Crash Prompts Call For Black Box Reforms

After Air France Ocean Crash, Call Grows For Flight Recorders That Can Transmit Data

(CBS)  Investigators may never know for sure what happened to Air France Flight 447 unless they can find the flight recorders -- the so-called black boxes.

To say that will be difficult is an understatement. They could be at the bottom of the ocean -- two miles down.

As CBS News correspondent Nancy Cordes reports, experts think there's a better way to get valuable data.

---

When airliners go down, their black boxes nearly always provide the critical clues to what went wrong.

If a black box is damaged or can't be retrieved, those secrets go down with it.

In this age of satellite technology, some experts question why airplanes can't beam cockpit conversations and flight data directly to a storage facility via satellite. Thus creating a real time record of the plane's operations.

"I think it is time that we look for some alternatives," says Pete Goelz, former managing director of the National Transportation Safety Board.

"People raise the issue of cost. But think of the tens of millions of dollars that are being spent right now mounting this search today in the South Pacific," said Goelz.

It's a search that may prove fruitless. Investigators never found the black boxes from the planes that crashed into the world trade center on 9/11.

Still, downloading data from the thousands of airplanes that are aloft at any one time would be an enormous undertaking.

"We currently don't have the technological wherewithal for an aircraft to transmit that much data continuously," says Dan Elwell, vice-president of the Aerospace Industries Association.

And there's another problem. Pilots unions have long objected to more monitoring of flight crews. As they did when Colgan Air proposed randomly sampling cockpit recordings from flights to check for excessive chit chat after the February crash in Buffalo, N.Y., which killed 50.

"They believe they deserve and need some degree of privacy,'' said Goelz.

The question is, could a system be designed that wouldn't break the bank and would ensure that the data would only be examined if there was an emergency in flight? Or it may be that current black boxes need to be beefed up, made floatable or have their signal beacons last longer.

[sylevine1]

On June 4, 2009 the Los Angeles Times took a section of a letter that I sent to them and put this in their LETTERS section:

?There is no technical reason why digital flight recorder data are not sent in real-time to the ground. We have the technology to do this. Then, within a couple of seconds, we would have a plane?s position, altitude and velocity safely stored on the ground. This information could be used for flight safety, aviation security and cost reduction. We don?t know what went wrong on Flight 447, but we would sure know where the plane went down, why it went down and possibly could have saved lives.? Getting to the crash site early may save lives, getting the DFDR can prevent recurring fatal crashes. It?s not just position that?s needed it?s all of the data sent to the recorder that is critical to ascertaining the root cause of a crash and should be available to prevent some of the crashes from occurring.
Billions of dollars are wasted each year on unnecessary airport runway expansion programs to reduce fatal ground incursions. These incursions wouldn?t occur if the flight data was shared so pilots and air traffic control had better visibility. But because the digital data isn?t shared automatically the pilot sees only a fraction of the information necessary to prevent a crash and the same hold for the air traffic controllers. Crashes such as Tenerife, Comair, etc. are directly caused by the lack of visibility due to not sharing the DFDR data in real-time. Thus, the real-time use of the DFDR data to prevent crashes is more important then its present autopsy mode of operation.

The real-time use of the data recorders will save a substantial amount of lives, make our country safer and reduce the cost of flying. Telemetering the flight data to the ground in real-time would assure that we have the data - in many crashes the flight data isn't recovered (e.g. 9/11, et al) or has errors in it since no one is looking at it, or using it in real-time to find malfunctions. Yet, this valuable digital flight recorder data (DFDR) data has been left to the autopsy mode for post mortem simulations and not utilized proactively in real-time to save lives.

This, Air France flight 447, is another example of horrific crashes that possibly could have been prevented and saved lives. We surely would be able to use the flight data to prevent recurring crashes of this type and to minimize the anguish of the passengers families and the cost and time of trying to recover the recorders. The aviation industry has always attempted to minimize their liability. They fought against flight recorders and lost. Now they are fighting to keep the information going to the flight recorders industry private even if that jeopardized national security and been responsible for countless aviation fatalities. Their lobby is so strong that they have put a Titanic (Warsaw) clause into all fights over international waters. This Titanic clause limits a family member of a passenger that is killed in a flight to a small fraction of the persons earning capacity even if the industry is found at fault. This has been printed in fine print on the back of every ticket. They were not successful in getting this egregious law over land since people were watching and protested. Thus, by their own action they don?t care first for the passengers and second for their industry. The only way to change this and to make passenger safety and national security come first is if the public demands that the flight recorder data be available in real-time to be used to prevent crashes from initially occurring (real-time use of the recorder data) as well as recurring crashes (autopsy mode post flight recorder analysis) and that the flight data isn?t the private property of the airline industry to suppress out of fear of litigation.

Sy Levine

[e-mail]
[e-mail]

http://www.safelander.com

Remote Aircraft Flight Recorder and Advisory System (RAFT) patent #5,890,079, 3/30/1999

[sylevine1]

For the last ten years there hasn?t been a technical reason why the digital flight recorder data isn't sent in real-time to the ground (see the BBC/Equinox video ?The BOX?, 2000, on the flight recorders). Then with-in a couple of seconds you have the planes position/location, its attitude, velocity, etc. safely stored on the ground and used for flight safety, aviation security and cost reduction. This data used in real-time could have also prevented 9/11 (see http:safelander.com). We presently have the viable technology to securely do this. This information could be used for flight safety, aviation & national security and cost reduction to the flying public. We presently don?t know what went wrong on Flight 447, but we would surely know where the plane went down, when it went down, why it went down and possibly could have saved lives.

The real-time use of the data recorders will save a substantial amount of lives, make our country safer and reduce the cost of flying. Telemetering the flight data to the ground in real-time would assure that we have the data - in many crashes the flight data isn't recovered (e.g. 9/11, et al) or has errors in it since no one is looking at it, or using it in real-time to find malfunctions. Yet, this valuable digital flight recorder data (DFDR) data has been left to the autopsy mode for post mortem simulations and not utilized proactively in real-time to save lives. We got our astronauts back from the moon by ground personnel monitoring the data in real-time. It was the ground personnel that found the problem and relayed back to the capsule the safe solution that saved the astronauts lives. Yet, the real-time data has been intentionally withheld and stored on operational planes for fear of aviation industry litigation.

A year prior to 9/11 I spoke in NY at the International Aviation Safety Association meeting on preventing crashes like golfer Payne Stewart?s decompression crash. Nothing was done by the FAA or industry and we got 9/11 (hijacking is about ten percent of aviation fatalities) and the 2005, 100 fatality, Helios decompression crash. When a plane deviates from its approved flight plan we now have the ability to securely take remote control of it and land it safely at a designated airfield. We presently have remote pilot vehicles flying now utilizing secure high bandwidth communication networks (we use them for our submarines, AWACS planes, etc.) and there isn't a logical reason for not making that technology available for cargo and carrier aircraft. The cost of 9/11 alone is ten times the cost of putting in a safe system and yet nothing has intentionally been done. We would also be accruing additional annual safety and cost benefits.

When a plane decompresses there is a good possibility if we remotely bring it down in altitude to a point where there is sufficient oxygen and fly it remotely for 15 minutes the pilot and passengers may regain consciousness. At that time the control of the aircraft could be returned to the pilot if they are capable of flying the aircraft or remotely landing it to save the lives of the people who are onboard.

[OregonJames]

My cheap GPS unit tells me my location, elevation, speed, and direction, and it is likely that several people on the aircraft had access to GPS information, so can anyone explain to me why any airplane used for public transportation doesn't also have a GPS unit to aid in navigation today? Why isn't every airliner equipped with modern CHEAP navigation tools like this?

Also, with today's technology, is there any reason to believe that a modern black box could not be tracked as easily as we track birds, whales, and other species as they travel around the world?

Billions of dollars are wasted on useless and stupid airport security measures that increase our frustrations and cost of travel and make us no safer, yet we are forced to fly in airplanes without the technology you can find in most telephones and automobiles. That is just stupid beyond belief...

[paddyhayes]

sylevine1 --

I think you are absolutely right.

But real-time data transmission would make it hard for pilots who've had a few too many before lift-off to get away with FUI ...

[sylevine1]

For the last ten years there has not been a technical reason why the digital flight recorder data isn't sent in real-time to the ground. Then with-in a couple of seconds you have the planes position/location, its attitude, velocity, etc. safely stored on the ground and used for flight safety, aviation security and cost reduction. This data used in real-time could have also prevented 9/11 (see http:safelander.com). We presently have the viable technology to securely do this. This information could be used for flight safety, aviation & national security and cost reduction to the flying public. We presently do not know what went wrong on Flight 447, but we would surely know where the plane went down, when it went down, why it went down and possibly could have saved lives.

Modern satelite communication systems that are used by the military have over ten times the bandwidth to provide for all carrier and cargo aircraft to have their digital flight data recorder (DFDR) transmitted to the ground for data storage in real-time. All of the daily data for all daily DFDR will fit on a single PC disc. Thus, there is no excuse for not doing this except for the industries fear of litigation and its contiunous fight to keep the data private.

The real-time use of the data recorders will save a substantial amount of lives, make our country safer and reduce the cost of flying. Telemetering the flight data to the ground in real-time would assure that we have the data - in many crashes the flight data isn't recovered (e.g. 9/11, et al) or has errors in it since no one is looking at it, or using it in real-time to find malfunctions. Yet, this valuable digital flight recorder data (DFDR) data has been left to the autopsy mode for post mortem simulations and not utilized proactively in real-time to save lives. We got our astronauts back from the moon by ground personnel monitoring the data in real-time. It was the ground personnel that found the problem and relayed back to the capsule the safe solution that saved the astronauts lives. Yet, the real-time data has been intentionally withheld and stored on operational planes for fear of aviation industry litigation.

A year prior to 9/11 I spoke in NY at the International Aviation Safety Association meeting on preventing crashes like golfer Payne Stewarts decompression crash. Nothing was done by the FAA or industry and we got 9/11 (hijacking is about ten percent of aviation fatalities) and the 2005, 100 fatality, Helios decompression crash. When a plane deviates from its approved flight plan we now have the ability to securely take remote control of it and land it safely at a designated airfield. We presently have remote pilot vehicles flying now utilizing secure high bandwidth communication networks (we use them for our submarines, AWACS planes, etc.) and there isn't a logical reason for not making that technology available for cargo and carrier aircraft. The cost of 9/11 alone is ten times the cost of putting in a safe system and yet nothing has intentionally been done. We would also be accruing additional annual safety and cost benefits.

On July 4, 2009 the Los Angeles Times took a section of a letter that I sent to them and put this in their LETTERS section:

There is no technical reason why digital flight recorder data are not sent in real-time to the ground. We have the technology to do this. Then, within a couple of seconds, we would have a plane?s position, altitude and velocity safely stored on the ground. This information could be used for flight safety, aviation security and cost reduction. We don?t know what went wrong on Flight 447, but we would sure know where the plane went down, why it went down and possibly could have saved lives.

Getting to the crash site early may save lives, getting the DFDR can prevent recurring fatal crashes. It?s not just position that?s needed it?s all of the data sent to the recorder that is critical to ascertaining the root cause of a crash and should be available to prevent some of the crashes from occurring.

This, Air France flight 447, is another example of horrific crashes that possibly could have been prevented and save lives. We surely would be able to use the flight data to prevent recurring crashes of this type and to minimize the anguish of the passengers families and the cost and time of trying to recover the recorders. The only way to change this is if the public demands that the flight recorder data be available in real-time and that that the flight data is not the private property of the airline industry and pilot associations to suppress out of fear of litigation. For the security of our nation and the safety of its citizens the data is public property to be used freely.

Sy Levine

[e-mail]
[e-mail]

http://www.safelander.com

[sylevine1]

ACARS is an obsolete system that doesn't have much bandwidth. We presently have remote piloted vehicles flying that use secure networks. These secure networks are used by our submarines, AWACS, etc. have never been compromised. A new modern com system can easily handel all of the flight data from all of the DFDRs and have the data stored safely on the ground. The daily memory requirement for a all of these aircraft will fit on a single PC disc.

A system like this has been technically available for over ten years. The problem is the industry out of fear of liability has been unwilling to allow the data to flow freely and be available in real time crash prevention. They have accepted the autopsy mode of operation but has resisted using the data in real-time. We got our astronauts back from the moon by people on the ground monitoring their capsule, finding a life threatening problem and telemetering the safe solution. Yet this isn't available to cargo and carrier aircraft. Ten years ago the BBC ran a 90 minute show called "The Box" and they proved that a remote flight recorder was viable and yet we still haven't done it simply because of the fear of litigation

[sylevine1]

For the last ten years there hasn?t been a technical reason why the digital flight recorder data isn't sent in real-time to the ground. Then with-in a couple of seconds you have the planes position/location, its attitude, velocity, etc. safely stored on the ground and used for flight safety, aviation security and cost reduction. This data used in real-time could have also prevented 9/11 (see http:safelander.com). We presently have the viable technology to securely do this. This information could be used for flight safety, aviation & national security and cost reduction to the flying public. We presently don?t know what went wrong on Flight 447, but we would surely know where the plane went down, when it went down, why it went down and possibly could have saved lives.

Modern satelite communication systems that are used by the military have over ten times the bandwidth to provide for all carrier and cargo aircraft to have their digital flight data recorder (DFDR) transmitted to the ground for data storage. All of the daily data for all daily DFDR will fit on a single PC disc. Thus, there is no excuse for not doing this except for the industries fear of litigation by this data openly and in real-time.
single PC disc.

The real-time use of the data recorders will save a substantial amount of lives, make our country safer and reduce the cost of flying. Telemetering the flight data to the ground in real-time would assure that we have the data - in many crashes the flight data isn't recovered (e.g. 9/11, et al) or has errors in it since no one is looking at it, or using it in real-time to find malfunctions. Yet, this valuable digital flight recorder data (DFDR) data has been left to the autopsy mode for post mortem simulations and not utilized proactively in real-time to save lives. We got our astronauts back from the moon by ground personnel monitoring the data in real-time. It was the ground personnel that found the problem and relayed back to the capsule the safe solution that saved the astronauts lives. Yet, the real-time data has been intentionally withheld and stored on operational planes for fear of aviation industry litigation.

A year prior to 9/11 I spoke in NY at the International Aviation Safety Association meeting on preventing crashes like golfer Payne Stewarts decompression crash. Nothing was done by the FAA or industry and we got 9/11 (hijacking is about ten percent of aviation fatalities) and the 2005, 100 fatality, Helios decompression crash. When a plane deviates from its approved flight plan we now have the ability to securely take remote control of it and land it safely at a designated airfield. We presently have remote pilot vehicles flying now utilizing secure high bandwidth communication networks (we use them for our submarines, AWACS planes, etc.) and there isn't a logical reason for not making that technology available for cargo and carrier aircraft. The cost of 9/11 alone is ten times the cost of putting in a safe system and yet nothing has intentionally been done. We would also be accruing additional annual safety and cost benefits.

On July 4, 2009 the Los Angeles Times took a section of a letter that I sent to them and put this in their LETTERS section:
?There is no technical reason why digital flight recorder data are not sent in real-time to the ground. We have the technology to do this. Then, within a couple of seconds, we would have a plane?s position, altitude and velocity safely stored on the ground. This information could be used for flight safety, aviation security and cost reduction. We don?t know what went wrong on Flight 447, but we would sure know where the plane went down, why it went down and possibly could have saved lives.?

Getting to the crash site early may save lives, getting the DFDR can prevent recurring fatal crashes. It?s not just position that?s needed it?s all of the data sent to the recorder that is critical to ascertaining the root cause of a crash and should be available to prevent some of the crashes from occurring.

This, Air France flight 447, is another example of horrific crashes that possibly could have been prevented and save lives. We surely would be able to use the flight data to prevent recurring crashes of this type and to minimize the anguish of the passengers families and the cost and time of trying to recover the recorders. The only way to change this is if the public demands that the flight recorder data be available in real-time and that that the flight data isn?t the private property of the airline industry to suppress out of fear of litigation.
Sy Levine

[e-mail]
[e-mail]

http://www.safelander.com

Remote Aircraft Flight Recorder and Advisory System (RAFT) patent #5,890,079, 3/30/1999

[craigbennie]

Both pilots of the Air Comet flight from Lima to Lisbon sent a written report to aviation authorities, i.e, Air France, Airbus, describing what they saw. They reported that "Suddenly, we saw a bright flash....an intense flash of white light, ....in a descending and vertical trajectory....." in the area of Flight 447.

Recalling the January 7, 1948 incident of Kentucky Air National Guard Captain Thomas Mantell, Jr., who was ordered to intercept a UFO sited over Mansville, Kentucky, one notices a strange similarity in eyewitness testimony. Witness farmer Glen Mays of Franklin, KY. He said he saw Mantell's plane "enveloped by a brilliant white flash of light...so bright....it was like looking at the sun". Captain Mantell's aircraft then "appeared to fall out of this light and pancake into the ground" Mays said.

There's a commonality between the Air France Flight 447 tragedy and Captain Mantell's crash---- reports of a mysterious intense flash of white light preceding the doomed aircraft. Just coincidence?... or something more frightening?

[wogerwabbit]

Posted by Scooter68 at 8:31 PM : Jun 6, 2009
Scooter68 at 8:27 PM : Jun 6, 2009

Nonetheless bucko,I know what I'm talking about... take off your tin foil hat and get a clue. On any other day for the past 40 or 50 years, there would have been fighters scrambled to intercept those hijacked jets... what happened on 9/11? As to your other point, there were rivers molten metal for MONTHS under the WTC buildings and Buiding 7... jet fuel won't do that, but thermite will. How do you explain that? And in keeping with your theory, why should #7 have a river of molten metal in the basement if there was no jet fuel there?

[whitemale08]

Scooter68-
Quit being so naive, every one of my conspiracy theories have come true, unlike the mainstream media, who gets it wrong every single time.

Here's Condeeliza Con on 9/11: 'Who could've ever known"
Here's Alex Jones before 9/11: 'They're going to attack the world's trade center and blame it on Al-Queda.

Here's Hank Paulson on the Financial Crisis: "The fundamentals of our economy are sound".
Here's Lyndon Larouche before the Financial Crisis: "...the Treasury Secretary is going to get very scared and panic, and soon after the Bush Administration will admit to the world that we are in a crisis."

So I suggest you quit believing and trusting in what the media tells you, your government or anybody else who's in a position of authority.

I know how the system works, I know who runs it and what their agenda is, you my friend choose not to know so you can sit on the couch and suck and your thumb.

It's so predictable on what these financial oligarchs are up to, that my 'conspiracy theories' are becoming more accurate by the day'.

So long SUCKER!

[wogerwabbit]

It's a search that may prove fruitless. Investigators never found the black boxes from the planes that crashed into the world trade center on 9/11.

BS... they never looked for them because they would show the truth. As an ex-New York air traffic controller, I find the whole 9/11flight scenarios totally unbelievable. Standard Operating Procedures were NOT followed... not even close... why? And the one thing that really get's me, is how did they know so soon these 19 guys hijacked the planes when none of them, NOT ONE, showed up on the published passenger lists?

[Timnsteph]

What about an EPIRB device with the "Black Box"? Federal regulations require ocean vessels to have them. Finding the "Black Box" would be simple, relatively easily to locate, and a cheap alternative. As far as real-time information with satellites in bad weather conditions, hahahahahahaha.....keep dreaming.

[thgdriver]

"People raise the issue of cost. But think of the tens of millions of dollars that are being spent right now mounting this search today in the South Pacific," said Goelz.

It would seem they are looking in the wrong ocean. LOL!!

[whitemale08]

Folks, this is a cover-up story.

China and Brazil have been trading recently without use of now worthless Federal Reserve Notes, to see if it's possible to completely dump the dollar.

Bloomberg is reporting today that a 'new reserve currency is possible but won't be quick'.

If that were to happen, then literaly in 24 to 48 hrs, the world's economy would grind to a halt, causing massive chaos beyond belief.

My theory is that a story like this could be used to reverse that trend to trade without the dollar by blaming Brazil for harboring terrorists.

Everytime the media uses the word 'reform', it's a cover-up.

Only 3 planes in aviation history have missing black boxes, the 2 on 9/11 and this Air France incident.

[hungry1968-15]

They mentioned on tv 2 days ago, that almost every plane flying today DOES NOT have GPS on it.

Wouldn't that be a logical place to start? I mean really, my CELL PHONE has GPS on it, but the plane carrying several hundred people, thousands of miles, at 600+ MPH, 7 miles in the air, DOESN'T?

Seriously?

[moosbrth]

No blacks boxes were ever found in the 911 incident and only Mohammad Atta's passport completely intact was found, fancy that. Something rotten in Denmark ever since 911.

[rwsmith29456]

I would think that a black box wouldn't have to transmit continuously, but that an alarm would send a wake up call to a satellite or ground station that would begin recording.

[lsk2141]

The difficulty to locate the black box of flight 477 and many other planes that has gone down to the deep sea has call for changes in the flight recorder and its location reporting feature. The Passenger aircraft manufactures should design a flight recoder that is capable of sending very strong signal when it is in deep sea to the satelite above it for easy location of the plane that has gone down via GPS facilities. This could help the aviation authorities to locate the unsuccesful flight. This feature also helps to locate the plane if it crash in deep forested mountain where search and rescue operation is needed to be done at the shortest possible time.

[ToolMangler1]

Hindsight is 'so' 20,20. 'Doh'

[Yes_ABWH_Fan]

They need real-time critical-data sent (rescue time might be of the essence), PLUS they need two physical black boxes - one that sinks and one that floats, to capture "after failure" data. The one that sinks "stays with the plane", or what's left of it, to help locate it. If a crash happens on land, then 2 in a crash doubles the odds of finding one in working order.