Mich.: Witnesses May Have To Remove Veil

In Wake Of Muslim Woman's Lawsuit, State Gives Judges Discretion In Requiring Testifiers To Show Their Faces

(CBS/AP)  The Michigan Supreme Court voted Wednesday voted to give judges authority over how witnesses dress in court after a Muslim woman refused to remove her veil while testifying in a small claims case.

A statewide court rule letting judges regulate the appearance of witnesses, such as asking them to remove face coverings, was approved by a 5-2 vote. The dissenters said there should be an exception for people whose clothing is dictated by their religion.

Justices heard last month from a Muslim woman who sued because her small claims case was dismissed when she refused to remove her veil.

Hamtramck District Judge Paul Paruk told Ginnnah Muhammad he needed to see her face to judge her truthfulness. The 45-year-old from Detroit kept her niqab on during the 2006 hearing.

"If state courts can require people to remove their veils to get their driver's license photos, they can require people to testify without a veil absent some extraordinary circumstance," said CBS News legal analyst Andrew Cohen.

"The reason we don't see many of these stories is that it's absolutely fundamental in a trial for the judge and jurors and defendants to see the facial expressions of a witness who is testifying, unless that witness is in mortal danger of being identified," said Cohen, so I think this challenge will fail."

Some Muslim leaders interpret the Quran to require that a woman wear a headscarf, veil or burqa in the presence of a man who is not her husband or close relative.

After Muhammad sued the judge, the Michigan Judges Association and Michigan District Judges Association pressed a court rule that gave judges "reasonable" control over the appearance of parties and witnesses to observe their demeanor and ensure they can be accurately identified.

"No First Amendment right is absolute," said Cohen, "and this one bends to other amendments which protect a defendant's right to a fair trial, which includes allowing the judge and jury to measure the facial expressions of witnesses. So this ruling is NOT a surprise, nor particularly controversial."

The two justices who voted against the rule Wednesday said they favored a religious exception endorsed by the American Civil Liberties Union of Michigan and religious groups.

Muhammad originally went to court to contest a $3,000 charge from a rental-car company to repair a vehicle that she said thieves had broken into.

The Detroit area is home to one of the country's largest Muslim populations. Legal observers have said the veil flap is a cutting-edge issue that will arise elsewhere in the United States.

[sbelknap01]

Why is this so hard? We know the witness is who she says she is by any number of methods, fingerprints comes to mind...this was a minor small claims court case in which the woman should have been allowed to 'testify' in writing, with a notarized statement - just as a non-muslim but ill, elderly, or other shut-in would be. The judge is a bigot, declaring that he can 'tell' if a person is lying only by 'looking at her face' - what nonsense. He can look at my face all day and never know if I'm lying or not, guaranteed. He is supposed to pass judgment based on evidence and we all think he's cool for declaring that he's somehow a psychic face-reader? I've got a neighbor lady that wears enough makeup to scare small children, does she have to scrub it off before she appears in his court? So the lady's got a weird take on religion, who cares? We let the Amish run around loose, horses and all - no photo driver's licenses, they don't pay social security taxes, they're a minority, but we all think they're just quaint and cute. Oh wait, they're white.

[CMancos]

Did you ever think what it would be like if we were over-run and taken over by these people. American women would be forced to wear the Ninja tent. I live near Dearborn, Michigan. Most of them do not wear this garb, they just have pretty different colored head scarfs. They appear to be the ones that just want a nice normal life here in the US. The ones wearing the Ninja tent scare everybody because we just know your old man is in the Taliban. That is a dead give away pal, if you have a family of these around, best watch out. If you have to go to those lengths with your women, something is radically wrong. If it is so much about morality then why do the women get killed when caught in adultry but the men skate? Why is that? The United States will most likely boil over soon because we have allowed anybody and everybody to live here and now, they want us to live by their laws instead of our own.

[armyoftwelve]

by gold_standard June 17, 2009 9:55 AM PDT
The right to face your accusers apparently means just that--you get to see their faces and know who they are.

Exactly! This lawsuit was always B.S. anyway. Take a quick survey and you will find that most muslim women actually DON'T cover their faces. This woman's belief is completely subjective and unnecessary.

[Slrman]

This will eventually be decided like every other great issue in history - by violence. IN this case a war between the muslims and everyone else. It will end with one side or the other being all dead. Come to think of it, that's the objective of the islamic beliefs anyway. Convert or die.

[SusanStoHelit]

Oh yeah - that's what they used to say about the conflict between the British and the French - went on for hundreds of years. Nope - we can all coexist. Not that long ago, that was what everyone thought had to happen between us and the commies. Turns out, whaddya know, we can coexist with them - and now people like you have found a new enemy to demonize and they're our allies.

[saresse34]

I think this Lawyer forgot this is the United States of America, Not the middle east, we have laws thay are our laws and if you cannot abide by them leave plain and simple. Religion should play no part in our system
its not our fault these women have no rights in there religion. I am sick and tired of people trying to change our way of life. Go back to were you came from and leave us alone. For the ACLU shame on you, your so busy protecting everyone else's rights you forgot about the Americans rights.
I say all Muslims if you don't like it here BYE BYE this is not your Country to Change...

[saresse34]

I think this Lawyer forgot this is the United States of America, Not the middle east, we have laws thay are our laws and if you cannot abide by them leave plain and simple. Religion should play no part in our system
its not our fault these women have no rights in there religion. I am sick and tired of people trying to change our way of life. Go back to were you came from and leave us alone. For the ACLU shame on you, your so busy protecting everyone else's rights you forgot about the Americans rights.
I say all Muslims if you don't like it here BYE BYE this is not your Country to Change...

[credibility2]

The Koran doesn't even state that women must cover themselves up in this way as part of their religious beliefs. If these people want to live here, then they need to abide by our laws and that means not concealing yourself behind a veil. And they most definitely don't need to get permission from a male or to have a male present with them to go about their business in this country. We're not here to pander to them and diminish and wash down our laws and requirements just so as not to offend them. What some Muslims are trying to do, using the excuse of their religion, is an offense to us. They live here now, not in some backwards country. Even the American Muslim group doesn't agree with some of the backward attempts by some to change our laws and requirements just to fit their own limited and backwards view.

[Thalia-9]

by TNisgoodenoughforme June 17, 2009 1:30 PM PDT
Couldn't they have gone behind closed doors with the judge, attorneys & with her & husband or closest adult male family member? That would be meeting them more than 1/2 way without her taking it off in public. If her husband or male relation gives permission doesn't it make it ok?


LOLOLOLOLOL!!! You can not be serious?? "If her husband or male relations "says" it's OK??' Yeah...cause judges just love being told what to do and what is 'acceptable' by a defendent's family in their court room or chambers! Not so much - I'm with the majority of the panel in that she is in the US and can abide by US law - like everyone should have to - whoever said ACLU is a huge enemy of this country is right - They used to stand for something productive, now they use their power to line their pocketbooks anytime someone cries wolf.

[cdegolier]

Simple if you don't like the laws of this country go back to your own. I'm sure you can leave your veil on there in small claims court, oh wait your a woman, you probably can't sue anyone.

[Thalia-9]

by mswolfestock June 17, 2009 1:17 PM PDT
Shhh - be quiet for a minute . . . . .. There! There it is!! That sound - it's the sound of our Founding Fathers rolling in their graves.

They're rolling in their graves because in Michigan there is no separation of church and state any more, and I don't mean the Christian church, either.

I guess if we wait another couple of months everybody will be wearing burquas up there. And they'll have to pray a million times a day, and you won't be able to eat pork, and you won't be able to drink alcohol, etc, etc.

WAKE UP, AMERICAN PATRIOTS IN MICHIGAN!!!! THE REST OF THE COUNTRY IS WATCHING AND WE ARE MAD AS *H*E*L*L* ABOUT THIS. GET UP OFF YOUR BACKSIDES AND TAKE BACK YOUR STATE FOR THE GOOD OF THE REST OF THE COUNTRY.

LOLOL!!! really? from the looks of posts from around "The country', it seems like you're the only one mad as h*e*l*l at Michigan. If you belonged to some freak religion that required you to wear a thong in public, I'd love to see how that would play out in Islamic court! LOL

[TheMasses0003]

the court ruled that the judge can tell someone to remove their veil or not testify.

Why is it only one side cannot read?
---------------------
You sound like a bitter, jihadist, Islamic terrorist yourself.
Why defend the guilty - unless you are with them?

[SusanStoHelit]

Those who think everyone of one religion is guilty - yep, that is exactly who I am NOT with. There are Christian terrorists too - in America and in other countries - should we call Christians all guilty terrorists too?

You still don't explain why one side only cannot read that this woman lost both of her court cases.

[SusanStoHelit]

So - why is it all the illiterates who cannot read the story, and pretend the Muslim woman won her case, rather than lost it - all seem to be from the same side of the aisle, and have the same talking points?

Eeek! Scary Muslims! They're going to take us over and force us to wear silly clothes!

Even had she won (and she didn't) - that'd be a silly and stupid overreaction to the idea that someone who has a religious belief can have only their eyes showing in court. But she lost - the court ruled that the judge can tell someone to remove their veil or not testify.

Why is it only one side cannot read?

[budfrank1]

They DO want to take us over and they won't want me to wear silly clothes (I'm a man). They'll want YOU to wear silly clothes and may lash you if you don't.

[TheMasses0003]

In the pic, she kinda looks like the Ghost Of Muslum Present ...............

[TheMasses0003]

Turtle in a half shell - TURTLE POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TheMasses0003]

Do Muslum women have to reamin veiled when procreating?
That may have saved my marriage .....................

[TheMasses0003]

Do Muslum women have to reamin veiled when procreating?
That may have saved my marriage .....................

[TheMasses0003]

gravyboat3000 June 17, 2009 2:36 PM PDT
by TheMasses0003 June 17, 2009 2:31 PM PDT
She needs to be unveiled as she may be a robot or something.
____

That's just silly, she went through the metal detector...
---------------------------
Oh yeah!

Hahahahahaha!

Gravy is funny ........................

[burneb]

The judges make a critically valid point about watching people while they testify, as well as proper identification. There are some practical limits to exercise of religious beliefs, especially the more outlandish ones, when they conflict with functioning in our society.

If women are supposed to be actual human beings, competent to testify in court, they should be competent to show their faces. It's hardly the same thing as showing other body parts. Do Muslims think the judge and jury members are going to think obscene thoughts and cream their jeans if a woman shows her face? No one claims that MEN need to hide their faces.

Ultimately, if anyone feels that strongly about hiding their face in court for "religious reasons", they are not competent to live in the US. We give lip service to everyone being entitled to their opinions, but some opinions are so stupid they do not deserve respect or accomodation at the inconvenience or distruption of others.

[SusanStoHelit]

It's not my religion - but in theirs - it's a matter of decency. It's no different than how a man can show his chest, but I cannot show mine. How you can show your leg, but not your genitals. There are other cultures where our decency rules seem absurd to them.

[gravyboat3000]

by TheMasses0003 June 17, 2009 2:31 PM PDT
She needs to be unveiled as she may be a robot or something.
____

That's just silly, she went through the metal detector...

[gravyboat3000]

by TheMasses0003 June 17, 2009 2:30 PM PDT
The veiled person in the pic above looks like a ninja.
And should be waterboarded accordingly.
Is the Islamic Revolution coming to America too?
And what happened to the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles?
Turtle-Power anyone?

I miss Leonardo, and his jokes. Wait, or was that Mikey?