Inside Holland's "Half Baked" Pot Policy

Amid Calls for Marijuana Legalization in the U.S., CBSNews.com Looks at the Lessons of the Dutch Approach

(CBS) 
Lessons From The Dutch:

Dutch public opinion over the nation's drug policy has long been split, with polls usually suggesting that a slim majority favor the coffee shop-based system. In recent years, however, the country has moved to become more restrictive, thanks in large part to resentment over the impact of so-called "drug tourists," whose partying has long angered locals.

In 2007, the Netherlands banned the use of psychedelic mushrooms (which had essentially been treated as soft drugs) after a drug-related suicide, and several municipalities have moved to close coffee shops to discourage crime and drug tourism. The U.S. Department Of Justice says that 81 percent of the country's municipalities did not allow coffee shops as far back as 2000. One Dutch professor predicts there will be no more coffee shops in Holland by 2010, thanks in large part to anger over drug tourists.

One of the key debates around pot policy in Holland, the U.S. and elsewhere centers on the question of destigmatization - whether or not giving the drug the imprimatur of legality will drive up usage rates. Joel W. Hay, a Clinical Pharmacy and Pharmaceutical Economics & Policy at the University Of Southern California and an opponent of marijuana legalization, says yes.

"A lot of people are now getting the clear social signal that pot is not that great because it is illegal" in the United States, he said. "It certainly doesn't deter use, but it probably deters a substantial amount, and that's for the good."

But Reinerman argues that destigmatization is a "tricky question."

"I interviewed a Dutch parent once and asked about this, and he told me, 'my son will smoke a little pot now and then, but mostly it doesn't occur to him to do that. There's no allure of the forbidden fruit,'" he said.

Reinerman allows that "in the first six months or a year or two [after legalization] there might be an increase" in marijuana use, but says the destigmitization that would come with legalization ultimately works both ways. "Availability is not destiny," he argues.

Peter Reuter, a University of Maryland professor of criminology, believes that any increase in usage rates if marijuana were decriminalized would be modest. He points to the fact that Dutch marijuana users tend to give up the drug at the same time as Americans do - in their 20s.

"I'm reasonably confident that if we followed the Dutch model we would not see a big uptick in usage," he said.

That could depend, however, on whether the United States could successfully follow one aspect of the Dutch policy that both legalization advocates and opponents laud: its ban on advertising. Hay notes that under a legalization policy business interests would be incentivized to try to drive up demand.

In the United States, he argues, a policy that bans advertising on legal marijuana would raise questions of Constitutionality. (Congress and the Obama administration did recently pass legislation more strictly limiting tobacco advertising.)

"I think it would be tightly contested whether restrictions could be put on it, because the adverse health effects are not that great," said Reuter. "Potential producers could bring suit."

These sorts of complex questions are being seriously considered in some American circles for the first time since the 1970s. The federal government, however, is not exactly joining the conversation. Though new drug czar Gil Kerlikowske has been lauded for his emphasis of treatment over incarceration - and for abandoning the phrase "war on drugs" - he recently told Rolling Stone that legalization is not something worth considering "under any circumstances."

Hay believes there is simply no good reason to abandon the status quo and emulate the Dutch policy, let alone move to full legalization.

"We have a philosophical question if potheads should be able to [use marijuana], and they sort of already can," he said. "It's not really that illegal right now. And I think having society saying this is something you shouldn't do, but we don't throw the book at you when you do it, is sort of a socially optimal policy."

But while medical marijuana use has been decriminalized in some areas of the country, police still arrest between 750,000 and 900,000 people per year on marijuana-related charges, the vast majority for possession.

"It just should be accepted that cannabis is consumed by hundreds of millions of people around the world," said Boekhout van Solinge. "When governments arrest people, it hasn't stopped people from consuming cannabis."

[A9SecondSleeper]

"We have a philosophical question if potheads should be able to [use marijuana], and they sort of already can," he said. "It's not really that illegal right now. And I think having society saying this is something you shouldn't do, but we don't throw the book at you when you do it, is sort of a socially optimal policy."

Excuse me? How can it be optimal policy when people get mugged in the street when they go to purchase their desired product? Or have their possessions stripped from them by the police and forced to pay a fine for something that's supposedly "de facto legal." And how many Americans are disenfranchised simply because of drug possession? What kind of free society do we live in?

And you wouldn't call a person who enjoys a beer on occasion an alcoholic, so don't refer to all who use cannabis (marijuana) as potheads. (you butt head)

[sarcasticfrog]

They also pass out needles to prevent spreading of diseases from heroin. They have blue lights in the bathrooms to prevent public use of heroin. They have police protect prostitutes, and each one of them under go monthly exams for diseases. To most Europeans, a joint is no more a bigger deal than drinking a beer. The Netherlands has a lower marijuana usage than America, and all of Europe has a far less overdose deaths and communicable disease from the use of heroin.

Don't think so? You should look up Rick Steves... the travel guy from PBS.

It isn't if it is better or worse... it is about HARM REDUCTION. We Americans are ignorant if you think we can stop people from doing something they WANT TO DO.

Decriminalize cannabis and legalize industrial hemp.

[apple2pie]

Weed smoke causes Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease just like smoke from a regular cigarette. GREAT lets increase the cost of medical care!

[cannabisissafe]

Cannabis smoke DOES NOT cause COPD! Get your facts straight.

[scottportraits2]

We should learn from the Dutch.

And remember, all that violence in Mexico is largely about marijuana. The 'cartels' report 60-70% of their profits are from pot. Another study found 2/3 the grass in America is from Mexico.

Would America spend 11,000 lives to fight a war over grass in.....Cuba? or Canada? or the Philippines ?

C'mon, let's stop facilitating genocide in Mexico. Where is your conscience, America ??

[cannabisissafe]

itoldyouso

you are not a mother of two- you are certainly either a cop or in the DEA- NO DOUBT. you are so full of it. pull your head out!!

[IHateHumanity]

Are we free men or are we slaves? Do I own my body or does the state own my body? That is what the issue of drugs comes down to.

Joel Hay is another vow breaking doctor. Doctors take a vow to do no harm. What is more harmful to the patient:

arresting, fining, and imprisoning people who use substances the doctor thinks they shouldn't
OR
letting the patient decide for themselves what is put into their own bodies (patients are still allowed too refuse treatment last time I checked)


Are we free or are we slaves, what's it gonna it be?

[cannabisissafe]

BTW- I have a masters degree, a verified IQ of 146, a job that pays a generous income, responsibility in all my affairs and finances, and I LOVE TO GET HIGH. Oh, and- I dont drink alcohol outside of the occasional beer or wine, use any prescription meds, or use any illicit drugs. I am not the exception.

You greatly need to find something more constructive to do with your time.
But hey- keep propping up the stereotypes, it seems to be all you are good at.

[cannabisissafe]

Lets give a BIG ROUND OF APPLAUSE to SEEITOLDUSO

I counted 57 responses from itoldyouso!!!!!

Good job!

Out of the current 187 posts you have posted 57 times! Roughly A THIRD of the comments here are from you- any chance you are on meds for Obsessive Compulsive Disorder? ....OR are you affiliated with an organization that supports prohibition? I strongly suspect the latter. At any rate you definitely seem to have an incredible amount of time on your hands to have been posting 57! comments from 8:30 am to after 6pm with such diligence. I guess there has to be SOMEBODY to respond to the overwhelming number of posters supporting legalization.

So much to say about something you yourself have posted you have NEVER tried.
You did say that if it was legal you would probably try it to see what the fuss is about. In another post you say you live in Holland-- where you can smoke it for all intents and purposes "legally", yet you haven't. IF you are in Holland as you claim, I'm curious how the timestamps of all your posts correspond to a US time zone and not one that is hours ahead of New York. -- Or do you frequently stay up all night in Holland to stay glued to this message board when you have an alleged 2 kids to take care of. GREAT PARENTING.

Your story doesn't add up, and you spend too much time ignoring factual arguments choosing instead to vomit your own repeatedly. It kind of makes me think you are somebody with a vested interest in the continued prohibition of one of the safest substances ever ingested by mankind(I'd say outside of food and water, but both of those can kill you), but ill let that go. It doesn't matter anyway as you are on the losing side of this argument. It is simply a matter of time.

You do so much talking for someone with zero personal experience of the matter. At least most all of the people in here that support legalization know what hell they are talking about, by experience.

57 posts? You seem so uptight that you could probably use a joint or two.

But hey, I used to be exactly like you- my mind just could not justify the use of this plant. Then, I started traveling around the world, opening my eyes to what was really happening outside of the indoctrination I received growing up in my conservative christian city. I tried pot a few times. I didn't like it at first, but doing it socially I began to realize that my notions on the matter were completely backwards, as yours are. But herein lies the crux when it comes to this legalization argument. I DONT CARE that you can't wrap your head around why pot should be legal. You, however, with 57 posts at last count, are so intent on getting your view across, even though nobody is really listening to you. The thing is, no matter what the current laws say, provided I am not harming anyone with my actions, it is my RIGHT as a SOVEREIGN HUMAN BEING to put whatever substance I choose into MY OWN body. You can spout off all you want, but NOTHING will change this fact, and this is the reason why there is so much cannabis use in this country despite FAILED prohibition.

Considering you have posted 57 times today, consistently ignoring the arguments that could correct your flawed thinking, I am sure it would be nothing short of stupidity to try to reason with you, so, I'll offer up a few core-beliefs instead:

1-Keeping things illegal for adults because kids may use it is stupid. Particularly when regulation will keep it better out of their hands.

2-Using the DUI argument to keep cannabis away from ADULTS is stupid too- Potential DUI's is NOT a strong enough argument to keep it away from the MAJORITY OF RESPONSIBLE ADULTS who want to partake.

3-Puritanical and moral arguments. You CANNOT legislate morality. I find NOTHING wrong with getting high. Just because YOU do is NOT enough justification for keeping ME from doing it. If I had my way we'd make all your invisible sky gods with unqualified promises of some afterlife illegal. Good thing for you, eh?

4- It can be taxed. Most domestic growers would gladly do it legally and pay for an annual permit instead of facing all the serious repercussions of getting raided. They would be registered and would transfer their product to dispensaries where it would be taxed by the unit.

I know this will fall on deaf ears, and that you will excitedly scribble your post # 58, 65, 77, or whatever number you are up to at the moment back at me with another inane argument that you think is perfect. Knowing that I'm talking to a brick wall who won't see the truth in my words, it is time for me to ---OOOOOOH, go smoke a bowl, finish the the book I'm reading on conceptual physics, and eat some health food.

[clbrown4]

Marijuana can be addictive and has a withdrawal syndrome for a large group of users which is now recognized. It is more addictive for early users than adults. It is not as addictive as some other substances. Cigarettes, the most addictive, are classified as 32% and marijuana as 10% with others in between. The withdrawal syndrome includes insomnia and/or nightmares, irritability, sweating, diarrhea, cravings. It can be quite intense in a heavy user. The nightmares occur because REM sleep is disturbed in marijuana users. I've witnessed the withdrawal and it was pretty scary as the individual became very aggressive and had rages.

The negative effects of marijuana include lung damage and problems with concentration and short term memory. It seems to make people self-absorbed and want to do nothing but get high rather than partake in any kind of achievement or plan for the future. The effects are fairly subtle, which can be deceptive, because people think it is benign, but for some people it can really make one waste his/her life away being stoned.

I'm sure that being hooked on meth or cocaine or heroin would be more tragic--and many marijuana abusers do go on to those drugs--but marijuana abuse can itself be a tragic waste of a life.

Most people get off marijuana in their 20's because they have to move on with their lives and they lose opportunities because of drug testing, they have kids and have to take on responsibilities of the adult world. But some have already moved on to other drugs and some just remain in a state of arrested development.

Since marijuana wouldn't be legal for under 21, legalizing would send the wrong message to the young people that start it when their brains and lungs are still developing.

[BruceHulvey]

"One is half baked when on pot, you can recognize them as soon as they talk,even the occasional user. They think they're intelligent and perceptive, but their logic and eyes give them away. That "half baked" turns to brain fried when most pot smokers eventually turn to hard drugs in search of a better high."

How much more wrong could you be?

I've always noticed the complete opposite. MOST people have no idea when a person has smoked pot. And that is why quite a few of you are so frightened by it. Besides, I've also seen plenty of people who act high or just aren't the brightest bulbs in the box. With alcohol a person can clearly see you are under the influence of something. Same goes for prescription drugs. I can pick a pill head out of any crowd.

You run into and know people who smoke pot every single day. They know how you feel about it and do not wish for you to know. Obviously.

How frustrating it has got to be to have fought for so long, lost so many good people along the way, and spent so much of our tax dollars only to realize, oh the horror of it all, no has budged an inch. LIES get you no where quick. And that's why it won't work.

[jankebenzone]

One is half baked when on pot, you can recognize them as soon as they talk,even the occasional user. They think they're intelligent and perceptive, but their logic and eyes give them away. That "half baked" turns to brain fried when most pot smokers eventually turn to hard drugs in search of a better high.

[Lawyers-Guns-n-Money]

Experience or half-baked theory?

[robinspp]

If someone wanted to use drugs they will get it illegally any way. Legalizing the drugs does not mean everyone is going to use. Tobacco is freely available, how many are using. So it is up to the people to choose from good or bad. As long as it is not going to be a disturbance for others, it is acceptable.

[rwsmith29456]

Boy has this caused a lot of debate. I'm not a user and don't want my son to be but pot is so benign I say let's leave it alone and go after HARMFUL drugs which is just about everything else. Or else put alcohol in the same category. Illegal pot is working about as well as prohibition and makes people liable to criminal proceedings when we should be out trying to stop the REAL criminals.

[j40405]

The best part of legalization would be the savings of tax dollars. The U.S. spends billions every year trying to fight drug use and to no avail. Legalization (of marijuana only) could refocous law enforcement, tax dollars and goverment officials on more significant crime along with other problems. It would also free up prison space for real crimminals. I am not saying that drug or alcohol use is really good for anyone but keeping people in jail for years over posession of some pot seems ridiculous not to mention expensive. Our nation cannot continue on our current path since we are already running out of money. Time for a new path.

[Void_Master]

From the story: "In the United States, meanwhile, more than 40 percent of people 18 and older have used marijuana or hashish. America boasts one of the highest pot usage rates in the world."

They should have counted those under 18. The percentage would be closer to 75% to 80%. It's only a matter of time, now. I believe it will be *effectively* legal by the end of Obama's first term and completely legalized within a decade.

[scottportraits2]

I only hope you're right....

[thusspokezara]

One big difference between pot and alcohol. Alcohol short half life (i.e rapidly metabolized). Cannabis long half life (i.e stays in your system). You go out and drink (moderately) at night and it is out of your system by the next morning. You go out and smoke pot at night, and it is still in your system the next week.

[Lawyers-Guns-n-Money]

You go out and smoke pot at night, and it is still in your system the next week.
---------------

Yeah, so's a cheeseburger. What's your point?

[thusspokezara]

Another plot by the pharmaceutical industry to increase the sale of anti-psychotics. More pot. More psychosis. More psychosis. More anti-psychotic use. More anti-psychotic use. More profits for the companies.

[bajajohn1]

There is no medical study of any type stating that marijuana use creates pyschosis. If anything, marijuana soothes folks so that they can relax, listen to music or actually use their ears during a coversation. You know, where folks actually talk and the other people listen.

[AttentionDeficit]

toldyouso: if you want to get pot users to sign away their rights to health care because of their bad habits, i suggest it would be equally good to do the same with drinkers, smokers, the obese, etc. if you made yourself fat, then you should be denied medical care, no?

[BruceHulvey]

"Sorry Brucie--it is ALL our places and you actually do NOT get to do whatever you want. When your rights begin to impugn or threaten other's rights you will find your own rights curtailed or restricted--which is why you will get in trouble if you drink and drive--and why you have to wear a seatbelt whether you want to or not or will get fined for that. We have rules to prevent those who either do not care or consider the effect of their actions on others--from endangering others due to their inconsideration."

You have taken my idea out of context here.

I believe that pot is illegal because it directly flies in the face of those in power. Like a Muslim woman wearing make-up or showing a bit too much calf. Get it. It's called civil disobedience.

Of course if you're from the "any use is abuse" camp, then there really is no argument here. You have clearly shown that a person can train themselves to ignore a basic human need. Congratulations.

"When the government thinks it may be even more detrimental (social problems, robbery, broken homes, etc) they don't fine or simply ticket or take away licenses--they jail--that is because for some--simply telling them that their actions may endanger another person...only elicits the same kinds of remark like you made--which shows a complete disregard of anyone or anything except yourself and since such a self centered person cannot self regulate--the gov has to do it for you."

And you assume a lot about me based on a few sentences.

None of the reasons you listed are the reason pot is illegal today. Pot's legal status has absolutely nothing to do with it being a detriment to society. I can see where your argument would work for murder or rape- but pot? Come one.

I can sum up what you're, in a round about kinda' way, saying. Why doesn't everyone just quit? That is your VERY SIMPLE answer and it would work if we didn't possess a little thing called free will. And people who suffer the personality disorder, control freakism, hate this.

No one is quitting, no one is going to stop because you say it will make us a better nation. People are tired of that lie.

[toldyouso29]

I HAVE OFTEN WONDERED about the curious habit of bloggers in America--to place so much stock on quoting other people. It is almost as if many people give more credibility and validate what others have said before them and negate their own capacity for having an opinion.

It has become the habit of many (and you know who you are) to quote someone famous and long dead or famous and alive as if for some reason--"if a famous person said it, it must be:

right

more relevant

more interesting

more intelligent

Did or did each and every human slide out of someone's vag1na just like you did? Then why in the world would anyone quote others to validate or underline or make a point? Your own words or opinions are worthless?

I seldom quote people--not because I don't like some of the stuff they said--but in reading the words of others, I place no more stock in their opinion than I do in my own and what they have done to become famous or what they haven't done has no bearing in trying to make a point by using their words as some sort of validation.

Another sign of a sort of weakness--perceiving the worth or value of someone else's opinions to be superior (and therefore more worth quoting) than your own. Just what is up with that? :)

[onesword]

We're individuals that can use our mind, body and soul as we see fit. Whether it's a mutual understanding of others or not. This part of ourselves no one or nothing can change unless we want it to change.

[bajajohn1]

It is called the Lemming Effect. Monkey see, Monkey do...well, you get the drift.