NTSB Warned FAA For Years About Ice

Recently Repeated Call For Revising Turboprop De-Icing Regulations "Before Another Accident Or Serious Incident Occurs"

(CBS/AP)  Investigators began gathering pieces of the incinerated wreckage of a commuter airliner early Saturday in search of clues to the cause of the fiery crash that killed 50 people.

Investigators have been examining instrument data and have listened to the last words of the pilot and co-pilot of Flight 3407 in an effort to determine if ice on the plane's wings caused the crash.

Meanwhile, workers have begun the somber task of removing the remains of the victims from the crash site.

Recovering the remains could take several days, said National Transportation Safety Board member Steve Chealander. "We're very sensitive to the families," he said.

The deadly accident comes just four months after the NTSB renewed its call for the Federal Aviation Authority to revise its regulations concerning deicing turboprop airplanes, accusing the FAA of complacency.

Officials say the crew of the Continental Connection flight remarked upon significant ice buildup on the wings and windshield shortly before the aircraft pitched violently and slammed into a house Thursday night.

Ice on the wings can interfere catastrophically with an aircraft's handling and has been blamed for a number of major air disasters over the years, but officials said they had drawn no conclusions as to the cause of this crash.

Chealander told CBS Early Show anchor Chris Wragge that while the flight recorders reveal the pilot had discussed "significant" accumulation of ice on the leading edge of the wings and the windshield, "That's not the only focus of the investigation. Yes, icing is a focus, but there are a number of other things.

"The phased approach of this investigation will see us through many channels over the next several months as we look at all aspects of the flight."

Chealander said the cockpit voice recorder is at the NTSB laboratory in Washington, D.C.

"Our technicians are continuing to audition that cockpit voice recorder, but they haven't indicated anything to me yet that there was any mayday call or distress by the crew," he told Wragge.

The landing gear was lowered one minute before the end of the flight at an altitude of more than 2,000 feet, and 20 seconds later the wing flaps were set to slow the plane down, after which the aircraft went through "severe pitch and roll," Chealander said.

The crew raised the landing gear at the last moment, just before the recording ran out. No mayday call came from the pilot.

The plane's system of deicing boots (pneumatic instruments on wings to remove ice) and heated propellors was switched on, Chealander said, but that the investigation will look into whether the system was working properly.

Ice buildup is one of a pilot's worst enemies.

"What ice does, it disrupts the air flow of the wing," former NTSB managing director Peter Goelz told CBS News, "and if you lose your lift on your wing, you're not flying."

Chealander said the NTSB has been pressing for more regulations to improve deicing.

"We don't like the progress that's taken place right now," Chealander said. "It's something that requires constant focus."

He said the NTSB had made recommendations "for several years."

A similar turboprop jet crash 15 years ago in Indiana was caused by ice, and after that the NTSB recommended more aggressively using pneumatic de-icing boots.

In 1999 the NTSB blasted the FAA for failing to establish safety procedures for operating in icing conditions.

Last October, the NTSB renewed its criticism of the FAA over what it termed the agency's "unacceptably slow" pace in revising its recommended deicing procedures. In a blistering release it accused the FAA of complacency:

"The FAA has stated that no unsafe conditions exist that warrant actions beyond those that have already been completed or are in the process of being completed. The Board is concerned that the FAA has reached this conclusion based on a lack of accidents or serious incidents. During the 1990s, a number of accidents occurred involving airplanes that had passed the certification standards and for which the FAA believed there was no unsafe condition requiring action. Before another accident or serious incident occurs, the FAA should evaluate all existing turbo propeller-driven airplanes in service using the new information available, such as critical ice shapes and stall warning margins in icing conditions."

In general, smaller planes like the Dash 8, which uses a system of pneumatic de-icing boots, are more susceptible to ice buildup than larger commuter planes that use a heating system to warm the wings. The boots, a rubber membrane stretched over the surface, are filled with compressed air to crack any ice that builds up.

The aircraft, bound to Buffalo from Newark, N.J., went down in light snow and mist - ideal icing conditions - about six miles short of the airport, plunging nose-first through the roof of a house in the suburb of Clarence.

All 44 passengers, four crew members, an off-duty pilot and one person on the ground were killed. Two others escaped from the home, which was engulfed in a fireball that burned for hours, making it too hot to begin removing the bodies until around nightfall Friday.

William Voss, a former official of the Federal Aviation Administration and current president of the Flight Safety Foundation, a nonprofit advocacy group, said the plane's near-vertical drop suggests that ice or a mechanical failure, such as wing flaps deploying asymmetrically or the two engines putting out unequal thrust, was the cause.

After the crash, at least two pilots were heard on air traffic control circuits saying they had been picking up ice on their wings.

The 74-seat Q400 Bombardier aircraft, in the Dash 8 family of planes, was operated by Colgan Air, based in Manassas, Va. Colgan's parent company, Pinnacle Airlines of Memphis, Tenn., said the plane was new and had a clean safety record.

The pilot, Capt. Marvin Renslow, had been with the airline for nearly 3½ years and had more than 3,000 hours of flying experience with Colgan, which is nearly the maximum a pilot can fly over that period of time under government regulations.

It was the first fatal crash of a commercial airliner in the United States since Aug. 27, 2006, when 49 people were killed when a Comair airliner mistakenly took off from a Lexington, Ky., runway that was too short.

[D-Melter]

In-Flight De-icing or Anti-icingshould or should I say has to be BROUGHT INTO THE 21st CENTURY

NTI NEWMERICAL is a small but very PERTINENT company which may be INTEGRAL in making that happen....

[rwsmith29456]

Now I remember this icing thing coming up some years back and them saying something had to be done about it.

[petemac6]

http://www.part135.com/TailplaneIcing.html

[samthetvcat]

---"Last October, the NTSB renewed its criticism of the FAA over what it termed the agency''s "unacceptably slow" pace in revising its recommended deicing procedures. In a blistering release it accused the FAA of complacency"---

This could be a red herring because if the more stringent testing requirements had been adopted, this plane might still have passed the test. And the boots were deployed as per the more stringent recommendations.

I wonder if flying safety is a lot like driving safety, where inclement weather poses a greater risk of having an accident (icing), the type of vehicle you''re driving can be more or less safe than others, the ice/show removal features work better on some than others, etc. But where it might also matter statistically speaking if people have less than 5 years experience (the pilot), being under the age of 25 (the co-pilot), driving in the dark, driving late at night, having been driving for many hours, having been driving many hours that week, driver ability, etc.

It''ll be interesting to hear whether if those more stringent criteria had been adopted this plane design would have passed the test because then what''s the new lesson to be learned about icing?

[greybeardvet]

Fifty more American deaths that we can lay at the doorsteps of the rodent that just left the White House. Obviously the climate of deregulation that contributed to this tragedy goes back beyond Bush, but clearly there is a heavy load of culpability here for the neo-cons who fought every attempt to civilize our market economy.

Incidentally, these Republican pigs deserve a fair share of the blame for the deaths caused by the peanut salmonella outbreak. The reason that guy had a toxic plant was because the Bush Bums refused to oversee his operation.

[ptyoungthang]

Senator McCain and fellow republicans wrote letters and pointed out the pending problems with Fannie and Freddie earlier this decade and as usual Barney Frank and his friends poo pooed them and called them racists.

NTSB warned FAA and you liberals are all over it.

McCain warned Congress and you liberals ran from him. You liberals deserve what you get.


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Posted by IndependentI at 11:35 AM : Feb 15, 2009



So indepitiful...Why didnt your president do something about it? You are on the wrong article moron. This article is about the poor souls lost in a plane cras - and bipartisan fighting is all you can think about . No wonder repugs are out of power.

[inhaled_not]

You mean Ice makes airplanes crash??..Huh..I never made the connection..lol

[evian_ycnan]

The FAA uses a "blood on the runway" approach to regulation. There has to be a demonstrated need for the airlines to spend money in the interest of flight safety and there has to be 100s killed before the FAA would EVER consider reviewing an air-worthiness certification

[omnibus66]

''The NTSB renewed its call for the Federal Aviation Authority to revise its regulations concerning deicing turboprop airplanes, accusing the FAA of complacency.''

But be sure to strip search the 90 year old woman in the wheelchair, because she might be a terrorist.

[donevis-2009]

know, it was Bush''''s fault when he was governor of Texas. Right!


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Posted by IndependentI at 10:23 PM : Feb 14, 2009

Indep, Your a plant on this blog. Go sing your BS on WTOP. Lotta people just like you that will appreciate your swill.

[donevis-2009]

Well here we go people, a statement From Beverly Eckert. RIP

My Silence Cannot Be Bought
USA Today - Friday, December 19, 2003

I''''''''ve chosen to go to court rather than accept a payoff from the 9/11 victims compensation fund. Instead, I want to know what went so wrong with our intelligence and security systems that a band of religious fanatics was able to turn four U.S passenger jets into an enemy force, attack our cities and kill 3,000 civilians with terrifying ease. I want to know why two 110-story skyscrapers collapsed in less than two hours and why escape and rescue options were so limited.

I am suing because unlike other investigative avenues, including congressional hearings and the 9/11 commission, my lawsuit requires all testimony be given under oath and fully uses powers to compel evidence.

[donevis-2009]

The answers are being disquised. If the New style de-icer system on this new plane failed, then who ordered the sabotage? One in a million odds for that system to fail, happening to the flight a person who was heading to court suing the government for answers on 9/11 questions, PRICELESS.

[toolmangler-2009]

"In general, smaller planes like the Dash 8, which uses a system of pneumatic de-icing boots, are more susceptible to ice buildup than larger commuter planes that use a heating system to warm the wings. The boots, a rubber membrane stretched over the surface, are filled with compressed air to crack any ice that builds up."




My problem with ''de-icing'' boots is that they change the chord of the wing when inflated, Factor in Ice buildup, Flaps down and wheels coming down in Icing conditions, then add one wing not unloading its share of ice when the boots inflate and ''Voila'' instant snap-roll into the ground at 220 mph. No wonder the cockpit was quiet on the tapes in the ''Black boxes''. they didn''t have a clue...

[crzmeat1]

They knew the problem and let it slide why {?} palms were greased favors were called in they thought they could get away with it like any job. Were seeing how politics at work with Obama I''m a victum of CETA the same thing new name 2 years fair money than back to square one. All about cash looking good but in the end littleor no help.
.

[toolmangler-2009]

Posted by rudedogrulz at 07:55 PM : Feb 14, 2009




My intention was to highlight the tendancy to ''rely'' on technology. not to imply that it couldn''t work. It is at best, a backup to help the flight crew. any further ''reliance'' is very unwise. I am a techie myself and understand the ''beastie'' too well.

[toolmangler-2009]

To be fair to the design, however, it is possible the Dash 8 did pass certification on the power of one engine, although that is unlikely. Few, if any twin-engines can survive a takeoff on one engine, fully-loaded.
Posted by alphaa10000 at 07:47 PM : Feb 14, 2009




I beg to differ, that is a ''requirment'' for certification. I would not get in one (twin) that couldn''t take off (fully loaded) on one engine

[toolmangler-2009]

"This Aircraft is the epitome of modern flying technology. It is flown completely by computer control. Computers operate one hundred times faster than the human brain. there is absolutely no way anything can go wrong,,,,go wrong,,,,go wrong,,,,,,go wro............."

[irmcvet971]

Most larger commercial aircraft in operation with the exception of the DC-9 do not even have tail de-icing systems..

Posted by rudedogrulz at 06:50 PM : Feb 14, 2009

Why? ALL Commercial Aircraft SHOULD have the best equipment available. THOSE are American Citizens in those Airplanes and THAT is why we created the FAA to begin with!

[irmcvet971]

This has got to be the MOST idiotic statement! It should be common sense that when ice builds on the wings the aircraft LOSES lift! If this is such an issue as to warn another agency of the hazards associated with ICE BUILD UP why is it aircraft MUST DE-ICE in snowy conditions prior to take-off??? This is NOT a secret.

Posted by swingset4u at 06:39 PM : Feb 14, 2009

Duh?? Who has the authority to ORDER Corporation''s to INSTALL the most UP TO DATE equipment? Who has the Authority to ALTER Requirements on when a Corporation can or can NOT fly! What grade are you in? Honestly... that is the most UNEDUCATED response I''ve EVER seen!

[irmcvet971]

I would to caution everyone not to make hasty judgements about this crash..Many times in the past, seeral things were speculated to be the "cause" and later dispelled after all the facts were gathered. The media outlets have a way of sensationalizing these kind of events and early reporting on speculation oftern turns out NOT to be the cause..

Posted by rudedogrulz at 06:13 PM : Feb 14, 2009

What are you saying?? That''s simply INSANE!! Regardless IF the issue is ICE, the FACT is there as big as it can get. The FAA was TOLD of a MAJOR SAFETY PROBLEM, for YEARS and did NOTHING! Good grief!!