us will stand to lose out. They will be worse off than we, perhaps, will be. Because we are going to respond in kind. They need us more than we need them," Ahmadinejad said.

"They need you more than you need them?" Wallace asked.

"That is true. We can look after ourselves," Ahmadinejad answered.

Then the conversation turned to Iran's least favorite neighbor: Israel.

"Israel, you have said time and again, Israel must be wiped off the map. Please explain why. And what is Iran doing about that?" Wallace asked.

"Well, allow me to finish with the nuclear dossier first," Ahmadinejad said.

"No, you finished with that. You finished with that. Please," Wallace insisted.

"No, it's not finished, Sir. It's not finished. We are just beginning," Ahmadinejad replied.

"That's what I was afraid of. But go," Wallace said.

"Well, the Americans are overly sensitive. And, of course, the American government…I don't know why they're opposed to Iranian progress," Ahmadinejad replied.

"You are very good at filibustering. You still have not answered the question. You still have not answered the question. Israel must be wiped off the map. Why?" Wallace asked again.

"I think that the Israeli government is a fabricated government," Ahmadinejad replied.

Fabricated, he says, following the Holocaust, which he says may also have been fabricated.

"You said this – the Europeans created a myth. The holocaust. A myth?" Wallace asked.

"What I did say was that if this is a reality, if this is real, where did it take place?" Ahmadinejad said.

"In Germany" Wallace replied.

"Well, if an atrocity was committed in Germany or Europe, for that matter, why should the Palestinians answer for this?" Ahmadinejad responded.

The American administration has also accused Iran of supporting insurgents in Iraq.

"I am told that your revolutionary guards, Mr. President, are taking bombs, those roadside bombs, the IED's, into Iraq and furnishing the insurgents with the kind of material that can kill U.S. soldiers," Wallace said.

"We are very saddened that the people of Iraq are being killed. I believe that the rulers of the U.S. have to change their mentality," Ahmadinejad replied. "I ask you, Sir, what is the American Army doing inside Iraq?"

"You haven't answered my question, Sir. You haven't answered my question. Are your revolutionary guards…," Wallace said.

"On the contrary, on the contrary, I have responded to your question," the president interrupted.

"No you haven't," Wallace replied.

"We want security inside Iraq," Ahmadinejad said.

Wallace then asked: "What do you think of George Bush as a man and as commander-in-chief of the so-called free world?" he asked.

"Well, the 'so-called' says everything," Ahmadinejad replied.

"What do you think of George W. Bush?" Wallace asked.

"What do you think I should think about the gentleman? How should I think about him?" the president asked.

"Come on. Come on. You're perfectly capable of handling that question if you have the courage to answer it," Wallace replied.

"Well, thank you very much. So, you're teaching me how to be bold and courageous," Ahmadinejad said, laughing. "That's interesting."

"Answer the question," Wallace said.

"I think that Mr. Bush can be in the service of his own people. He can save the American economy using appropriate methodologies without killing people, innocents, without occupation, without threats," Ahmadinejad said.

And the president of Iran listed some impromptu statistics about the United States that he had on the tip of his tongue: "I am very saddened to hear that one percent of the total population is in prison. And 20 percent are illiterate. And 45 million people don't have a health care cover. That is very sad to hear."

And he was sad also not to hear any answer from President Bush to an 18-page letter he had sent, urging him to be less bellicose in his view of the world. The White House dismissed the letter as a publicity stunt.

"What did you expect to hear back from President Bush?" Wallace asked.

"I was expecting Mr. Bush to give up, or, I should say, to change his behavior. I was hoping to open a new window for the gentleman. One can certainly look on the world from other perspectives," Ahmadinejad said.

Then Ahmadinejad had a new message for President Bush: "Those who refuse to accept an invitation to good will not have a good ending or fate."

Asked to explain what that means, Ahmadinejad said, "Well, you see that his approval rating is dropping every day. Hatred vis-à-vis the president is increasing every day around the world. For a ruler, this is the worst message that he could receive. Rulers and heads of government at the end of their office must leave the office holding their heads high."

"Yes. How long has it been since the leaders of Iran and the leaders of U.S. have had any conversations?" Wallace asked.

"Twenty-six, twenty-seven years," Ahmadinejad replied.

"Do you have the least desire to resume relations with the United States?" Wallace asked.

"Who cut the relations, I ask you," the president replied.

"That's not the point," Wallace remarked. "Would you, the president of Iran, like to resume relationships with the United States?

"Well, we are interested to have relations with all governments and all nations…," Ahmadinejad said. "This is a principle of my foreign policy."

"I know that," Wallace said.

"Allow me to finish myself," the president said.

"Why don't you just answer, say yes or no?" Wallace asked. "Do you want to have relations now, after 26, 27 years, with the United States? What harm could come from that?"

"We are not talking about harm," Ahmadinejad replied. "The conditions, conducive conditions, have to be there."

And then, he wanted to leave.

"Time is over."

"One more," Wallace asks.

It is time for the night prayer, Sir," Ahmadinejad said.

"Last one. You have a special unit of martyr seekers in your Revolutionary Guard. They claim they have 52,000 trained suicide bombers ready to attack American and British targets if America should attack Iran," Wallace said.

"So, are you expecting the Americans to threaten us and we sit idly by and watch them with our hands tied…," Ahmadinejad said.

"And have Americans threatened you?" Wallace asked.

"I do hope that the Americans will give up this practice of threatening other nations so that you are not forced to ask me such questions. I wish you well and further success," the president replied.

"Thank you, Sir," Wallace said.

But there has been some progress. Last week, after almost 30 years of formal silence, American and Iranian ambassadors met face to face, to talk about security in Iraq. There weren't any breakthroughs, but both countries agreed to continue talking.

Produced By Robert G. Anderson and Warren Lustig