Black Boxes May Not Solve Flight Mystery

30-Minute Flight Recorder Not Likely to Shed Light on Actions of Pilots Who Overshot Airport and Put Military Jets on Alert

(CBS/AP)  Updated at 6:35 p.m. EDT

Were the pilots distracted? Catching up on their sleep? Federal investigators struggled to determine what the crew of a Northwest Airlines jetliner were doing at 37,000 feet as they sped 150 miles past their Minneapolis destination and military jets scrambled to chase them. Unfortunately, the cockpit voice recorder may not tell the tale.

A report released late Friday said the pilots passed breathalyzer tests and were apologetic after Wednesday night's amazing odyssey. They said they had been having a heated discussion about airline policy. But aviation safety experts and other pilots were frankly skeptical they could have become so consumed with shop talk that they forgot to land an airplane carrying 144 passengers.

The most likely possibility, they said, is that the pilots simply fell asleep somewhere along their route from San Diego.

"It certainly is a plausible explanation," said Bill Voss, president of the Flight Safety Foundation in Alexandria, Va.

New recorders retain as much as two hours of cockpit conversation and other noise, but the older model aboard Northwest's Flight 188 includes just the last 30 minutes - only the very end of Wednesday night's flight after the pilots realized their error over Wisconsin and were heading back to Minneapolis.

They had flown through the night with no response as air traffic controllers in two states and pilots of other planes over a wide swath of the mid-continent tried to get their attention by radio, data message and cell phone.

Meanwhile, police and FBI agents on the ground were preparing for the worst, and the Air National Guard put four fighter jets on strip alert - pilots in cockpit with engines running - in case the incident turned out to be more serious, reports CBS News correspondent David Martin.

With worries about terrorists still high, even after contact was re-established, air traffic controllers ordered the plane to execute two additional turns to confirm that the pilots were in fact controlling the aircraft, reports CBS News correspondent Wyatt Andrews.

"There's a number of procedures that air traffic control have employed after 9/11 to help identify that the plane is not under the control of terrorists," former NTSB managing director Peter Goelz told Andrews.

A report released by airport police Friday identified the pilot as Timothy B. Cheney and the first officer as Richard I. Cole. The report said the men were "cooperative, apologetic and appreciative" and volunteered to take preliminary breath tests that were zero for alcohol use. The report also said the lead flight attendant told police she was unaware of any incident during the flight.

View the Airport Police Incident Report

The pilots, both temporarily suspended, are to be interviewed by NTSB investigators next week. The airline, acquired last year by Delta Air Lines, is also investigating. Messages left at both men's homes were not immediately returned.

Investigators don't know whether the pilots may have fallen asleep, but National Transportation Safety Board spokesman Keith Holloway said Friday that fatigue and cockpit distraction will be looked into. The cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder arrived in Washington for examination Friday morning, an NTSB official told CBS News.

FlightAware.com Tracking of Northwest Flight 188

Voss, the Flight Safety Foundation president, said a special concern was that the many safety checks built into the aviation system to prevent incidents like this one - or to correct them quickly - apparently were ineffective until the very end. Not only couldn't air traffic controllers and other pilots raise the Northwest pilots for an hour, but the airline's dispatcher should have been trying to reach them as well. The three flight attendants onboard should have questioned why there were no preparations for landing being made. Brightly lit cockpit displays should have warned the pilots it was time to land. Even the bright city lights of Minneapolis should have clued them in that they'd reached their destination.

"It's is probably something you would say never would happen if this hadn't just happened," Voss said.

The pilots were finally alerted to their situation when a flight attendant called on an intercom from the cabin. Two pilots flying in the vicinity were also finally able to raise the Northwest pilots using a Denver traffic control radio frequency instead of the local Minneapolis frequency.

On the ground, police and FBI agents prepared for the worst.

"When the aircraft taxied to the gate I was able to see the two white males in the seats of the flight crew, both were wearing uniforms consistent with Delta flight crew," said a police report, signed by an Officer Starch. "When the aircraft had stopped, the male seated in the pilot seat turned, looked at me and gave me two thumbs up and shook his head indicating all was OK."

Air traffic controllers in Denver had been in contact with the pilots as they flew over the Rockies, FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown said. But as the plane got closer to Minneapolis, she said, "the Denver center tried to contact the flight but couldn't get anyone."

Denver controllers notified their counterparts in Minneapolis, who also tried to reach the crew without success, Brown said.

Officials suspect Flight 188's radio might still have been tuned to a frequency used by Denver controllers even though the plane had flown beyond their reach, said Church, the spokesman for the National Air Traffic Controllers Union. Controllers worked throughout the incident with the pilots of other planes, asking them to try to raise Flight 188 using the Denver frequency, he said.

Passenger Andrea Allmon told CBS News she was "horrified" the pilots weren't paying attention.

"Their job is to fly the plane. My job is to ride the plane," Allmon said. "They are supposed to fly the plane - it's unbelievable, unbelievable."

Another passenger, Lonnie Heidtke, said he didn't notice anything unusual before the landing except that the plane was late.

The flight attendants "did say there was a delay and we'd have to orbit or something to that effect before we got back. They really didn't say we overflew Minneapolis. ... They implied it was just a business-as-usual delay," said Heidtke, a consultant with a supercomputer consulting company based in Bloomington, Minn.

Once on the ground, the plane was met by police and FBI agents. Passengers retrieving their luggage from overhead bins were asked by flight attendants sit down, Heidtke said. An airport police officer and a couple other people came on board and stood at the cockpit door, talking to the pilots, he said.

"I did jokingly call my wife and say, 'This is the first time I've seen the police meet the plane. Maybe they're going to arrest the pilots for being so late.' Maybe I was right," Heidtke said.

In January 2008, two pilots for go! airlines fell asleep for at least 18 minutes during a midmorning flight from Honolulu to Hilo, Hawaii. The plane passed its destination and was heading out over open ocean before controllers raised the pilots. The captain was later diagnosed with sleep apnea.

FAA spokesman Tony Molinaro said in general, an unsafe condition created by a pilot could lead to the suspension of the person's pilot license and possibly a civil penalty.

[mahdeealoo]

Talking, eh? And my name is Cinderella.

[start99]

You don't think they would tell the truth/fess up? What happened to being honest and standing up to your responsibilities. They will no doubt get fired and join the unemployment lines. This is so ugly...could be a case here!!

[johnpinneke]

Video from the Cockpit released!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8gKL1UYOXE

[Skruffy1]

johnpinneke, I think you're onto something with that video. That's great! LMAO

[incog-nito]

These pilots were likely tired and fell asleep. Instead of dissing them people should look at the airline industry instead. Captain Sulley said so himself, pilots are overworked and underpaid. They'll probably be fired to take the blame off the industry, but the problem will continue.

[Skruffy1]

Captain Sulley was PART right. Some of them are underpaid, namely the regional carriers' pilots. What they are paid is a crime. But flight crews on the major airlines are VERY well paid. As for their being overworked... to a large extent they do that to themselves by using their big salaries to live in places they really, really want to live, and therefore spend a lot of their time deadheading to where their work assignments are. FAA regs limit flight time so that they're not overworked.

[ianlou]

Wow, If they slept for another hour and landed at the next airport, they may have thought they died and went to hell. They would have been in Detroit.

[Questionews]

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

[Bruisercat]

yawnnnnn, next subject please meow

[Bruisercat]

Maybe both pilots are holding down two jobs to try and regain there lost 401K's? These guys are not paid very well to start with.. Definately sounds like sleepage or langoliers ;)

[the0racle]

Langoliers. Or maybe taken aboard a UFO. In order to cover 150 miles in 14 minutes after flying over the airport means they were traveling close to top cruising speed of the airbus320, which is 561 mph. They should have been slowing down long before the airport. For a 4 degree glide path, they should have been starting down around 100 miles before that airport. About 10-13 minutes from touch down. Somewhere BEFORE those 24-27 minutes passed, some alert flight attendant should have noticed the jet was not slowing down. To them it is just a job and they are as aware as any person on the clock what time their shift ends. Passengers I can understand why they 'might' not have noticed. Guess nobody had an iPhone with GPS

[jayelle5]

Interesting that the cockpit voice recorder only stores 30 minutes of conversation. If the pilots were aware of this, they probably figured that they could get away with their story about having a heated conversation knowing that the voice recording wouldn't cover that part of the trip anyway. There might not be any way to ever prove whether they were sleeping in the cockpit or not.

[chelokee]

www.yoeddie.com

[borg99]

They've got to get rid of those beer dispensers on the flight deck.

[kbbpll]

Maybe Brett Favre was onboard.

[Ms_enza]

I know I want to die peacefully and quietly in my sleep like my grandfather and kicking and screaming like his passengers...

[hungry1968-16]

I know I want to die peacefully and quietly in my sleep like my grandfather, and NOT kicking and screaming like his passengers.

[Skruffy1]

Handing Ms_enza the word "not" which I think she meant to insert before the word "kicking". Don't ya hate when that happens?

[hungry1968-16]

Yeah - that's why I thought I'd help out.

[run2jazz2]

Pilot's asleep? I fly all the time for my job and now besides praying before I take off that no terrorist is on the plane now I have to worry if the pilots are asleep? If these guys were that tired why not have another pilot take their flights rather than risk the lives of the public? This is not good and these guys should not be allowed to fly any longer.

[mswolfestock]

Wasn't it Northwest Airlines that had more than one drunk pilot in the last couple of years? Seems like they have all kinds of problems, and this one scares the beejeebers out of me, too.

[dolansprings]

Train engineers and conductors are required to press 'the button' every 2 minutes to insure that they have not gone to sleep. Why are these 'buttons' not required on all aircraft?

[Skruffy1]

...or a gizmo that shouts every 15 minutes: "Hey Dummy, WAKE UP!!!"

[45ford]

dolansprings - you make a very worthy point. also there's an increased number of remote controlled trains being used, so why hasn't similar technologies been developed for aircraft and ocean vessels. the recent issues with Airbus plane malfunctions and difficulties finding or getting to black boxes because they're so deep in the ocean or badly damaged that it brings up the question why aren't all aircraft required to transmit live data direct to the ground so in the event of an emergency the people on the ground at least have some data to use to for investigative purposes.

[SAMTORRES66]

I think we need 3 pilots.....

[Skirt-Lifter]

That would be one stuffed cockpit!

[Skruffy1]

Oh great... threesomes in the cockpit would be all the more distracting...

[pensacola8-2009]

Many pilots have reported Jet Lag problems and find themselves unemployed afterward, so the problem persists since airlines made the wrong choice about how to react to it.

The biggest problem with cockpit discipline by far is from the affects of altered sleeping rhythms. Even subtle levels of situational awareness are lost 5-10 minutes before a pilot dozes off, making that pilot ineffective for critical aeronautical decision making. The problem gets more difficult for every human as they age.

The other enemy in the cockpit is routine boredom. Changing pilot and co-pilot teams and crewmember teams did help this. Generally, chatty pilots have been traditionally shunned in the past for being a source of distraction, but the FAA now does recognize that regular stimulus back into routine is better achieved with a chatty pilot, than with a synthesized voice alert from a machine giving reminders.

The biggest misnomer is that no one thing can divide unsafe pilots from safe ones all the time, since different situations have different effects on individual pilots.

Two observations which pilots do report are that extrovert pilots who are more competitive and easily enter a communicative dialog with others, do exhibit the easier signs for others to read. Introvert ones have different signatures. All agree that sensitive personalities pose the highest risks in a cockpit. I have seen females in the cockpit, who possess professional minded abilities and keep things under their control very well. Those who value education and actually get it stay optimized longer.

In the 1980's after President Reagan fired 12,000 federal employees, there was a bloody era of one flight disaster after and another. The policy reaction of eliminating the messengers about aviation safety problems proved to kill more people than it solved. President Reagan's way of solving problems proved disastrous, since his political aids succeeded in disguising the real problem about safety and politicized it with the face of workforce defiance.

To this day, modern deregulation policy often conflicts and undermines the authority of NTSB policies. Pilots find themselves at the crossroads of safety and business needs. They would rather police themselves and be respected as a stakeholder in their profession, than place decision authority about safety issues in the hands of news media or pop culture politicians.

[Skirt-Lifter]

""I have seen females in the cockpit,""

Why do they call it a 'cockpit' anyway?

[erasmus111]

by Skirt-Lifter October 23, 2009 4:09 PM EDT
""I have seen females in the cockpit,""

Why do they call it a 'cockpit' anyway?



You're a busy guy, aren't ya?

THESkirtLifter, SkirtLifter, Skirt-Lifter.... I can't remember the ones before that. :) I think maybe there was a skirtlifter1, too.

If you ever need any help in thinking of new names, just let me know.

I gave gunownerdan a few to pick from, just incase....potsmokin'gunownerdan, beerswillin'gunownerdan, guntotin'gunownerdan, and pillpoppin'gunownerdan. What do ya think?
I gave him those because those are the only kinds of stories I see him posting on. : )

[45ford]

pensacola8-2009 - i relate to your post. for 3 years, i drove an 18-wheeler throughout the U.S. and Canada. on numerous occasions, i experienced the very same altered sleep rhythms that you wrote about. i could begin to count the number of times i suddenly yet very briefly fell asleep behind the wheel while driving. thankfully i never caused a wreck and i never disclosed my challenges to my employer or other drivers. eventually it became such a personally troublesome issue that i realized that it necessitated a job change. the best way i can describe it is that one can get their sleep rhythm so far out of whack that you can instantly doze off as if one suddenly experiences an overwhelming case of narcolepsy. now i look back and fully understand how utterly stupid and selfish i was by endangering my life, the innocent lives of other drivers & passengers on the roads, risking the cargo which was frequently hazmat goods and ultimately jeopardizing the livelihood of my family and my life privileges to hold a driver's license. thinking i could train my mind and body to adapt to constantly changing sleep rhythms and actually doing it were two very different things.

[CompletelyFrustrated]

This is really scary, I fly for my job all the time! I won't be flying NWA or delta.

These pilots should be fired and their licenses revoked permanently!!!! I do not care what reason they come up with, they endangered the lives of all 144 passengers and their flight crew. Who cares if they were engaged in a heated debate about airline policy - their primary responsibility is the flight and its passengers!

If there is silence on those boxes then they were asleep then they should lose all license and privilege, if they were yelling so loud they could not hear the control towers then they need to be charged with negligence and be forced to pay for the wasted jet fuel. Maybe a few months of cleanin planes and sweeping runways will make them realize what they did wrong! IDIOTS!

[docpeter1953]

Take your medicine now. So much anger and hostility can't be good for your blood pressure.

[Questionews]

To quote Rick James: "Cocaine is a powerful drug!"


"I'm Rick James bi%ch!"

[mjlewis6]

It is hard to hear the beeps and see the red lights...when a stewardess is keeping both pilots occupied. The other 'mile high' club. Two pilots asleep, high probability against that, but for the Stewardesses NOT to notice? NO way..not near the end of a flight when all drink trays and trash is stowed prior to destination arrival

[sandy19731]

Stewardess hasn't been a job title since the "70's.

Better update your language, mjlewis6.