Face the Nation transcripts March 13, 2016: Trump, Kasich, Sanders
Guests included Donald Trump, John Kasich, Bernie Sanders, Anthony Salvanto, Jeffrey Goldberg, Peggy Noonan, Michael Duffy and Nancy Cordes.
JOHN DICKERSON, CBS HOST: Today on FACE THE NATION: The 2016 presidential campaign comes unglued with violent protests at Trump rallies.
And our CBS Battleground Tracker poll shows movement in key primary states.
Protests at Trump rallies this weekend in Chicago, Dayton, and Kansas City last night marked a shocking escalation in the angry political tone in America.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Don't hurt the person. Don't hurt the person. See, I'm a nonviolent person. Did you know that about me?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DICKERSON: We will talk to Donald Trump about the chaos and what he's going to do about it.
And we will hear from our CBS News reporter arrested trying to cover the Chicago demonstration.
And it's do or die for two candidates in their home state primary contests Tuesday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It always comes down to Florida.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DICKERSON: We will talk to Ohio Governor John Kasich about his tight race there with Donald Trump.
And after his upset win over Hillary Clinton in Michigan last week, we will talk to Bernie Sanders about his prospects going forward -- that and more coming up on FACE THE NATION.
Good morning and welcome to FACE THE NATION. I'm John Dickerson.
Five states hold primaries Tuesday. And we have new CBS Battleground Tracker numbers in three of them. Among Republicans in Florida, home state Senator Marco Rubio is running third at 21 percent, behind Donald Trump, who is at the top with 44 percent, and Ted Cruz, who is in second with 24 percent.
John Kasich is far behind with 9 percent support, but in his home state of Ohio, John Kasich is tied with Donald Trump at 33 percent. Ted Cruz is behind them at 27. Marco Rubio is far down at 5 percent.
In Illinois, Donald Trump on top at 38 percent, with Ted Cruz right behind him at 34. John Kasich comes in at 16, and Marco Rubio at 11.
But the big story this weekend is the anger out on the campaign trail. In Chicago Friday night, thousands of anti-Trump protesters forced Donald Trump to cancel his rally. Then Saturday, in Dayton, Ohio, a protester broke through a barricade and rushed the stage at a Trump event, startling the candidate and the crowd.
And last night in Kansas City, another round of chaos in the streets.
We begin with Donald Trump, who is in Chicago this morning.
Mr. Trump, you have said that you don't incite any of this activity, but at several of your rallies, you have said that protesters -- you said about one, "I would like to punch him in the face." Another, you suggested that it would be better if he was taken out on a stretcher. You suggested, if one thought about throwing a tomato, that your supporters should knock the crap out of them.
So, how is that not encouraging the kind of behavior we're now seeing?
TRUMP: Well, let me just tell you, first of all, with all of the rallies I have had -- and I get more people than anybody by a -- as you know, by a lot, thousands and thousands of people; 25,000 people is almost getting standard.
You haven't seen one person even injured at one of our rallies. And the cases you're talking about, the one guy was a bad dude. He was swinging. He was hitting people. He was a very bad guy. And the police came in and they really were very effective. And, frankly, some of the audience members had no choice but to be effective.
And I didn't mind that at all. But they -- or they would have been hurt, frankly. The other one with the tomatoes, I was told by the Secret Service that there are two people in the audience we have heard that have tomatoes, and they're going to throw them at you. They have good arms that could do some damage, OK?
And I said to the people before my speech started, if you see anybody with tomatoes, you got to take them out, folks. You got to take them out. And I think everybody understands that.
DICKERSON: You say no one was hurt, but there was a gentleman who is walking out. The video shows him being escorted out, and then a supporter cold-cocked him. He was, A, hurt, so there was somebody hurt. And he wasn't doing any damage when he was walking out.
He was cold-cocked. You had suggested in one of your rallies that you would pay for the legal fees. Will you pay for the legal fees for that gentleman?
TRUMP: Well, I'm going to review it. And I understand. And I don't condone violence. And I don't condone what happened to him and what he did, because he got carried away and it's very unfortunate.
But this kid was walking out. And I understand he had a certain finger up in the air as he's walking out. And this man became very angry. And you know what? Again, I don't condone violence, but the kid shouldn't have had the finger up in the air either, OK, if that's what he did.
So, I'm going to take a look at the tape, and I'll let you know.
DICKERSON: So, is that the threshold, is just the wrong gesture and it's OK to clock him? TRUMP: Well, I think that's a terrible gesture, if you want to know the truth. We can say, oh, it doesn't matter, but I think it's a terrible gesture.
And, you know, it's interesting. These people are disrupters. They're not protesters. They're disrupters. They're professional disrupters in some cases.
But that's all they do. They stand up and they disrupt. And if somebody did that at a Bernie -- a Bernie rally -- many of these people come from Bernie. And I have tremendous young people also. We have a whole level of young people. I can't even believe it, how young my audience is.
But if they ever went to Bernie's rallies and did the same thing, I want to tell you, you would be so angry with me. Nobody talks about it, but you would be so against me. It's a whole different standard when it comes to a Republican conservative vs. a liberal.
If people went to their rallies and disrupted their rallies like my rallies are disrupted, the press would stick up for them and would make all sorts of excuses about how terrible it is. So, we have two standards in this country. It's very unfortunate. The press is extremely dishonest.
DICKERSON: When you talk about these protesters, you said: "These are bad, bad people. We're going to take our country back from these people. These people do nothing."
Who are the "these people" in that case?
TRUMP: Well, I see people in the audience that I don't think they have a great future. I think they're disrupters. I think they are not in love with our country.
I think they protest and they disrupt. That's what they do. I don't know if they do it for a living. I don't know if they get paid for doing it. But they are not good people, and they are certainly not good for our country.
And the people that come to my rallies, these are extraordinary people. These are great people. These are people that are really disenfranchised in many cases.
Now, with that being said, we have very successful people. We have the smartest. We have the best educated. We have people that aren't educated as well. You know, if you look at the polls coming out of all these states that I have won, which is most of them, if you look at the polls coming out, I lead with Hispanics, I lead with women, I lead with very well-educated.
I lead in all different categories. Very proudly, I lead with evangelicals. I lead with veterans. I lead in every category. So, I have everybody there. But we really do have a young crowd. And remember this. If they went to a Hillary rally -- although nobody cares too much about the Hillary rallies, because there's actually no fervor there.
But if they went to a Bernie rally, everybody would say, oh, what a terrible thing. They disrupt me from talking. And I do the best I can with it. And, by the way -- and you have heard me say it -- don't hurt them. And I'm constantly saying to the police, don't hurt them, don't hurt them.
I don't condone violence. But some of these people are violent.
DICKERSON: Let me ask you a policy question.
At the debate, you talked about H-1B visas. You said: "It's something I, frankly, use, and I shouldn't be allowed to use it."
When you have talked about the bankruptcy laws, you talk about how you took advantage of them. When you and I talked about your taxes, you say you try and pay as little as possible.
If you are president, why would anybody follow the laws that you put in place if they knew you were taking advantage of those laws when you were in the private sector?
TRUMP: Because I know the game better than anybody, because I have been on the other side. I have built one of the greatest companies.
I did a filing which shows one of the great companies, great assets, very little debt, tremendous cash flow, some of the greatest assets in the world. But let me just tell you, I use the bankruptcy laws just like other very successful people.
I don't won't to use their names, but I could name 10 people right now, the biggest people in all of business. We do it. It's the game we play. We use the laws of the land.
DICKERSON: But why wouldn't people keep playing...
TRUMP: We use it. And that's the way we play the game.
Wait a minute.
As far as the visas are concerned, I'm not doing anything wrong. I think the -- those visas shouldn't be allowed. But they are allowed. They are part of the fabric of what you do. So, I'll use it. I mean, I'm a businessman.
Now that I have turned politician -- I hate to say that, almost, about myself -- but now that I'm running for office, I know the game better than anybody. I'm the one that can fix all of this stuff.
But when you start talking about -- I never went bankrupt. I never went bankrupt. You understand I never went bankrupt. But you take a look at the business leaders. Every once in a while -- I have 500 companies. I have so many different companies. And a very few, I will take advantage of -- frankly, by using the laws of the land, as every other major businessperson does.
DICKERSON: But that's what I want to ask, about the playing of the game, because when you were with Ben Carson, who endorsed you this week, you said he was pathological. And then both of you said, well, oh, that was just politics.
So, you're saying it's just the game. But if the most serious things you say about a person are just politics, it's just the game, then why isn't everything you're saying just a game and just politics and totally open to revision?
TRUMP: Well, that is politics.
I say bad things about people and they say bad things about me. And actually Ben wrote it in his book. I just read sections of his book. I read what Ben wrote. I'm not going to make up anything.
I could tell you about John Kasich. He's done a terrible job in Ohio, and people think he's done good job. He's losing his businesses. Real estate taxes have gone through the roof. He talks about not raising taxes. The real estate taxes in Ohio have gone through the roof.
He approved NAFTA. He voted for NAFTA, which has destroyed Ohio. And now he's voting for TPP, which is going to be worse than NAFTA. They're going to take all the car industry, everything else out. His coal industry is dead. And his steel industry is dead.
TRUMP: And, you know, I mean, give me a break. And you tell me about how good he's doing. He's doing terrible job for Ohio.
DICKERSON: OK. We're out of time, Mr. Trump. Thanks so much.
TRUMP: Thank you.
DICKERSON: Among those arrested Friday night at the Chicago Trump event was CBS News reporter Sopan Deb, who covers Donald Trump for the network.
He spoke to CBS News producer Charlie Brooks yesterday.
SOPAN DEB, CBS NEWS CORRESPONDENT: So, it was tense right from the start.
There were protesters, hundreds of them that took over multiple sections of the arena here last night. And there were many scuffles that broke out before the rally was supposed to start, but nothing too serious at that point.
And there were probably thousands of protesters outside. Eventually, there was an announcement made over the loudspeaker that said that Donald Trump was concerned about security and was postponing the rally, at which point there was total pandemonium inside the arena, lots of cursing, lots of people pushing and shoving on both sides, both Trump supporters and Trump protesters.
Eventually I went outside. And I saw a group of police officers running towards an area of protesters. So, I had my camera. And I jet along with them through this area.
And I get to this crowd and there's a man being arrested. He -- his head is bloodied on the ground. And so I'm shooting this, and the protesters at this point have shut down the street. And the police officers are saying, we need to clear the street.
And another scuffle breaks out. And I'm shooting this scuffle. And before I knew it, a police officer, at least one police officer, maybe multiple, pulled me down from the back of my hoodie and threw me to the ground and bashed my face into the street.
And then this police officer put his boot to my neck and cuffed me. I am continuously identifying myself as press. I said I have credentials. I can show you I have credentials. But they're not listening to me.
Eventually, they put me into the back of this police van, along with a man that was bloodied and another gentleman and -- in the pitch black. And then I was, in essence, handcuffed for maybe an hour before the police van took me to the station, processed me. They cuffed me again at the station, and where the police officer told me I was being charged with resisting arrest.
CHARLIE BROOKS, CBS NEWS PRODUCER: You have been covering this campaign for a while. Have you seen tensions build? How would you characterize the mood in these events over last couple of weeks or even a month?
DEB: There have been protests going on at Donald Trump rallies for months and months and months. This is nothing new.
However, there has definitely been a recent uptick. I have certainly never seen anything like last night. That was unprecedented. There had been other groups of coordinated protests at past rallies, but nothing as massive as what I saw last night.
BROOKS: Do you that have any impressions of the sort of people that were making up the bulk of the protesters?
DEB: Well, according to a student I talked to last night that was one of the organizers of the protest, he told me there were countless student groups there and that this was a coordinated effort going back weeks as soon as they heard that Donald Trump was coming here.
DEB: The person I talked to last night said he couldn't tell me how many student groups were involved because there were so many.
So, it's unclear how many groups were protesting, but there were certainly a whole bunch of different chants going on, including Black Lives Matter, vulgar chants in multiple different languages. It was certainly a diverse group of protesters.
But I will say most of them were young.
DICKERSON: Sopan is back on the campaign trail with Donald Trump today.
We now want to turn to Ohio Governor John Kasich, who joins us from Cleveland.
Governor, I want to start with something you said about Donald Trump. You said, "There's no place for a national leader to prey on the fears of people who live in our country."
How exactly is he preying on fears?
GOV. JOHN KASICH (R-OH), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, look, he's done a lot of name-calling, and he's created a very toxic atmosphere, where he's -- look, just -- well, you want start with immigration? Do you want to start with the things that he has said about Muslims?
Where does it end? I mean, it's just -- it's putting one group against another. And it's created a toxic atmosphere. And I'm not going to tell that, in his rallies, some of these people don't show up who want to create problems. That happens in all volatile situations.
But, you know, John, look, America's greatest strength is its people. And our greatest strength in people is when we're unified. And there's no doubt that he's run this divisive campaign. And it's concerning to me.
And at the end of the day, he's not going to be the nominee. And we're going to learn from this. And I'm going to win Ohio on Tuesday. We will be competing all across the country, and it's going to be a new day. You just wait and see.
DICKERSON: One of the things he says, and that others say, too, is that, well, the voters are just angry, and he's not preying on fears, this is just the nature anger that's out there.
Talk about that line a little bit, the difference between the voters who are angry and then the politicians who poke at that anger.
Well, look, I think, first of all, there are people that are upset. They're worried about their jobs. They're worried about their wages, which haven't gone up. They put their money in the bank. They get no interest. And their kids are still living in their home after they get a college degree.
These are real concerns. I said it in the first debate, that he was tapping into something out there. The reason I understand it is because I grew up in that environment as a kid. But the way you get those voters is to tell them how you can fix things. And that's why I always talk about the strength of my record, whether it was in Washington, helping this economy to take off, or whether it's been in Ohio with the creation of over 400,000 new jobs here.
So, I also think you can walk into a room, John, of a hundred people, and you can put them in really bad mood or you can walk into that same room and you can get them to be hopeful. I notice this everywhere I go, because, when I show up, I talk about the way we can fix things and how people need to work together and don't wait for somebody else to show up, begin to change the world in the world in which you live.
And the hopefulness of it, I think, works. And, frankly, since I have been so positive, it must be contagious, because the last debate was -- was sweet, right?
DICKERSON: Everybody behaved themselves.
Let me ask you, at that last debate, when everybody was talking about trade, it seems like, in the Republican Party, trade is now a bad word. You voted for NAFTA.
DICKERSON: Donald Trump is trying to use that against you. What happened to the -- who is the promoter of free trade now in the Republican Party?
KASICH: Well, it's sort of interesting, John, because I have always been a fair trader and a free trader at the same time.
In 2001, I helped the steel companies to get a 201 trade restraint, so they could consolidate and be stronger. I have been saying for a long time that we need to have an expedited process that, when people cheat, we shut their products down.
But that doesn't take away from the fact that we have to be involved in the global market, because, frankly, one out of every five workers are connected to it; 38 million Americans have jobs that are connected to trade. So, we do want to have free trade, but we want to have fair trade and an expedited process to say that, when you're cheating, we're going to take action against you.
And that would include manipulation of currency.
DICKERSON: Let me ask you about politics. You said you're going to win Ohio.
There was -- Marco Rubio said his voters should vote for you in Ohio. Are you saying your voters should vote for him in Florida?
KASICH: John, it's really hard to tell your voters to go vote for somebody else.
KASICH: But, look, I'm not campaigning in Florida. My focus has been in this state and in Illinois.
And, look, at the end, this is not like stop somebody. This is about my telling people the way the country ought to be run and the experience that I have had and why I have had success, so I can give them the hope that we actually can pull the country together, remember we're Americans before Republicans and Democrats, and solve our most vexing problems, frankly, using conservative principles.
DICKERSON: You mentioned Americans before Republicans.
That's actually an argument people are using against Donald Trump, saying -- and some of your rivals seem to be wobbly in terms of whether they're going to stick with that pledge and support him. Where are you on that?
KASICH: Well, I would like to support the nominee. But he's not going to be the nominee. That's just not going to happen.
But I said at the last debate he makes it difficult. And we will see how this goes. I mean, we have to -- he's got to have -- begin to lift people and stop dividing people. And the toxic environment must end. This is not making us proud.
Think of the videos that have been shown all over the world of people slugging it out at a campaign rally. There are people around the world that are shaking their heads, who are saying, what the heck has happened to America?
We will be fine. The people are smart. They're going to make the right decision, in my opinion.
DICKERSON: All right, John Kasich, that will have to be the last word. Thanks so much for being with us.
KASICH: Thank you, John.
DICKERSON: We will be back in a minute. Stay with us.
DICKERSON: And now to the Democratic race.
The CBS News Battleground Tracker has Hillary Clinton up almost 30 points over Bernie Sanders in Florida. In Ohio, the former secretary of state is at 52 percent, compared to Senator Sanders at 43 percent.
Illinois shows a much tighter race. Senator Sanders is up two points over Secretary Clinton, 48 to 46.
And we go now to Bernie Sanders, who is in Saint Louis this morning.
Good morning, Senator.
Donald Trump says he might start sending protesters to your rallies.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, you know, Donald Trump has been an incredibly divisive figure. Day after day, his rhetoric is inciting violence.
We have seen videos of some of his supporters responding to that rhetoric by kicking people, by sucker-punching them. We have seen recently charges leveled against his own campaign manager for assaulting a female reporter.
So, there's a lot of this feelings about violence coming from Trump's campaign. And I very much hope that he understands that, in a democracy, people should be allowed to go to anybody's rally, peacefully demonstrate without fear of being beaten up. So, I really hope he tones it down.
This is not good for the country.
DICKERSON: Do you encourage some of your protesters -- some of the protesters at the -- some of your supporters, I should say, are going to these rallies. Would you encourage them to keep doing that?
SANDERS: No, not to disrupt rallies.
And Trump, look, I don't -- I won't shock you, John, by telling that you Donald Trump lies a whole lot. He calls me a communist. That's a lie. To suggest that our campaign is telling people to disrupt his campaign is a lie. We don't.
And we have millions of supporters, and some of them will do what they do. But our campaign has never, not once, organized any effort to disrupt Mr. Trump's rallies or anybody else's rallies. That's not what we do.
DICKERSON: In the contest this week with Hillary Clinton, she has said that she was way out in front on health care back in 1993, and she wonders where you were on that issue back then.
What's your response?
SANDERS: Well, I think there's a video or a photograph or something actually of me right by her side.
Look, I have always said that Hillary Clinton did a very, very good job as first lady. She kind of broke the mold as to what a first lady should be doing. But to criticize me on health care is not quite fair, because I have been a leader in Congress from day one in the fight for universal health care, to make certain that, in the United States, we join the rest of the industrialized world, guarantee health care to all people.
In terms of the Affordable Care Act, I worked with Congressman Jim Clyburn on a major initiative to put $12 billion in the community health centers, so that millions of people now have health care who previously would not have health care.
I have led the effort to take on the greed and the unconscionable pricing of the drug companies who are ripping us off, who are charging us the highest prices in the world, such that millions of Americans can't even afford the medicine that they need.
So, I don't have to defend myself to anybody about the role I have played in health care. I do believe that we should move to a Medicare-for-all health care system which finally says that health care is a right, and to all people in our country, something which differentiates me from Secretary Clinton.
DICKERSON: Let me -- we got to talk about politics a little bit here.
On these -- Election Day, you had a big surprise win in Michigan, a real momentum booster. But, at the end of the day, Hillary Clinton got more delegates. That has happened on almost every Election Day we have had.
If that keeps happening, she's going to get the nomination.
SANDERS: Well, John, to everybody's surprise -- when we began this campaign, we were 3 percent in the polls. We were about 70 points behind Hillary Clinton.
Since then, we have won nine states, eight of them by very large margins. One in Michigan was very tight. Now, last week, all of the pollsters predicted that we would lose Michigan by 15, 20, 25 points. Well, we ended up winning.
I think we have a lot of momentum in Illinois, in Ohio, in Missouri.
DICKERSON: All right.
SANDERS: I think we are going to do better than people think in North Carolina and in Florida. So, we're looking forward to a very good Tuesday. And we're looking forward to win the -- winning the Democratic nomination.
DICKERSON: All right, we will talk about it after those results.
Thanks so much for being with us, Senator.
And we will be right back.
DICKERSON: Stay right here. We have got a lot more coming up on FACE THE NATION, plenty of political analysis, plus a look at "The Atlantic"'s jaw-dropping interview with President Obama on his foreign policy legacy.
We will be right back.
DICKERSON: Some of our CBS stations are leaving us now, but, for most of you, we will be right back with a lot more FACE THE NATION.
Stay with us.
DICKERSON: Welcome back to FACE THE NATION. I'm John Dickerson.
Joining us now is CBS News director of election, Anthony Salvanto.
Anthony, we're going to try and map out the next week. Let's start, first, one thing I found interesting in -- in the poll was, John Kasich challenging Trump in Ohio, doing much better there than Rubio in his home state of Florida. Why is that?
ANTHONY SALVANTO, CBS NEWS ELECTIONS DIRECTOR: Yes, one's a home state advantage, one may be a disadvantage. Now, in Ohio, people say the economy is good and Kasich has sky high approval ratings as governor. So that's an advantage. But comparably in Florida, Rubio's approval rating as a senator are mixed, even among Republicans, and he's got lower numbers than the rest of the candidates on being prepared to be president, and that's essentially the difference.
DICKERSON: All right. Let's talk about Ohio and Florida. Big winner take all states next week. Let's go through some of the scenarios here. It seems like for the moment, given where Donald Trump has been, the question is, is he going to get enough delegates to get the nomination or will he go to the convention with maybe a lead in the delegates but he will have been stopped from getting that magic number. So let's walk through some of the scenarios.
First, in Ohio and Florida, let's say Trump wins both of them, what's next?
SALVANTO: I think he becomes all but inevitable because all he would have to do from there, with the delegate lead in hand coming out of Tuesday, is keep winning and keep winning delegates at the same pace at which he has been. And I think the map ahead actually favors him in his ability to do that because you look at the states coming up and they have more of the kind of voters that Donald Trump has already been winning. You get your blue collar Republicans. You've got your suburban Republicans. He's been doing well with all those groups. And fewer of the kind of voters in the kind of areas that Ted Cruz has been winning. Fewer agricultural areas. Fewer rural areas. So we're headed through the northeast. We're headed through the west. you know, Pennsylvania, New York, et cetera. That's -- that should advantage Trump in being able to keep that pace.
DICKERSON: And if he wins those two states, it will suggest that all these attacks against him, that they're just not working and so they'd be unlikely to just suddenly work in the remaining states.
DICKERSON: Let's now look at the beginning of glimmers of hope, which is to say Trump loses one of those two states. What does it look like then if he only wins one of those two big states?
SALVANTO: I think that is a glimmer of hope for the folks trying to catch him, but it depends also who he loses to. So if he loses to Kasich in Ohio, and obviously that's a very competitive race, will it be seen as well -- that's a one-off. That's a home state win for Kasich, but where else does he go? And Kasich is still trailing him in delegates. And, you know, if Rubio happens to catch him in Florida, same thing, Rubio is going to be behind him in delegates and probably will be coming out of the Tuesday.
So the other thing here, John, is that the rules going forward from these states actually advantage the winner to an even greater degree than they already have. So they hand out more winner take all delegates, more winner take all delegates even by region or district, and so the difference between the leading candidate and the trailing candidates actually historically tends to -- it tends to open up even more.
DICKERSON: So in that case, though, if Trump only won one of those two states, he would have to do a little bit better than he's already doing to get the magic number?
SALVANTO: He'd have to pick up the pace a little bit. He'd have to pick up the pace. But just a little bit, because he'd keep that lead. Now, you know, if he does and he heads into places like a Pennsylvania like a New York and those other states and then tries to build on that lead, he wouldn't get there quickly -- we should say, he wouldn't clinch, and it might go deep into May, but he would still be on a trajectory to get there.
DICKERSON: All right, quickly, he loses both, what happens then?
SALVANTO: Ah, yes, he loses both, and that's a lot of hope for people who want to stop him and try to -- to, you know, try to stop him at the convention, I think. But there is at least one advantage out of this is that -- that voters do tend to try to wrap things up as we get deep into the process, do tend to try to consolidate behind a frontrunner. But if he loses both, then some of that -- that luster of being a winner certainly comes off and he certainly has a tougher, tougher road ahead because, and let's suppose -- let's not forget the other states voting, the North Carolina, the Missouri, right, if -- if Ted Cruz were to check pick a couple of those, now Cruz could -- could make -- make up some of the difference.
DICKERSON: Because Cruz is the closest to him in delegates at the moment?
SALVANTO: Because Cruz is closest in delegates. So let's not forget those. And they actually have more delegates in total, it's just that we're focusing on Ohio and Florida rightly because they're the big winner take all prizes, but there's a lot more delegates out there. So watch for Cruz to try and at least cut into that Trump lead. And then if Trump does happen to drop both Ohio and Florida, now we get competitive. Now we could see this thing go deep into June, maybe at a convention.
DICKERSON: All right. Well, we'll be asking you all the way along the way, Anthony. Thanks so much for helping us out on that.
SALVANTO: Thank you.
DICKERSON: And we'll be right back.
DICKERSON: And we're back with our panel. Peggy Noonan is a columnist for "The Wall Street Journal" and a CBS News contributor. Jeffrey Goldberg writes for "The Atlantic." Nancy Cordes covers Congress and the Democratic presidential candidates for CBS. And Michael Duffy is the deputy managing editor for "Time" magazine.
OK, Peggy, what do we make of --
PEGGY NOONAN, CBS NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: (INAUDIBLE) --
DICKERSON: We've got a lot to go here. What do you make of the rallies in the last couple of days and how much has Donald Trump contributed or has he not contributed to this at all?
NOONAN: Seeing the past few days, especially last night in Chicago, the disruptions, the yelling, the pushing, the violence surrounding the Donald Trump rally, and inside it, even though he wasn't there, he cancelled, he said for safety reasons. Look, I think there are two big reasons this is happening and -- and one victim group that hasn't been mentioned. Two reasons it's happening, Trump is cavalier and careless in his references to punch him in the nose. I wish I could punch him in the nose. If you punch him in the nose, I'll pay your bills. That's bad. That's kind of immature. That's not knowing that -- that America is always a country that when it's gathered and political passions can start throwing punches. So that's the first part.
Second part is, there are anti-Trump groups that are opportunistically moving on the fact that he's given them this opening with his wild statements and they're coming in and they're causing their own havoc and they're pushing people around. That's not good. The -- and we always have to remember, this is America, you have a right to come together. You have a right to have a rally, you have right to free speech to gather. It seems to me, on a forgotten victim group here is the peaceful people who want to go see Donald Trump and, you know, get him unfiltered, get a sense of who he is, decide who they're going to vote for. They must have been frightened last night. They saw people pushing and tearing placards out of each other's hands. It's too bad. I know people who have gone to Trump rallies, they're just curious, normal people and want to get a look at it.
DICKERSON: Michael, "The Washington Post" has a question today, they say, has Donald Trump lit a fire that now can't be contained? What's your sense of that?
MICHAEL DUFFY, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Well -- well, John, containment is not a word that anyone would use to describe this election so far, so I don't think we should start expecting it now. I think we all hope so, but I don't think any of us know. And, you know, watching that tape over the weekend, all of the tapes, and there -- and there seems to be a new one every couple of hours, I'm reminded that -- of something we all know, which is that we all live in different places now. Blue minded people live with blue minded people. And red minded people live with red, you know, sort of, we're different. And -- and it's odd that we're now deciding to come together at Trump rallies. That seems like maybe not the best place one would have the mixing that the country has needed for 20 years. But that's what's happening. There are two basically frightened groups of people. One, you know, the Trump supporters are scared of losing their livelihood and they aren't really familiar yet, fully maybe owning the multi-cultural, multi-racial, multi-ethnic society we're becoming and they're concerned about the Second Amendment.
And then there's the protesters who are generally non-white, come from a different part of the country and are concerned about, how will the rhetoric that Donald Trump is spewing help themselves and their kids assimilate. Those are -- both sets of real, genuine fears. And, unfortunately, they're being met at these rallies now.
DUFFY: And that's -- that is a scary combination.
DICKERSON: In a volatile pace.
Jeffrey, Donald Trump suggested there may be new meeting place for these two groups, at that's at the Bernie Sanders' rallies.
JEFFREY GOLDBERG, "THE ATLANTIC": Right.
DICKERSON: He suggested that he's going to possibly send people over to his rally.
GOLDBERG: Right. That was, you know, I -- I -- I thought maybe we'd be in a de-escalatory phase, but I'm naive. Obviously, this tweet this morning.
I didn't read the tweet first. I got an e-mail from a friend of mine in Egypt who told me about the tweet. The -- be careful, Bernie, or my supporters will to go your -- your rallies. And my friend from Egypt said, welcome to the Middle East, you know, because this is the way -- this is the way politics is done in other parts of the world. And we don't like the way politics is done where people are sending gangs of their supporters to other people's rallies to break them up and make violence. And there is a real fear now that these things are going to escalate. People are meeting at these rallies. They're already volatile. Someone is going to get seriously hurt. And -- and this -- among other things, we're not modeling good behavior for the rest of the world that looks to America for a certain level of political maturity.
NANCY CORDES, CBS NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, and Peggy -- as Peggy might put it, that would be bad because --
DICKERSON: That would be bad.
CORDES: As someone -- as someone who has gone to a number of Bernie Sanders' rallies, they're pretty peaceful affairs. Kind of like an Eagles concert where everybody knows the words, you know, and they show up ready to sing.
DICKERSON: I was thinking of The Dead, but that's fine. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
CORDES: And that's, you know, that's a great analogy as well, and they're bringing a lot of their little kids because, you know, these are pretty laid back affairs. So suddenly you've got them clashing with fired up Trump supporters and that could be kind of an --
DUFFY: Is Trump Metallica? I don't know what --
CORDES: That's a good one. AC/DC?
DICKERSON: We're -- we're -- we're -- we may be losing ourselves in the metaphor.
So, Jeffrey mentioned, Michael, de-escalation, which we had seen earlier in the week. There was a debate that looked nothing like the ones that had come before it. Everybody -- well, John Kasich mentioned that it -- they -- he thought they were all pretending to be him, so nice and so civil. What did you make of that?
DUFFY: Well, the calm before the storm. A feeling that even, I think, among some of the candidates that together they could not continue down the road, that the previous debate had been just out of control. But then they go back to their separate campaign events and people say things they shouldn't say as -- and Trump followed that with that remarkable line about how Islam hates us, which was within 24 hours of the debate. That was an astonishingly incendiary reckless thing to say. And -- and I -- and I would just, you know, add to that -- that we're going to need someone who's a lot more sensitive to that kind of way of speaking as a leader, whether you're nominated or not. But it's also a reminder that some Republicans, according to polls, do expect a kind of blunt talk about religion and they prefer it. And there's -- it's -- and -- and it's just going to be something that we have to live with, I think, with Trump until he decides, for whatever reason, to change the way he's campaigning.
GOLDBERG: Two quick points out of the -- the first of is that there is regret, I think, on the part of Marco Rubio, that he accelerated that process by responding (INAUDIBLE). The other thought I was -- I've been having the last couple of days is -- is that, I was wondering, who is the senior figure, who -- who -- who could straddle all of these -- is it a Colin Powell who needs to come out and simply say, you know what, we simply cannot talk about, for instance, Islam the way we're talking about it in this campaign because this is dangerous for the United States. And I -- I don't know who that figure or --
GOLDBERG: Or that group of figures is, but there's a kind of a need for it at this point.
DICKERSON: I don't know if that person exists, Peggy, because that person would be in the establishment, or be branded as such, and that immediately makes them suspect to all of the people who are creating the energy in the party.
NOONAN: It would have to be a person of grave respect who left, right and middle would listen to knowing they weren't pursuing an agenda but they were trying to look out for America. We've torn so many people and institutions down in our country the past few decades. I'm not sure who that person would be.
But let me throw a question to you, Mike. Sometimes when Trump says things like, Islam is our enemy, or whatever exactly it is that he said.
GOLDBERG: Islam hates us.
DICKERSON: Islam hates us.
NOONAN: Islam hates us. Is -- does he know what he's saying? Is the -- I mean he could say, look, there is a portion of radical jihaddist growing Islam, which has appealed to young people, which is violent they appear to hate us. You can't just say, Islam hates us. It's so wreckly (ph) imprecise. I think he's an intelligent man. Why doesn't he say it the right way? Why does he do it the wrong way?
GOLDBERG: It's a -- that's a very -- a question you've asked in your column really well, who really -- what does he really think? You know, Ben Carson, this week, when he endorsed Trump, and something I don't think all of us would have predicted --
GOLDBERG: Said there are two Donald Trumps. And I was thinking, no, there are about 22.
GOLDBERG: And -- and -- and -- or maybe 200.
DICKERSON: Although --
DICKERSON: And then Trump right after said, yes, there are two Trumps, and there he said, no, there aren't two Trumps. There seem to be two Trumps about the question of whether there were two Trumps.
DUFFY: It was more Trumps.
DICKERSON: That's right.
GOLDBERG: He's beginning to sound like a bridge hand. But I -- I -- I -- I think that he's such a salesman. And he's talking now about unifying the party. But I -- I think he's done so much damage with his rhetoric that no matter how much steaks or how much vodka you put on the dias, it's going to be hard to unify the party around him as he continues to roll up (ph) these delegates.
CORDES: And I do think it's interesting that Marco Rubio is starting to say that the things that Trump had said are making it more difficult for him to continue to keep his pledge --
DUFFY: He's right at the edge.
GOLDBERG: Well --
NOONAN: He is.
CORDES: That he will support the nominee. But the problem for him and so many other Republican leaders who are in this situation is, so what does that mean? If you don't support the Republican nominee, does that means you support Bernie Sanders or Hillary Clinton?
GOLDBERG: That's right.
CORDES: Does that mean you sit it out?
CORDES: And what does that mean for all of your Republican Senate and House candidates and everybody down the ballot in November?
DICKERSON: And it's that sense of unpredictability, too, that they -- let's -- let's -- you mentioned the Marco Rubio -- let's watch, actually, a moment of anguish of Marco Rubio talking about this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don't know. I mean, I -- I already talked about the fact that I think Hillary Clinton would be terrible for this country. But the fact that you're even asking me that question, I still, at this moment, continue to intend to support the Republican nominee. But it's getting harder every day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NOONAN: That's it, harder every day.
GOLDBERG: That was a real moment --
GOLDBERG: That was a real --
DICKERSON: Is it the question of whether he'll still support Donald Trump as the nominee?
GOLDBERG: Right. That seemed like a real moment of -- he's ashen.
NOONAN: Yes. Yes.
GOLDBERG: A real moment of anguish. And I would, based on that, I'm led to believe that he could not, in good conscious, support Donald Trump and not do a Chris Christie.
CORDES: Because they're all thinking about November and their party, but they're also thinking about their own reputations beyond November. You know, the political life doesn't end in November.
DUFFY: And we'd like to think that they're also --
CORDES: They have to --
DUFFY: We'd also like to think that they're thinking about their souls.
NOONAN: They're also thinking about America.
DUFFY: They're own souls and America.
CORDES: Right. Right.
NOONAN: They're thinking about the country. They're trying to figure out what is the best thing to do here. I thought Marco Rubio looked shocked by history, you know what I mean? Sort of ashen indeed, and just surprised at how things are turning out.
DUFFY: We're all a little surprised by history at the moment I think.
DICKERSON: Let's now switch to Democratic history.
Nancy, what happened in Michigan? How big a deal is it that Sanders beat Clinton?
CORDES: It certainly put a dent in her inevitability and her desire to shift gears and start focusing on the general election. She's going to have to spend more money than she probably wanted to in these primary states. I think it showed that the issue of trade is bigger than probably even the Clinton campaign thought it was in a manufacturing state like Michigan, and that is really a centerpiece of the Bernie Sanders campaign that free trade is killing jobs. She also focused in Michigan, as she has in other states, in boosting African- American turnout and it's true she did very well among African- Americans, but not as well as she has in the south, where she really, you know, wins like 90 percent of African-Americans. And there aren't enough African-Americans in a state like Michigan to put her over the top.
DUFFY: She lost 30 percent of African-Americans in Michigan, which is a -- is a danger point number for her, particularly as these Democratic races go north and to the Midwest to the West Coast because the non-white populations in the Democratic base are much smaller there.
So, Sanders is going to be in a better position moving forward for some of the reasons that Nancy mentioned, that there are just -- these states are going to be more friendly to more liberal candidate. And -- and we'll see, though your poll was fascinating because Sanders is ahead in that poll in Illinois, her home state --
DICKERSON: I know. What's no -- no home state love, we're all talking about how people are going to win their home states and I --
DUFFY: Her home state. And -- and the polls had her 20 up in Michigan and she still lost by three or four and she's only up 10 in Ohio.
GOLDBERG: I think you also -- you also made the point that Sanders lives off the land. I mean could go and go and go.
GOLDBERG: I mean this is not a high cost adventure, yes. DUFFY: And so we -- yes, we -- we may have gotten to the point this week that actually the Democratic race is beginning to elongate at the moment that we thought it was going to shorten.
CORDES: Right. Right.
DICKERSON: Will --
NOONAN: Is she really, however, I'm curious, is Mrs. Clinton really scared right now or is this just a pain in the neck that she's going to have to play out? Is she scared?
DUFFY: I -- well, I -- I can't speak to her state of mind, but she's an out -- she is clearly an insider in year that is so favoring outsiders. And -- and when you have Trump and Sanders threatening to sort of throw their outsider supporter at each other's rallies, it's a reminder --
GOLDBERG: She's also been in this move before.
NOONAN: Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
GOLDBERG: I mean don't forget about her experience.
DICKERSON: Although, boy, she must be getting sick of it.
Last 30 seconds.
CORDES: I would say she's probably more frustrated than scared. And she -- you're right, she has -- she said this week, you know, I've -- I've gone all the way to the end before, so I can do it again. But it's, you know, it's clearly not the way that she would hope that this would turn out.
DICKERSON: Yes, not a message of joy, having to slog it all the way out to the end. Thanks to all of you.
Jeffrey's going to stay with us to talk about his interview with President Obama, so please stay with us.
DICKERSON: And we're back with Jeffrey Goldberg of "The Atlantic," who has the cover story in this month's magazine.
An amazing piece, Jeffrey. I want to start with president -- and we're talking about President Obama and his foreign policy legacy. The red line on Syria is considered by some people, even senior people in his own administration, a big mistake.
DICKERSON: He sees it as the opposite.
GOLDBERG: Right. He sees it as a very proud moment because he didn't do the thing that everybody in the establishment and all of our allies wanted him to do, which was attack Syria, to punish it f or using chemical weapons. He sees Syria as the biggest slippery slope there is, and it's a moment when he now tells himself and tells me that he's proud of that because he resisted all of the people pushing him to go have a war with Syria.
DICKERSON: Does he -- what about the -- having said it out loud, does he at least acknowledge that that maybe wasn't such a great idea, saying there was a red line, because ultimately he doesn't cross it?
GOLDBERG: Yes, he -- he -- he didn't -- he doesn't regret it or didn't say that he regrets it. He thought that it was an appropriate brush back pitch. But what I think he's learned is, don't make these kind of statements unless you're going to carry it through. And that's what -- that was the big lesson, I think, for him.
DICKERSON: He also talks about free riders.
DICKERSON: And we hear this term or I hear this term a lot. Explain what free riders are and that concept around it.
GOLDBERG: Right. Free riders are American allies, mainly in Europe and the Middle East, who expect America to do everything for them and don't pay enough of their own share of defense and don't -- don't defend themselves and just are expecting America to do everything. And President Obama has, like a lot of Americans, some -- some level of resentment about that. And he -- and he spoke about that. And, you know, he -- he talks about -- about Arab states wanting to bring America into all of their wars against an Iranian opposition and sort of says, why do we have to do all this. And he -- traditionally Americans have looked at Europe and said, you guys need to pay more for your defense. It's a very, very American position he's taking, by the way, on this question.
DICKERSON: Yes. So in the Gulf States, you're saying what they're saying is, would you deal with Iran for us, take care of it for us?
GOLDBERG: Right. Right, right, right, right. There's this feeling that they want us to be their muscle. Oh, we're having a fight in Yemen, we're having a fight in Syria, can you -- you're the big -- you're the big guy. You know, you just deal with it for us. We'll hold your coat and you go fight. And I think President Obama is a -- is a guy who is not looking for new fights for America in the world.
DICKERSON: Is that connected to another phrase. I feel like we're going through the phrases of the Obama foreign policy, but the leading from behind.
GOLDBERG: Yes, which is an unfair description of what he was trying to do in Libya. In Libya this is precisely it. He said, you know what, we'll do this, but you, meaning Britain and France, this is your backyard, first of all, you've got to do all the clean-up. We have the -- we have the capability of bombing everything we need to bomb, but you've got to do this. And he told me, and this is a matter of some controversy in the last couple of days, he told me that he doesn't think that Britain and France did enough in the follow up and has some disappointment about that. And -- and, of course, they don't like to hear that, but it's probably true.
DICKERSON: Well, isn't that then the argument for why the U.S. has to do everything, because you can't leave it to somebody else?
GOLDBERG: I think President Obama is trying to train our allies in essence to -- to -- to grow up a little bit and take a little bit more responsibility, especially for -- for problems that are in their neighborhoods. You know, that we can't do everything any more.
DICKERSON: Is that how he can say that the lesson of Libya is that you've got to make sure there's something in place after the military action, because that seems shocking because I thought that was the lesson of Iraq?
GOLDBERG: Right. Well, Libya -- Libya was his Iraq in some ways, which is why he's so hesitant to go further in to Syria. In Libya he feels like he did everything right, he lined everything up, the allies said they would do x, y and z and then he told me, I mean he said very frankly, it didn't work. That's the quote, it didn't work. And so he -- he's learned a lesson, which is like don't get involved in these kind of problems.
DICKERSON: We have about a minute left. You've interviewed him so many times over the course of so long. What -- just give me your sense of what it was like to interview him here. He's probably looking towards the exits.
DICKERSON: What's his state of mind?
GOLDBERG: Well, you know, I've been thinking about this a lot because I -- I -- I was doing these series of interviews over the last four months, right, when -- where -- and we're talking about the limits of liberal interventionism, we're talking about the amorphous quality of deterrent credibility, right? We're trying to -- I'm trying to have these serious, mature conversations we're having them. And then you -- you look at what -- what people are talking about in the primary campaign about foreign policy and it's, you know, it's e-mails and Benghazi 'and we're going to build a wall, no we're going to build a bigger wall and it's -- and it's -- it's all this stuff. We're going to get China to do x, y and z. It's about Islam. And I have to -- I wonder if he, at this point, is sitting there alone at night sort of laughing at these candidates and saying, you have no idea what it's like to try to manage the world.
DICKERSON: All right, Jeffrey, thanks so much.
GOLDBERG: Thank you.
DICKERSON: And we'll be right back.
DICKERSON: That's it for us today. Thanks for watching. Until next week, for FACE THE NATION, I'm John Dickerson.
for more features.