Scientists Try to Debunk Shroud of Turin

Group Funded by Italian Atheists, Agnostics Claims Experiment "Clearly Indicates" Shroud Was Man Made

(AP)  Scientists have reproduced the Shroud of Turin - revered as the cloth that covered Jesus in the tomb - and say the experiment proves the relic was man-made, a group of Italian debunkers claimed Monday.

The shroud bears the figure of a crucified man, complete with blood seeping out of nailed hands and feet, and believers say Christ's image was recorded on the linen fibers at the time of his resurrection.

Scientists have reproduced the shroud using materials and methods that were available in the 14th century, the Italian Committee for Checking Claims on the Paranormal said.

The group said in a statement this is further evidence the shroud is a medieval forgery. In 1988, scientists used radiocarbon dating to determine it was made in the 13th or 14th century.

But the dispute continued because experts couldn't explain how the faint brown discoloration was produced, imprinting on the cloth a negative image centuries before the invention of photography.

Many still believe that the shroud "has unexplainable characteristics that cannot be reproduced by human means," lead scientist Luigi Garlaschelli said in the statement. "The result obtained clearly indicates that this could be done with the use of inexpensive materials and with a quite simple procedure."

The research was funded by the debunking group and by an Italian organization of atheists and agnostics, he said.

Garlaschelli, a professor of chemistry at the University of Pavia, said in an interview with La Repubblica daily that his team used a linen woven with the same technique as the shroud and artificially aged by heating it in an oven and washing it with water.

The cloth was then placed on a student, who wore a mask to reproduce the face, and rubbed with red ochre, a well known pigment at the time. The entire process took a week, Repubblica said.

The shroud is first recorded in history around 1360 in the hands of a French knight - a late appearance that is one of the reasons why some scientists are skeptical of its authenticity.

Measuring 13 feet long and three feet wide, it has suffered severe damage during the centuries, including from fires.

Owned by the Vatican, it is kept locked in a special protective chamber in Turin's cathedral and is rarely shown. The last public display was in 2000, when more than 1 million people turned up to see it, and the next is scheduled for 2010.

The Catholic Church makes no claims about the relic's authenticity, but says it is a powerful symbol of Christ's suffering.

The shroud has been strongly debated within the scientific community. Some researchers claim that patches used in the Middle Ages to repair the cloth after a fire altered the carbon-dating results.

Another study, by the Hebrew University, concluded that pollen and plant images on the shroud showed it originated in the area around Jerusalem sometime before the eighth century.

Garlaschelli told Repubblica he didn't think his research would convince those who have faith in the shroud's authenticity.

"They won't give up," he said. "Those who believe in it will continue to believe."

[alarchdu]

It has been known for decades that the Shroud of Turin dated from about the 14/15th Century. It has been known for decades that the Shroud's image could not have been made by being placed over a corpse, since the proportions are wrong. But the chemicals found in the Shroud are the same as those used by Leonardo da Vinci in his earlier experiments with primitive photography (coincidentally, at the same location where the Shroud originally surfaced). It is coincidental that a self-portrait of da Vinci looks almost the same as he would have looked when the Shroud was "made".

Have we so run out of knowledge that we have to rehash things.

[jphoenixs]

Possibly the point that you missed about my comment, given the most recent news about the Shroud of Turin using the scientific method in order for those results to be credible they need to be in agreement with those scientific facts that are known about the shroud, which they are not.

Dr John Heller, a member of the STURP Team that personally examined the Shroud of Turin in 1978 concluded that the body image was a conjugate carbonyl molecule. More simply explained the body image was the result of a rapid heating or dehydration reaction of the cellulose fiber.

The current methodology was to use a red ocher pigment, if I understand the article correctly, to create the body image. The STURP Team also removed a paint fleck in 1978 containing red ocher, an iron oxide, which the late Walter McCrone, who had never examined the cloth, concluded that the image had to be a painting. Again, clearly not in agreement with the scientific facts supporting the evidence as determined by very credible scientists that examined the linen cloth first hand.

More recent research, which I may be bias because it supports my hypothesis, the body image has been described as a quantum hologram and that a singularity existed in the tomb sometime prior to the event of the resurrection. The body image on a microscopic level is similar to a dot matrix, also giving credibility to the release of subatomic particles, inclusive of a neutron flux, being the mechanism that caused the body image as proposed by my theory. Hence my reference to Quantum Mechanics, Hubble?s Law and The Big Bang Theory. For reference see the documentary entitled, ?The Fabric of Time.?

Again, my hypothesis is in complete agreement with the more credible scientific fact known about the Shroud of Turin to include the results of the 1988 radiocarbon dating.

Unfortunately, that research never reaches the media hype as dose the most recent noise about the Shroud of Turin and makes it extremely difficult to find research funding.

So far all you have demonstrated in your comment is your ignorance and I challenge you to prove me wrong as I have in the past given all the other insults received over the years. I stand by my research and science and had the courage to provide my name at the bottom of my commentary. I would challenge you to do the same.

[cnmbarfoot]

P.S.-hitting the submit button twice proves I am a clutz

[cnmbarfoot]

The Bible states that Jesus was wrapped in strips of cloth and that there was a separate cloth for his head. Debunking the shroud has as much impact upon Christianity as debunking the cherry tree incident has upon Goerge Washington. The truth is much more important and interesting than the fables.

[cnmbarfoot]

The Bible states that Jesus was wrapped in strips of cloth and that there was a separate cloth for his head. Debunking the shroud has as much impact upon Christianity as debunking the cherry tree incident has upon Goerge Washington. The truth is much more important and interesting than the fables.

[endurorob_5]

Forgot to mention the blood stains on the feet are also in the icorrect place. When crucified a nail was driven through the ankles to the side of the vertical beam.

[Virgil-1]

What has bad science ever proved?
Christians are to live by faith,not
the vain theorys of mad scientists.

[thgdriver]

I have seen this burial cloth for years and the debate over it's authenticity. Is it real? Of course it is real, it's there, you can touch it, feel it, see it. Does it have anything to do with the man known as Jesus Christ? I think not! Over and over it has been proven to be made sometime during the 12 to 14th century. It is long past time to move on.

[jackp32]

May those debunking the Shroud be damned to everlasting he*ll.

[slownewsday_5]

You would've looooved the Spanish Inquisition!

[rf35]

I see now value in re-debunking a debunked myth. Seems to me these guys simply had too much time on their hands.

[bubbadubba]

I believe in God and Jesus Christ but I never believed that shroud was related to Him so whether or not it is fake or real has no affect on my beliefs.
As for the atheists, I don't hate you for attacking my beliefs but why do you hate God and his followers since you say God is not real? That is illogical.
Agnostics are a lot smarter than atheists, agnostics do not believe either way and they do not attack others for believing.
Atheism is has been declared a religion by the US Courts, Agnostics are not part of any religion.
So when atheists attack religions they are attacking themselves.

[inketolstoy]

The atheists spent time and money to prove that something they don't believe in might not exist. That makes sense. Would anyone be willing to donate thousands (or millions) of dollars for a group of us to travel up to the North pole to prove that Santa Clause doesn't exist? Methinks the atheists do protest too much.

[slownewsday_5]

Nice analogy between Jesus and Santa. Kudos.

[dragon8me]

It was proven a fake back when the U of A carbon dated it. I'll believe science, especially when it's been repeted, over myth any time.

[taxchurches]

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn. This thing was exposed as a fraud in the 14th century, and Joe Nickell of the Skeptical Enquirer duplicated it in the 90s. I'm bored.

[jphoenixs]

Part II

A possible explanation (my best guess at this time), emitted neutrons were captured by nitrogen and/or carbon 12 and carbon13 atoms in the highly organized crystal lattice structure (DNA molecules have been described as liquid crystals by researchers) of the DNA molecules of the flax plant. Not yet proven but like silicon computer chips the function of the DNA molecule is predicated on theories in Quantum Mechanics causing interactions with subatomic particles. Possibly these are the fundamental force of nature which is responsible for not only life on earth but the existence of physical mater in the universe. In addition, the mass of carbon 14 varies proportionally as does the body image given the distance the cloth would have been from the body during the resurrection.

The rates of beta decay are so small when the carbon 14 goes through its half-life decay reverting back to nitrogen 14 atoms, it would be very difficult to make measurements using conventional Geiger?Müller counters. Destroying the shroud further to perform conventional carbon 14 testing to determine if the mass of carbon 14 varies proportionally, as does the body image, is unconceivable. Therefore, I have proposed several methods of testing the linen, of which includes using a technique similar to making contact prints when developing photography film, but using very sensitive/high speed x-ray methodology and increasing the exposure time to several months. With x-rays photons are emitted from the electron shells and with beta decay, the mechanism in which carbon 14 decays; electrons are emitted from the nucleus of atoms.

Given the fact that a singularity possibly existed in the tomb sometime before the resurrection (explanation of this fact is quite involved), when applying Nuclear Physics, Quantum Mechanics, Hubble?s Law and The Big Bang Theory the holy shroud has a miraculous story to tell. In light of those scientific facts, once you can move pasted the implication that Jesus was dead in the tomb and resurrected to a glorified body, the bigger picture is then what is the Shroud of Turin and what does it tell us about who Jesus really was? Possibly a new understanding of the universe itself?

When applying Occam?s Razor after examining all the scientific data known about the holy shroud objectively, including the results of the 1988 radiocarbon dating, logically the simplest conclusion it is truly the burial cloth of Jesus Christ.

Since 1994 I have written numerous letters proposing non destructive scientific testing, if correct, can explain the mechanism in which the body image was formed ultimately proving the Holy Shroud to be the cloth that covered Jesus? body during the event of the resurrection. To date those letters have included his Holiness Pope John Paul, II, His Eminence Cardinal Giovanni Saldarini, The Honorable Rush Holt, Ph.D. (United States Congressman) and Dr. John Jackson.

Possibly my letters have gone unanswered because the world isn?t ready for the truth that the Shroud of Turin can tell us about who and what we really are - energy, matter, space and time. Again, a new understanding of the universe, clearly knowledge Jesus must have had.

Truth is truth no matter where you find it or how controversial ?

Jeffrey Skurka, PE

[bill0bob]

Whack-job!

[jphoenixs]

Part I

Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin, in response to the above referenced article; again I say the Shroud of Turin is authentic!

When viewing the two photographs objectively you would have to say there is a distinction in the quality of the resolution of the two images, with the picture of the Shroud of Turin being the better of the two examples.

For the most part, to include the above referenced article, one of the mysteries that remain is the mechanism in which the body image was formed on the linen cloth. The results of the radiocarbon dating and the conjugate carbonyl molecules, of which the body image is known to be, were created by ionizing radiation inclusive of a neutron flux, thus accounting for the discrepancy in the radiocarbon dating age of the linen cloth.

I am a licensed Professional Engineer practicing in the nuclear industry. Since 1994 I have been researching the enigma that exists with respect to the results of the 1988 radio carbon dating if the Shroud of Turin were truly from the time of Jesus? crucifixion. In 1998 I had the opportunity to have a modern day linen sample bombarded with thermal neutrons from a nuclear reactor and gamma rays from a cesium source. The objective was then to have the sample exposed to thermal neutrons tested for radioactive carbon when compared to the control sample from which the swatch of linen was cut.

Below I have basically outlined a mechanism using nuclear physics in which the body image could have been formed. In my opinion given the most recent article, the mechanism in which the body image was formed has yet been proven inclusive of the conjugate carbonyl molecules and the results of the 1988 radiocarbon dating.

Relevance of the Shroud of Turin to Nuclear Energy:

When the nuclei of nitrogen atoms, absorb thermal neutrons they form radioactive carbon C-14.

When nuclei of atoms capture neutrons, known as absorption or radiative capture, the nucleus emits gamma radiation.

Both gamma rays and neutrons are forms of ionizing radiation. They have the ability to strip electrons away from atoms.

Ionizing gamma rays are known to create conjugate carbonyl molecules in cellulose (linen fiber.)

The body image being only on the surface fibrils of the linen cloth can be the results of a photoelectric effect.

[truthislife1]

I been a Christian for 30 years and do not believe the shroud held the Lord Jesus. He was beat up and marred far beyond what the image shows.

[ToolMangler1]

I have been a christian for more than 60 years and have learned that "even if it was Christs shroud" it counts for nothing. I worship GOD/Christ not a piece of cloth. I Pray to GOD, not Mary or any Icon.

[formrusmcsgt]

"Scientists Try to Debunk Shroud of Turin"

"In 1988, scientists used radiocarbon dating to determine it was made in the 13th or 14th century."
---
How can one debunk the already debunked?

This is downright silly reporting. The group in the article proved a process for fabrication.

The debunking took place 20 years ago.

[endurorob_5]

Exactly. The radio carbon dating proved it to be a fake. Also the blood stains on the wrists are incorrect. They would have been in the palm of the hand.

[ToolMangler1]

"the blood stains on the wrists are incorrect. They would have been in the palm of the hand. "


The nails would have ripped out of the hand but 'not' the wrist.
I thought you would know the facts before you attempt to "trash' Christianity.

[DoubleHappiness88]

?I do not find in Christianity one redeeming feature. Religions are all alike ? founded upon fables and mythologies.? ~ Thomas Jefferson

[ToolMangler1]

Then he didn't read the whole Bible, especially the section that says
"In as much as you have done it to the least of these 'your brethren', you have done it unto me" [Matthew 25:40] (Christs words).
No other religion makes that 'indictment against man!!

You may worship Jefferson if you wish,
I will continue to worship GOD..

[coffeestain]

The Italian group think that they may have been able to recreate the Shroud of Turin. Maybe they have? But, I'd love for them to try and recreate the coffee stained image of the Virgin Mary I personally have. A few photos of the image can be found here on Flickr. http://www.flickr.com/photos/7690119@N03/sets/72157617453203072/detail/

[DoubleHappiness88]

We have no way of knowing the name of such an image but anything that ugly would have to be a virgin. Looks more like The Virgin Brunhilda.

[cs4466]

The REAL question is ... why was someone drinking coffee out of a glass?

[endurorob_5]

You see what you want to see. I see Jabba the Hut.

[cs4466]

The followers of religion fall into a few categories.

A) The desperate wailers, who because of some tragic life event think they have no other way to cope than to cling to a religion
B) The hateful bigots, who find a religion that suits their bigotries and, therefore, their bigotries are from "God" and must be "ok"
C) The ignorant masses, who use religion because they simply don't know any better or are too lazy or stupid to do consider doing anything differently
D) The fearful investors, who believe if they don't do what they're "supposed" to do they can't secure heavenly real estate for their cushy afterlife plans

Then there's the "pathetic", which comprise groups A, B, C and D.