All Is Forgiven?

Those Who Suffer Tragedy May Take Different Paths; Now Neuroscience Suggests Revenge Can Be More Unhealthy Than Forgiveness

(CBS)  Can anyone who's suffered at the hands of another ever look that person in the eye and truly say that all is forgiven? On this Easter Sunday it's a question worth pondering. Our Cover Story is reported by Martha Teichner:

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Forgive his executioners. That's what Jesus asked of God as he was dying on the cross. "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do," He said.

With Christ's death and the celebration of his resurrection, today, on Easter, the world's two billion-plus Christians are reminded of a teaching central to their faith - that if God can forgive the worst of sins, so can they.

"The Easter story in our tradition of Christ's movement from victim to victor is a model of how we can respond to tragedy in our own lives, and to move beyond it," said Rev. Chloe Breyer, an Episcopal priest in New York City.

Fine in theory, but hard in practice.

Ask victims of Bernie Madoff's multi-billion dollar Ponzi scheme.

"I want his family to feel the pain they've inflicted on our family," said one man.

Are there wrongs that are unforgivable, such as the Nazi death camps during the Holocaust? Are the families who lost loved ones on 9/11 ready to forgive the hijackers?

Caught up in their anguish, most Americans never even heard about a horrific car accident a few days after the Twin Towers tragedy, or about the drunk driver who killed eight members of the University of Wyoming's cross country team.

"It was such a severe crash that the bodies of the boys were strung out through that burrow ditch for 100 yards," said Kerry Shatto (left). "He'd actually carried some of 'em on his bumper."

Shatto's son Shane was one of the dead runners. "I was proud about his uniform," he said. "To have your son on a university team is a big deal."

Shatto put up a cross with eight names on it at the crash site.

Debbie McLeland also lost her son, Morgan. "He died there on the highway, alone, without me," she said. "I couldn't say 'goodbye.'

"That bothered me for quite a while. And then I thought about it and I thought how afraid he must've been, you know, because you're a mom."

Clint Haskins says he has no memory of that night. A 21-year-old senior at the University of Wyoming on the rodeo team, he'd been drinking for hours at a party, then a bar.

He's now serving a 14- to 20-year sentence for 8 counts of vehicular homicide.

Debbie McLeland has forgiven him. Kerry Shatto has not.

"I just can't live my life that way. I cannot live my life with a grudge and with hate and anger in my heart, I just can't," said McLeland (left).

But Shatto said, "If I forgive him, then my son died for nothing. And I guess that's the part that drives me. I don’t want these eight boys to die for nothing."

As his son was, Shatto is a volunteer fireman. He's worked tirelessly against drunk driving. He's on committees, and gives talks.

So does Debbie McLeland. "There is no safe way to drink and drive," she said at one appearance.

But look at how she's done it - appearing on the same stage as Clint Haskins (left). She and Haskins first appeared together in 2004.

"There hasn't been a single day since this happened that I don't realize what I'm responsible for," Haskins said.

The sight of the two of them, embracing, shocked and angered the other parents.

McLeland is unapologetic.

"I'm really angry about a lot of things and I'm really angry that I don't have my child," she said. "But I have to deal with this and I have to deal with it how I can. And I can't deal with it without forgiving."

Clint Haskins is expected to come up for parole in another couple of years and, yes, Debbie McLeland (Morgan's mother) and Kerry Shatto (Shane's father) disagree over whether the person who took their sons' lives should go free.

"I want him to have a life," McLeland said. "You know, my son has no life. I want Clint to have a Life. I want him to have a wife and children and a family."

But Shatto said, "He gets out some day and he gets to have a family, and he gets to see his parents again, but my son will never get any of that. I don't have the forgiveness, that's just not in my heart to do that."

Kerry Shatto and Debbie McLeland: How could they come to opposite conclusions? It seems that human beings are driven by two very different impulses at the same time.

"Revenge and forgiveness are like two sides of the coin," said Michael McCullough, a psychology professor at the University of Miami.

"We know absolutely that revenge is this universal feature of human nature, but we also know now that there is a natural, evolved capacity to forgive that also exists in every human mind on the planet."

We're taught that revenge is like a disease. But in his recent book, "Beyond Revenge: The Evolution of the Forgiveness Instinct" (Josey-Bass), McCullough argues otherwise.

"This is one of the real surprises from neuroscience over the last decade: Revenge is not coming from some sick, demented, ill part of the brain," McCullough said. "The brain system that produces revenge is the same system we use when we're looking for something to eat when we're hungry.

"Desire: it's the desire to satisfy a craving," he said.

Forgiveness involves the part of the brain associated with empathy (the anterior cingulate cortices).

"So forgiveness is born in part of the experience of somebody else's pain," McCullough said. "It doesn't feel very good to people to seek revenge against people they feel sorry for."

When somebody harms us, we get upset emotionally and physically. We might hunger for revenge - but forgiveness is better for our health.

"You want to feel better," McCullough said. "Revenge can do that in the short term, but it's kind of like junk food, really, in terms of happiness. In the long term, what forgiveness does is it restores valuable relationships, and that has a long term, sort of satisfying quality to it."

There's the old saying that forgiveness is divine. "In Christianity, forgiveness is a central tenet," said Rev. Breyer.

Which brings us back to religion. Forgiveness, says Rabbi Simkha Weintraub, is central to Judaism.

At a conversation with representatives of four different faiths arranged by the Interfaith Center of New York, Imam Shamsi Ali said, "The most frequent attribute of God mentioned in the Holy Koran is His mercy and forgiveness."

Lama Pema Wangdak talks about forgiveness as part of a quest toward a perfect, timeless principle of patience: "Part because we have nothing to forgive to anybody, part because we don't see the enemy outside. We see enemy inside of us."

"There have been holy wars in the name of religious faith for centuries," said "Teichner. "How can the same religions that promote forgiveness also condone and take part in war?"

"Those who were involved in the revenge, those were involved in the wars, are people who try to follow religions, but often time they fail," said Imam Shamsi Ali. "Some of those are using Islam as justification for their own purposes. And I think bin Laden in his way is one of those."

But for Imam Shamsi Ali, being forgiving doesn't mean being a doormat: "Forgiveness doesn't mean for us to be oppressed, because we are human beings and we are realistic that we have that right to defend."

"We do not have a religiously-sanctioned wars," said Lama Wangdak.

But in Tibet last year, Buddhist monks rioted during protests against China, demonstrating a classic dilemma:

"If you're peaceful and kind to the person who is not kind and always harmful to you, are you encouraging him or her? So the risk is always there, whether you do it in a peaceful way or the harmful way. Again, we go back to the principle: Just do the right thing."

Rabbi Weintraub offered an example from Passover: "There's a point in the traditional Seder where we turn to God and we say, pour out your wrath against those nations that have come after us, and hand it over to God."

"Vengeance left to God means forgiveness is our responsibility," said Rev. Breyer. "Don't come asking God for forgiveness, don't expect to be reconciled, unless you have been reconciled between the brother or the sister that you have offended.

"In the Lord's Prayer, we say, 'Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us,'" said Rev. Breyer.

But as Debbie McLeland and Kerry Shatto know only too well, yes, that's fine in theory, but hard in practice.

Easter is all about giving us hope and the will to keep trying …

[airjackie]

Yes Jesus asked God to forgive us but let's look at it a different way. 2000 Bush said God wanted him to be President. For 8 years corruption and murder was done under God's name by the White House. Does anyone think the 151,000 Iraq people we bombed to death we we attack Iraq will forgive. What about the thousands kidnapped and tortured/rape/murdered by the Bush Administration will they forgive. What about the children the US kidnapped and tortured will they forgive and grow up to love the USA? People and Churches have been twiisting the Bible and God's words for so long. I remember listening as a child to a KKK person who used the bible to justify murdering black people. I asked my Grandmother was he right did God say that? She told me to look up the passage in the Bible and read it. The KKK dude was right but he twisted the words to fit what he wanted. This is why it was so easy for the Republican Crime Wave as once again Christians listen to the Satan worshippers who used God's name. Madoff isn't along and there is a big difference from forgiveness to being sucked in. Some of those using God and Jesus will again be used and will have what they have left taken. Jesus also wanted people to be smart and not be tricked but it's still happening.

[JTreherne]

Cody Brown, my nephew, was one of the eight and our family adored him. He was going to be a dental missionary. Thinking about his laugh still makes me laugh. He was a lot of fun and just a blessing. Our memories of him are only good one's. Even though he only had 21 years, his life impacted a lot of people. Some people bring pain in this life and others bring joy. Cody always brought joy. We still feel the loss and will love and miss him as long as we live. That's all I can say......I just miss Cody & look forward to seeing him again.

[dswertz]

My heart aches for the families of those boys. I feel even sadder though for Mr. Shatto holding the belief that as long as he refuses to forgive then somehow his son's death will not be in vain. The sad fact is that his son's life was cruelly ended as a result of the selfish and stupid choices of another person. His life was ripped from him through no fault of his own and will have been taken in vain UNLESS there is forgiveness!

Forgiveness does not mean devaluing the life that was taken. Forgiveness does not mean forgetting what was done. Forgiveness says simply that the person wronged willingly and intentionally lays down the "right to avenge" their grief. Forgiveness does not diminish the loss - it creates a place for healing to take place.

It will be only in forgiving the young man whose actions caused so much tragedy that Mr. Shatto's life will truly become one of honor and testament to his beloved son. It surely may be that the act of forgiving does more for the forgiver than the forgiven.

[brianbwb-2009]

Forgiveness is only heathier for the perpetrators.

What is article, a pre-emptive plea from Bush before we bring him up on charges for his crimes?

Or a plea for forgiveness from the neocon-derthal racists, now that they have become a "minority?"

Or a plea from crooked corporate CEOs and upper management, whose misdeeds are about to be made public in the light of increased scrutiny?

To all of the above groups, don't expect any forgiveness from me, and be glad that I am not in authority over your judgment, and especially your sanction.

"But Shatto said, "He gets out some day and he gets to have a family, and he gets to see his parents again, but my son will never get any of that. I don't have the forgiveness, that's just not in my heart to do that."

Nor need it be. Non-forgiveness and anger may be related, but not inseparable. Don't forgive the perp who harmed you and yours until like measure is required and exacted from the perp, then you can work to let go of your anger, as it is not logical to be angry at that which no longer exists. It is futile anger that is harmful.

[willowmika]

Shatto said, "If I forgive him, then my son died for nothing." It is unfair to have an innocent life taken in such a tragic way. Until you have experienced a loss of someone you love deeply, you can not really know the darkness of sorrow. However, I am not sure that I understand how, by not forgiving, it makes it so that your son died for a reason. How does wanting Clint's life to be one of punishment and despair make your son's death worth something? What is more important is that your son, Shane, LIVED for a good reason. He brought a depth of love that no parents can ever imagine until they have a child. It is a love like no other and can never broken, not even by death. Your son touched the lives of countless others, perhaps not even realizing how small gestures made big differences. Forgiving does not mean forgetting. It doesn't mean that you aren't angry and sad about the loss of your son and the unfairness of his death. It doesn't mean that you have to give forgiveness in the same way Debbie has. But, it does mean that hate will no longer be held tightly in your heart and that you can begin to let go of that awful, paralyzing bitterness. I wish you moments of rest as you journey the lonely path of grief. Be gentle with yourself. Shane's love will always surround you.

[Humanist38]

You had representatives from four religions talk about forgiveness during the story "All is forgiven"?
Where was the representative from the US community of Humanists, Skeptics, Atheists,
Agnostics, and Freethinkers? They make up a larger group than three of the four groups
you had represented!
In case you could not find anyone from this wonderful group of american TV viewers, let
me help you.
Contact one of the many Humanist organizations, they will find someone for you.

[debmwyinet]

Thank you for your report. I am pleased with the story. I hope that you know how much it means to me to remeber Morgan without anger and vengeance. i also want to stress that Kerry Shatto and I are friends. The fact that we disagree about Clint doesn't mean that that we do support and care for each other. Thanks again for the story. This is one of the ways to keep these young men from dieing in vain.
Debbie McLeland
Morgan's Mom