Gates Treads Lightly On Gays In Military

Defense Secretary Urges Caution On Potential Changes To "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Policy

(CBS/AP)  Defense Secretary Robert Gates is urging caution about potential changes to the U.S. military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy governing the openness of gay troops.

Speaking at the Army War College, Gates stressed he is not yet taking a position about whether gay troops should be open about their sexuality. That could lead to their discharge under current policy dating to the Clinton administration.

President Barack Obama committed during the 2008 presidential campaign to moving to end the policy. But Gates notes that it took five years for the U.S. armed forces to integrate during the Truman administration.

Gates is touring war colleges this week, selling his plan to reorder the Pentagon budget. He wants to cancel some big programs and scale back others.

[kansas1946]

wonder why gays want to insist that "everybody" accept their gayness ? Why can't they just be gay if that's what they choose to be, and shut up about it ?
Posted by luke_4u at 4:58 PM : Apr 17, 2009
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I have never in my life heard any gay person insist that anyone "accept their gayness." What they want are equal rights under the law. Hysteria should not make law and most of what I have read on this board is nothing but homophobic hysteria based on no fact.

[flreason]

And what about the young lady who is a soldier that doesnt want to shower in front of other men? I mean, what is her problem? Is she worried that the men will "get off" when seeing them? What is her problem anyway?
_____________________

First off how did those guys make it through bootcamp? Because I can guarantee you there were gays who went through bootcamp with them.... it's not as uncommon as you would like to think. Chances are they have showered next to a gay man and never even knew it.

Second, you are talking to the wrong woman about nudity. I have no problem with nudity around my friends... we don't look at eachother that way, but several of us have showered in the same room before (at a resort with an out of order womans shower)... I have also showered in the same room as lesbians (both in boot camp, and at my command) and I never felt oogled or the least bit uncomfortable... I am secure enough in my sexuality not to be threatened by showering in the same room as a lesbian (they haven't tried to have their way with me yet..). However, I can see your point about the front lines (not all people are as secure as I).. so the simplest solution would be to have trial units that would test the feasibility of homosexuals on the front line... if it proves to be too much of a problem, then allow them to serve in the same capacity as women do... that is a good way to begin integration of homosexuals into the military.

[cs4466]

I wonder why gays want to insist that "everybody" accept their gayness ? Why can't they just be gay if that's what they choose to be, and shut up about it ?
Posted by luke_4u at 4:58 PM : Apr 17, 2009

I could care less about what you think about me or whether or not you "accept" my so-called gayness. I just want equal treatment under law - the right to marry (civil marriage, not religious marriage, the two things are completely separate). You can be as bigoted as you want, but you cannot discriminate against me through the law.

[luke_4u]

I wonder why gays want to insist that "everybody" accept their gayness ? Why can't they just be gay if that's what they choose to be, and shut up about it ? Or if being gay is such a big problem for them, then why not switch and choose to be straight ? The whole world doesn't "need" to know that they picked being gay, instead of being straight.

[cs4466]

I have to think that the gay man has the same urges when seeing men that straight men have when seeing women.
Posted by mortar29 at 12:54 PM : Apr 17, 2009

Primitive ape. You've been showering with gay men all your life - at school, at the gym, at the Y - you just werent' aware of it. Because unlike animals like you, we know how to control ourselves and we know what is appropriate and what is not. You're beneath contempt.

[manlambda]

Let's see because she's a soldier and would know signing up that is possible. If you're willing to go into combat you know what you're getting yourself into. Obviously this hasn't been an issue with the Israeli army so it shouldn't be here.

[manlambda]

They might but guess what they are there to do a job. Obviously the Israeli army has done a hell of a job all these years. According to you they should have been overrun by now because str8 gays can't control their urges and they are frightened by the gay men so Israel should now be an Islamic state. They are proof positive that gays, str8s, men and women can serve together and guess what do a hell of a job.

[manlambda]

You have yet to address the fact that this is not an issue with other countries and second really our soldiers in foxholes days on end and showering there. That's not what I saw in the coverage of Iran and Afghanistan. Hell Israel has had women for years in combat. It can be done with no issues. You are just showing your homophobia with these comment and yes it is fear if you think that a gay man is going to get a thrill watching you shower.

[manlambda]

Again projected paranoia. Do you think that other countries have faced this in their ranks? I sent some things I found on the internet how it has affected other countries and there seems to be no issues. Israel has been since 1982 and not known as the most liberal country. Guess what no issues. Again it is homophobia afraid that a gay man might get off seeing them. The last thing anyone is going to be thinking of in combat is sex. And really is this really happening nowadays that soldiers are spending days and days in foxholes??

[flreason]

As I said, I am not going to say he cant be muslim, or gay, or straight, or a cross dresser, etc. It doesnt matter. But, if his activities cause an issue with the rest of the unit, he must cease doing them.

Let me first say that I have been deployed to the gulf twice... and both of those times were on a ship. I'm sure you think that it's hard to get along with someone you don't agree with on land, but it is doubly hard on a 500 ft ship in the middle of the ocean... I have seen tempers flare at times. However we make it work... as would the rest of the commands if openly homosexual members were allowed in.

Now, this brings me to my next point... Do you really think that gays would be more apt to cause problems than anyone else? It's not like they can't show some restraint when it comes to the work place... If the UCMJ were adjusted to omit the homosexual clause then it would be just like any other person... if they cause trouble in a command, then you move them to another command... and if they show a record of causing trouble, then you bring punative actions against them.... up to and including separation from the service. It's that simple!

[manlambda]

But you seem cavalier about breaking them when you see fit. If the policy says that soldiers can serve openly you have said you will break that rule by telling them they can't because you think it will cause issues with the unit. So you have chosen to break the rules even though you agree with them.
Just to be clear I am not talking about gay soldiers hitting on other soldiers. That would be wrong and would be covered under harassment. I am talking about a soldier who might have a boyfriend back home and that boyfriend comes up in conversation just like girlfriends come up in conversations with str8 soldiers. I love how you pick and choose. It is written in the code you can break a rule for the cohesion of the unit.

[manlambda]

Not i think you're just making up stuff include being in the military. There is NO WAY a soldier could be told he cannot worship his religion. If so you are breaking a code you claim to cherish. You can't have it both way you can't follow the code then break it too. Again I call BS.

[manlambda]

Sorry that is different in that he was endangering himself that takes issue. Now if the same soldier was doing it in the barracks and his unit had a problem and you stopped it you would break breaking code. I don't buy for one second you could do this. Even though it is military they don't give up there religious rights and you would be infringing on them. To say otherwise is BS.

[manlambda]

But if the policy allows a soldier to be openly gay then you aren't following the policy. Just as if a Muslim soldier prayed to Mecca six times a day and your unit had trouble with it. You would be breaking policy by discriminating against him. Try doing that and see how far it gets you.

[manlambda]

Mortar,
Well you just answered my post. If the policy changed it shouldn't be an issue because as a soldier you follow orders and you expect the same from your soldiers. That's how it should be so your argument against lifting it doesn't hold water. The soldiers are to obey the policy end of story.

[manlambda]

There you go again showing your lack of leadership skills. If the ban was lifted tomorrow it should not be an issue and if it is you aren't doing your job. It should have no bearing on cohesiveness on your unit just as when integrating African Americans the same thing had to be faced. If you couldn't do that then maybe you aren't as good of a soldier as you think.
Again if the ban is lifted it's your job and your duty to insure the mission. If you couldn't because of your prejudices then maybe it is you with the issue.

[flreason]

Hi mortar,

This is flreason's daughter and I am in the US military. I have known and been friends with many gays and lesbians in the term of my career (both officers and enlisted) and most poeple on board and in the command know of their sexual orientation... and guess what? We don't care! Gays do not cause any more problems than straight service members, and in many ways they cause fewer. I cranked with two openly gay men. Everyone knew and no one cared.... in fact they wrote a list during deployment of the top 50 hottest guys in the command... and many of the (straight) guys on that list were at least flattered, some were even bragging. (BTW it was well known where the list came from). We even had an officer who looked the other way when he found gay porn in an enlisted members rack. The enlisted man was a very hard worker and well liked by many, and so the officer just told him to get rid of it and that was the end of that. I mean half of the straight guys I know do stuff that I would think of as gay... like ball tapping, or tea bagging, or dirty sanchezes, or walking around berthing BUT A$$ NAKED!... and nobody gives them a hard time.

So as you can see, this military rule is not strictly adhered to by all.. because (like the age limit of 12 y/o being legal for sexual consent) some rules just don't make sense anymore. It's also illegal in the military to perform sodomy with any partner, (gay or straight)... are you guys going to come into someone's bedroom and tell them how they can or can't have sex? No, that would just be ridiculous and you know it.

You say you are just against something if it effects the command, well... that is why, in most commands, there is a strict dating policy. I see no conflict in adding gay and lesbian relationships to that policy. What a person does in their free time is their own concern. Perhaps you should only allow unichs to enlist in the military... that would solve all your problems wouldn't it? *sarcasm*

The fact of the matter is that gays and lesbians are not detrimental to the moral of the majority.... it is only the homophobes who care, and many of them couldn't pick a gay person out of a crowd of 2 (so they just call everyone gay). I personally like going out on liberty with gay men... that way I don't have to worry about being hit on while we're out having fun and many service women feel the same way. You and a comparatively small group of other people are the only ones who make having gays in the military a taboo... most of us don't really care. There... I've said my peace.

[flreason]

We dont need the problem of dating, sex, nudity, etc that goes with folks that would be attracted to each other...happening in the field. It distracts from our mission and is VERY, VERY dangerous!!

Our job is to protect this nation by doing violence to our enemies. As I said, ANY ACTIONS that distracts from that must be done away with. We do not have the luxury of failure.

Mortar,

Soldiers and sexual activity are syonymous. It is one way of dealing with stress. If they aren't screwing each other, they're screwing locals. The headline-grabbing rape cases are just the tip of the iceberg. The more restrained/moral members support the local economies at brothels. There are many rapes of locals that are never reported because of language barriers, families trying to save face, payoffs, etc. The pristine picture you paint of the front lines without the presence of female or gay troops is, if you will excuse the double entendre, a fairy tale.

UCMJ Article 120, Section B states that a person may found guilty of carnal knowledge if they have sexual intercourse with a female that is not either their wife or, if not married, a woman under the age of 16. (Until 2007 the age limit was 12!)

So, as you can see, the UCMJ is less than perfect, and can survive amendment. Life, particularly in a war setting, is messy and most UCMJ infractions are never reported or are hushed up. Changing it to decriminalize the participation of openly gay recruits in the military will not break the system, any more than changing the age of consensual contact to 16 did!

[manlambda]

So if he says it one time here it is then you want have an issue. You'd tell him not to say it again then it's over. So you are OK with him being openly gay.

[manlambda]

See there you go again changing your story. Let's change the scenario. Say a soldiers says he is gay. No actions nothing else. See you are a hypocrite plain and simple.