PARIS, June 3, 2009
More Air France Crash Debris Found
Search For Black Box A Major Challenge In Waters Four Miles Deep; Memorial Held At Notre Dame
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Play CBS Video Video Ships To Reach Air Crash Site With ocean depths close to two miles, recovery of the in-flight recorder is unlikely as ships are expected to reach the crash site of Air France flight 447 today, reports Mark Phillips.
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Video Air France Search Continues Search planes have been hampered by the same rough weather that may have crashed an Air France jet carrying 228. French planes joined the Brazilian Air Force to find survivors. Mark Phillips reports.
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The head of France's accident investigation agency, or BEA, Paul-Louis Arslanian, foreground, speaks as investigator in charge Alain Bouillard looks on, during a news conference at Le Bourget airport, north of Paris, Wednesday June 3, 2009. Arslanian said he was "not optimistic" that rescuers will recover Air France AF 447 plane's black boxes, believed to be on rugged terrain miles under the sea. (AP)
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In this photo released by Brazil's Defense Ministry, an aerial view of an oil slick on the sea near Brazil, Wednesday, June 3, 2009. (AP Photo/Brazil Defense Ministry)
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An Airbus A330 carrying 228 people crashed into the ocean en route from Rio de Janeiro to Paris.
Stories
- Air France Overhauls Air Speed Sensors
- Air France Crash Search Yields More Bodies
- IDs Of Victims Could Prove Jet Broke Up
- Sub Hunts For Flt. 447 Black Boxes
- Probers: Flight 447's Autopilot Was Off
- Crash Prompts Call For Black Box Reforms
- Beyond Radar's Edge, Planes On Their Own
- Families Pay Tribute To Air France Victims
- Victims' Nationalities
- Timeline
Videos
Photos
In Depth
Military planes located more debris from an Air France jet on Wednesday as the first navy ship arrived at the scene in the mid-Atlantic. But high seas and heavy winds slowed the recovery effort and delayed the arrival of crucial deep-water submersibles.
Search vessels from several nations pushed toward the floating debris, including a 23-foot chunk of plane and a 12-mile-long oil slick that Brazilian pilots spotted from the air. Rescuers have still found no signs of life from the plane that was carrying 228 people from Rio de Janeiro to Paris, Air Force spokesman Col. Jorge Amaral said.
A Brazilian navy spokeswoman said a patrol boat was close to one debris field after spending two days pushing through rough weather to reach the site, but had not yet retrieved any wreckage.
A Navy frigate was expected to arrive later in the day, said the spokeswoman, who spoke on condition of anonymity in keeping with policy.
Flight 447 disappeared minutes after flying into an extremely dangerous band of storms Sunday night, but what exactly caused its electrical systems and cabin pressure to fail remains a mystery.
The "black box" cockpit recorders could be miles below the surface of the Atlantic Ocean. If they can't be recovered, investigators will have to focus on maintenance records and a burst of messages sent by the plane just before it disappeared.
French and Brazilian officials had already announced some details of these messages, but a more complete chronology was published Wednesday by Brazil's O Estado de S. Paulo newspaper, citing an unidentified Air France source, and was confirmed to The Associated Press by an aviation industry official with knowledge of the investigation.
The burst of automatic messages sent from the jetliner before it disappeared with 228 people on board suggests it probably broke apart in the skies and fell to the ocean in pieces, said the official, who isn't authorized to discuss details of the probe publicly.
The pilot sent a manual signal at 11 p.m. local time saying he was flying through an area of "CBs" - black, electrically charged cumulonimbus clouds that come with violent winds and lightning.
Satellite data has shown that towering thunderheads were sending 100 mph updraft winds into the jet's flight path just then.
Ten minutes later, a cascade of problems began: Automatic messages indicate the autopilot had disengaged, a key computer system had switched to alternative power, and controls needed to keep the plane stable had been damaged. An alarm sounded indicating the deterioration of flight systems.
Three minutes after that, more automatic messages reported the failure of systems to monitor air speed, altitude and direction. Control of the main flight computer and wing spoilers failed as well.
The last automatic message, at 11:14 p.m., indicated loss of cabin pressure and complete electrical failure - catastrophic events in a plane that was likely already plunging toward the ocean.
"This clearly looks like the story of the airplane coming apart," the airline industry official told the AP. "We just don't know why it did, but that is what the investigation will show."
The disappearance of the Air France jet has shed light on a little-known fact about trans-Atlantic flights: once planes are about 150 miles off shore, they are beyond the reach of radar and the pilots are essentially on their own, reports CBS News correspondent Nancy Cordes.
"The technology is pretty much like World War II," Mary Schiavo, former inspector general for the U.S. Department of Transportation, told CBS' The Early Show.
Air France spokesman Nicolas Petteau referring questions about the report to the French accident investigation agency, BEA, whose spokesman Martine Del Bono said the agency won't comment.
Brazil's Defense Minister Nelson Jobim also declined to comment on the report, saying "that investigation is being done by France, Brazil's only responsibility is to find and pick up the pieces."
France's defense minister and the Pentagon have said there were no signs that terrorism was involved, and Jobim said "that possibility hasn't even been considered."
The fierce thunderstorms, turbulence, lightning or a catastrophic combination of events could have broken apart the plane, aviation experts have said. And while the messages reported by the newspaper don't indicate why the aircraft went down, they strongly suggest it broke apart in the air, said Bill Voss, president and CEO of the Flight Safety Foundation in Alexandria, Va.
"These are telling us the story of the crash. They are not explaining what happened to cause the crash," Voss said. "This is the documentation of the seconds when control was lost and the aircraft started to break up in air."
Voss stressed that the messages alone were not enough to understand why the Air France jet went down, noting that the black boxes will have "far more parameters" that could determine the cause.
There are other means of analyzing what happened. A former Air Force meteorologist familiar with the area, has plotted the Air France plane's flight path against satellite weather data at the time. He says the plane flew straight through some extremely violent storms and for a long time.
"They went through three main thunderstorm clusters. the worst was the last one, and that covered probably 70 miles along the flight track," Tim Vasquez of Weathergraphics told CBS News correspondent Phillips.
The new debris was discovered about 90 kilometers south of where searchers a day earlier found an airplane seat, a fuel slick, an orange buoy and pieces of white debris. The original debris was found roughly 400 miles northeast of the Fernando de Noronha islands off Brazil's northern coast, an area where the ocean floor drops as low as 22,950 feet below sea level.
Brazil was leading the search, while France took charge of the crash investigation, working with Air France, Airbus and meteorologists to determine what happened.
Brazilian divers were expected to arrive Thursday, but if the black boxes are at the bottom of the sea, their recovery will have to wait for the arrival early next week of a French research ship with remotely controlled submersibles that can explore as deeply as 19,600 feet.
The sturdy black boxes - voice and data recorders - are built to give off signals for at least 30 days, even underwater, and could keep their contents indefinitely.
But the head of France's accident investigation agency, Paul-Louis Arslanian, said in Paris that he is "not optimistic" about recovering the recorders - and that investigators should be prepared to continue the probe without them.
"It is not only deep, it is also mountainous," he said. "We might find ourselves blocked at some point by the lack of material elements."
A French AWACS radar plane and two other French military planes flew Wednesday over the area where debris was found to better narrow down the search zone. A U.S. Navy P-3C Orion surveillance plane - which can fly low over the ocean for 12 hours at a time - also joined the operation.
The French are sending a vessel called the Pourquoi Pas? - the Why Not - with two submersibles on board that can dive to depths where the data recorders are lying, Phillips reports.
The search for the black boxes cannot begin until the ships get to the scene. And rough weather - the same sort of weather suspected of contributing to the crash -- is slowing those ships down, Phillips reports.
Arslanian said investigators didn't have enough information to determine whether the plane broke up in the air or upon impact with the sea, and that in the absence of black box data, they are studying maintenance and other records.
"For the moment, there is no sign that would lead us to believe that the aircraft had a problem before it took off," Arslanian said.
He said investigators did not know the exact time of the accident or whether the chief pilot was at the controls when the plane went down. Pilots on long-haul flights often take turns at the controls to remain alert.
While some experts questioned whether a bolt of lightning alone could bring down an Airbus A330, Mary Schiavo, former inspector general for the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board, said it was plausible.
"For this plane, the difference could have been if the lightning hit a fuel tank or got inside and took out the electrical system," Schiavo said on CBS' The Early Show "It's like an atom bomb."
If no survivors are found, it would be the deadliest crash in Air France's history, and the world's worst civil aviation disaster since the November 2001 crash of an American Airlines jetliner in the New York City borough of Queens that killed 265 people.
Hundreds of relatives grieved deeply for those who were lost, a roster that included vacationers, business people, and an 11-year-old boy traveling alone back to England.
Brazil is holding three days of national mourning, and French President Nicolas Sarkozy was joining relatives at a service at Notre Dame Wednesday.
"We will miss your dancing feet," read a tribute from the Northern Ireland family of Eithne Walls, 29, a dancer-turned-doctor. "We will miss your silliness, your wit and your hugs. We will always hold you in our hearts and you are never truly gone."
Some families said it was too soon to pay homage - the grief was still too raw - and stayed away, Phillips reports.
© MMIX, CBS Interactive Inc. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. The Associated Press contributed to this report.
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Add a Comment See all 37 Comments
- If they are finding intact bodies, then evidently the plane didn't disintegrate in the air. Part of me was hoping that it had exploded or crashed and that the people died instantly. If the autopsies find water in their lungs, then that will indicate they drowned after the crash-land. My prayers to the families. This must be so tough on them.
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- The only time anybody wants information normally sent to a black box is when a plane crashes. With the countless number of aircraft in the skies; it wouldn't be far-fetched for corporations to decide it's not worth the money as planes don't usually find themselves at the bottom of an ocean.
Posted by geminispyder-2009
With today's technology, the data could be streamed to overhead satellites that track the jet, giving exact coordinates, and all the data needed to maintain the aircraft...ie diagnostics could be performed constantly and could provide the ground crew the necessary information to maintain the craft once it touches down to prevent any future problems. It can tell when parts of the plane need to be replaced or even flag the plane and ground it. - Reply to this comment
- Passenger jets can fly through thunderstorms even with such high winds (100mph).Two other jets had just passed through such weather uneventfully. It is unlikely that lightining or weather caused the crash.It is more probable that there was a mechanical fault (probably the result of a on ground collision). One cannot rule out terrorists as these chaps have no laws or morals ,are ruthless and driven by extreme fanticism.
Statistically airtravel is the safest mode of transport, but can you just step out your aircarft in case of a breakdown?Something which is easily done on land and with some difficulty on water .Mortality proportions are the highest in airtravel.
It would be interesting to note that these jets can fly at speeds of about 950kmh and can thus easily out fly or fly around bad weather.But why dont they?
Discussions apart, our prayers to the departed .May their souls rest in peace and may God give strength to their loved ones. While we may forget , those loved ones left behind will grieve forever. God bless them. - Reply to this comment
- Hello,
Although extremely unlikely, but since this was a catastrophic event on a strong aircraft and there is no evidence of what really happened, I wonder if there was a meteor strike on the plane? A number of meteors enter the earth?s atmosphere every hour and encounter less atmosphere at 35,000 feet, thereby increasing the likelihood that some would still survive at that altitude. At speeds up to several miles per second and with high kinetic energy, the consequences of a marble sized one hitting an airplane would be immense. It?s improbable, but possible.
Regards, Bill - Reply to this comment
- more than likely the shoddy constructionand maintence along with corrosion and metal fatigue is what cause it to break apart.
Reminds me of the pplane which lost a chunk of it's roof in flight due to corroion weakening it. - Reply to this comment
- Its far too soon to be certain but the most likely scenario was a major structural fault that disabled most of the on board electronics. The automatic systems and/or the crew most likely attempted to regain some functionality but there would be shear chaos and almost nothing would operate properly. In second, additional structure would break apart and the damage would progress.
Posted by McHineguy at 10:49 PM : Jun 3, 2009
Thanks for the education. I wonder if a better way to transmit all that data might be via satellite. It would probably be expensive to implement, but I don't see any technical issue. A black box could be designed to simultaneously record and transmit data.
If the plane disintegrated in flight, I'm not sure why terrorism has been discounted as a potential cause. It could be a small explosion just enough to cause structural damage and/or loss of cabin pressure, but not enough to cause a fire. On the other hand it could be caused by very strong turbulence, in which case it was probably not a good idea to fly through the storm. - Reply to this comment
- Superstition isn't going to help anyone. Air transport is remarkably safe, and man has to keep on improving on it. If you build a piece of crap, it will crash all the time. If you build a good plane it will usually fly a long time. It's science. God is not part of the equation.
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- The technology to transmit flight data in real time is not that expensive. It would just be through a radio frequency, and would contain the plane's precise location through GPS. You wouldn't need to rely solely on radar for the plane's location. Digital storage is pretty cheap these days, and the data can either be destroyed after each landing, or saved and analyzed as part of the plane's maintenance. I can understand if it's not done on older planes, but for newer planes?
Posted by incog-nito at 7:14 PM : Jun 3, 2009
I am an avionics engineer who has worked on these reporting systems. The technology is available, its affordable, and in most cases its in use!!! Google ACARS. ACARS is basically a real time data reporting system that transmits packets of data via sattelite or other means. I believe it is installed and operational on this flight.
But every system has shortcomings. In the case of ACARS, it is a widespread system with a lot of data passing through from thousands of aircraft. It isnt exactly "instantaneous" because each aircraft must wait its turn for access to a limited number of channels to transmit. Se, its most likely that in the few seconds the aircraft is breaking up the aCARS is waiting its turn to send the data. By the time its turn has arrived it has probably lost power.
The black boxes are designed with self contained battery backup and can actually continue recording data after the plane has begun disintegrating. So, the black boxes will have data up to and possibly including the very second the plane broke apart.
Any data recording system depends on the rest of the aircraft electrical system to relay important data. So, if a key set of wires is broken data from that collection of equipment will be missing. It appears that in this case, the aircraft began failing several minutes before it broke up. The ACARS reported those failures. The black boxes will provide additional data that may have still been available at the box locations. More important, it will have a second by second record of all attempts to recover function before the craft dissintegrated.
Its far too soon to be certain but the most likely scenario was a major structural fault that disabled most of the on board electronics. The automatic systems and/or the crew most likely attempted to regain some functionality but there would be shear chaos and almost nothing would operate properly. In second, additional structure would break apart and the damage would progress. - Reply to this comment
- The technology to transmit flight data in real time is not that expensive. It would just be through a radio frequency, and would contain the plane's precise location through GPS. You wouldn't need to rely solely on radar for the plane's location. Digital storage is pretty cheap these days, and the data can either be destroyed after each landing, or saved and analyzed as part of the plane's maintenance. I can understand if it's not done on older planes, but for newer planes?
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- This plane and the passengers on it will probably be lost for all time, just like thousands of ships that traveled across the ocean, they ran into a storm all hands & the ships were lost at sea. We may never know what happened, we have to be prepared for that. Things happen with storms. The plane should never have been flying into a storm this big. In these troubled economic times, many business will try to "cut corners" and endanger people, all for the sake of saving money..( We can thank the Saudi's for increasing the price of oil. Is Obama going to bring the high cost of oil again to the Saudi King or is he just going to accept the fancy gold necklace the King put around his neck today.?)Anything man-made is subject to Mother Nature and to God...the best thing many of us can do is pray for the people who died on this plane
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- There would have to have been an explosion (or implosion) that caused a instant decompression that could incapacitate the pilots from making any kind of radio calls. The plane would have had to come apart pretty fast at least up front. What a horror. When the plane went down over Long Island, did they get any radio calls out?
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- The U.S. Air Force's newest directed-energy weapon program, the Counter-Electronics High-Powered Microwave Advanced Missile Project (CHAMP), would create a weapon that fires powerful bursts of high-power microwaves (HPM), frying the electronics of multiple targets without harming people or other infrastructure.
CHAMP's microwaves could be delivered from pods on airplanes, unmanned aerial vehicles or even retrievable cruise missiles programmed to safely land near their points of origin, says Doug Beason, a member of the Air Force's Science Advisory Board who has worked on directed-energy weapons.
So they could take out the electronics on an airplane? Render their beacons useless?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,525029,00.html - Reply to this comment
- The question needs asked of Air France if this is such a turbulent area why don't they route their planes on a longer but more easterly route away from the stormy oceanic equatorial area and closer to Africa? Did they do this to save fuel? I\f so it should concern us anytime the airlines sacrifice safety for profits.
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- QUESTION: Why can't the data that the black boxes record be TRANSMITTED in real time to a secure, land-based computer? That way we wouldn't have to wait for answers and wouldn't have to do without them if the black boxes aren't found intact. I do realize it's a LOT of data, considering all the planes in the air at any point, but the data could be erased after each plane lands safely...I asked a pilot friend about this idea and the only problem he could see would be possible privacy issues with the cockpit voice recorder...but transmitting the stuff from the flight data recorder wouldn't be a problem.
Posted by flora68 at 3:09 PM : Jun 3, 2009
ANSWER: The only time anybody wants information normally sent to a black box is when a plane crashes. With the countless number of aircraft in the skies; it wouldn't be far-fetched for corporations to decide it's not worth the money as planes don't usually find themselves at the bottom of an ocean. - Reply to this comment
- QUESTION: Why can't the data that the black boxes record be TRANSMITTED in real time to a secure, land-based computer? That way we wouldn't have to wait for answers and wouldn't have to do without them if the black boxes aren't found intact. I do realize it's a LOT of data, considering all the planes in the air at any point, but the data could be erased after each plane lands safely...I asked a pilot friend about this idea and the only problem he could see would be possible privacy issues with the cockpit voice recorder...but transmitting the stuff from the flight data recorder wouldn't be a problem.
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- flora68 - good question. I have to wonder why we are using WWII technology as the article states when we have so many satelites in orbit too.
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- "Anybody that has traveled anywhere on an airliner know cruise altitude is above storms, except when climbing or desending to off/on load passengers. - truthseaker.
Airlines pretty much stay below 38,000 ft. Thunderheads can go as high as 60,000 ft. - Reply to this comment
- (This is for the sane people here; looneys, please disregard)...
QUESTION: Why can't the data that the black boxes record be TRANSMITTED in real time to a secure, land-based computer? That way we wouldn't have to wait for answers and wouldn't have to do without them if the black boxes aren't found intact.
I do realize it's a LOT of data, considering all the planes in the air at any point, but the data could be erased after each plane lands safely...
I asked a pilot friend about this idea and the only problem he could see would be possible privacy issues with the cockpit voice recorder...but transmitting the stuff from the flight data recorder wouldn't be a problem. - Reply to this comment
- Once again, as soon as this story broke the media assumed it was lightning that downed the craft. Anybody that has traveled anywhere on an airliner know cruise altitude is above storms, except when climbing or desending to off/on load passengers. Early BS reports from abnbcbs indicated the flight was lost approx 50 min out so it would have been close to cruising altitude and above any weather. The size debris field described indicates the craft came/blew apart at a high altitude. I'm wonder why they didnt jump on the ice thing again? Seemed to work well on the one that came down in Buffalo. By the way never did get the full story with what was on the black box of that one. Remember that was the flight that the woman who was taking the government to court for the 9/11 thing.
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- I agree with meinohio2, I am sick to death of these aviation-related article being written by non-aviation, totally clueless reporters, hyping the crap out of nothing, and making everyone who reads it dumber than they were before. Someone said, "believe half of what you hear, and none of what you read".....good advice
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