Autoworkers Making $70 An Hour? Not Really

New Republic: Debunking The Myth Of The Exceedingly Well Paid U.S. Autoworker

(The New Republic)  This column was written by Jonathan Cohn.

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If you've been following the auto industry's crisis, then you've probably read or heard a lot about overpaid American autoworkers--in particular, the fact that the average hourly employee of the Big Three makes $70 per hour.

That's an awful lot of money. Seventy dollars an hour in wages works out to almost $150,000 a year in gross income, if you assume a forty-hour work week. Is it any wonder the Big Three are in trouble? And with auto workers making so much, why should taxpayers--many of whom make far less--finance a plan to bail them out?

Well, here's one reason: The figure is wildly misleading.

Let's start with the fact that it's not $70 per hour in wages. According to Kristin Dziczek of the Center for Automative Research--who was my primary source for the figures you are about to read--average wages for workers at Chrysler, Ford, and General Motors were just $28 per hour as of 2007. That works out to a little less than $60,000 a year in gross income--hardly outrageous, particularly when you consider the physical demands of automobile assembly work and the skills most workers must acquire over the course of their careers.

More important, and contrary to what you may have heard, the wages aren't that much bigger than what Honda, Toyota, and other foreign manufacturers pay employees in their U.S. factories. While we can't be sure precisely how much those workers make, because the companies don't make the information public, the best estimates suggests the corresponding 2007 figure for these "transplants"--as the foreign-owned factories are known--was somewhere between $20 and $26 per hour, and most likely around $24 or $25. That would put average worker's annual salary at $52,000 a year.

So the "wage gap," per se, has been a lot smaller than you've heard. And this is no accident. If the transplants paid their employees far less than what the Big Three pay their unionized workers, the United Auto Workers would have a much better shot of organizing the transplants' factories. Those factories remain non-unionized and management very much wants to keep it that way.

But then what's the source of that $70 hourly figure? It didn't come out of thin air. Analysts came up with it by including the cost of all employer-provided benefits--namely, health insurance and pensions--and then dividing by the number of workers. The result, they found, was that benefits for Big Three cost about $42 per hour, per employee. Add that to the wages--again, $28 per hour--and you get the $70 figure. Voila.

Except ... notice something weird about this calculation? It's not as if each active worker is getting health benefits and pensions worth $42 per hour. That would come to nearly twice his or her wages. (Talk about gold-plated coverage!) Instead, each active worker is getting benefits equal only to a fraction of that--probably around $10 per hour, according to estimates from the International Motor Vehicle Program. The number only gets to $70 an hour if you include the cost of benefits for retirees--in other words, the cost of benefits for other people. One of the few people to grasp this was Portfolio.com's Felix Salmon. As he noted friday, the claim that workers are getting $70 an hour in compensation is just "not true."

Of course, the cost of benefits for those retirees--you may have heard people refer to them as "legacy costs"--do represent an extra cost burden that only the Big Three shoulder. And, yes, it makes it difficult for the Big Three to compete with foreign-owned automakers that don't have to pay the same costs. But don't forget why those costs are so high. While the transplants don't offer the same kind of benefits that the Big Three do, the main reason for their present cost advantage is that they just don't have many retirees.

The first foreign-owned plants didn't start up here until the 1980s; many of the existing ones came well after that. As of a year ago, Toyota's entire U.S. operation had less than 1,000 retirees. Compare that to a company like General Motors, which has been around for more than a century and which supports literally hundreds of thousands of former workers and spouses. As you might expect, many of these have the sorts of advanced medical problems you expect from people to develop in old age. And, it should go without saying, those conditions cost a ton of money to treat.

To be sure, we've known about these demographics for a while. Management and labor in Detroit should have figured out a solution it long ago. But while the Big Three were late in addressing this problem, they did address it eventually.

Notice how, in this article, I've constantly referred to 2007 figures? There's a good reason. In 2007, the Big Three signed a breakthrough contract with the United Auto Workers (UAW) designed, once and for all, to eliminate the compensation gap between domestic and foreign automakers in the U.S.

The agreement sought to do so, first, by creating a private trust for financing future retiree benefits--effectively removing that burden from the companies' books. The auto companies agreed to deposit start-up money in the fund; after that, however, it would be up to the unions to manage the money. And it was widely understood that, given the realities of investment returns and health care economics, over time retiree health benefits would likely become less generous.

In addition, management and labor agreed to change health benefits for all workers, active or retired, so that the coverage looked more like the policies most people have today, complete with co-payments and deductibles. The new UAW agreement also changed the salary structure, by creating a two-tiered wage system. Under this new arrangement, the salary scale for newly hired workers would be lower than the salary scale for existing workers.

One can debate the propriety and wisdom of these steps; two-tiered wage structures, in particular, raise various ethical concerns. But one thing is certain: It was a radical change that promised to make Detroit far more competitive. If carried out as planned, by 2010--the final year of this existing contract--total compensation for the average UAW worker would actually be less than total compensation for the average non-unionized worker at a transplant factory. The only problem is that it will be several years before these gains show up on the bottom line--years the industry probably won't have if it doesn't get financial assistance from the government.

Make no mistake: The argument over a proposed rescue package is complicated, in no small part because over the years both management and labor made some truly awful decisions while postponing the inevitable reckoning with economic reality. And even if the government does provide money, it's a tough call whether restructuring should proceed with or without a formal bankruptcy filing. Either way, yet more downsizing is inevitable.

But the next time you hear somebody say the unions have to make serious salary and benefit concessions, keep in mind that they already have--enough to keep the companies competitive, if only they can survive this crisis.

[danielle_mom]

It cost the big 3 $70 /hour for their employees. The average hourly wage is $25/hour with $10/hour for benefits.

Where as minimum wage is $10.

[danielle_mom]

I mean 55 and 20.

[danielle_mom]

I do laugh at the physical demand. The average military person makes in the $30 to $40K a year range, but they are in better physical shape. I am not against the workers that work for the UAW, I am against the UAW pushing for minimum wage increases and not allowing companies run their business with speed.

They require non-union members pay union dues and not allowed to vote. There are several injustices that unions agreements force upon the american public.

[ramos937]

The writer ignores the fact that the $70 represents UAW weighted wage per hour. This represents the worker''s regular wage, employee taxes, health benefits, retirement benefits, etc. The non union weighted wage per hour is somewhere around $48 per hour.

Also, the American Honda/Toyota/Volkswagen/etc folks are doing just fine financially whereas the big 3 have to go whinning to DC. Why is that?

[spinproof]

The best cure for the American Automobile Industry is to make cars people want to buy.

[craigh9]

No matter how you slice the issue the answer becomes crystal clear - MISMANAGEMENT. The big 3 gave away the farm in terms of salaries/benefits and the actual long term costs associated with those decisions. They negelected to look down the road to see what expenses were piling up - and relied WAY TOO heavily on investment returns funding the retirement system.
Mismanagement is the root cause and until said "management" provides a clear, attainable plan for correction of the mess they have created then assistance should not be provided.

[craigh9]

The other issue is the top heavy management design
A MODERN PARABLE . . PART 1

A Japanese company (Toyota) and an American company (Ford) decided to have a rowing race on the Missouri River . Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.

On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.

The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action.

Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 8 people steering and 1 person rowing.

Feeling a deeper study was in order, American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion.

They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.

Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team''s management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 3 area steering superintendents, and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.

[craigh9]

PART 2

They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 1 person rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the ''Rowing Team Quality First Program,'' with meetings, dinners, and free pens for the rower. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes, and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses.

The next year the Japanese won by two miles.

Humiliated, the American management laid off the rower for poor performance, halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses and the next year''s racing team was out-sourced to India .

The End.

Here''''s something else to think about:

Ford has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US , claiming they can''t make money paying American wages.

TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US. The last quarter''s results:

TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.

Ford folks are still scratching their heads.

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IF THIS WEREN''T TRUE, IT MIGHT BE FUNNY !




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[hitoyou1]

They sure are, and that is whay a $25.000.00 car cost 50,000.00 and that is why peope are buying Japan Auto, That is why the AUTOMAKERS need to shut down.

[bobnjersey]

[They sure are, and that is whay a $25.000.00 car cost 50,000.00 and that is why peope are buying Japan Auto, That is why the AUTOMAKERS need to shut down.]
[Posted by Hitoyou1 at 02:52 PM : Nov 24, 2008]

us autoworkers are not making $70/hr. did you read the story? it''s all spelled out above with letters and spaces strategically placed to convey meaning.

the uaw workers wage is $28/hr ... compared to the average of $24/hr for a non union worker for toyota, honda, etc.

all the other ''per capita'' charges relate to compensation and benefits being paid to retirees ... for which the japanese have very few within their us worker ranks ... and the us manufacturers have hundereds of thousands after being in business for nearly a hundred years.

big 3 and uaw just agreed to shift the burden for retiree benefits to the union last year ... and off the back of the manufacturers.

this is why the american auto manufacturers are not currently competitive w/ the japanese.

[cbs_oliver]

Good article.

Nice to see some first class journalism.

[voidmaster-2009]

Those labor costs need to be cut now, not in a year or two as planned. And of course, if planned to happen in a year or two, it will likely be two three before it has an impact. None of which lessens the fact that it needs to happen now.

Ultimately, however, it still comes down to another fact. Detroit makes products that are inferior and yet still grossly overprices. It would not matter if the unions agreed to work for free for the next two years. As long as issues with product quality and price remain, Detroit *is* going to go out of business.

[cash2009]

$70 an hour? Wow thats alot, only if the cars reflected the quality. I wonder how much Toyota pays people to do things? I read that these companies have more unclaimed money then any other companay source http://blog.foundmoney.com perhaps if they just managed their finances better they could be better of
Like spinproof already said: "The best cure for the American Automobile Industry is to make cars people want to buy. " and I agree with that.

[cash2009]

No matter how much money they make or not make, like spinproof already said "The best cure for the American Automobile Industry is to make cars people want to buy. " I read on a blog http://blog.foundmoney.com once that if they managed their finances and not just plain loose money they would be better off. I agree!

[secundus2]

Everybody in the auto industry''s Big Three (from top management to workers on the line) is overpaid.

They''ve lost market share, they have too many dealers, they have too many brands and too many models, and they have fought fuel-efficiency for years.

They should make top dollar only for top performance

[grigjd3]

So what this implies is that the problem with the big three isn''t wages but everything the big three does wrong - like producing cars and trucks that require vastly more maintenance over time, refusing to admit the market is going to change favoring more fuel efficient cars, hobbling themselves with inefficiently oversized management and executive sections of their companies and blowing money on advertising gimicks that don''t increase sales and do little to change the image Americans have of the very cars made here in America. I have no problem with the average American auto worker. I have a problem with the executives of these companies which have become lazy and gotten so used to wealth that they bask in fifteen million dollar a year compensation while demanding the American taxpayer cough up twenty-five billion to ensure their way of life. It''s terrible that the top people at these companies have done so much to destroy the industry and put people out of jobs and I don''t want a penny of my tax dollars to pay their ridiculous rates of compensation.

[hitoyou1]

Money is money. They get more than they should. $70.00 is about right. I worked for the UAW, they don''t want the people to know what they make. I had a math teacher onec and he told me, you can do anything with numbers. He must wouk for the big 3 are Congress, because they can do anything with numbers..

[hitoyou1]

[They sure are, and that is whay a $25.000.00 car cost 50,000.00 and that is why peope are buying Japan Auto, That is why the AUTOMAKERS need to shut down.]
[Posted by Hitoyou1 at 02:52 PM : Nov 24, 2008]

us autoworkers are not making $70/hr. did you read the story? it''''s all spelled out above with letters and spaces strategically placed to convey meaning.

the uaw workers wage is $28/hr ... compared to the average of $24/hr for a non union worker for toyota, honda, etc.

all the other ''''per capita'''' charges relate to compensation and benefits being paid to retirees ... for which the japanese have very few within their us worker ranks ... and the us manufacturers have hundereds of thousands after being in business for nearly a hundred years.

big 3 and uaw just agreed to shift the burden for retiree benefits to the union last year ... and off the back of the manufacturers.

this is why the american auto manufacturers are not currently competitive w/ the japanese.



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Posted by bobnjersey at 03:34 PM : Nov 24, 2008

Do you belive every thing some paid reporter wrights/ I hope not. You seam to be smarter then that.

[indiana891]

So after UAW workers pay their union dues (well into retirement,) they are making less than Honda and Toyota employees per hour???

[hitoyou1]

If you coula take the UAW wage out of the cost of a car, the car would be 1/2 if not more off of the sticker. A $60,000.00 car would cost around $25,000.00. Down with the UAW, over paid. and the guiy who said they where skilled, all I can say to that is, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[neptunebob-2009]

Youre right about the physical demands: On one clip, I saw one worker putting lug nuts on and playing with his shorts at the same time. It takes real dexterity to do that!

[cbs_oliver]

Seems there are some posters who don''t care about facts.

They just want to see American workers driven down.

They are happy to make stuff up to that end.

Too bad.

[hotwitch]

The writer contradicts himself in the article:

"In 2007, the Big Three signed a breakthrough contract with the United Auto Workers (UAW) designed, once and for all, to eliminate the compensation gap between domestic and foreign automakers in the U.S. "

Which is it? First the writer claims the UAW workers make a mere pittance over the Toy-Honda workers. In the past, UAW workers made boatloads of cash, with benefits, overtime, retroactive increases; now that time''s over, it was good while it lasted.

[teachabc1]

First of all... A lot of UAW workers are skilled workers. Do you know how much schooling it takes to be a tool and die maker? It is eqivalent to a college education. And, from some of the responses posted, that is more education than some of you have! I''m a school teacher and I know how it is to always be defending my job. If you think it is so easy than try it. People always think it is greener on the other side. Auto workers do NOT make $70 an hour!!! That is a fact! As I tell my first graders, if you don''t understand something reread it. I think some of you need to reread the facts above. I wonder if some of you were sleeping during spelling class... "once" is not spelled onec and "work" is not spelled wouk! How much do you make at your job with such poor basic skills? It is really sad that people don''t realize that for every 1 auto worker that is lost, an additional 10 unrelated auto jobs are also lost. I sure hope the people that trash the auto industry and don''t realize the significance of this crisis ARE one of those 10 additional workers. Maybe then you will realize the importance of American manufacturing. This is not just a UAW problem, but a problem that will touch all Americans! This could become another 1929!!! Those of trash talking against the bailout/loan... could you live with that? I didn''t think so!

[bjcone8559]

Auto makers put the ''republican-like'' spin on the numbers in hopes of breaking the union. They would like nothing more than to pay $7-$8 per hour. Workers be dammmmed! Middle class be dammmmed! It''s the republican way!

[rational_1]

''But the next time you hear somebody say the unions have to make serious salary and benefit concessions, keep in mind that they already have--enough to keep the companies competitive, if only they can survive this crisis.''

Interesting analysis in assigning the $70/hr number to legacy costs - but that''s still a problem that the UAW and car manufacturers allowed to happen all on their own. Why should my tax money be used to correct their shortsightedness? If they didn''t see this problem developing over the last few DECADES, how much confidence is this supposed to instill in me regarding their abilities to right the ship with my tax money? Sorry Cohen, you may have explained the problem in more detail, but done nothing to make me any more confident in giving the car companies my money.

[teachabc1]

Boy, it used to be that companies were congratulated for helping their retirees that gave their life to a company. Now, they are looked down upon. The UAW have been making concessions over the years and continue to do so. But, when people have their mind set - they''re set. You just won''t be able to change them - even when the facts hit them in the face!
For thos of you that don''t want any of your tax dollars going toward a LOAN, that''s fine. Just be ready to pay higher local, city and federal taxes. You are going to have to help recoup all the money those goverments loose when the Big 3 close up their factories. Are you ready for that? I guess people just don''t get it?

[jsainwi]

I worked at Delco Electronics before it was spun off into Delphi. A news burp at that time mentioned that the top 100 execs at Delphi would make $177 million.
(do the math...)
Delphi''s stock price went from $17-20/share down to $.024.
Those guys certainly earned their money, didn''t they?
Bashing the UAW for making sure their members were paid a very nice middle class wage may make nice headlines, but the real culprits always has been upper management.

[sanfelz]

Other corporations, such as the former Bell companies, have ''legacy'' costs and seem to do just fine. The problem is not the workers but decisions of management and the credit crunch.
Does anyone really believe that if costs are less the prices of cars will go down. Think of all the prices increases attributed to the high price of gasoline and diesel fuel. The increased prices of food and deliveries remain even though the cost of fuel has halved from its high. It would be the same with auto worker wages and benefits.

[teachabc1]

"TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US." The last quarter''''s results:

Get the facts... I guess I would to if I got land for FREE or for such a minimal price that the Big 3 could only dream about. Did you know that they get HUGE tax breaks and pay no state and local taxes for up to 10 years sometimes. I thought we won WWII??

[xzyw22]

How come nobody ever discusses that other countries protect their manufacturing base and we are willing to throw are base away. I read in a article that GM has 13% of the 1.3 billion Chinese market which leads that nation. The article asked Chinese people why they like American cars and they stated LUXURY! The stupid American people continue to say junk or not quality-what a laugh. Yes I am for the bailout because a company that can pay local/state/federal taxes like GM has for 100 years deserves it. Senator Shelby in Alabama forgets that his transplants got tax breaks for 10 years just to lure these companies there.

[rocketjl]

I have watched the auto industry and their unions do damage to this country for over thirty years. Sugar coat all you want. A TV ad yesterday offered to drop $12,000 off an auto price, if we buy soon. Give me a break. Union strike funds pay striking workers a hefty sum, so they don''t hurt when they are on strike - demanding more. A large part of America lives on $7/$8 and hour.

[teachabc1]

Are you kidding me? I don''t know where you live, but if I made $7.oo or $8.00 dollars an hour I could not support myself or my kids. They pay more at McDonald''s!!! Get real! Some people just don''t get it! This is not sugar coating it. Let''s just let the whole American manufacturing industry go down the toilet and see where our country is then. If you think the economy is bad now... you haven''t seen anything!!! I hope we never have another World War, because it would be open season on America! (If you don''t remember...during WWII factories were used for the war effort.)

[rjs1955]

So this article basically reveals even more the need for European-style (meaning Germany in particular)healthcare & pension programs. They have been dealing with an older population demographic for a long time and have figurd out excellent systems that do not tax the public to death. I know, I was a prt of it for many years....

[xzyw22]

To rocketjl: First of all I guess you condone minimum wage jobs with no benefits in this country. Lets let the goverment pay for those people with my taxes. How about I make you a deal. We post our names-addresses-phone numbers so everbody know''s who we are and who is telling the truth to the American people. Lets put are wages-time off-401k company match-health care benefit package so we can compare it. If anybody else has the courage they might want to list their employer and their package also. Lets see who is overpaid and who is not. Do I have any takers! Dan

[gopack443]

Still a lot of money for unskilled factory workers

[xzyw22]

Reply to goback443/rocketjl: I guess you dont want to take me up on my offer either about revealing information about ourselves and discussing wage and benefit packages so America can tell who is telling the truth. Are you afraid that your neighbor might see what you make and say holy cow he dont deserve that!I guess everybody is Chicken- I am waiting for takers. Dan

[bloogirl-2009]

i worked at one of the "transplants" for several years. i made a good wage - but i earned every dime of it. some of the big talkers here need to go work on an assembly line for a few months and see just how it is. ''unskilled'' factory workers? you have no idea of what you are talking about. try walking in and picking up the tools and put that car together. the "skill" levels you have to attain is much greater than what you may think. get the facts before you start putting people down.

[ozarkbard]

The workers in the local chicken plants make less then $10/hour.. and I bet they work a lot harder.

Is driving a car more important then eating?

Every time I see a news clip of auto workers on TV, it''s someone with a big gut and a double chin.. obviously the work isn''t as hard as some lead us to believe.

Bottom line, if you make more then $20/hour.. I DON''T FEEL SORRY FOR YOU!!!!!

[billpl-2009]

that''s an easy to fix.

have the big three file bankruptcy.
disband the UAW
have the government assume all pension debt.
have the government impose a surcharge on ALL vehicles sold in the US
both foreign and domestic

that way the old workers all get all their benefits,
the new workers get a new deal
and the American automotive market playing field becomes level
everyone wins!!!

except the UAW
...F___ them

[nycsense]

''''unskilled'''' factory workers? you have no idea of what you are talking about. try walking in and picking up the tools and put that car together. the "skill" levels you have to attain is much greater than what you may think."

Posted by bloogirl

Ok, so you learn how to use tools to put a car together, but the fact still remains that a person doesn''t go to school to learn that "skill". ANYBODY can learn that skill, especially someone with only an 8th grade education, and they learn it on the job. So, this person deserves to make as much as a someone with a college degree? The misconception shared by people like this is that hard, manual labor deserves a high salary. No, I don''t think so, and neither do these companies. That''s why a lot of them end up moving their operations to Mexico or India, where people are happy to just be working. Then the overpaid "ditch-diggers" act shocked and surprised when their company makes the move. Maybe these people should have taken a course in economics with their salary to realize that the gravy train would soon end.

[enriquecaliente]

Don''t hate the unions, hate the management, they''re the ones who agreed to the contracts in the first place. It''s all part of free enterprise. Without unions, the people who own the companies would use and abuse the workers. I think some of you all should read your history and see why unions came about. They are a necessary evil, just like the corporate management that they deal with. Someone explain to me how one man is worth 32 million dollars. That''s the amount of pay one CEO got.. The CEO of Chrysler, was fired from Home Depot because during his watch the price of their stock went down. And they paid him millions to leave, and Chrysler hired him. Give me a break.

[gmancubfan]

Most companies do not provide pensions; they are a relic of the past when companies and their employees had an implied understanding of a life-time relationship. Pensions although they still exist in certain government employment circles, teaching and some very large corporations, have gone bye bye. I am not advocating that the atuo industry get rid of pensions, but the recipients need to understand that pensions are not an entitlement. We all have to do with less. Perhaps a 25 hour maximum work week would be in order until thngs get better, but please no government bailout unless some strong unbreakable strings are attached as to how they will use our money.

[nycsense]

enriquecalie,

Unions are obsolete. The are a numerous labor laws now that simply don''t allow companies to abuse their workers. Unions are what they are....a legalized form of Mafia with their hands in everyone''s pockets. The management at these companies are people trying to do the best job they can, with the situations they are into by unions. If anything wreaks of socialism, unions would be it. Everyone gets a raise at the same time (through contract negotiations), no matter how hard or how little you work. What this creates is the type of mentality that came about in the old USSR. People were paid the same no matter how hard or how little they worked, "so what''s the point in working hard?". Then the quality suffers and the company goes down the drain. In Japan, they don''t have that problem. Why? No unions.

[autoretiree]

Consider autoworkers and especially reflect on the struggling helpless auto retirees who were given broken promises at retirement. Retirees are being betrayed by the corporations, Washington, media and primarily by their own befuddled union officials who have used their meager pensions and critical retirement benefits as the big sacrifice.

The following historic links are for your information.

UAW OFFICIALS BETRAY AUTO WORKERS [2007]...
http://unionreview.com/insights-analysis-uaw-betrays-autoworkers

VICTOR REUTHER SPEECH 50TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE UAW FLINT RALLY [1987]...
http://westfallmike.tripod.com/Page12.htm

MIKE WESTFALL SPEECH 50TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE UAW FLINT RALLY [1987]...
http://westfallmike.tripod.com/Page11.htm

HISTORIC UAW LEADER SPEAKS OUT FOR RETIREES AND WORKERS [2007]%u2026
http://michaelwestfall.tripod.com/id110.html

EASTERN ECONOMIC MANUFACTURING SPEECH [1985] %u2026
http://westfallmike.tripod.com/Page14.htm

ROGER & ME %u2013FLINT CONTROVERSY [1990]%u2026
http://westfallmike.tripod.com/Page10.htm

ARCHIVES AND ADDITIONAL INFORMATION [1976-2008]%u2026

http://www.umflint.edu/library/archives/westfall.htm

http://michaelwestfall.tripod.com/id50.html

http://westfallmike.tripod.com/

http://www.monroelabor.org/links.html

[teachabc1]

Unions are not obsolete!!!! Where do you people get your information??? I am a union teacher and proud of it. I take great offense to being compared to a form of a legalized mafia!!!! As an educator with a master''s degree, it kills me to see how ridiculous some of these responses are. Such unfounded stereotypes (big gut and double chin)!!! I guess some of you think only college educated people deserve to make a good wage and support their families. I can tell you that every child that walks through my classroom door, won''t go to college for one reason or another. Trades and manufacturing jobs are a must for those individuals. Just because you attend a four year institution doesn''t mean YOU deserve to make more than someone else!!!! For all I know, you might have been partying every night and too hung over to attend class. But, then again you did go to college!

[mastersgts]

I find this most interesting. The big 3 get grilled about private jets and plans etc, and the most EACH asked for was 8 billion. Just 2 days ago, CITI gets 25 billion, did anyone ask if their executives fly in private jets? Did anyone see any "going forward" plans? The Auto industry asks for 25 billion and congress has a heart attack. A bank doesnt do any thing and gets 25 billion without a question. I wonder who congress likes: Could it be big corporate banks? Who is in charge of congress? Could it be democrats? Guess we are seeing change already, I feel so much better already.

[mastersgts]

The Government example..Bush lied, cost us trillions, Posted by MrNrgmizer

Ummmmmm President Bush did not lie, he used the same intelligence that the libotards GAVE him. Guess this is part of the change promised too. Forget what you said if it does not fit your purpose.
I just love the not-my-president elect saying fiscal restraint but we will have to spend another 700 billion... OOOppppsssssiii guess you wont get that tax cut, and OH Yeah I forgot to tell you ...... your tax rate just doubled. Dont you just love change!!!

[nycsense]

Trades and manufacturing jobs are a must for those individuals. Just because you attend a four year institution doesn''''t mean YOU deserve to make more than someone else!!!! For all I know, you might have been partying every night and too hung over to attend class. But, then again you did go to college!

Posted by teachabc1

Actually, going to college does entitle a person to make more than a manual laborer, if they''re good at what they do. That''s what we go for, a better life and a real career. When I went to college I didn''t get drunk every night because I wasn''t studying to be a stock broker. I feel bad for you because you''re a teacher and you deserve better pay and teachers shouldn''t require a union to get what they need. That''s a shame. I still feel that most unions are ruining this country.

[teachabc1]

It is always easier to criticize when you are not the starting quarterback. We need to stop pointing fingers and figure out how to solve the real issue...which is how we are going to save millions of American jobs and keep our country from going into another depression!