Americans Historically Resistant to Reform

Sunday Morning: Health Care Debate Provides 'Forum' for GOP Voters to Voice Frustration Months After Losing Election

(CBS)  It was by any measure a rough week for congressional Democrats.

"Members of Congress are getting more than an earful," political professor Larry Sabato, who directs the University of Virginia's Center for Politics, told CBS News Correspondent Sharyl Attkisson for CBS' "Sunday Morning." "They're getting a belly full."

And the loudest belly-achers got a boost from the media, Sabato said.

"Whenever you have people yelling and screaming and shouting, there's hype involved, and the coverage always exaggerates those who do the shouting," Sabato said. "It's the most exciting television. Let's face it. It gets on and is replayed over and over. So there is some hype, and that's why it gets on but it's wrong to suggest there are no legitimate concerns."

Sabato said the frustration has been months in the making.

"It's about a whole range of issues that started to develop last November after Barack Obama's election," Sabato said. "Then as Obama started making appointments, getting a stimulus bill passed, proposing a health care initiative, all of this further irritated the 46 percent who voted against him … You can almost see that the anger and frustration have built up month after month, and it's exploded, and the proximate cause of the explosion is health care."

Gibbs: No "Postal Service" for Health Care

Public Option Up in the Air After Comments

What Do We Really Know About Health Reform?
For Obama, Health Care Reform Gets Personal

It seems like health care reform is something the public loves and at the same time the public hates. You constantly hear people talk about how expensive their insurance is, how bad their medical plans are, but as soon as there's talk of health care reform it's like people freeze up.

"It's so complicated you can always finds something in the weeds to make people frightened," Brown University political science professor James Marone said.

Marone is co-author of a book about presidents and health-care reform, including former President Johnson's fight for Medicare.

"We have some wonderful telephone tapes in which Johnson described to a newly elected Ted Kennedy how to get Medicare passed," Marone said. "He said, 'Don't let 'em cost it out. Don't let 'em project the costs down the line. It'll kill you.' He thought that if people knew the full costs of Medicare it would never have passed, and he kept trying to lowball the estimates. And this was before the Office of Management and Budget. But we believe - we say in the book - that if we knew the costs, Medicare, one of the two most popular programs in America never would have passed."

Now we do know the price tag for health-care reform - hundreds of billions - and for millions of voters, it's a tough pill to swallow.

"The one problem we have that we didn't have in the mid 60's is the debt and deficit," Sabato said. "And I really think that's what's causing many moderate Americans who would otherwise favor health care reform to step back and wonder whether it's true that the president will sign a bill that won't raise the deficit. That's easy to say but our whole modern experience is that every government program ends up costing a lot more than projected and that it does indeed add to the deficit and the debt."

And that could give health care opponents plenty to yell about in the days to come.

"Do you think we're destined to repeat this pattern, where we complain about our health care and by the end maybe don't do anything major about it?" Attkisson asked Marone.

"It actually does seem like Groundhog Day through the years," Marone said. "But I actually think the problems are so acute they keep coming back on the agenda and that sooner or later - well, it's like Winston Churchill says: 'Count on Americans to do the right thing, after they've exhausted all other possibilities.'"

[jckbrn-2009]

"So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen."
Far too many comment from a state of ignorance - -
READ HR3200 - - that's the proposed legislation to be voted on ! !
Commenting on something you haven't read is stupid and ignorant (stupid is without intelligence - ignorant is without knowledge) - -
This is not a sporting contest and the results are for a long time.
READ the bill (it's available online) - - it's not "ObamaCare" - it's not "universal H/C" - - Don't take any single paragraph and talk about that - -
READ THE PROPOSED LEGISLATION ! ! ! ALL 1100 PAGES - - This legislation wasn't written in the last couple of months; it's been ready for a long time and is just now being submitted - - Don't generalize and use euphasims to debater a position on this very important matter - - - Know what the truth is by reading the bill ! ! !

[fariborzzak]

U need a Revolution in USA.

[Lawyers-Guns-n-Money]

by jahmourner August 17, 2009 4:01 PM EDT

1. Never claimed any such thing. Don't know whether to attribute this to your keen reading comprehension skills or your wanton use of propaganda, Mr. Goebbels.

2. Hitler saw the struggle of the nation and race as fundamental in society, in opposition to communism's perception of class struggle. They promoted race and country to the degree that it was seen as a mark of unity, purity and strength. This is a hardcore right-wing tenet -- racial purity. It actually defines right-wing extremism.

Hitler saw imperialism as an imperative. Fascists such as Hitler were adamantly opposed to pacifism. They promoted a warrior mentality.

I would continue but I have a feeling I'd be wasting my time.

3. If you can't figure out the difference between being mentally challenged and being competent, I don't know what help I can offer you.

[ianlou]

Ever notice that most of these Teabaggers are always pointing at people as they rant? (see photo)

How Rude.

[bradkt1]

Thank you Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi...for nothing!!! The two of you are the two worst and weakest House and Senate leaders that the Democratic Party has ever had. Your idea of management of the legislative process is to disappear and let the committee chairman do whatever the h*** they want...and they are definitely off the reservation! They are trying to cut deals left and right with an opposition that has no intention of compromising with the Democrats...the GOP is just playing for time and are playing them for fools. Meanwhile, the rest of the Democrats in Congress have nothing to defend because the committee chairman didn't do their job and produce bills out of their committees...and Democrats everywhere are wondering what the h*** is going on.

Of course we are supposed to believe that it just happens to be a coincidence that these same committee chairman are among the largest recipients of special interest political contributions by the health care industry...the same health care industry that these chairman don't want a public option to compete with (sarcasm and disgust intended).

Because the committee chairman haven't produced anything, conservatives can say whatever they want and Democrats have nothing to defend. This is how and why the Democrats lost their political momentum. I don't blame the GOP. They saw their opening and pounced on it.

This wouldn't have happened under the leadership of either Tip O'Neil or Lyndon Johnson...or any of the past Senate majority leaders that the Democrats have had...and they managed to herd Democrats through a lot more than healthcare reform.

When the legislature doesn't deliver and you control a filibuster-proof majority, it is the fault of the legislative leaders. On healthcare reform, the Democratic Congress didn't even get to first base before the August recess. The committee chairmen are pursuing their own agenda...as opposed to the Democratic Party's agenda.

[Lawyers-Guns-n-Money]

by jahmourner August 17, 2009 12:49 AM EDT

I'll ask you the basic question: how many 12 year olds do YOU know, let alone mentally challenged 12 year olds, who are "competent" to decide whether they should live or die?
========================================================

Talk about mentally challenged.

How many times do I have to draw the distinction between mentally challenged and competent?

You are a lot less intelligent than you give yourself credit for; that's for sure. And 'a lot' is a HUGE understatement.

[Lawyers-Guns-n-Money]

by jahmourner August 17, 2009 12:42 AM EDT
I'm not rewriting anything. I'm simply stating the facts.

I am to take it that any socialist who turns out to be bad really wasn't a socialist?

If so, then why bother calling one's self a socialist?
=============================================

You mean facts like all those neo-nazi sympathizers aren't right wing extremists and that they're just misguided socialists? The same non-extremists that hold Hitler's ideologies in such high esteem? Those kinds of facts?

[Lawyers-Guns-n-Money]

by jahmourner August 17, 2009 12:03 AM EDT
Sorry, euthanasia IS the same thing as eugenics,
=======================

do you just feign the most modest degree of intellect? Really, equating euthanasia with eugenics.

Again, I refer to your total lack of reading comprehension skills to grasp the meaning of the word COMPETENT. In other words, mentally challenged individuals are not capable (read: competent) of making an input into the decision to end their own life.

Of course you would be morbid enough to consider it a moral prerogative to have an individual suffer severe and chronic pain as long as you could keep them alive to suffer that pain.

There once was a guy named Joseph Mengele...

[Lawyers-Guns-n-Money]

by jahmourner August 16, 2009 11:38 PM EDT
Rookie mistake? Right. All of those socializt programs the nazis introduced -- "free" health care, nationalization of industry, government regulation of everything, especially thought and the free expression thereof, gun control, euthanasia -- those were just the kind of things nationalists do, not socialists.

So, I guess I can rest assured that just because you folks and your analogues (with the emphasis on anal) in countries like Venezuela, don't openly call yourselves nazis, I can expect something different from you than from old 'Dolf.

What a... fool you are.
====================================================

Do you, by chance, really intend to revise history by painting the nazis as ardent leftists? If so, that really WOULD be rich.

[ubrew12]

Lawyers-Guns-n-Money said: "Do you, by chance, really intend to revise history by painting the nazis as ardent leftists? If so, that really WOULD be rich."

Dude, Jahmourner is serious. Weep for the loss of history. They say that the winners get to write history. Surely this is proof of that.

Communists have enough to answer for, without you rewriting everything socialists do as Nazi, Jahmourner. Get your history right, if you do nothing else. That's just really, really sad.

[Lawyers-Guns-n-Money]

by jahmourner August 16, 2009 10:55 PM EDT
Read the statute. Euthanizing 12 year olds is EXACTLY what has been happening in the Netherlands.

You were given the citation, and you STILL deny that this is happening?

Please, tell me: if it isn't the 12 year olds making these "end of life" decisions, then who's making them for them?

That's the entire point, you fool. The fact is, 12 year olds are being euthanized in Flanders. The fact also is, they aren't the ones deciding to end their own lives, because they aren't competent, either because they're retarded, or because they're 12.
=====================================================

Now for your lesson in reading comprehension, to wit, I submit the following from one of YOUR previous posts:

"In the Netherlands, euthanasia is legally accepted for competent persons 12 years old..."

What do you not understand about the word competent? If you were to read further into the text of the law, you would find that "For 12- to 15-year-olds, parental agreement is required" "But in the case of a refusal by ONE of the parents, the request of a minor may be accepted if the doctor is convinced that this will mean avoiding serious suffering."

So if you were to look at the law more carefully, the Dutch have decided that COMPETENT persons aged twelve, with the consent of parents, are granted the RIGHT to choose to have their life ended. "...mental incapacity prevented 1,000 from explicitly asking to die." Again, if you are not competent and have NOT reached the age of consent, you cannot be involved in your decision to end your suffering.

P.S. euthanasia is not the same as eugenics. Nice try though.

[Lawyers-Guns-n-Money]

by jahmourner August 16, 2009 11:01 PM EDT
No, JAHPDQ was banned because you or some other liberal troll complained and so CBS decided, well, it just had to act. But, Michael Moore gets a seat at the Democrat convention for doing the exact same thing JAHPDQ was doing -- because his victims are conservatives.

You folks are always great at turning the putative victim into the "aggressor." What, you're mad because we want to double your taxes? Well, you are just a mean spirited person who needs to be taught a lesson.

Fact is, you guys sit there day after day and call conservatives names and accuse us of being Nazis and mouth-breathing knuckle draggers; when always it's you guys wanting to euthanize someone, or pick their pocket, or take some right or other away from them.

We put up with 8 years of virulent attacks against George Bush and anyone who dared join his administration, and now you get bent out of shape because a little profanity gets rightly thrown in your direction?

======================================================

Your problem is, you seem wont to lump anyone who disagrees with you or calls you out as being nonsensical as someone who is diametrically opposed in ideology. If you will take the time to scroll back to my first post on this very page, you will notice I called someone else out for the same vulgarity which you displayed. That individual seemed to be on the opposite end of the ideological spectrum as you.

Your name was retired not through any act of mine though. As a matter of fact, I'm a bit surprised that I that I too was not booted for reposting your vulgarity -- for posterity's sake. And do you always refer to yourself in the third person?

You see comfortable propping yourself up as an exalted form of intelligence when I've more than once pointed out to you your arguments are flawed and illogical. And I'm about to do it again as you just don't seem to possess a great deal of reading comprehension skills.

But before I get to that, where in my posts have I attacked conservatives? If you are a conservative and the evidence suggests you are, I've only called into question your rudimentary grasp of the issues you've responded to. In essence, NONE of them have been well thought out and some are nothing but propaganda.

[Lawyers-Guns-n-Money]

by jahmourner August 16, 2009 9:04 PM EDT
Well, CBS News finally decided it had had enough of the truth and banned JAHPDQ. Great job, guys. Making too much sense.
================================================================

They probably objected to your dropping of the f-bomb in your posts. You must be new to this forum. You should respect the fact that young minds might be perusing these comment blogs and that their parents might not be to keen on you exposing them to such 'colorful' language.

[Lawyers-Guns-n-Money]

by the_majesty August 16, 2009 9:23 PM EDT
I'm in a position I can retire completely.
I don't need a damn thing Obama has to offer.
I have enough money to buy several Doctors.
I'm more interested in keeping America free.
American Patriots must not sit back and let
Obama take our Rights and Freedoms.
I'm not sure what I'm going to do.
I was planning to travel the world and just
enjoy myself. Now I fell I must stay and fidht this TYRANT,
Obama. He is hard at work destroying America.
I will put pleasure on hold and stand and fight with
true American Patriots. I will fight to the death if
thats what it takes. I owe that much to my Father.
We all owe that much to our forefathers.
============================================

Our favorite rube is BACK!

One question. All this jingoist blathering about being a patriot, you nut cases alway talk about dying for your cause but never about who you want to kill.

[kesac4650]

Americans are not historically resistant to reform. Every bozo who comes along pretending to be "Change you can believe in", seems to get elected.
It is also dishonest of this author to pretend that LBJ didn't have a deficit or a national debt to contend with when Medicare was passed. He is the President that told us we could "Have guns or butter", in the budget, but could no longer afford both. It turns out the President has absolutely no control over the budget. That has been taken away by Congress, and Obama has no say in the budget either. He certainly will not veto the Federal Budget, when it is presented for his signature.

[Lawyers-Guns-n-Money]

by jahmourner August 16, 2009 9:06 PM EDT
Oh, I never realized mentally challenged 12 year olds were competent to make end-of-life decisions.

You sicken me.
===============================================================

P.S. Mentally challenged person don't qualify as 'competent.' At least according to physicians in the Netherlands.

[Lawyers-Guns-n-Money]

by jahmourner August 16, 2009 9:06 PM EDT
Oh, I never realized mentally challenged 12 year olds were competent to make end-of-life decisions.

You sicken me.
==================================================

Be sick all you want. It probably says more about their twelve year olds' abilities than it does for this country's supposed adults. Especially the ones making laws that take away the right to make a decision concerning the right to terminate a person's own life because of severe suffering and a terminal prognosis. You further realize that even decisions made beforehand in the form of DNR orders are often times ignored because of someone else's (other than the individual or their family) moral judgements. And if you take your propagandist blinders off you will realize that this procedure only take into account the minor's input. In other words, the parents MUST be involved in the decision and the minor has to agree to it.

[the_majesty]

I'm in a position I can retire completely.
I don't need a damn thing Obama has to offer.
I have enough money to buy several Doctors.
I'm more interested in keeping America free.
American Patriots must not sit back and let
Obama take our Rights and Freedoms.
I'm not sure what I'm going to do.
I was planning to travel the world and just
enjoy myself. Now I fell I must stay and fidht this TYRANT,
Obama. He is hard at work destroying America.
I will put pleasure on hold and stand and fight with
true American Patriots. I will fight to the death if
thats what it takes. I owe that much to my Father.
We all owe that much to our forefathers.

[Lawyers-Guns-n-Money]

by jahpdq August 16, 2009 8:38 PM EDT
I call idiots idiots, and you are one.

Oh, and about Flanders, here's this:

"In the Netherlands, euthanasia is legally accepted for competent persons 12 years old who have a limited life expectancy and experience severe and persistent suffering."

By the way, the Netherlands just got dinged last year for "aborting" children up to the age of 12. ===============================================

Talk about your morons!

So your comparing decisions about ending a life 'made by the individual in question' to abortion?

Your last name isn't Goebbels is it? (Pssst, your brown shirt is peaking out)

[CPelzar]

Not against reform, against Obamas reform.

[Lawyers-Guns-n-Money]

by jahpdq August 16, 2009 6:55 PM EDT
Hong Kong has the "best" health care in the world? And Hong Kong is... rich, prosperous and the only place in China where unfettered capitalism has a chance to operate.

Way to make your point, moron.
==================================

Tut tut. The argument you were trying to make is that Honk Kong is WAY to the left of us because they have socialized medicine. Follow your own logic. They can't be prosperous and socialized at the same time.

Oh, and by the way, all those countries that you tick off that have right leaning governments; if we were to establish even the most conservative of any EU ideals here, you'd be SCREAMING BLOODY MURDER about how socialist we've become.

As an aside, sometimes our brand of conservatism does get in the way of progress. I submit to you...the metric system.