Romania Weighs Decriminalizing Incest

Consensual Relations Between Relations Already Legal In Several European Nations

(AP)  Surprising as it may seem, incest is not always a crime in Europe.

Three European Union nations - France, Spain and Portugal - do not prosecute consenting adults for incest, and Romania is considering following suit.

The shocking case of Austrian Josef Fritzl, found guilty this week of holding his daughter captive for 24 years and fathering her seven children, has focused new attention on incest - which is a crime in itself in Austria even if the acts are consensual. But in the Fritzl case it was in connection with rape, homicide and other charges that led to a sentence of life in a secure psychiatric ward.

Laws exempting parents, grandparents, brothers and sisters from prosecution for incestuous acts if they are not forced upon adult family members are decades old in France, Spain and Portugal.

In Romania, decriminalizing incest among consenting adults is being considered as part of a wide range of reforms to the country's criminal code. No date has been set yet for a parliament vote on the bill, and opposition to the proposal is fervent even among some lawmakers in the ruling coalition.

Currently all forms of incest in Romania are punishable by up to seven years in prison. But Romania's Justice Ministry suggests the new legislation would move the country - which joined the European Union two years ago - closer legally to some other EU members.

"Not everything that is immoral has to be illegal," said Justice Ministry legal expert Valerian Cioclei. "We cannot help these people by turning them into criminals and punishing them."

Incest is defined as sexual intercourse between people too closely related to marry legally. In the United States, all 50 states and the District of Columbia prohibit even consensual incest, although a few states impose no criminal penalties for it, according to the Harvard Law Review.

Newspaper articles in Romania have criticized the planned legal change over consensual incest. The ministry, however, countered with a statement claiming that incest cannot be stopped with "criminal sanctions, but with medical and social measures, because incest is based on pathological factors."

Not all Romanians accept the Justice's Ministry's argument.

Anuta Popa, a 22-year-old woman in the western city of Cluj, said she doubted that incest ever happened by consent in her country, saying it was more likely that the man was drunk and violently attacked his sister or mother.

"Incest should not be legalized. If they want to have sex, better to say a prayer and remember that God sees them," she declared. "I would castrate them."

Iosif Damian, a 56-year-old cleaner, said he was unsure if consulting adults should be jailed for incest but added "I think it is shameful all the same."

"Or (if) they are ill and prison is not a solution, they need medical help," he said.

But one 27-year old chauffeur did not see any problem with the legal change.

"If brothers and sisters want to have fun, why should they be imprisoned? It is nobody's business what I do in my bedroom," Ionut Breazu of Cluj told the Associated Press.

Challenges in countries where incest is a crime surface occasionally.

In Germany, the country's highest court last year rejected an appeal by a man who was sent to prison after fathering four children with his sister in a consensual relationship.

Opponents say that children born out of incest face an increased risk of genetic problems, especially inherited disorders of "recessive" conditions, or those caused by a double dose of a gene that carries a mutation - one from each parent. There are about 3,500 recessive conditions, most of them very rare.

"Everyone carries several of these recessive gene mutations, but since most of them are extremely rare, the chance of two unrelated people carrying a mutation in the same gene is low," said Jess Buxton, spokesman for the British Society of Human Genetics.

But he said sexual relationships between relatives more closely related than cousins carry increased risks to offspring because the adults share a greater proportion of their genetic material. Full siblings share 50 percent of their genetic material, as do parents and their children.

"The closer the biological relationship between two people, the higher the risk of passing on a recessive condition to their children," Buxton said.

And then there are the moral dilemmas over incest.

"It generates a confusion of roles," says Romanian psychologist Aurora Liceanu. "Imagine: how can one explain to a child that his father is also his grandfather?"

Opposition also comes from the Romanian Orthodox Church, which counts some 85 percent of the population among its worshippers and says incest "affects the moral and psychological health of human beings ... the sacred family institution, and public morality."

A Vatican spokesman declined to directly comment on the issue but pointed to Catholic Church doctrine, which bans incest among immediate relatives and says it "corrupts family relationships."

And sentiment appears strong against any form of incest even in the countries where it is legal among consenting adults. An IPSOS poll in France taken in January showed that 59 percent of the 931 respondents thought all forms of incest should be considered a criminal offense. No margin of error was published.

Yet around Europe, there is some acceptance of consensual incest among adults.

Irish homemaker Margaret Henry, 42, said society shouldn't be so concerned about it.

"(Why are they) arresting people for what they do in their own homes, as long as they're adults and they're not hurting each other?" she asked.

That sentiment was shared by Hermann Koening, a 23-year-old graphic designer from Duesseldorf, Germany.

"Incest is a sin," Koening said while waiting at a Dublin bus stop. "But maybe it's wrong to make it a crime."

[problem09]

As I read this article and then the comments I am sickened more and more. I think that the government goes to far on a ton of things, this is not one of them however. This world will be in a very bad way if it continues to use the reasoning of if they are doing it, it must not be that bad. I hope that it never gets put through there or anywhere. Besides there is the issue that many have already pointed out. The issue of consenting adults involved in incest is very tricky. There will never be all of the facts in cases like this. I have a question, what if Romainia allowed incest like France and this story happened? Would they have punished her father or as much as they had?

[Spitz512]

You cannot tolerate some unacceptable sexual behavior without setting a precedent to tolerate others. Replace the word "incest" with "homosexuality" and this article could have been written a generation ago. In another generation there will be a push to legalize "family marriages" just like there is a push to legalize "same sex marriages" today.

[hamiltongrad]

It is a crime to eat transfat but not your sister ?

[Ozark_Sunshine]

This explains a lot about these countries where family trees have no branches. Especially the French.

[ireallydoknow]

A very interesting article. It's a challenge for me to separate my disgust re the topic from the argument set forth. Perhaps, if we had judges with this insight, we would not be paying so much to be the most imprisoned nation on earth (odds 1 of 15 citizens will be incarcerated in their lifetime, I recently read). But incest! It's hard to accept the insight re this issue -- I guess, ours is but one view in the world.

[toolmangler-2009]

Posted by coronalu at 10:50 AM : Mar 22, 2009



Well said and very true.!!!
People world wide and especially Americans seek ways to justify their way of doing things (life style). Every group that is outcast or on the fringes of society seeks relief from persecution. The Sexual deviants first had to "come out of the closet" as a step towards acceptance, Now they are nearing their goal for legitimacy of marriage. other forms of deviant or immoral behavior will take their que from the earlier gains made simply because of the (Victimless Crime) mindset being foisted over and over on a gullible public.. Abotion has been made legal, very soon growing embryos for stem cells will become the norm. Murders of the poor for organ transplants are already becoming commonplace. I can forsee many other scenarios rising up in this experiment of 'total freedom' called American democracy. It is no surprise that the Imams of Islam are feeling pressure from the west because of the rigid stranglehold they have placed on their adherents and have called for "Jihad" to protect themselves from the influences of free thought.

[coronalu]

"Not everything that is immoral has to be illegal," said Justice Ministry legal expert Valerian Cioclei. "We cannot help these people by turning them into criminals and punishing them."

What an insane way of reasoning, using this logic, one could absolutely justify the actions of a child molestor. And these are our leaders, our future as a society is just going to the toilet. No wonder our world just keeps getting worse and worse and worse until one day, we begin to look around us and we begin to wonder, just how in the world did things get to the way they are now. We have gotten to the point that whatever it is that we desire, however immoral it may be, we channel that desire as a right as an American and that we should be able to do whatever it is and if you don't like it, then you are wrong and bad! This is what has destroyed every single society n history, the decline in morals within the society and we are living in it right now. Look at marriage, this is a state, a commitment between a man and a woman, not between two men or two women, yet if you don't agree, you will draw the hate from others and to prove this point, follow the posting regarding my post. I have made a statement for morality here and people will attack it and me for many different reasons, they will call me names and call me crazy and that we are living in the 2st century and you know it is still wrong but you don't want anyone telling you that what you are doing is wrong and is not normal nor moral and so your answer is to kill the messenger. The end of our society is what is ahead of us, we are on the path to living lives that not even animals live, lives that have no borders and the only thing that is important is our desires, however warp they may be. No wonder our children are doing what they are doing today and the kicker is that the reason they are like this, that reason stares in the face each and every time we look in the mirror.

[cb_dragoness]

Consensual incest between adults may be morally wrong, but it it a victimless crime. No one is hurt by it, so the government should not be wasting resources prosecuting it.

HOWEVER, if you conceive a child by incest, now the crime has a victim. You have subjected that child to a significantly increased risk of genetic diseases and less definable genetic problems. I think conceiving a child by incest should be considered child endangerment and be punishable as such.

[DoubleHappiness88]

Alabama has the most Romanian immigrants!
Posted by zorar2

Zorar2, that is SO WRONG! Romanians would improve Alabama*s gene pool.

[DoubleHappiness88]

It is certainly NOT a good thing to have sexual relations with a close relative. Sexual relations between consenting adults are NOT, however, the business of States and
NO LAW WILL PREVENT IT. Governments cannot even repair potholes let alone manage ethical choices over which they have no control.

Laws governing sexual relations between consenting adults are remnants of church law. Religion makes BAD LAW. Government has no business attempting to impose and enforce religious law.

Education is the solution to such social problems. Save your tax dollars. Government is incapable of and should not attempt to enforce morality.

[mitdgreenb]

ew.

[hungry1968-15]

Priests and bishops now have a new place to retire to, where their grandchildren and great-grandchildren can come to visit.

Isn't that lovely.

[dixxson]

The Laws are probably, morally "wrong".
But they may be essential for protecting "Children" and it is against the Laws of
"Nature", Strongly frowned upon in the Animal Kingdom.
So therefore there is very likely extenuating, Long Lasting dangerous Consequences!

[voxpopulus]

"I THINK I JUST SAW RUSH LIMBAUGH ON A FLIGHT TO ROMANIA" Probably visiting his mum and dad.

[ajjaxtheleast]

Still it all comes down to a laying next to a sleeping, surprisingly
not inscrutable entity, breathing in, breathing out,
making all of the sounds and smells of an ,,,
,,OMG,,,of an,, an,,, AN ANIMAL!!

But,,,,,,it's all we have to work with so,,,,

[ajjaxtheleast]

Incestual constraint on versatility,,,French President
Sarkosy's nose is likely the by-product of a long line of
incestually active incestual ancestors.

If any country invented incestuality it was France.

When in Romania do as the Romanians do

just dont return home and introduce your new aunt-lover
within hearing distance of a judge,,,

or your uncle.

[coldreality]

First of all, I have to state that I'm atheist (or agnostic if you want.) Second, I'm neither a liberal, nor a conservative. I just OBSERVE, LEARN, AND THINK. Third, I graduated from the high school where the human biology has been included in the standard curriculum as were physics (all parts), chemistry (organic and non-organic) and math (arithmetic, algebra, geometry and trigonometry).

In today's American and probably some European schools, all those matters and many others are taught in the form of the "science soup", and many of them are just optional. As a result of this "education", even those who graduated FROM UNIVERSITIES have extremely distorted picture of the world and human life: instead of learning to THINK, they and their teachers are much more concerned about that famous "self-esteem problem."

Moral or immoral, legal or illegal, the incest -- if permitted or just practiced -- eventually (and quite fast) would direct the mankind to the DEGENERATION via genetic disorders.

People belonging to the communities and ethnicities that for generations marry only within themselves, already experience all horrible consequences of this practice, including death and genetic diseases I wouldn't wish to anybody who is protecting the incest for any sake, including the LIBERTY.

This is the COLD REALITY, as opposed to the theories, speculations, and mutual labeling.

[zwaggsy]

Just when I thought the EU couldn't get any worse!

Sorry but as bigoted as it is I think that legality or morality don't come into it, there is no place for incest in any civilised society.

[honestabe8]

The question of the matter would be should the "gross" factor be removed?
Posted by debinok1

deb: i would think that removal of the "gross" factor is not a legit responsibilty of government. it would gross me out, even if all my female cousins hadn't turned out unattractive and somewhat bitter.

[debinok1]

Generally speaking, most "incest" does not have two consenting parties. It has one in control and one being controlled, even as adults. When most people look at an immediate family member, even one they may find attractive, there is usually the "gross" factor. I saw a cousin after not seeing him for years, my first instict was to ask who he was, when told he was my cousin the "gross" factor kicked in, yes he had grown into a very attractive man, but that was my cousin who I had grown up with like a brother. I think making it legal takes away the "gross" factor, at least to a point. The question of the matter would be should the "gross" factor be removed?