M4 Rifles Causing Problems for U.S. Troops

Independent Study of Wanat Battle by Military Historian Finds Widely Used Gun Can Jam at Worst Time

(CBS/AP)  In the chaos of an early morning assault on a remote U.S. outpost in eastern Afghanistan, Staff Sgt. Erich Phillips' M4 carbine quit firing as militant forces surrounded the base. The machine gun he grabbed after tossing the rifle aside didn't work either.

When the battle in the small village of Wanat ended, nine U.S. soldiers lay dead and 27 more were wounded. A detailed study of the attack by a military historian found that weapons failed repeatedly at a "critical moment" during the firefight on July 13, 2008, putting the outnumbered American troops at risk of being overrun by nearly 200 insurgents.

Click here for an exclusive report on the Wanat battle by CBS News national security correspondent David Martin for the Special Report on Afghanistan: The Road Ahead.

Watch David Martin's Exclusive Report

The gun mishaps raise the question: Eight years into the war against the Taliban in Afghanistan, do U.S. armed forces have the best guns money can buy?

Despite the military's insistence that they do, a small but vocal number of troops in Afghanistan and Iraq has complained that the standard-issue M4 rifles need too much maintenance and jam at the worst possible times.

A week ago, eight U.S. troops were killed at a base near Kamdesh, a town near Wanat. There's no immediate evidence of weapons failures at Kamdesh, but the circumstances were eerily similar to the Wanat battle: insurgents stormed an isolated stronghold manned by American forces stretched thin by the demands of war.

Army Col. Wayne Shanks, a military spokesman in Afghanistan, said a review of the battle at Kamdesh is under way. "It is too early to make any assumptions regarding what did or didn't work correctly," he said.

Complaints about the weapons the troops carry, especially the M4, aren't new. Army officials say that when properly cleaned and maintained, the M4 is a quality weapon that can pump out more than 3,000 rounds before any failures occur.

The M4 is a shorter, lighter version of the M16, which made its debut during the Vietnam war. Roughly 500,000 M4s are in service, making it the rifle troops on the front lines trust with their lives.

Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., a leading critic of the M4, said Thursday the Army needs to move quickly to acquire a combat rifle suited for the extreme conditions U.S. troops are fighting in.

U.S. special operations forces, with their own acquisition budget and the latitude to buy gear the other military branches can't, already are replacing their M4s with a new rifle.

"The M4 (seen at left) has served us well but it's not as good as it needs to be," Coburn said.

Battlefield surveys show that nearly 90 percent of soldiers are satisfied with their M4s, according to Brig. Gen. Peter Fuller, head of the Army office that buys soldier gear. Still, the rifle is continually being improved to make it even more reliable and lethal.

Fuller said he's received no official reports of flawed weapons performance at Wanat. "Until it showed up in the news, I was surprised to hear about all this," he said.

The study by Douglas Cubbison of the Army Combat Studies Institute at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., hasn't been publicly released. Copies of the study have been leaked to news organizations and are circulating on the Internet.

Cubbison's study is based on extensive interviews with Phillips and other soldiers who survived the attack at Wanat. He describes a well-coordinated attack by a highly skilled enemy that unleashed a withering barrage with AK-47 automatic rifles and rocket-propelled grenades.

The soldiers said their weapons were meticulously cared for and routinely inspected by commanders. But still the weapons had breakdowns, especially when the rifles were on full automatic, which allows hundreds of bullets to be fired a minute.

The platoon-sized unit of U.S. soldiers and about two dozen Afghan troops was shooting back with such intensity the barrels on their weapons turned white hot. The high rate of fire appears to have put a number of weapons out of commission, even though the guns are tested and built to operate in extreme conditions.

Cpl. Jonathan Ayers and Spc. Chris McKaig were firing their M4s from a position the soldiers called the "Crow's Nest." The pair would pop up together from cover, fire half a dozen rounds and then drop back down.

On one of these trips up, Ayers was killed instantly by an enemy round. McKaig soon had problems with his M4, which carries a 30-round magazine.

"My weapon was overheating," McKaig said, according to Cubbison's report. "I had shot about 12 magazines by this point already and it had only been about a half hour or so into the fight. I couldn't charge my weapon and put another round in because it was too hot, so I got mad and threw my weapon down."

The soldiers also had trouble with their M249 machine guns, a larger weapon than the M4 that can shoot up to 750 rounds per minute.

Cpl. Jason Bogar fired approximately 600 rounds from his M-249 before the weapon overheated and jammed.

Read more on Bogar from CBS News' Special Report: The Road Ahead:

Soldier's Last Letter from Afghanistan
"I was Just Starting to Live My Life"

Bogar was killed during the firefight, but no one saw how he died, according to the report.

[kagba]

the troops deserve something better, no wonder morale is beginning to suffer at the way things are going, afghanistan will be another vietnam, where we won all the battles but ultimately lost the war.

[usmc66]

Where is Puff the Magic Dragon, in Vietnam our company was being overrun by an NVA Battlion Puff came in and laid down a field of fire with a bullett striking the ground every 6 inches and dropping flares so we had better targets this broke the enemy attack they stayed on scene all night. I was an M60 gunner and never had a malfunction where the weapon wouldn't fire, in prolonged firefights we did change the barrel so we didn't melt the lands and grooves but this was for accuracy, it never failed me. All Marines are taught fire discpline this is what will keep your weapons working all of us used 6 round burst fire this helps keep the gun cool and improves accuracy, just pulling a trigger on full auto is not the answer. The last thing is all weapons need care and cleaning.
These are my own experiences I would not presume to speak about what happened there, that will take first hand knowledge.

[B-Live]

With the M-16/M4/AR-15 platform being as large as it is the military could still use this weapon but upgrades are needed to the gas system, There are so many aftermarket parts that would provide a more stable platform. Under constant fire you can blow out the gas tube which requires a full stripdown to repair, Plus the solder needs to have the spare part on hand which would prove akward considering its a long piece of metal tubing. Considering Colt has the current contract they need to improve there AR platform to meet our troops needs

[Sloughfoot]

From Wikapedia "In July 2007, the US Army announced a limited competition between the M4 carbine, FN SCAR, HK416, and the previously-shelved HK XM8. Ten examples of each of the four competitors were involved. Each weapon was fired for 60,000 rounds in an "extreme dust environment." The purpose of the shootoff was for assessing future needs, not to select a replacement for the M4.[3][4] The XM8 scored the best, with only 127 stoppages in 60,000 total rounds, the FN SCAR Light had 226 stoppages, while the HK416 had 233 stoppages. The M4 carbine scored "significantly worse" than the rest of the field with 882 stoppages" Nuff said

[wwudiver]

I am mortified to see Bogar die and the shots from aircraft last week of their bodies, but I am infinitely proud that Bogar laid down some much metal, costing the enemy so dearly. They got you, but you died a soldiers death, an honorable death in the face of overwhelming odds. ooooohhhh...rrrraaaa CPL. Bogar- I have a beer for your sake every now and again.

[wwudiver]

I am mortified to see Bogar die and the shots from aircraft last week of their bodies, but I am infinitely proud that Bogar laid down some much metal, costing the enemy so dearly. They got you, but you died a soldiers death, an honorable death in the face of overwhelming odds. ooooohhhh...rrrraaaa CPL. Bogar- I have a beer for your sake every now and again.

[mystaphy]

Im getting tired of people always trying to blame Obama when I can guarantee the lower enlisted complain all the time about the weapons. What I dont understand is why do the local police get better equipment than the military and were fighting the same enemy. They have better weapons and better armor. Obama can only give the military money its the higher ups in the Pentagon who never leave the office that tells the rest of the military how to spend their money.

[rickwar]

by edgy44 October 12, 2009 4:30 AM EDT
The Army doesn't give out any medals for emptying a machine gun. They give out medals for marksmanship single fire. Only an idiot would spray out 30 rounds to try and scare savages

Damn right, in fact the instruction is "select your target, do not "spray the area"

[rickwar]

by bubbadubba October 12, 2009 10:35 AM EDT
The legendary perfect AK47 - Sloppy, inaccurate, heavy, and short range.
That's why US troops always win firefights and kill three times as many of the enemy. See what happens when someone writes a story and doesn't know what they are writing?
I've fired an AK47, it is a total piece of junk and I would rather use a shotgun to spray projectiles since the shotgun is more accurate.
AK47's will jam, the ammo will split in the chamber, cook offs, bent barrels, exploding barrels, exploding chambers, breaking mechanisms, just to name a few wonderful features of that loose sloppy piece of junk.
The worship of the AK47 is baloney.

BullS**T pal.

In Vietnam I killed more enemy with an AK than I ever did with an M-16.

"See what happens when someone writes a story and doesn't know what they are writing?" Yep I do, now go back to your armchair warrior position.

Fing idiots.

[kagba]

i agree with you, though the akm does not have the accuracy of the m16, it is accurate enough up to 250 meters which is more than the average distance of most firefights, i have had experience with both piece of ordnance and in battlefields which are dirty and when one does not have the luxury of being able to clean his weapon on a regular basis, the ak is a better weapon, but on the firing range in shooting competitions the m16 has the edge.

[rickwar]

the early M-16 was junk, the GM made one (GM hydramatic division) was the worst. Many of us carried M-14's heavy, but damn reliable. Even better? A russian AK replacement, damn fine piece of work.

It really is time to stop the BS weapons procurment that leaves our guys in a lurch. It's criminal.

[borg99]

Bring back the M-14 with a lighter, less punishing round than the .308 Win/7.62 NATO. A chopped 243 Win. (6mm x 39?) might be just the ticket.

And get rid of the M16/M4, which has always been finicky, and the 223 Rem/5.56 NATO, which is a woodchuck cartridge that's got to be bad for urban conditions.

[babooph]

Too bad the Russians never had a lobbyist to bribe for their rifle-it was known to be better more than a generation ago.....ever notice militants worldwide who buy their own arms NEVER have a US rifle?

[quietamercan]

I saw a TV interview of some IRA guy who said that when they had the option to buy either AK-47s or AR-15s, they would go with the AR-15 due to the greater accuracy. Then again, the environmental conditions in Ireland are very different than Afghanistan.
This is from the Wikipedia article on the AR-18: "It gained some notoriety through its use by the Irish Republican Army (IRA), who allegedly christened it the "Widowmaker"."

[kenhamlett]

There is a good reason. They only two good military rifles the Americans ever developed were the '03 Springfield (using stolen Mauser technology) and the M14 which was expensive to manufacture and dropped in favor of the M16.

[rwsmith29456]

Everything has bugs, but they need to be fixed quickly. Now our troops have had to face a constant fire situation only to have their rifles fail in the middle of it. People were killed in Nam cleaning their weapons when they needed to be firing it. This thing about 'properly maintained it's a great weapon' is bunk because you can't stop in the middle of a firefight to maintain it.

[RedWings_ninety_one]

I think it is time to develop a new weapon all together.

[B-Live]

the new Bushmaster ACR was designed specifically as a replacement rifle

[quapawsix]

Ever watch an AK47 firing in time lapse the thing wobbles in the center that weapon is unstable I'm surprised you can hit anything with that weapon. It functions because if was meant to be mass produced and cheap. The A4 is to precisely built and is not be suitable for the environment.

[kenhamlett]

There is actually a solution for the effect you describe. A torque brake which looks like a flash hider was develped for the PSL and Dragunov rifles. (They are like an AK on steroids)
It is used to stabilize the twisting force that causes instability.

[kagba]

thousands have been killed with the ak, so it is obvious you can hit something with it, i know because i can

[rafaeldrc]

Just by the description, it seems to me the design specifications for the M4 were exceeded. In a fight to say alive, one does not consider specifications. If the barrels were "white hot" as the article suggest, the weapon probably was not design for such operation. All designs have limitations. The law of physics cannot be circumvented even when you life is in danger. Once you exceed design specifications, the life of the mechanism grows shorter with further use.

[rafaeldrc]

One more point... I think this was an irresponsible story to run because one needs to take into consideration the operating envelope of the weapon and determine if it was exceeded. It may turn out that the soldiers caused the failures that occurred by allowing it to overheat and not allowing it to cool. But in battle, what can you do. It's an emotional story that hits Americans square between the eyes but, regretfully, without adequate research before airing.

[kagba]

when you are fighting for your life you do not care about design specifications

[hologram5]

Eight years into the war against the Taliban in Afghanistan, do U.S. armed forces have the best guns money can buy?
-------------------------------------------------
No, they got the cheapest. They got what the defense contractors gave them. These people were OK'd by the very criminals that sent our men and women over there to die. The entire defense contractor industry needs overhauling. All they do is line their pockets and let our soldiers die. Send them out there to fight with the garbage they are giving our soldiers.

[Questionews]

Somewhere, R. Lee Ermey is shedding a tear right now.

[B-Live]

R. Lee Ermey prefers the M14

[Scimajor]

I see this AK47/M4 arguement as a classic "The grass is always greener" kind of thing. Run dozens of mags through the AK47 until the barrel is "white hot" and it'll be prone failure also. When metal gets hot it expands and when parts expand at an uneven rate ... bingo .... jam city. You can't escape basic physics even if your first two letters start with AK.

I'm kind of surprised that a military proffesional doesn't understand that you need to allow time for the weapon to cool. You can't run it almost continously for an hour and expect it to work correctly for every round.

Napalm never misfires. Why not use that instead? ;-)

[kenhamlett]

"Napalm never misfires. Why not use that instead? ;-)"

This is a kinder, gentler war. If we use napalm we also have to provide the marshmallows.

[DaVicar8]

My sergeants always told me that the weapons I use are only as good as the civilians who built it, and that they built it based on the lowest bid.