August 23, 2010 11:05 AM

Heated Rallies Face Off over Islamic Center

(CBS/AP)  The proposed mosque near ground zero drew hundreds of fever-pitch demonstrators Sunday, with opponents carrying signs associating Islam with blood, supporters shouting, "Say no to racist fear!" and American flags waving on both sides.

The two leaders of the construction project, meanwhile, defended their plans, though one suggested that organizers might eventually be willing to discuss an alternative site. The other, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, said during a Middle East trip that the attention generated by the project is actually positive and that he hopes it will bring greater understanding.

Around the corner from the cordoned-off old building that is to become a 13-story Islamic community center and mosque, police separated the two groups of demonstrators. There were no reports of physical clashes but there were some nose-to-nose confrontations, including a man and a woman screaming at each other across a barricade under a steady rain.

Opponents of the $100 million project two blocks from the World Trade Center site appeared to outnumber supporters. Bruce Springsteen's "Born in the USA" blared over loudspeakers as mosque opponents chanted, "No mosque, no way!"

Signs hoisted by dozens of protesters standing behind police barricades read "SHARIA" - using dripping, blood-red letters to describe Islam's Shariah law, which governs the behavior of Muslims.

Steve Ayling, a 40-year-old Brooklyn plumber who carried his sign to a dry spot by an office building, said the people behind the mosque project are "the same people who took down the twin towers."

Opponents demand that the mosque be moved farther from the site where more than 2,700 people were killed on Sept. 11, 2001. "They should put it in the Middle East," Ayling said.

"If they build a mosque in the shadow of the world trade center before we're done rebuilding, what's next?" construction worker Andy Sullivan said addressing the rally.

On a nearby sidewalk, police chased away a group that unfurled a banner with images of beating, stoning and other torture they said was committed by those who followed Islamic law.

A block away was a smaller group of supporters, reports CBS News correspondent Michelle Miller.

"How far away is okay? A mile away?" Matt Sky, who was marching in support of religious freedom, asked Miller. "Two miles?"

Caught in the middle are Muslim-Americans, including some who are 9/11 families.

"Don't they realize that this is bigotry?" asked Talat Hamdani. Her son, Mohammad, died that day rescuing others. "To scapegoat all Muslim-Americans for the acts of foreign terrorists is equivalent to scapegoating all Christians for the acts of Timothy McVeigh."

Others feel differently. Thirty years ago, Neda Bolourchi's family emigrated from Iran to California.

"To us, it is the gravesite of our loved ones," said Bolourchi, whose mother, Touri, was a passenger on the second plane to hit the twin towers.

"Please, not here," she told Miller. "Nowhere as part of your religious freedom does it guarantee you a location."

Ironically, the location has been used as a mosque for months, while the new building would not even be visible from Ground Zero, Miller reports.

A mannequin dressed in a keffiyeh, a traditional Arab headdress, was mounted on one of two mock missiles that were part of an anti-mosque installation. One missile was inscribed with the words: "Again? Freedom Targeted by Religion"; the other with "Obama: With a middle name Hussein. We understand. Bloomberg: What is your excuse?"

New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg has fiercely defended plans for the proposed mosque, saying that the right "to practice your religion was one of the real reasons America was founded."

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The mosque project is being led by Rauf and his wife, Daisy Khan, who insist the center will promote moderate Islam. The dispute has sparked a story=6793375>national debate on religious freedom and American values and is becoming an issue on the campaign trail ahead of the midterm elections. Republicans have been critical of President Barack Obama's stance: He has said the Muslims have the right to build the center at the site but has not commented on whether he thinks they should.

Rauf is in the middle of a Mideast trip funded by the U.S. State Department that is intended to promote religious tolerance. He told a gathering Sunday at the U.S. ambassador's residence in the Persian Gulf state of Bahrain that he took heart from the dispute over the mosque, saying "the fact we are getting this kind of attention is a sign of success."

NYC Mosque Imam Looking to "Americanize Islam"
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Giuliani: Move Mosque away from Ground Zero

"It is my hope that people will understand more," Rauf said without elaborating.

Democratic New York Gov. David Paterson has suggested that state land farther from ground zero be used for the center. Khan, executive director of the American Society for Muslim Advancement, expressed some openness to that idea on ABC's "This Week with Christiane Amanpour," but said she would have to meet with the center's other "stakeholders" first.

"We want to build bridges," Khan said. "We don't want to create conflict, this is not where we were coming from. So, this is an opportunity for us to really turn this around and make this into something very, very positive. So we will meet, and we will do what is right for everyone."

But Khan also said the angry reaction to the project "is like a metastasized anti-Semitism."

"It's not even Islamophobia. It's beyond Islamophobia," she said. "It's hate of Muslims."

At the pro-mosque rally, staged a block away from opponents' demonstration, several hundred people chanted, "Muslims are welcome here! We say no to racist fear!"

Dr. Ali Akram, a 39-year-old Brooklyn physician, came with his three sons and an 11-year-old nephew waving an American flag. He noted that scores of Muslims were among those who died in the towers, and he called those who oppose the mosque "un-American."

"They teach their children about the freedom of religion in America - but they don't practice what they preach," Akram said.

John Green, who lost a friend in the attacks, said that although organizers have the right to build the project, "I think if they moved it, they would get the respect of more Americans than if they play hardball." He was demonstrating in the group of mosque opponents.

Gila Barzvi, whose son, Guy, was killed in the towers, stood with mosque opponents, clutching a large photo of her son with both hands.

"This is sacred ground and it's where my son was buried," the native Israeli from Queens said. She said the mosque would be "like a knife in our hearts."

She was joined by a close friend, Kobi Mor, who flew from San Francisco to participate in the rally.

If the mosque gets built, "we will bombard it," Mor said. He would not elaborate but added that he believes the project "will never happen."

Rauf, in an interview with Bahrain's Al Wasat newspaper, said America's sweeping constitutional rights are more in line with Islamic principles than the limits imposed by some Muslim nations.

"American Muslims have the right to practice their religion in accordance with the Constitution of the United States," Rauf said. "I see the article of independence as more compliant with the principles of Islam than what is available in many of the current Muslim countries."

A portion of the Al Wasat interview - to be published Monday - was seen Sunday by The Associated Press.

© 2010 CBS Interactive Inc. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. The Associated Press contributed to this report.
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by John_Rational August 27, 2010 7:02 PM EDT
I have tried to counter misguided hatred of all Muslims in these discussions. I understand that American Muslims are afriad of Jihadists and misguided Americans, but you must cast aside your fear and speak up in such discussions.
It is not enough to speak out on your web sites and in your own publications. Few non-Muslim Americans visit such sites or read such publications. More non-Muslims probably should but most don't. I know American Muslims are virtually all loyal Americans who wish only love and peace to all others, but when I, as a Christian, defend you, my knowledge of Islam can't help but be questioned. It would be so much more enlightening if more Muslims joined discussions such as this. Imams would be best but any Muslim will do.
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by John_Rational August 28, 2010 3:33 PM EDT
So now BTFAMB has enlightened us once more. It seems all Muslims
are liers because the Koran teaches them to lie. Perhaps you weren't
implying that the Koran instructed them to lie, but if not then who or what did? You've certainly come up with another reason for Muslims not to speak out. Why should they if they will not be believed? Can you give us a reference for this Muslim teaching that one is to lie to non-Muslims?
by John_Rational August 27, 2010 4:20 PM EDT
by bigthoughtsforasmallblog August 27, 2010 2:59 AM EDT
?Janet Reno's ordering the assault of the Branch Davidians in Waco. That's what motivated him.?

McVeigh attacked because of a perceived injustice done to a Christian Extremist Group. If someone attacked because of a perceived injustice done to a Muslim group, what sort of terrorism would you call that?

by bigthoughtsforasmallblog August 27, 2010 2:59 AM EDT
?The anti government nutjobs will have to own the deaths of the 173. But sorry, only nutjobs just like the rest of the groups that you site. In those groups you mention, they are all anti government fringe groups, any it's no surprise, no murder and carnage.?

Every one of those groups are classified as Christian extremist groups by the FBI, and the ONLY reason they haven't succeeded in their intent of murder and carnage is BECAUSE the FBI and other authorities have been watching them closely. BTW that is the same reason the jihadists have not been able to successfully attack since 9/11.

Your thesis seems to be that Christians are better because the violence we do is less likely to be motivated by our devotion to the Bible, whereas the violence that Muslims do is mostly inspired by the Koran. I think it is inspired by bad Imam's misinterpretations
of the Koran. Just as abortion clinic attacks are inspired by bad Ministers misinterpretations of the Bible. Thank goodness the authorities in this country are extremely good at stopping such attacks before they happen. It is sad that the authorities in some other countries are not so good at stopping such attacks. But nothing anybody has said proves that all of Islam is at war with the west.

33% of the world population is Christian, and they tend to live in the developed world for the most part. 21% of the world is Islamic, and half or more live in underdeveloped areas. Islamics are not capable of destroying the west even IF they all wanted to.

Here in America Sharia law is unconstitutional. The Constitution is incredibly difficult to amend. 25% of the our population lobbied unsuccessfully for over 50 years trying to get the equal rights amendment passed. Even if they wanted it, 1% of the population has
no hope of changing the Constitution. There is no sane reason to fear that Sharia law can come to this country. Our military might is too great to challenge in direct warfare. And we are learning how to deal with insurgency in Afghanistan. When we win in Afghanistan
and we will, we shall have demonstrated that we can handle the very worst that Islamic extremists can throw at us. We will also have learned to do it much more efficiently

Now bigthoughtsforasmallblog it's time to address your real concern, ?the international conspiracy of Islamic infiltrators who will destroy us covertly form within? (feel free to correct me if I've misunderstood you). Hypothetically let's say you are correct, and the Muslim Brotherhood is trying to covertly turn America into an Islamic caliphate. They are doomed to failure by the Americanized Islam of OUR Muslims, by the Constitution, by Homeland Security, by the Congress (republican or democrat), by the People and by President Barack Hussein Obama II, who is not a Muslim, and would fight Muslim jihadists even if he was. The Commies connived and infiltrated for 50 years with no effect. In fact it was their hatred of us and efforts to destroy us which resulted in their destruction.
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by jayrh August 26, 2010 11:47 PM EDT
If you look at the world news, someone dies in the name of Allah every single day! Instead of even looking at this as a possible threat though, the left would blame Christians, the victims themselves or anyone else they can think of... They would put wars that the U.S. has fought in the same category as terrorism... Never even considering that most times America has fought on the side of freedom and democracy and against oppression... Nor that we are a secular nation, while Islam is not... They find a handful of extremists from another religion or go back in history to prove their point... While, Islamist extremist number in the tens of millions and they commit acts of atrocity on a daily basis... They would even paint Hitler as a religious fanatic to try to prove their point??? Are they blind? No...

Obama and today's radical liberals are nihilists... That is, they believe that to usher in that change, that Obama keeps talking about, they first have to destroy the foundations of a society that they see as racist, imperialistic and unjust... Completely missing the fact that it's so bad that people from other countries are breaking down our doors to get here...

When you have beliefs such as this, it leads to some very strange bedfellows... Obama would help Islamists because he sees their goals as similar to his... The destruction of this society...
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by 010sonny August 26, 2010 11:11 PM EDT
Christian ambiguities? You are not aware of them? I do not believe you.. One or maybe two examples as the list is extensive. Perhaps you may remember WW 1 and WW 2 ? In the first one both sides were Christians. Aggressor and defender. In the second Hitler a Catholic as well as Mussolini. Note lack of involvement of the Pope in gathering up his sheep. 100 million plus human lives destroyed. Talk about abort ional procedures.
Crusaders lust for wealth of the East. Killing anyone in the way, including their allies. Catholic against Protestant even to this day. Inquisition, Witch hunts, All science and mathematicians that disagreed with church doctrines, burned alive or imprisoned for life. Spanish invasion of South America and their Genocide of the Incas, Mayans and the Aztecs and latter on Pablo and numerous other tribes because they were of evil doctrines. Hypocrites running amuck then as now and this is but a small highlight of christens atrocities. Much as they are today. Once again bad blood flows from these religions between themselves as well as within themselves. One forever claiming truth as their justifications for all of their actions. Conveniently blaming any and all for their errors or ignore them as myths. Never to resolve but to continue on and on in error mode.
1890?s to 1960 where were the proud righteous bible thumpers when the hew and cry went out from the bigots vomiting mouth ?Hang That Nig,,,? Perhaps to busy at a meeting of the K.K.K. Hypocrites here as well as there. Justifying bigotry of one, for another is guilty as well, is less than childish logic.
Time approaches when there will be significant intelligence to remove the mythical chains of bondage to superstitions and fairy tales. Then a sad day will occur, as humanity bids farewell ,with Jackie Paper, to our magical dragon once and for all.. Puff will be no more.
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by John_Rational August 26, 2010 9:10 PM EDT
OK bigthoughtsforasmallblog since you insist on pretending you don't already know that self-proclaimed Christians commit many crimes in the name of their religion I will point you in the direction of the info. I do not have time to do the research for you. If you dig a little you will find that the term ?extremist group? means Christian nutcases. Timothy McVeigh is the poster boy for Christian terrorists. He blew up that court house in retaliation for Waco.

Put "Christian Extremist Groups" in the search box and I assure you will be able to educate yourself for many hours, weeks and months.

Christian Militia Group Target of FBI Raids, Militia Leader Says ... Mar 28, 2010 ... Dobbs, Beck, Palin Share Blame For Rise in Right-Wing Extremism, Says Activist Group ... call Saturday evening from members of Hutaree, a Christian militia group. ...

abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=10224652
FBI arrests 9 in extremist group allegedly plotting to kill ... Mar 29, 2010 ... The anti-government Christian militia Hutaree planned to kill a police ... Reporting from Washington ? Nine members of an anti-government militia ... "The FBI takes such extremist groups seriously, especially those who ...
articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/.../la-na-hutaree-militia30-2010mar30 - Cached

FBI Investigating Extremist Group Letters Telling Governors To ... Apr 3, 2010 ... Extremist group demands governors resign ? This Just In - CNN.com Blogs ... Seven arrested in FBI raids linked to Christian militia group . ... Report Corrections. What's Your Reaction? Important ...
www.huffingtonpost.com/.../fbi-investigating-extremi_n_522984.html - Cached

CHRISTIAN IDENTITY MOVEMENT May 30, 2006 ... Quoting the FBI's Megiddo Report on domestic terrorism: 5 ... 'combining British-Israelism, a demonic anti-Semitism, and political extremism. ... Such groups have hijacked the benign religious concept of Anglo-Israelism, ...
www.religioustolerance.org ? ... ? Christian theo. beliefs - Cached - Similar

Feds: Militia members sought to spark uprising - U.S. news ... Mar 30, 2010 ... Nine suspects tied to a Christian militia in the Midwest were charged with ... you stay together as a family," the News report Stone as saying. ... The FBI takes such extremist groups seriously, especially those who ...
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36075836/ - Cached

FBI Investigates Anti-Government Extremist Group - US - CBN News ... Apr 5, 2010 ... Christian Broadcasting Network ... The FBI fears the group could encourage others to act violently and it is warning law ... Sign up for the CBN News Dispatch and receive CBN News Reports in your inbox each day. ...
www.cbn.com/.../FBI-Investigates-Anti-Government-Extremist-Group/ - Cached

FBI report: Project Megiddo - religious cults, sects and movements This is the full text of the public version of the FBI report. ... Many extremist individuals and groups place some significance on the next millennium, ...
www.apologeticsindex.org/usa-01.html - Cached - Similar
[PDF] Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate ... File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
Apr 7, 2009 ... number of domestic rightwing terrorist and extremist groups and an .... individuals and groups in the past, such as violent Christian .... (U//LES) The FBI noted in a 2008 report on the white supremacist movement ...

www.fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf - Similar
The Reaction: FBI, DHS target violent right-wing Christian group ... Mar 29, 2010 ... In the case of extremist Christian groups like this one (Hutaree), ... to a report issued today by the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC). ...
the-reaction.blogspot.com/.../fbi-dhs-target-violent-right-wing.html - Cached

FOXNews.com - Michigan Militia Group Preparing for Antichrist, Web ... Mar 29, 2010 ... The Michigan-based Christian militia group raided by the FBI over ... Center in its spring intelligence report on extremist organizations. ...
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by John_Rational August 26, 2010 3:01 PM EDT
by bigthoughtsforasmallblog August 26, 2010 12:44 AM EDT
?John, with all due respect, I'm sure that you couldn't compile a comparable list of atrocities commited by Christians.?

BTFAMB, with all due respect, I'm sure that I could. I not going to waste my time because the standard answer would be ?those people aren't Christians?. ?The Bible doesn't teach that.?

That's an impressive list but except for the first entry it's likely these were Muslim on Muslim attacks. I would also note that they all took place in areas of the world which are not exactly stable, areas where jihadists would be expected to be. Look, in my part of the country we have a significant Sikh population. Sikhs are the people in India who wear turbans. There has been a war between Sikhs and Muslims for centuries. In the aftermath of 9/11 several Sikhs were beaten and one was killed not far from here. They were mistaken for Muslims because they had rags on their heads. Get it?

If this had happened in India the headline would have read Christians murder Sikh. But in this country it read Murdered Sikh mistaken for Muslim. We don't have a lot of headlines about Christian terrorism because the Christian majority does not claim these people as Christians. In the Muslim world the same is true. They don't report crimes as Muslim crimes because they don't claim terrorists as Muslim.

There have been many crimes against American Muslims committed in the name of Christianity since 9/11. The press does not report these as acts of Christian terrorism. If a Muslim attacked a Christian, even if he was just mugging him for money, that would be reported as a Muslim attack on a Christian.

Today we see a sign this is changing. Some news agencies are reporting crimes against Muslims as hate crimes at least. On the TV news this morning I saw a story about a Muslim construction worker that was beaten into a coma because he admitted he was a Muslim. A Muslim cab driver in New York was stabbed severely for the same reason. The attacks happen, but I doubt we will ever see the headline ?Christians Terrorize New York Cabbie?.

When the majority of Muslim Americans state that terrorism is not a part of their religion, that their religion is one of peace and love, and Christians call them lairs, that is not acceptable.

When the majority of Christian Americans state that terrorism is not a part of their religion, that their religion is one of peace and love, and Muslims call them lairs, that is not acceptable.

Both Muslims and Christians have been commanded to treat others as we wish to be treated.
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by dick4021 August 26, 2010 1:12 PM EDT
I am very dissapointed, that mayor Blumberg has taken the roll of support for the Mosque and the Muslim community. Is this a middle road, or political decision. Maybe he never really cared about 9/11 as much as Guliani. I would love to know what the Fire and police forces in New York think about the Mayor now.
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by John_Rational August 25, 2010 11:47 PM EDT
I commend you for acknowledging Majed Moughni's courage in defending Christians. Christians and Americans of any faith, or none, have a duty to stand with people of good will against injustice.

by bigthoughtsforasmallblog August 25, 2010 8:54 PM EDT
?Build the Mosque at ground zero and the murderers go along for the ride and enjoy the fruits of their carnage.?

I do understand your concern here. But an Islamic community center isn't actually a Mosque any more than the chapel at the Pentagon is. Also this building is not on ground zero. It can't even be seen from ground zero. The jihadists hate the Sufis behind this center more than they hate Christians. In their minds Christians are the enemy but Sufis are traitors to Islam. I honestly don't think the jihadists will take any pride or glory in a Sufi establishment which welcomes Christians and people of all faiths for the purpose of promoting understanding and good will between them. Even if they do try to turn it into propaganda points, our answer as Americans will be that this center is proof that we are not at war with Islam. It is proof that we will not compromise our ideals of religious freedom and tolerance. It is proof that Americans are better, greater, than they. It is proof that we will not let our fear of them control us.

A lot of Americans are letting their fear control their thinking. I prefer to let my thinking control my fear. I do not fear jihadists, for they have attacked Americans, and knowing Americans as I do, I know it is THEY who should be afraid If the jihadists take any comfort in this center they shall take it as our valiant warriors (Christian, Muslims and all the rest) slaughter them, side by side, on the field of battle, for we are Americans, our enemys fall before us like wheat before the reaper.
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by John_Rational August 25, 2010 11:36 PM EDT
by bigthoughtsforasmallblog August 25, 2010 10:06 PM EDT
"THE ISLAMIC WORLD WAR ? mandated by Allah & Muhammed in the Koran & Ahadith: Bukhari (8:387) ? Allah?s Apostle Muhammed said, ?I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: ?None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'"

OK I know you are aware that I could compile an equally impressive list of atrocities committed by people who claimed to be Christians. But your thesis is that such actions are not consistent with biblical teachings whereas such acts are consistent with the teachings of the Koran. I know a bunch of American Muslims who will most certainly argue that such acts are not consistent with the teachings of the Koran, and will assert that the vast majority of American Muslims agree with them. When I ask them about the quote you mention above they reply that "Allah" is Arabic for GOD, and that they worship the GOD of Abraham just like Christians and Jews do. Sufis worldwide would insist that the Koran teaches them to love everybody. But there are only 7 million American Muslims, and about 250,000,000 Sufis so I guess that's not really a representative sample.

And let's not forget that European Christians virtually exterminated all native Americans in two continents in the name of converting them to Christianity (and confiscating their land and gold).
Let's not forget that Christian Crusaders sanctioned by Rome and wearing crosses on their shields murdered 1000s, and perhaps 10s of thousands, of Muslims trying to ?liberate? the holy land.

Also there are 1.5 Billion Muslims in the world. How many of them do you suppose are committing such acts? One percent Maybe? How many of the others think this is consistent with the teachings of the Koran? 10% maybe? And how many of those who approve of such terrorism are American Muslims? 1% Maybe.

Let's be fair. If the majority of Christians do not believe terrorist acts are consistent with the Bible (the whole Bible) then I'll take them at their word. If the majority of Muslims believe such acts are not consistent with the Koran then I believe they are likely correct.
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by John_Rational August 25, 2010 8:00 PM EDT
Muslim Republican leads rally to free Dearborn Christians

Muslim attorney and congressional candidate, Majed Moughni, led a rally recently of some 25 people to the Dearborn, Mich. city hall, to call for the release of four Christians who were arrested for evangelizing.

Moughni said,?Their arrests should never have happened. We respect the Constitution. No one should be afraid to come here and speak,? MLive reported.

Moughni, who is competing against three other Republicans for Michigan?s 15th Congressional District, said the arrests harmed the image of Arab Americans in Dearborn.

Moughni is known largely because he previously organized ?Not in the name of Islam,? a silent protest against the Christmas Day terrorist attack on Flight 253 which was to land in Detroit, and for which he received death threats.

The four Christians, Nabeel Qureshi of Virginia, David Wood and Paul Rezkalla both of New York, and Negeen Mayel of California, were arrested on June 19 while evangelizing at the Arab International Festival and charged with disturbing the peace, the Detroit Free Press said.

They were arraigned on June 12, and their trial has been set for Sept. 20.

Dearborn Police Chief Ron Haddad claimed the Christians were arrested for disorderly conduct, while Dearborn Mayor Jack O?Reilly Jr. said the group wanted to get attention and raise funds. He said other Christian groups at the Arab festival caused no trouble, UPI said.
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