Gay West Point Grads Form Support Group

"Knights Out" Wants To Foster Atmosphere Of Tolerance, Acceptance At Military Academy

(CBS/AP)  A group of U.S. Military Academy graduates came out of the closet Monday in a bid to overturn the ban on gays in the military and help West Point create an environment of tolerance and acceptance as they educate future officers, reports the Military Times.

The 38-member "Knights Out" contacted the military academy's administration seeking to provide an "open forum" for gay troops and Army leaders, the paper reports.

The Pentagon's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy was instituted after President Bill Clinton tried to lift the ban on gay service members in 1993. It refers to the military practice of not asking recruits their sexual orientation. In turn, service members are banned from saying they are gay or bisexual, engaging in homosexual activity or trying to marry a member of the same sex.

Since it was implemented, 12,500 soldiers have been discharged, according to the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, which has actively lobbied for the law's repeal, reports the paper.

1st Lt. Dan Choi, a National Guardsman and Knights Out member knows the group's public announcement may result in disciplinary action.

“If that’s the repercussion, I’m ready to take it,” he told the paper. “I think it’s more important that I let everybody know that … it is a wrong policy.”

The Army fired 11 soldiers in January for violating "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," according to Rep. Jim Moran.

Moran, D-Va., said he has requested monthly updates from the Pentagon on the impact of the policy until it is repealed. In a statement released last week, Moran said the discharged soldiers included an intelligence collector, a military police officer, four infantry personnel, a health care specialist, a motor-transport operator and a water-treatment specialist.

"How many more good soldiers are we willing to lose due to a bad policy that makes us less safe and secure?" asked Moran, a member of the House panel that oversees military spending.

During the presidential campaign, President Barack Obama said he would work to end the policy, but efforts have taken a back seat to his economic agenda.

Knights Out joins similar groups formed by graduates of the U.S. Naval and Air Force academies. Most of those groups' members are also in the ranks of the Service Academy Gay and Lesbian Alumni social network, reports the paper. Knights Out claims that some active-duty commanders serving in Iraq and Afghanistan are among the network's members.

[rrozsa]

vuenbelvue -

I am liking you more and more.

[rrozsa]

Plus, everyone knows metrosexuals and gay men are the most handsome men on the planet. Not an issue, let's get back to the topic please.
Posted by ldog24 at 3:46 PM : Mar 17, 2009

======

That is true of the men -- they are all about looking good, but when it comes to the women, most of them are just butt-ugly, especially the bull-****$! Yikes!

[cheetah-man7]

I think they're HOT.... I wonder if West Point need shelp giving them their annual physicals? Hmmmm......

Come out, come out...... wherever you are!

LOL

[rrozsa]

Questionews -- you absolutely crack me up! Where you been all this time??

[rrozsa]

davicar2....this is NOT the America that I once knew.....we fought a war and WON on two fronts against major superpowers (Japan and Germany) and today we're having trouble with Iraq and Afganistan. Sad, truly sad.
Posted by ldog24 at 10:51 AM : Mar 17, 2009

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That's because in the America we once knew, we had a backbone, to be able to go and "git 'er done". Now we're afraid that if we show too much force, someone might not like us. Can you see our government having the fortitude to actually drop an A-bomb like we did to bring an end to WW II? No friggin way it could happen today. As a result, the war drags on and on and causes many more casualties in the long-run.
It makes me sick.

[rrozsa]

Posted by Questionews at 10:32 AM : Mar 17, 2009

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LMAO

[rrozsa]

G a y s need to know that nobody really cares until they start broadcasting it to everyone. Then your average person tends to get a little pissed since it is a concept we prefer not to think about at all. Leave it at home where it belongs
Posted by anti-global at 9:19 AM : Mar 17, 2009

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The problem is, when you have a ship full of gay and straight men bunking together, at sea for months on end, the subject is bound to eventually surface, because someone is going to make a pass at someone else. Same thing that would happen if you have men and women bunking and showering together.

[usmagrad87]

Are you ready to hear from an actual member of KnightsOut and to hear my story? First of all I went to West Point and served my time prior to Don't Ask, Don't Tell. I grew up on a farm outside a small town in Southwest Colorado in an devoutly religious family and had no concept of what being gay meant. I had a couple of girlfriends but did not have sex with anyone due to my religious beliefs or so I thought a the time. I had the highest grade point average of my fellow 21 graduates of my public high school, received 10 varsity letters in sports (3 football, 3 basketball, and 4 in track), 2 years editor of school newspaper and yearbook, 4 years photographer for school newspaper and yearbook and class president.

Back then on my first day at West Point they did ask on a form if I was a homosexual but in all honesty said no. It was not until my junior and senior year of West Point that I started to begin to understand what being gay meant and started to question my sexuality and my faith. As for my moral judgement my Senior year West Point judged my moral judgement to be good enough to help instruct the incoming freshmen on the Cadet Honor code. "A cadet will not lie, cheat, or steal nor tolerate those who do."

In my military career I was very successful as I was immediately given a scout platoon as a 2LT in a divisional calvary squadron and then moved to the critical position of support platoon leader which is very unusual for a young officer. After being promoted to 1LT and while preparing for the Armor Officer Advance course my transfer from Germany was frozen due to the Persian Gulf War. I was offered an opportunity to volunteer to join another unit from Germany who was going to fight in the war and accepted.

I serve with distinction but after the fighting was over I confessed to someone that i trusted that I realized that I was gay. One month later I was found out I was being investigated by the criminal investigation division of the military police. I confessed at that time that I was gay. I was actually asked by the deputy Brigade commander a fellow West Point Graduate why I confess and I responded that I was tired of hiding the fact that I was gay. This was the first time that anyone had actually asked me if I was gay. Both the Brigade Commander and Deputy Brigade Commander, West Point graduates, wrote letters recommending that I be given a honorable discharge but the Division commander gave the recommendation that I be given an other than honorable discharge. One step above than a dishonorable discharge and loss of most military benefits.

Since that time I have come to realize that I was born gay and there was never a choice in that matter, no matter how much fundamentalist christians, including myself at one time, that it is choice and though faith I can be "healed". I have since had a very successful career in business and recently told my story to a historian who was interviewing other Gay and Lesbian veterans and printed my story and others story in a book called Ask and Tell. For those people who are interested in finding out more about these remarkable veterans you can purchase this book at Amazon.com or Barnes and Noble.

[cheetah-man7]

Aziridine---Your comments are offensive and assinine.Your neanderthal approach to this issue is shortsighted and belies a deep seeded and quite possibly pathological degree of sociopathy.

You are to be pitied.

Posted by mensarino
______________________________
Agreed! But, I would also add that it is very likely that he is also a closet case homosexual himself. Folks who froth at the mouth over this stuff are almost always hiding something about themselves. I bet he looks great in a Summery frock!

[cheetah-man7]

Aziridine---Your comments are offensive and assinine.Your neanderthal approach to this issue is shortsighted and belies a deep seeded and quite possibly pathological degree of sociopathy.

You are to be pitied.

Posted by mensarino
______________________________
Agreed! But, I would also add that it is very likely that he is also a closet case homosexual himself. Folks who froth at the mouth over this stuff are almost always hiding something about themselves. I bet he looks great in a Summery frock!

[mensarino]

Aziridine---Your comments are offensive and assinine.Your neanderthal approach to this issue is shortsighted and belies a deep seeded and quite possibly pathological degree of sociopathy.
You are to be pitied.

[aziridine]

The proper thing to do Caeric is to go where you are wanted rather than forcing yourself where you are not wanted. That way everyone has freedom from that which they find repugnant. You could work in a very nice flower shop or perhaps a for an interior decorator. You and your friends could have fun giggling and calling each other "Oh...Silly"....I mean "Thilly" and have a great time free from all the disapproval. Instead Caeric, you have chosen to go where youaren't wnated and were you KNEW you weren't wanted to begin with. You have nobody to blame but yourself and you have disrespected the rights of those you disgust to not associate with you.

[aziridine]

The solution to this whole mess is simple. If you are a Crip, don't go wandering in Blood turf. If you are are an Evangelist don't go to ***********.....AND, if you are Kweer don't join the military. This is just simple common sense. What we are seeing is people placing themselves in situations were they are not welcome for the sole purpose of being able to COMPLAIN. It goes hand in hand with the everybody's a victim strategy.

If these folks are so intent on being kweer they could just as easily have gone to U of San Francisco. Instead they set out to intrude where they weren't wanted for te sole purpose of causing trouble.

Hopefully, fellow Academy members will remember this affront when these soldiers come under hostile fire. All this for a few minutes of "Milk-dom".

Maybe the Marines could change their motto to "Semper Guy" to accommodate these few disgruntled grunts.

[caeric]

You are correct, there are many types of discrimination. I won't say that it was easy for you. I am from a small southern town. I know how we viewed outsiders. I also know how "we" viewed homosexuals. Being an outsider can be very difficult, and I certainly won't belittle that. I'm sorry that it was so difficult for you.

At the same time, being homosexual can get you killed.

Coming from that atmosphere, I can say that being homosexual makes it much more difficult, if one is open about who they are. The other option, the path of safety, is in hiding that part of yourself. Having to do so (and I stress *having* to do so) becomes so much a part of who someone is that it is difficult to even think about being open about it. It is not about lying, it is about survival. Emotional, personal, physical survival.

Being homosexual is not a choice. In many cases, having to hide as best one can is not a choice either. It is unfortunate that our society forces such things.

I look forward to the day when it won't matter, when these discussions don't happen because EVERYONE in this nation is free and equal, and there is no need.

[vuenbelvue]

I should have added in discrimination.

Go thru public schools in a southern town with their parents, mother and father, united in the aftermath of WWII from two different countries with wierd last names in a town where if you don't have three generations in the grave yard who aren't from there. Always being asked "your last name is what?
Your father is also retired military so you aren't really from there at all. A father saying" My daughter doesn't go out with a date wearing blue jeans". But he really doesn't want a retired military kid dating his daughter. Or a mother saying " I need to do a D&B on you before you ask my daughter out. Oh, your parent's are divorced? Your mother was from "Germany"? Ahhh. Yea!!
How about "you really need to do vocational training and disregard college because of a lack of family members in management around here" or "having a Manager tell you that the other candidates seem to have a edge because their parents had a higher economic standing than mine.
Losing a job interviewer's second look because of a last name. Having a company promote over you because of color or sex. Then age. Not being hired because you are not married or are married and have or not have a son. It's tuff out there for everyone.
It's not easy for most of us. I've seen a lot and being gay would probably not have changed any of this from happening to me. There are many types of discrimation.

[caeric]

You being hired or not hired during that time and for/not for the reasons mentioned has absolutely no bearing on the immediate conversation. The instance to which I referred does have a direct bearing, otherwise I would not have mentioned it. My life was negatively impacted due to this inane policy.

Point of fact, I did not assume the reason I did not get the position was because of my lack of military experience (which was a direct result of my choosing to not enter the military for the reason being discussed), I was directly and explicitly told such by a person with whom I had numerous conversations during that time and who was in a position to know.

"So please"? That's a nice tone. If the examples of discrimination you provided are the best you can do, I still say you know absolutely nothing about real discrimination. You have not experienced it.

I never asked you to care about my orientation, and I have never asked anyone to apologize for their opinion. I was simply making the point that this issue is not as cut and dry, black-and-white as you appear to believe it to be. There is much more to a person than the answer to an invasive insidious little question.

You are welcome to believe otherwise. However, there is not a single person on this earth who can live up to that expectation.

[vuenbelvue]

Caeric
I came back from Viet Nam and jumped immediately into college and graduated 4 years later in 1975. I interviewed maybe 80 companies before I was hired. There was a recession and the Stock Market was at 750. I was not hired because the government said industry needed a black or a black male or a female and points for a vet, who also had a Purple Heart, and was a black male or female. I was not hired sometimes because I was a Vet, blood thirsty woman killing, ear cutting off infantry vet.
I know a little bit about discrimination because my parents were not born in that town and my father was a Yankee. So please.
I don't care your orientation and I never said I did. I said the U S Officer's Corp is made up of a high calling and someone who would improperly approve a government form is not of that character.
I apologize to no one for that opinion.

Jack
VFW 1970

[caeric]

You have obviously never experienced this type of systemic and pervasive discrimination/hatred/bigotry. If you had you could understand how the answer provided to such a question has no relation to the individual who, in every other aspect, perfectly fits the expected model. In this case, it is the question itself that is suspect, not the answers provided.

That said, even after being heavily recruited by the military, and wanting to serve, I ultimately chose not to do so. I refused to hide who I am. Was that fair to me? I was denied a chance to serve, something I very much wanted to do, due to something that is not my choice and is not the business of the government or the military. Something that would have no direct impact or bearing on my ability to serve.

As a direct result of this unfair treatment, I later came in second in another government position behind someone solely because that person had military experience. I was told that if I had military experience I would have been chosen instead, but that they had to give preference to someone with military experience... experience I could have had if I had but lied earlier in life. Was that fair to me?

What's the higher road? Dishonesty on ONE question that should never have been asked on a subject that matters not at all, or a lifetime of missed opportunities because of prejudice that should not exist?

You say it points to the moral character of the individual. I say that the greater moral travesty is the discrimination on the part of the government and the resulting impact on individuals.

[vuenbelvue]

Let's keep this real simple. If you lie on a application you are dishonest. You are now a lier and not to be trusted. What part of this is hard to understand? 1 of 3 familes in the United States is a victim of this economy going south. It is beacuse many people lied about income, assets, number of dependents, whatever.
The applicants that lied on their applications to a military academy cut another applicant out of his dream. They are liers and not civil rights heroes. Change the system another way but don't lie and take the entire system down. What can be so hard about that
concept?

[mensarino]

Hey beautiful view---First,I am straight so don't imagine that all straights buy into your bigotry.
Secondly---If you weren't so lazy you could google gay veterans groups and discover that there are any number of gay vets out there.
Finally,no wonder gays may keep it under wraps considering there are people like you out there.
I am of your vintage and I,too, lived through the Vietnam war era.In those days,if you wanted to get out of the draft you could check a box and say you were gay.Many did this and were laughed at and told"we don't care, you're going to Nam."