Buffalo Crash Pilot's Skills Questioned

Had Racked Up 5 Unsatisfactory Test Flights And Lacked Simulator Training On Stall Warning System

(CBS)  Serious questions were raised Monday about the pilot of Continental Flight 3407 and the training he received prior to the February crash which killed all 49 people aboard.

CBS News correspondent Nancy Cordes reports Colgan Air confirms the captain on that frigid Buffalo night, 47-year-old Marvin Renslow, had racked up five unsatisfactory test flights, called "check rides." Two were during his three-year tenure at the airline, and three in the years before that.

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Transcript of cockpit conversation on Colgan Air Flight 3407, which crashed in Buffalo, N.Y.

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Renslow had just 2 months experience on the Q400 turboprop. His co-pilot, Rebecca Shaw, was 24 years old.

Former National Transportation and Safety Board member John Goglia says, "It looks like we have two inexperienced crew members in the cockpit. And we learned a long time ago that that's not a very good idea."

The plane was on final approach to Buffalo Niagara International Airport in upstate New York when the stick shaker activated, alerting pilots that they were going too slow and about to stall. As the stick automatically pushed forward in order to dive the plane and pick up airspeed, the captain pulled up -- exactly the opposite of what pilots are trained to do.

Operator Colgan Air acknowledged Monday that Renslow never trained on the stall warning system in a simulator, only in the classroom.

"The stick-shaker training is, in my view, very, very important," Goglia says. "And to just read it out of a book and just talk about it is not very good training."

Scott Maurer lost his 30-year-old daughter Lorin in the crash, which also killed a 50th victim on the ground. An athletic manager at Princeton University, he went to Washington with Lorin's boyfriend hoping to get some answers on the crash at NTSB hearings scheduled for this week.

Kevin Kuwik, Lorin's boyfriend, says, "The things you're hearing today, they certainly don't give you a warm and fuzzy feeling about the day-to-day operations of some of these small commuter airlines."

Colgan Air points out that its training regimen was examined and approved by the Federal Aviation Administration. NTSB sources say the FAA standards will be a prime focus at the hearings.

[FunFlyPilot]

Look guys... I KNOW FOR A FACT the pilot killed him self on purpose. He even planned it to be on Febuary 12th the same day as the new CIA director was confirmed by the senate. I have no idea his motivations other than a suicide. He had once told me that he pretty much wanted to die in a firey plane crash and wanted his passengers to die with a scary ride. No one could prove he was going to do it but he basically... TOLD people, went on a weak extorsion attempt... racketed up some demands I assume just maybe to see if he could do it... He maybe had been envolved in some other things... Again, I have no idea his motivation other than he had basically decided to just do it. I was asked to help out but I never had been given the correct information and had made an ill assumption I had been trained/tested as a potential federal air marshal or something like...

He really had me on his airplane in Austin, TX in late 2008 threatening to fly into the Frost Bank tower in Austin, TX with me onboard. I have no way to back up any information and I will refuse to be a public figure or have my name published... but I hope this ******* gets exposed.

[novamba]

A family member who flies commercial cargo is not allowed to resume flying if he fails any check ride. If he fails twice he looses his job. Another great accomplishment of labor unions, reward mediocrity. This gentleman perhaps should not have been flying, but who can fire a unionized pilot?

[responsible_reporting]

weedapool.... you would soil yourself if you knew how wrong you are.... the difference is I give credit to the ENTIRE crew (just like Capt. Sully).

He did an amazing job... so did his first officer, so did the flight attendants...

[weedapoopl]

I m sick and tired of hearing all this praise for Capt. Sully. The entire credi belongs with Capt. Sullenberger and HIS ENTIRE CREW!
Posted by responsible_reporting at 6:59 AM : May 13, 2009

Sully was at the controls.

Sully knew to put the nose DOWN, not up.

If you won't give credit to him, you're no pilot.

[weedapoopl]

I was told I was hysterical and would not be allowed to fly on the airline again it I went to the FAA.
Posted by carytc at 4:01 PM : May 12, 2009

Then I would call the FAA to shut down the whole company, if that's the attitude I got.

You would get the royal treatment from then on. The owner would fly you personally in his own plane.

[weedapoopl]

The animation is startling.... Have any of you ever practiced a trim stall?
Posted by responsible_reporting at 6:59 AM : May 13, 2009

Check the animation again. Look at the lower edge of the image and you can actually see the pilot's control inputs.

He PULLED BACK ON THE YOKE IMMEDIATELY when the stick shaker activated.

He NEVER ONCE PUSHED FORWARD to lower the nose.

The plane was snap rolling violently to the left and to the right.

And he kept hugging the yoke and holding the nose 20 to 30 degrees above the horizon.

That is not a mistake, it's gross incompetence. It's the exact opposite of what any student pilot must learn to do before he's allowed to fly solo.

Yes, I am a certificated pilot.

Are you?

[responsible_reporting]

weedapool.... are you a certificated pilot? have you had training of any kind? Were mistakes made, likely small mistakes happen in every commercial flight that departs thousands of times daily around the entire country.

Was Captain Sullenberger start out as the hero how saved flight 1549? No, he started out learning the same way every pilot at every REGIONAL airline does. Also, I m sick and tired of hearing all this praise for Capt. Sully. The entire credi belongs with Capt. Sullenberger and HIS ENTIRE CREW! Capt. Sullenberger has struggled to get the media to recognize this, but the thick headed media can't seem to get it right!

The animation is startling.... Have any of you ever practiced a trim stall? That is a very likely scenario of what happened here. Yes mistakes were probably made. IF power was left at a low power setting, and they were coming onto the approach at a level attitude, the airplane (in the absence of auto throttles) is going to use trim to maintain that preselected altitude at any cost. When the aircraft stalls (which it did) the shaker and pusher system fires (with upwards of 70 pounds of force) to break the stall. Pilots are then trained to go to MAX power and recover from the stall which when you are only about 1,000 feet Above Ground Level includes pitching up to establish a positve rate of climb. NOT holding the nose down and turning the airplane into a lawn dart.

I'm not sure what the Shaft Horsepower is on the Q400, but with an airplane trimmed in normal flight, going to MAX power causes and immediate nose pitch up attitude. Taking an airplane that is already trimmed for a nose high attitude and going to MAX power will lead to that 30 degrees nose up in a heartbeat!

[weedapoopl]

The stick shaker came on immediately when the flaps were lowered from 5 to 15 degrees.

The pilot responded immediately by pulling back on the yoke and raising the nose as soon as the stick shaker activated. The stupidest possible thing to do.

The airplane rolled violently to the left, and the pilot applied right rudder and aileron. The stick pusher came on as the plane rolled to wings level, with nose high. The pilot fought the stick pusher and held the yoke back from then on.

The airplane began a series of violent rolling maneuvers, and the pilot countered with aileron and rudder, while holding up elevator almost constantly. Not once did the pilot apply down elevator.

In the final roll, the pilot stopped using rudder and used only aileron and up elevator. The airplane rolled into a vertical bank angle and struck the ground with the wings vertical and the nose down 45 degrees.

What a total idiot. He never should have been allowed to fly solo and get a student ticket.

But Continental airlines put him in the left seat.

Fly Continental - cheaper is better, right?

[weedapoopl]

I just watched the NTSB animation of the crash.

http://online.wsj.com/video/simulation-of-last-minutes-of-flight-3407/19504FFC-F117-48D0-813F-276796CD14EC.html

You can see the pilot raised the nose about 30 degrees above level. NO competent pilot would allow that.

[number1GI]

The airline is to blame for allowing the pilot to continue to fly. The testing was FAA approved yes and the pilot failed it 5 TIMES ! End of story. I would sue the airlines