Two People Dead In Toys "R" Us Shooting

Two Men Armed With Handguns Started Shooting At Each Other In Crowded Calif. Toy Store

(CBS/AP)  Two people are dead in a Black Friday shooting at a crowded Toys "R" Us in Palm Desert, Calif.

City Councilman Jim Ferguson says police have told him that the victims were two men with handguns who shot each other.

The councilman says his question is: who takes a loaded gun into a toy store. And his answer is: "I doubt it was the casual holiday shopper." Authorities are still investigating but indicate the shooting may have been gang related.

One woman says she was in the store looking at coloring books with her two young boys when there was a commotion in the next aisle. She thought it was a scramble for a sale, then heard gunshots. She says her four-year-old grabbed her leg and said he didn't want to die.

The violence erupted on the traditional post-Thanksgiving start of the holiday shopping surge, but accounts of what occurred inside the store were fragmentary or second hand and it was not clear whether it involved any shopping frenzy.

The Palm Desert Police Department received calls of shots fired around 11:35 a.m., Riverside County sheriff's Sgt. Dennis Gutierrez said. He said officers were still investigating what prompted the gunshots.

Immediately after the shooting, about 20 people rushed into the World Gym across the street from Toys "R" Us, the gym's assistant manager Glenn Splain told The Associated Press in a telephone interview.

"They were crying, tearing and shaking," Splain said, adding that one woman came in cradling a baby.

"Some people got into a fight," said Splain, who spoke with some of the customers. "One of the guys here thought it was over a toy, but it got louder and louder and then there were gunshots."

Sarah Pacia of Cathedral City told The Desert Sun newspaper she was in the store with her two boys, ages 4 and 6, looking at coloring books when she heard a commotion in the next aisle. She thought it was people rushing to get a sale item. Then she heard three or four shots.

She said she froze, and store employees calmly escorted her out of the store.

"This is Toys "R" Us. There are kids shopping in there," Pacia said. Her son Jayden, 4, was clinging to her leg. He told her he didn't want to die, she said.

Toys "R" Us officials did not immediately return calls seeking comment.

Palm Desert is about 120 miles east of Los Angeles.

[mgpm-2009]

Oh yeah. We all need as many guns as possible. *rolls eys*

[hamiltongrad]

IT is not guns to blame, but a low class underclass that is violent, without any regard for other people. As a sidebar, how about running something on violence crimes and gangs.

[swingset4u]

Gotta be two black men... Drug deal gone bad in a Toys-"R"-Us store. MY GOD!

[swingset4u]

Wait a minute, my bad.. This did happen isn California. Let me throw hispanic men in to the equation...

[bobgee_1999]

Who cares? The gunmen killed EACH OTHER, and no bystanders. I''d say that''s best case scenario. Interesting note: regardless of who started it and what the fight was about BOTH are dead. Guess the old surrogate *** didn''t work very well as personal protection, now did it?

[toolmangler-2009]

which is worse, being shot to death (Toys''r''us) or being trampled to death (Walmart). I think I will choose the gun every time. (If I have to choose)

[truthrocks1]

Guns used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year -- or about 6,850 times a day.1 This means that each year, firearms are used more than 60 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.2

* Anti-gun Clinton researchers find an annual total of 1.5 million self-defense cases. According to the Clinton Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of self-defense every year. The National Institute of Justice published this figure in 1997 as part of "Guns in America" -- a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig.3

* Concealed carry laws have dropped murder and crime rates in the states that have enacted them. According to a comprehensive study which studied crime statistics in all of the counties in the United States from 1977 to 1992, states which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%.4

[truthrocks1]

* Anti-gun journal pronounces the failure of the Brady law. One of the nation''s leading anti-gun medical publications, the Journal of the American Medical Association, found that the Brady registration law has failed to reduce murder rates. In August 2000, JAMA reported that states implementing waiting periods and background checks did "not [experience] reductions in homicide rates or overall suicide rates."5

* More children are killed playing football in school than they are by guns. That''s right. Despite what media coverage might seem to indicate, more children die playing high school football, than they do by firearms at school. The most recent year on record shows that 18 football players died during the school year ending in June, 2000 (from hits to the head, heat stroke, etc.), as compared with 9 students by firearms.6

[truthrocks1]

A. Guns save more lives than they take; prevent more injuries than they inflict

* Guns used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year -- or about 6,850 times a day.7 This means that each year, firearms are used more than 60 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.8

* Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns to defend themselves every year, the overwhelming majority merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers. Less than 8% of the time, a citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker.9

* As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse.10

[truthrocks1]

* Armed citizens kill more crooks than do the police. Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year (1,527 to 606).12 And readers of Newsweek learned that "only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The ''error rate'' for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high."13

* Handguns are the weapon of choice for self-defense. Citizens use handguns to protect themselves over 1.9 million times a year.14 Many of these self-defense handguns could be labeled as "Saturday Night Specials."

B. Concealed carry laws help reduce crime

* Nationwide: one-half million self-defense uses. Every year, as many as one-half million citizens defend themselves with a firearm away from home.15

[deckardbr]

"Who takes a loaded gun into a toy store?"

Why would you take an unloaded gun into a toy store?"

[messiahx4eve]

They are us and we are them, fitting epitah for the all mighty dollar, yes? There is no god involved in this because this h3ll is our nifty, streamlined, organized, structured own private H3ll of human design.

[truthrocks1]

Concealed carry laws are dropping crime rates across the country. A comprehensive national study determined in 1996 that violent crime fell after states made it legal to carry concealed firearms. The results of the study showed:

* States which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%;16 and
* If those states not having concealed carry laws had adopted such laws in 1992, then approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and over 11,000 robberies would have been avoided yearly.17
* Vermont: one of the safest five states in the country. In Vermont, citizens can carry a firearm without getting permission... without paying a fee... or without going through any kind of government-imposed waiting period. And yet for seven years in a row, Vermont has remained one of the safest states in the union -- having twice received the "Safest State Award."18



* Concealed Carry v. Waiting Period Laws. In 1976, both Georgia and Wisconsin tried two different approaches to fighting crime. Georgia enacted legislation making it easier for citizens to carry guns for self-defense, while Wisconsin passed a law requiring a 48 hour waiting period before the purchase of a handgun. What resulted during the ensuing years? Georgia''s law served as a deterrent to criminals and helped drop its homicide rate by 21 percent. Wisconsin''s murder rate, however, rose 33 percent during the same period.22

[truthrocks1]

Criminals avoid armed citizens

* Kennesaw, GA. In 1982, this suburb of Atlanta passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate subsequently dropped 89% in Kennesaw, compared to the modest 10.4% drop in Georgia as a whole.23

* Ten years later (1991), the residential burglary rate in Kennesaw was still 72% lower than it had been in 1981, before the law was passed.24

* Nationwide. Statistical comparisons with other countries show that burglars in the United States are far less apt to enter an occupied home than their foreign counterparts who live in countries where fewer civilians own firearms. Consider the following rates showing how often a homeowner is present when a burglar strikes:

Rapes averted when women carry or use firearms for protection

* Orlando, FL. In 1966-67, the media highly publicized a safety course which taught Orlando women how to use guns. The result: Orlando''s rape rate dropped 88% in 1967, whereas the rape rate remained constant in the rest of Florida and the nation.26
* Nationwide. In 1979, the Carter Justice Department found that of more than 32,000 attempted rapes, 32% were actually committed. But when a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of the attempted rapes were actually successful.27

[truthrocks1]

Criminals avoid armed citizens

* Kennesaw, GA. In 1982, this suburb of Atlanta passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate subsequently dropped 89% in Kennesaw, compared to the modest 10.4% drop in Georgia as a whole.23

* Ten years later (1991), the residential burglary rate in Kennesaw was still 72% lower than it had been in 1981, before the law was passed.24



* Orlando, FL. In 1966-67, the media highly publicized a safety course which taught Orlando women how to use guns. The result: Orlando''s rape rate dropped 88% in 1967, whereas the rape rate remained constant in the rest of Florida and the nation.26
* Nationwide. In 1979, the Carter Justice Department found that of more than 32,000 attempted rapes, 32% were actually committed. But when a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of the attempted rapes were actually successful.27

[truthrocks1]

Justice Department study:

* 3/5 of felons polled agreed that "a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun."28
* 74% of felons polled agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."29
* 57% of felons polled agreed that "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."30

[truthrocks1]

Washington, D.C. has, perhaps, the most restrictive gun control laws in the country, and yet it has one of the highest murder rates in the nation.

* Objection: Critics claim criminals merely get their guns in Virginia where the laws are more relaxed. This, they argue, is why the D.C. gun ban is not working.

* Answer: Perhaps criminals do get their guns in Virginia, but this overlooks one point: If the availability of guns in Virginia is the root of D.C.''s problems, why does Virginia not have the same murder and crime rate as the District? Virginia is awash in guns and yet the murder rate is much, much lower. This holds true even for Virginia''s urban areas. The murder rates are:

City 1999 Murder rate
Washington, DC 46.4 per 100,00035
Arlington, VA 2.1 per 100,00036
(Arlington is just across the river from D.C.)
Total VA metropolitan area 6.1 per 100,00037

* Guns are not the problem. On the contrary, lax criminal penalties and laws that disarm the law-abiding are responsible for giving criminals a safer working environment.

[truthrocks1]

Dr. Gary Kleck. A criminologist at Florida State University, Kleck began his research as a firm believer in gun control. But in a speech delivered to the National Research Council, he said while he was once "a believer in the ''anti-gun'' thesis," he has now moved "beyond even the skeptic position." Dr. Kleck now says the evidence "indicates that general gun availability does not measurably increase rates of homicide, suicide, robbery, assault, rape, or burglary in the U.S."38

* James Wright. Formerly a gun control advocate, Wright received a grant from President Carter''s Justice Department to study the effectiveness of gun control laws. To his surprise, he found that waiting periods, background checks, and all other gun control laws were not effective in reducing violent crime.39

* Wright says at one time, "It seemed evident to me, we needed to mount a campaign to resolve the crisis of handgun proliferation." But he says, "I am now of the opinion that a compelling case for ''stricter gun control'' cannot be made."40

[dodee1221]

Bigots who post the outrageous comments such as the ones in this blog are the very people who, with their insidious belief systems incite this type of violence. It''s a shame they are far too unintelligent to realize this. Yes, this is directed to you:

HamiltonGrad (it just goes to show that if this user name is for real and they are a Harvard graduate that an education means nothing if you are inherently stupid).

Swingset4u: I would venture to guess that you have ancestry somewhere outside the racial ideals you seem to hold yourself above others for (where do you come from and who raised you?)

Some people''s stupidity is astounding...

[dodee1221]

Bigots who post the outrageous comments such as the ones in this blog are the very people who, with their insidious belief systems incite this type of violence. It''s a shame they are far too unintelligent to realize this. Yes, this is directed to you:

HamiltonGrad (it just goes to show that if this user name is for real and they are a Harvard graduate that an education means nothing if you are inherently stupid).

Swingset4u: I would venture to guess that you have ancestry somewhere outside the racial ideals you seem to hold yourself above others for (where do you come from and who raised you?)

Some people''s stupidity is astounding...

[truthrocks1]

Children Accidental Death Rates (Ages 0-14)
Cause Number
Motor-vehicle 2,900
Drowning 965
Fires, burns 676
Mechanical suffocation 474
Ingestion of food, object 185
Firearms 142
Source: Figures are for 1997. National Safety Council, Accident Facts: 2000 Edition, at 10, 11, 18.

[truthrocks1]

Women and Guns

* At least 17 million women own firearms in the United States.123 And according to the National Research Opinion Center, 44 percent of adult women either own or have access to firearms.124

* As many as 561 times a day, women use guns to protect themselves against sexual assault.125

* In 89.6% of violent crimes directed against women, the offender does not have a gun; and only 10% of rapists carry a firearm.126 Thus, armed women will usually have a decided advantage against their attackers.

* A man can kill a woman with whatever he has at hand, but she can usually only resist him successfully with a gun. Don Kates, a civil rights attorney who specializes in firearms issues, cites a Detroit study showing that three-quarters of wives who killed their spouses were not even charged, since prosecutors found their acts necessary to protect their lives or their children''s lives.127

[truthrocks1]

Gun Control has reduced the crime rates in other countries.

1. England and Canada''s murder rates were ALREADY LOW BEFORE enacting gun control. Thus, their restrictive laws cannot be credited with lowering their crime rates.132
2. The murder rates in England, Canada and Japan have risen tremendously since passing their gun control laws.133 And most crime rates in England have now surpassed the rates in the U.S.:
* In 1998, a study conducted by a British professor and a U.S. statistician found that most crime is now worse in England than in the United States. "You are more likely to be mugged in England than in the United States," stated the Reuters news agency in summarizing the study that was published by the U.S. Justice Department (DOJ). "The rate of robbery is now 1.4 times higher in England and Wales than in the United States, and the British burglary rate is nearly double America''s."134
* The murder rate in the United States is higher than in England, but according to the DOJ study, "the difference between the [murder rates in the] two countries has narrowed over the past 16 years."135

[rev_miesse]

I do sincerely hope all this wasn''t over the last singing Elmo in the store.

[caligola-2009]

I defend the right of Truthrocks1 to carry, show, shoot, play with his handgun.

Only a maniac could collect such amount of nonsense statistics.
SO, I AM WITH YOU, only.... please don''t leave your State!

[truthrocks1]

I defend the right of Truthrocks1 to carry, show, shoot, play with his handgun.

Only a maniac could collect such amount of nonsense statistics.
SO, I AM WITH YOU, only.... please don''''t leave your State!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by Caligola





These stats were actually collected by anti-gun groups (who DID NOT PUBLISH for obvious reasons) and the US DOJ.

And I thank you for defending my 2nd Amendment rights. I will also defend not only YOUR 2nd Amend rights, but all of the rights guarnteed to us in the US Constitution.

Thank you:0)

[rushlimbaug4]

The councilman says his question is: "who takes a loaded gun into a toy store."

I will tell you who, A PATRIOT!! Someone who needs to defend themselves from danger and a gun lover!!! There is nothing wrong with bringing a gun into a toy store!!!

LIBZZ!!!!

[centerfall94]

"City Councilman Jim Ferguson says police have told him that the victims were two men with handguns who shot each other. "

Hey, as long as it works out like this - the gun nuts kill each other but nobody else - I''m okey dokey fine with it.

[caligola-2009]

If they let me give my vote, I''ll take care of asking for the right to feel safe, unarmed, in a society where the right is defended by law, NOT the guy bigger than me or the one has a gun more powerful than mine.....
I want to live in a Country where Social Status is defended by the government I choose.
Not where a 10 years thought to shoot and dies in an accident. In my stupid dream, 10 years old boys should at most playing with toys, NOY real guns. Only MANIACS think like that.
HOLD A MOMENT!
I am a CITY GUY, maybe we should have two sets of laws, one for the city living souls, another for the country-wild-200-miles-the-next-town situation. Did you ever take that in consideration?
Because for my understanding, nobody is complaining for a manslaughter in the back roads of Montana. All these killings come from SCHOOLS, POST OFFICES, WALMART, where a lot of people (women, children) frequent; where a POLICE oversight is established, and we don''t need your guns.
In the case of Walmart, I don''t see how you can defend the happening: they were no guns, would have been a fight, maybe some black eyes, but that''s it. No lives would have been lost.
Don''t tell me that in order to defend your point you will defend what happened at Walmart!!!
The least you should say is that even in the best of Societies, sometimes, excesses happen, excesses that we, opf course, deplore.

[yeswedid]

There is nothing wrong with bringing a gun into a toy store!!!

Posted by RushLimbaug4 at 07:46 PM : Nov 28, 2008
-----------------------------------
Are you for real dude??

[incog-nito]

Finally, a story with a good ending.

[deckardbr]

Nobody died in Iraq, but two people died at Wal-Mart and Toys R Us. Cool.

[truthrocks1]

The least you should say is that even in the best of Societies, sometimes, excesses happen, excesses that we, of course, deplore.
by Caligola





Very true. The overwhelming vast majority of gun owners are collectors, sportsmen, and Americans who have them for legal self defense.

Ted Kennedy''s car has killed more people than my guns!

As is always the case, criminals will use rights freely exercised by law abiding citizens and pervert them for their sick amusement.

The solution in my opinion is to punish the criminals

Guns are inanimate objects, no more capable of killing by themselves than a car can drive drunk.

People are the issue, we dont allow bigots to tell us who can vote, or rapists to tell us what a woman should wear or where she can feel safe.

This is our country, it belongs to people who work hard and deserve to enjoy the liberties men and women better than us fought and died for.

Dont sell out our liberties for a very false sense of security simply because blaming a "thing" is easier than punishing the 1% of people that are causing the problems.

Politicians are used car salesmen with law degrees, they have neither the intellect or the sense of what real America is all about, tell them to work for their pay and solve the problem by going after the bad guys, not chunks of metal that are our only means to defens ourselves from these animals, and by that I mean crooks and politicians!

[truthrocks1]

gun nuts kill each other but nobody else - I''''m okey dokey fine with it.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by Centerfall94


Wasnt gun nuts, but rather black kids. So your saying blacks are responsible and should kill themselves off?

Wow.

The first gun laws in this nation were meant to keep guns from blacks, so by your reasoning thats a good idea.

Interesting how selective the left can be on who can have rights, often they do not extend those rights to minorities,women, children, the disabled.

Kinda like the nazi''s.

huh

[deckardbr]

Yellow balloons, cheesecake spread on pigeons, oceans without cardboard circles, never enough tree sap, children singing psychiatric disorders, quarterbacks under wraps, tires screeching, lemon drops melting in the Sudan, a spaceship descending, excrement on Golden Pond, dried raisins on the windshield, money dripping with love, sadness, joy, warm beer on the furnace aging, fellowship, flies on their eyes, sandpaper underwear; peace. How am I doing, morphndol3?

[truthrocks1]

A gun is NOT a good defensive weapon. It is a very good tool for commiting murder, however. He who shoots first (the unprovoked attacker) usually "wins".


The good news, however, is that gun nutz kill themselves or their own gun-nutz family and gun-nutz friends or are killed by someone else with their own gun much more often then they "defend themselves" with their guns. So, the actualy number of gun nutz in this country is steadily decreasing.

Posted by IDNNSG




* Guns used 2.5 million times a year in self-defense. Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year -- or about 6,850 times a day.7 This means that each year, firearms are used more than 60 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.8

* Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns to defend themselves every year, the overwhelming majority merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers. Less than 8% of the time, a citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker.9


By gun nuts I assume you mean women defending themselves from rape?

Isnt rape a violent crime?

Wonder why you want to disarm women defending themselves from rapists?

Hmmmmmmm, hope the ladies in your neighborhood lock their doors real tight.

* As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse.10

[opedanderson]

God Bless America

[tiredofthebs]

Guns kill. Guns kill.Guns kill.Guns kill.Guns kill.Guns kill.Guns kill.Guns kill.Guns kill.Guns kill.Guns kill. Guns kill. Guns kill. Guns kill. Guns kill. Guns kill.Guns kill. Guns kill.Guns kill. Guns kill.Guns kill.Guns kill. Yes they do.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by Hitoyou1 at 08:54 PM : Nov 28, 2008


No, PEOPLE DO! A gun is PERFECTLY SAFE if it is not touched by an idiot.

[sincity_q]

Given the choice, I''d trust a loaded gun over a human moron any day.

[truthrocks1]

truthrocks1: And pencils spell words. Yes they do, more than you can. SCUM BAG.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by Hitoyou1
You are am IDIOT. I have a blog that says what I think of people like you. I can''''t say what you are on here, But I can on my blog and I DO. Get a life you SCUM BAG.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by Hitoyou1





HAHAHAHA, Big surprise, you have a blog! HAHAHAHA, what a ******.

Guess what mongoloid, I have a Constitution and it says something about people like you, its under TREASON.

You dont like, get the F out! I hear India is nice these days;0)

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Bone smokers like you always get violent and dumb once the TRUTH ans facts are posted, your so driven by false ego you cant just admit that your dumb and then attempt to educate yourself.

You are a violent reactionary, the type that is prone to killing and rape.

Maybe thats why you hate guns, you cant own one because you cant pass a back-ground check!

HAHAHAHAHAHA

[truthrocks1]

The sole purpose of a gun is to KILL. It isn''''t used for anything else.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by erasmus81





Okay. Yep most guns are designed to kill, like cars are designed to drive, not sure I''m following?

Were you talking about the 2.5 million times a year the "killing machines" defend Americans from criminals?

The 200,000 times a year women defend themselves from sexual assault?

If a device designed to kill is also one that prevents murder and rape, then I hope they design one thats even more of a "killer" so it can defend more innocents.

[truthrocks1]

People choose to do right because they know and appreciate what it means to be loved.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by cbsfan7331





Well put. There are always those (usually the violent anti-gun types) who come on here blaming inanimate objects, the real discussion should be why this is happening, not the methods that statistically do not support the racist anti-gunners arguments.

Is it a lack of a sense of community? I would think that in the information age we would feel closer, but the exact opposite has happened, we are now more than ever split down the middle.

[erasmus81]

If we want this cycle to end, people better stop abusing and neglecting their children.

For everyone''''s sake, love your children and teach them right from wrong.

Posted by cbsfan7331 at 09:11 PM : Nov 28, 2008

It''s not going to happen. Something is seriously wrong. Parents aren''t what they used to be. I think aliens have taken over their bodies.

[erasmus81]

Okay. Yep most guns are designed to kill, like cars are designed to drive, not sure I''''m following?

Posted by truthrocks1 at 09:19 PM : Nov 28, 2008

I wouldn''t expect a gun lover to get it. Gun lovers are obsessed with their guns and don''t WANT to get it. God forbid someone should take away their itty bitty guns.

If someone would have shot the person that came up with "The Right to Bear Arms" your country wouldn''t be in the state it is now.

I feel sorry for you Americans that feel that all your problems are solved with a gun. What a way to live.

I''m glad I''m not an American. I like to be able to walk down the street without living in fear.

[yeswedid]

It''''s not going to happen. Something is seriously wrong. Parents aren''''t what they used to be. I think aliens have taken over their bodies.

Posted by erasmus81 at 09:23 PM : Nov 28, 2008
--------------------------------
I try to be a good mom with my children, but I''ve seen some pretty pi$$ poor excuses for parents myself.

[apndrgn]

This is like the plot in Enemy of the State. Its kind of a two lasers cancel each other deal.
I think most of the comments here would cancel each other the same way.. Where was Buzz Lightyear during all this? I''ll bet he pulled the Dean maneuver.

[apndrgn]

who wouldn''t want to be labeled after Amerigo Vespucci?

[apndrgn]

who wouldn''t want to be labeled after Amerigo Vespucci?

[barbaram99]

I am an American that live in gun free home. I alway have. True the constutions said we have the right to bear arms but not everyone should bear arms. It is true guns don''t kill as it is the person who does. I asked a person what would happen if yer gun was taken from ye. He said he build one. I don''t own one as I am legally blind.

[truthrocks1]

If someone would have shot the person that came up with "The Right to Bear Arms" your country wouldn''''t be in the state it is now.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by erasmus81





Youre right. We wouldnt have a country. Our Founding Fathers gave us the right to keep and bear arms because they knew a free people is an armed people.

They were remarkable men, who also knew that all gov''t is flawed, the surest symptom of tyranny is to disarm its citizens,

When people fear their gov;t there is tyranny, when gov''t fears its people there is liberty.

As an American I do not expect you to understand, you dont have it, until you are willing to fight for it, it will never mean anything to you.

Your comments are appreciated though, its always interesting/sad to see how "subjects" think and live.